01:26:59 rehrar: wen sarang CCS update? There is supposed to be one once a month. I might have missed it as I am rarely on reddditt 01:27:24 nioc: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/nxkyoi/update_on_triptych_multisig_proposal/ 01:28:28 the all knowing selsta :D 01:29:44 posted 8hrs ago so maybe a response to my earlier comment in -markets yet no communication on IRC (I am not on freenode) 01:29:55 COMMUNICATION PLEASE 01:31:37 rehrar: yep please also comment them on the ccs issue, not everyone looks at reddit 01:31:46 ccs merge request* 01:33:16 Will do. 01:33:19 nioc: I miss you man. 01:35:11 (350/250)*25.3=35.4 01:35:18 selsta: done 01:35:29 35.4-25.3=10.1 01:35:33 Also, don't know if you heard, but Matrix is expecting the bridge release on Monday 01:35:42 did not hear it 01:35:43 !tip sarang 10.1 01:35:58 sweep_all sarang 01:36:10 rehrar: there are 52 Mondays per year 01:36:44 this upcoming Monday :P 01:37:06 ™ 01:38:13 update: sarang did work :D 01:38:18 good that's what we wanted done :) 01:39:17 actually we want more work done 01:39:20 please help 07:53:23 geonic: I received the notification for your comment but I can't respond to it on reddit for some reason so I can respond to it here. 07:53:56 Cypher Stack is indeed still the buffer of volatility here. The contract will continue to completion regardless of whether a second round of funding goes up or not. 07:54:28 I will take the hit of all losses personally. 07:54:43 Sarang's salary and portion of the money will remain unaffected. 07:55:32 In the event that he opened this proposal himself, depending on the timing of delivery and when it was taken out, he would have dealt with the losses himself and taken the hit, probably affecting his desire to continue. 07:56:38 But, since I'll be down money, I may focus efforts on other contracts that are a bit more stable for a while, while I rebuild my funds to a point where I can take on more risky and volatile projects like Monero again, which means a pause in XMR research work. 07:56:53 All of this is AFTER the current contract is completed, of course. That hasn't changed. 07:57:44 And goodness if you couldn't be any more passive aggressive with your first sentence. 07:59:01 If you have any more questions I'm happy to answer them. 08:00:55 Do you know what all channels have migrated to libera.chat yet? 08:02:10 We have the channel equivalents on libera chat, and all are controlled by core so it's a good start. I'd say most discussion is happening here these days. 08:04:19 Awesome, thanks 08:13:06 Oh, one final thing to say, which I just said on the reddit. 08:13:48 If we were to open a second proposal to make up the difference, any surplus that results from an unexpected pump can be put elsewhere. Like the Haveno project. 11:42:24 why havent salaries been hedged ? 11:42:32 did core niot pay out in advance ? 11:43:51 But, since I'll be down money, I may focus efforts on other contracts that are a bit more stable for a while, while I rebuild my funds to a point where I can take on more risky and volatile projects like Monero again, which means a pause in XMR research work -> maybe we should start to overthink that relationship in general if thats what we can expect 11:44:10 what volatile about xmr lol? every project is volatile if you dont hedge your salaries 13:50:24 yeah it just sounds like the payout should have been sooner. there were no trust issues here afaik 13:50:37 i.e., we had to wait to see the value of the work performed 13:50:51 kinda similar to how the audit ccs's have gone 13:55:41 i.e., we didn't have to wait to see the value of the work performed. thats what i meant. 14:04:13 yeah it seems thats the issue here, besides rehar exactly knowing this would be a possibility and no problem at all. maybe the assumption was made that the 10% buffer was enough, which it wasnt. 14:04:50 indeed. 14:05:36 i mean, i would support a general .... policy, wherein first time contributors are expected to jump through the following hoops 14:06:00 1. contribute something for free, to demonstrate ability. doesn't have to be much, but a PR here, a review there, etc 14:06:14 2. put in a CCS and expect payout only when tasks are complete 14:06:33 and then from there, any further CCS's have a much looser arrangement re: completion and payout 14:06:42 which can be specifically detailed in the CCS 14:06:47 thats how its done for quite some time "inofficially" imo 14:06:59 and then its up to the community to fund these proposals with these specifics 14:07:01 right 14:07:40 and if this specific "prepay" is present and there's some disagreement during the initial CCS, then it gets modified 14:07:56 and its therefore observed that the contributor is still in phase 2 14:08:30 i mean, there's always a risk that a phase 3 contributor takes the money and runs 14:09:00 CCS using a stablecoin once XMR has been raised isn't a fruitless idea. 14:09:22 i guess everyone supoports that..ppl like rehar, selsta, moo etc are all in the top category..."take the money and just show results later" basically...they have earned our trust many times 14:09:25 but by all accounts, this was an instance where the parties were definitely phase 3 14:10:03 absolutely..thats why its a little suprising 14:10:03 midipoet: that would require core team to use an exchange 14:10:07 doubt they want that 14:10:27 tax reasons etc don't know how that works exactly 14:10:35 I see 14:10:37 so somehow our manifest collective gestalt facilitation of the obvious just didn't happen this time 14:10:44 But cypherstack could have, no? 14:10:56 I mean, was that not on the main reasons behind this agreement? 14:10:58 why would they? 14:11:02 *one 14:11:18 what is cypherstack doing with a stablecoin? 14:11:31 so somehow our manifest collective gestalt facilitation of the obvious just didn't happen this time--> indeed, but its important we get to the root of that...misscomunication maybe? probably only rehard can answer that 14:11:33 but these are turbulent times. the communication channels thing is definitely making our whole machine a bit spluttery 14:11:35 selsta: to hedge against volatility risk as their employee was to be paid in USD, I assume? 14:11:41 imagine if this freenode thing happened during the asic wars 14:11:50 i mean jesus 14:11:56 midipoet: but they can convert to real usd in the first place 14:12:13 selsta: fair point! I'll shut up now 14:14:04 I assume we were in the middle of a bull market so rehrar probably wasn't thinking about significant price drop 14:14:14 right, that too 14:14:33 in a bear market you probably think about this before doing a ccs 14:15:51 which is a bitter lesson, but nothing the community should pay any consequences by withholding future contracts 14:16:20 in the end rehard blames xmr volatility and not himself, which isnt correct 14:17:00 im sure we can find a solution...raise salary 10% for next contract or whatever 14:17:10 (and hedge it then) ^^ 14:18:49 !tip 10.1 14:19:03 we can stuff that hole indirectly without causing too much fuss 14:19:22 and let grass grow over it 14:20:01 but threatening to pause xmr contractor work because of this is not ok 14:20:51 just my opinion ofc, as always 14:21:15 Yes 14:22:19 Problem has been identified and it seems that solutions as expressed by gingeropolous and others seems reasonable 14:22:35 back to puming :D 14:22:47 Payout upfront 14:23:09 puming? 14:23:32 pumping...sorry my keyboard is broken 14:32:46 Please fix sew can pamp 14:34:43 I'm in support of paying out CCS proposals upfront for sarang / well known contributors. 14:34:50 Keeping valuable contributors interested in working on Monero by mitigating exchange risk for CCS proposals far outweighs the risk of undelivered work. 14:39:23 I mean that exists already anyway, sarang did it in the past 14:41:52 Did CypherStack not request the payout upfront? Was it denied? 14:41:58 they did not 14:46:29 But could have? 14:46:35 I mean in that case it seems like an oversight on their part really. 14:46:44 I would still contribute to a second proposal, though. If it doesn't happen again in the future. 14:51:41 medusa_: there was enough criticism of the proposal as is, I didn't dare use my good will that I built up outside of the business to get the business special favors like immediate pay out before the work was complete. 14:51:46 tobtoht: ^ 14:51:54 Believe me, it was considered. 14:52:10 And in the future proposals it probably would have been a thing. 14:53:18 Ok, I see rehrar. Thanks for clarifying. 15:01:11 i get that rehrar and i have understanding for it, but maybe your approach was too conservative. i think many of the donors (especially the big ones that are around for long time) wouldnt have had an issue with it if cypherstack gets paid in advance, really noone with a brain expects you to run with the money. definetely make use of the trust you built up next time 15:02:20 how we fix the hole it created now i dont know really 15:03:15 but the "lets make a 2nd funding round or we have to withhold future contracts" approach doesnt seem best to me 15:05:51 maybe the "lets get even more contracts from xmr and price has suprisingly risen 5% due to inflation" is the better approach^^ 15:07:08 medusa_: I already got a lot of shit for the proposal as it was though, I guarantee I would have gotten more for trying to get special treatment. But you're right, I perhaps should have pushed for it regardless against the haters. 15:20:46 medusa_: "what volatile about xmr lol? every project is volatile if you dont hedge your salaries" <-- other projects I accept either USD or get paid in advance 15:21:20 But alright, I see that ultimately half the community would be ok with it and half would be upset, so I'll not open a second proposal 15:23:34 xmr also accepts payment in advance 15:23:38 i really get both sides 15:24:04 and i think everyone has an interest in it being resolved somehow smoothly...how that looks like is the other question 15:24:13 how big is the hole we talking about anyway ? 15:24:18 medusa_: you may get both sides, but your overwhelmingly negative comments on reddit will undoubtedly sway some to the negative ;) 15:25:22 medusa_: about 8 XMR 15:29:22 that should be a non issue than really..we should be able to solve that right here and move on and put it to the archive under lessons learned 15:30:41 no need to create fuss over 2k USD imo 15:34:02 Alright. I will not make a fuss on it. 15:37:15 but ideally we take care that this loss doesnt grow further..so maybe we can payout the contract now and come up with the missing 8 xmr in the coming days ? 15:37:30 or something like that..i dont know... 15:38:11 best to check with core probably 15:40:41 medusa_: come up with the missing 8 xmr how? Be expectant of private donation? CCS? I don't dare ask for GF money. 15:53:00 yes i think it could be solved via private donations, as long as it stays a one time thing i would support that 15:58:59 maybe even a partial payment from core fund could be justified, since core should have approached you and said "hey but this is contract based work, you aware of the volatility risks?" 15:59:19 in the end its hard and unecessary to point fingers...seems to be more of a collective fuck up 15:59:31 which gladly the damage is pretty small 15:59:46 and shouldnt affect future collaboration 16:01:54 what is more important in the long run is that other well known contributiors realize that they do have the possibility to hedge their CCS payments by geting paid oput in advance, like selsta 16:06:36 will keep it in mind 16:09:43 give selsta literally all the money 16:10:06 medusa_: I will not open the can of worms that is accepting money from Core. I would get crucified for this. 16:10:45 And not without good reason btw :P 16:11:07 right, my argument was pretty streched ^^ 16:41:44 will keep it in mind -> ideally we reach a point where under each CCS the question is asked "how will volatility risks be handled?" esp when it comes to bigger contracts that are USD based. this means core and also community need to keep an eye on that in the future 16:43:48 gladly the loss now is very small and as long as there are lessons learned its a non issue imo 16:43:52 medusa_: right. A thing was proposed (actually two things) before sarang left, but he was the one that wanted to use it most so it was put on the back burner after he stepped out. 16:45:10 Core has in the past said that huge projects can count on the GF to make up for volatility provided they're also ok with sharing surplus to the GF in the event that the price goes up instead. As well, an additional 10% would be added to the proposal itself which would be given to the GF to help offset this risk. 16:45:35 This was one of the ideas, and sarang was set to be the first to make use of it, but he opted for immediate payouts instead. 16:46:12 That said, perhaps the idea can be reinstated, and proposers can decide whether or not to opt in to this method and have a guaranteed USD paycheck, but reap no rewards on upward tick in price, or not opt in and take that risk themselves. 16:46:39 If my business wasn't operating pretty tightly right now, I'd be more than happy to accept greater risk, and sometime in the future when I'm making the muns, it's probably what I'll do. 17:02:46 im not sure core should do this service tbh. I think just paying in advance for veteran contributors (which chypherstack is a part off) is the simplest and most easy...everyone themselfs can decide then if they want the risk or not. 17:03:02 for new and unknow contributiors its something else...but we dont have many of those anyway 19:11:16 u guys are the best 21:21:44 yeah sorry for bringing the pitchforks...im one of the firsts to pick them up usually but i also try to be one of the firsts that put them away again and finds a solution, which i think we managed. 23:26:15 rehrar: saw your response on Reddit and responded there, thanks 23:26:47 I'm glad you decided to listen to the community on this one 23:27:43 09:10 <@rehrar> medusa_: I will not open the can of worms that is accepting money from Core. I would get crucified for this. ->>> I'm not sure if this is a joke or feigned righteousness. do you mean to tell us that you stopped accepting a salary from the GF? 23:28:46 it was about what i said...to pay the missing 8 xmr from core fund, which was a bad idea to begin with 23:29:58 nothing related to his salary 23:37:22 just a strange comment to come from the person who's been the biggest beneficiary of Core's beneficence 23:38:07 geonic: no, I meant accept money from core for the CCS shortfall, which medusa_ suggested as an off-hand comment 23:38:36 for what it's worth btw, the community was not overwhelmingly against this. 23:38:41 but several people were 23:40:57 How is it strange? I'm paid by core as their employee, and because of that COI I would never accept XMR from the general fund for recovering the shortfall of the proposal. It just looks and feels bad 23:41:44 out of the 45 comments in that thread I think only 5 didn't raise the concern. looked pretty overwhelming to me. you yourself said "the community spoke, and I listened" 23:44:29 I'm puzzled that this would look and feel bad to you, but being an employee of Core and at the same time working for and providing services to competing projects, and facilitating the lending of services of other Monero contributors to these competing projects, doesn't look and feel bad to you 23:46:04 it looks and feels bad to many people 23:47:31 geonic: it's no secret that you haven't been a fan of me or my position for a long time. I just wish you'd say such things outright so it can be discussed with the community and core properly, instead of what you and so many others do in making biting remarks and going on with your day. 23:47:53 If enough people are willing to raise their voice that they don't like what I'm doing, on the business side, the contractor for core side, or both, I'll see about making changes. 23:48:41 But at the moment I don't have actionable feedback on a lot of things, and only realize some people aren't thrilled with it after quite some time. 23:50:11 Also, of the 45 comments in the thread, only a handful were overtly negative (and many by the same people). Others were discussions, questions, etc. 23:51:28 sorry. have I not been explicit? plenty people have raised that concern. just look at the original CCS thread. look at your "transparency" report on Reddit and the responses you received there. just today, obit33 asked you for the reports about your work for Core. you answered his other questions but ignored that one. 23:51:47 Let me answer plainly here then. I don't plan to release more transparency reports. 23:52:14 I spent the next several days answering publicly and privately many opinions, complaints, and ideas about how I should be spending my time. 23:52:50 I'm answerable to Core, and they still think I'm doing a good job. I report to them. Arguing with the community about all of these things is a waste of my time. The Core Team sees a need for my skills, even when many in the community don't. 23:54:13 In the core report that revealed my position, many people were upset at me that it was going on for so long without them knowing. This was a thing that Core asked me to do. Be truthful if asked, but don't reveal voluntarily. And I was asked several times and answered truthfully leading it to be in the open many times. 23:56:05 i for one share Cores view on this and think your work is valuable rehrar. just to make that clear if my reddit comments should leave any other impression. all i cared about is the hedging of cypherstacks salaries paid by community, which i consider as solved 23:56:07 The report I did release was a courtesy. Not a requirement for my position. 23:56:56 medusa_: yes. Lessons were learned. I was too conservative in not trying to take advantage of my position. Please understand my intentions were good for not requesting instant release of money. 23:57:46 The drop was also violent and drastic, and had it been not in the range of $100/XMR, I mightn't have cared. 23:57:54 of course, i do have understanding, esp when seeing how you get attacked on a regulas basis 23:58:57 medusa_: you really don't see a conflict of interest in that the only person who is receiving a salary from the Monero project is running an outsourcing business and acting as a middleman for other contributors within the same project? not to mention competing projects? 23:58:59 I understand some of why. If I'm going to be working for core, I should be at a much higher standard. After all, that's a lot of power and trust given to me in the community, and if I use it flippantly it will make people nervous. 23:59:54 geonic: sarang was no longer a consistent contributor the project, and, again, would only be a consistent contributor if he found a deal like mine. I didn't 'poach' anyone.