01:20:33 <Chamus> <Rucknium[m]> "who are facing gaps in funding" - That is a really good idea
02:25:37 <gingeropolous> Personally, I don't see the need to overcomplicate it. The main thing is to get the word out there. The grad students / post docs can look at the code, the math, chat here on IRC, and see if they can pitch a CCS
02:26:43 <gingeropolous> I honestly think the best way to do this is word of mouth, bottom up. As sgp_[m] said, the regular channels like to work with regular entities - established orgs, blah blah blah
02:26:58 <gingeropolous> this is just gonna be paperwork, bullshit, and red tape
02:27:33 <gingeropolous> we somehow need to get the idea that you can get paid magic internet money to do magic moon math if you want to
02:28:54 <gingeropolous> then the student / postdoc can do what they want with the money. if its to support a summer, great. or whatever. long story short, grad student / post doc "income" is laughable. every grad student / postdoc is lookin for extra 
02:31:35 <gingeropolous> as far as a full time thing post graduation / postdoc, thats a different thing.
02:33:23 <nioc> gingeropolous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2VL76QhU_U
02:34:19 <gingeropolous> but i could just be ranting for no good reason. i need to reread Rucknium[m] 's wall of text
02:35:31 <nioc> not a comment, just a present for you gingeropolous 
02:35:53 <gingeropolous> :) thanks
02:36:12 <gingeropolous> did you see my recent github activity regarding the removal of cats
02:36:29 <nioc> yes some linked it
02:38:59 <gingeropolous> what we really need to do is find a way to recreate the matrix experience for some grad student
02:40:43 <gingeropolous> "the monero project has found you. Have you felt like the whole system is collapsing, the society and infrastructure your career depends on are deteriorating before your eyes and you feel powerless to change it?"
02:40:58 <gingeropolous> so yeah, point 4
02:43:24 <gingeropolous> oh you already posted that on the reddits
02:43:39 <gingeropolous> well yes. Get jim in marketing to whip up a matrix-like recruitment effort
02:49:14 <Rucknium[m]> gingeropolous:  Do you have some experience with graduate-level academia? It sort of seems like you do,  since you understand what is to be done and how it is to be done.
02:49:27 <gingeropolous> indeed.
02:50:23 <gingeropolous> yo, i found a server that could (someday) get upgraded to 4TB of ram.
02:50:41 <gingeropolous> your R scripts would be so happy
02:51:56 <Rucknium[m]> 👍️ I agree that red tape is the last thing we need -- or rather the last thing that grad students and similar need. And yes, this is the proper formulation as far as I am concerned: "we somehow need to get the idea that you can get paid magic internet money to do magic moon math if you want to."
02:52:46 <Rucknium[m]> I'm liking what I'm seeing in the Reddit comments: "This has literally been my goal as a computer science student. Whenever I dread doing something I just tell myself it's a step in the direction of becoming a data scientist and having the skills to contribute to the monero project."
02:53:04 <gingeropolous> I think the point raised in the reddit by... i forget.. is a good one though. regardless of an individual having the skill and talent, the individual has to have had the ah-hah moment with cryptocurrency
02:53:22 <gingeropolous> and the similar associated ah-hah moment with the existing monetary system / economy
02:53:22 <Rucknium[m]> I've been linking people to the instructions to join the Monero Matrix server.
02:53:48 <gingeropolous> so say we come up with some amazing way to actually get into someones computer and re-create a matrix experience
02:53:56 <Rucknium[m]> They need to have fire in the belly. It will be a particular type of person, for sure.
02:54:00 <gingeropolous> yeah
02:54:33 <gingeropolous> well, i guess it could just boil down to a good video with an option of red pill / blue pill at the end
02:55:15 <gingeropolous> surely someones done this already for bitcoin
02:55:20 <gingeropolous> its the same pitch
02:55:26 <Rucknium[m]> <gingeropolous> "yo, i found a server that could..." <- Wow, 4 TB of RAM! 😍😍😍😍😍😍
02:55:27 <Rucknium[m]> I mean, R isn't _that_ RAM-hungry, but still :D
02:56:09 <gingeropolous> oh thats right, you have the matrix lag
02:57:13 <Rucknium[m]> No, that's not Matrix lag. That's I wanted to finish my train of thought before, um, shooting heart eyes all over the place.
02:57:22 <gingeropolous> lol
02:58:25 <gingeropolous> what we really need is a .edu email to contact from
02:59:05 <gingeropolous> .org is close ... but an .edu will get through filters and general email clutter
03:00:58 <gingeropolous> well i'll put writing a script and making a storyboard on my list of things to do
07:14:02 <sgp_[m]> I can still send and receive email from my .edu
07:14:51 <sgp_[m]> I might even still have crypto⊙ue but even if so, not sure if I could use that
07:18:43 <lousiF> my .edu email still works from years ago, lol
07:19:51 <lousiF> I don't think they ever expire
07:20:38 <lousiF> after you've attended uni
09:56:04 <Chamus> <gingeropolous> "I honestly think the best way to do this is word of mouth, bottom up. As sgp_[m] said, the regular channels like to work with regular entities - established orgs, blah blah blah" <- That "blah blah blah" part is the the really tough part man
09:56:38 <Chamus> Talent Acquisition is a horrible hustle, you really have to chop stone to get anywhere
09:56:44 <Chamus> Usually at least
09:57:52 <Chamus> That is the reason recruiters can charge up to 35% of the annual compensation of top talent they enroll, because Talent Acquisition is tough, messy, risky and takes long time usually
10:01:07 <Chamus> This is why I believethaving criteria like "they need to know about Monero, be passionate about it and willing to get paid in it", is a "nice to have" but should not be a filtering criteria, as you likely remove over 99% of the pool talent if we expect them to be Monero fanbois
10:01:19 <Chamus> In my humble experience, at least
12:56:31 <gingeropolous> well, are u thinking of somehow squaring the circle and getting full time people?
12:58:07 <gingeropolous> i just don't have a lot of confidence with that approach. sure, maybe its possible, but i dunno. depends on the folks out there i guess
12:58:52 <gingeropolous> but if we're dependent on non-monero fanbois as hired guns ... well, there's no substitute for passion
13:10:38 <xmrhaelan[m]> > <@rucknium:monero.social> a) Grad students (Master's but especially PhD) who are facing gaps in funding. They might not have research or teaching funding for the summer. Instead, work for Monero! Even some Post-docs face funding gaps, probably.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/e7748f8d7b958a994c178d665dd383c34d7f0906)
13:14:30 <Rucknium[m]> xmrhaelan: Good question! And good idea: It could be worth it to specifically target such school, to the extent that they exist. However, I am not the best person to ask since I'm a microeconomist, not a computer scientist, so I don't know schools' reputations with respect to FOSS promotion.
13:21:36 <Rucknium[m]> Ok I made a new public Matrix room for new people who "answered the call" from Reddit and for developing a plan for broader recruitment. Join by clicking here: #monero-recruitment:monero.social 
13:28:56 <nioc> can IRlC people join?
13:32:23 <Rucknium[m]> nioc:  I don't know how to bridge. I mean, of course all IRC people are "invited", but I don't know to accomplish it technically.
13:36:47 <bevanoff[m]> <xmrhaelan[m]> "> <@rucknium:monero.social> a..." <- At my school obviously everybody that graduates from CS/CE and doesn’t go for PhD goes to industry because money but each student is definitely highly encouraged to contribute to open source software
13:54:13 <xmrhaelan[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "Ok I made a new public Matrix..." <- I clicked and nothing happens. It is because I have a :matrix.org handle?
13:54:43 <xmrhaelan[m]> * > <@rucknium:monero.social> Ok I made a new public Matrix room for new people who "answered the call" from Reddit and for developing a plan for broader recruitment. Join by clicking here: #monero-recruitment:monero.social 
13:54:43 <xmrhaelan[m]> I clicked and nothing happens. is it because I have a :matrix.org handle?
13:55:23 <Rucknium[m]> Ok I invited you.
14:01:33 <Rucknium[m]> Ok in case clicking on the thing doesn't work to make you join the Monero Recruitment Matrix room, do this:
14:01:33 <Rucknium[m]> Look at the list of rooms you have on the left size of the app. Then click the "+" at the top of the list. Then type in the search bar "monero-recruitment". That should find the room and you should be able to join it.
14:39:57 <Chamus> <gingeropolous> "i just don't have a lot of confidence with that approach. sure, maybe its possible, but i dunno. depends on the folks out there i guess" <- I understand man
14:59:11 <endogenic> https://twitter.com/MastercardNews/status/1435966760549715978
14:59:17 <endogenic> mastercard acquiring ciphertrace .. wut
15:00:57 <bevanoff[m]> Uh oh
15:01:09 <Chamus> Wut!
15:01:18 <Chamus> Wow
15:01:41 <Rucknium[m]> I think we should be concerned. CipherTrace strikes me as a bit amateurish, but with MasterCard money tat could change.
15:03:08 <endogenic> well, it helps confirm that shoring up our research and security capabilities is in order
15:03:33 <endogenic> and i'll take this chance to reiterate that we should have done everything we could have to make Sarang and Surae feel secure and taken care of if we were going to rely on them to ensure the security of the network
15:04:06 <selsta> Maybe they just buy CipherTrace for the patents.
15:04:16 <endogenic> I think it's time we choose as a community to de-emphasize the voices of drama who clearly have personal conflicts of interest so that we can choose to prioritize what we need to set up as a community to make sure we can retain that kind of talent
15:05:02 <endogenic> if anyone should be banned it's people going around on twitter calling contributors bad actors for questioning who is really the cause of the uncertainty of researchers like sarang
15:05:25 <endogenic> I've heard reports of the amateurishness and ineffectiveness of Ciphertrace internally
15:05:41 <endogenic> so I would agree that more seasoned management is going to make them more effective at their mission
15:05:59 <endogenic> there are, however, plenty of other parties with the mandate to crack monero
15:11:29 <gingeropolous> ah damnit. thats what we shoulda done! made a bogus tracing company and get some dipshit company to buy us
15:11:48 <nioc> lol
15:13:41 <Rucknium[m]> Then use the sale money to fund all the things!
15:14:41 <gingeropolous> eggsactly
15:14:46 <gingeropolous> but man oh man, the wagons are circling
15:16:33 <gingeropolous> can the old guard defend their monopoly on money? will the internet dreamers be able to build the future of money? Tune in next week for the next installment!
15:28:52 <carrington[m]> Honestly I would not be surprised if this was a case of CipherTrace seeing the writing on the wall that chain analysis would become impossible with Monero on the scene, and deciding to cash in while the going is good
15:29:34 <carrington[m]> "Atomic swaps are live? To the escape pods!"
15:30:38 <nikg83[m]> The confidence is scary
15:30:44 <Chamus> <carrington[m]> "Honestly I would not be surprised if this was a case of CipherTrace seeing the writing on the wall that chain analysis would become impossible with Monero on the scene, and deciding to cash in while the going is good" <- Your prose is beautiful, sir
15:32:53 <carrington[m]> Furthermore, having numerous "patents pending" (not granted) is exactly the sort of thing a small company does when they want to jump ship and sell off
15:38:01 <endogenic> it's possible, yeah, although likely they are buying talent as well
15:42:12 <big_didley[m]> CipherTrace just got access to a pile of cash and lobbying power. To think that this is them "jumping ship" is naive.
15:50:06 <Chamus> All this is good as it will only increase awareness on the inviability of surveillance blockchains to serve as a monetary base
15:50:27 <Chamus> And will bring attention to opaque ones
15:55:49 <coinstudent2048[> big_didley: yup. new talents + bigger infrastructure. Chamus has a point too, but we need to have our move/s too.
16:03:48 <xmrscott[m]> <carrington[m]> "Honestly I would not be surprise..." <- "Always operate from a position of strength [while you can]" as the saying goes
16:17:07 <big_didley[m]> Mostly just worried that they now have a much bigger lobbying arm. What cant be traced with their software will be marginalized to the extent possible at state level. Mastercard level lobbying against privacy. Fun. As if the state needed much pushing in that direction.
16:18:59 <big_didley[m]> Fake it till you make it type remarks about this sale feels like cope.
16:21:38 <big_didley[m]> Adversaries getting more money and power is hard to call a win.
16:27:08 <rupee[m]> not sure what the acquisition has to do with Mastercard lobbying against privacy. They're gonna do that either way.
16:28:14 <rupee[m]> My guess is mastercard wants the tech to use for themselves and will wind down contracts with governments and companies/competitors
16:29:16 <rupee[m]> When paypal bought Curv, they stopped accepting new customers and started working towards winding down existing business to focus on PayPal's business
16:40:57 <big_didley[m]> Mastercard just bought a company who's Achilles heel is Monero. You don't think Mastercard will try to marginalize Monero? They now make money from monitoring crypto, Monero hurts their ability to do so. So therefore...
16:42:55 <rupee[m]> I don’t think they will make money from monitoring crypto. I think they will use the tools for themselves only. I think they would be anti monero regardless
16:43:02 <big_didley[m]> Logic is clear. We can tell ourselves Mastercard was never going to be a privacy advocate, but that's different than now having an interest in surveillance coins.
16:44:55 <rupee[m]> To be clear, I don’t think they will make money from licensing the tech. They will absolutely make money (and prevent fraud) from data analytics
16:44:58 <big_didley[m]> I think they will make money from monitoring in a business analytics sense, then I think they will make money and get influence by selling the monitoring to govs.
16:45:18 <rupee[m]> Sure
16:47:35 <xmrscott[m]> They are a payment processor. Would not be surprised if they bought CT to add the tech to be able to add cryptocurrency into their gateway services
16:55:00 <geonic> gingeropolous, Rucknium[m] <-- Jim in marketing sent me this https://imgur.com/a/nc05oiX
16:55:32 <geonic> there's also .work .team etc..
16:58:09 <Chamus> Cool stuff man
16:58:27 <selsta> just flag all monero transactions suspicious, no need for ciphertrace
16:58:34 <Chamus> Great employer branding! ;)
16:59:35 <geonic> Thunderosa is our graphics guru
17:00:03 <Chamus> Those kind of messages and materials will be super useful to luring talent
17:00:15 <Chamus> The right talent
17:02:51 <rupee[m]> can you explain what you mean Chamus ?
17:05:10 <geonic> #CensorshipBubble
17:06:49 <geonic> Matrix is really living up to its name :p
17:16:56 <Chamus> <rupee[m]> "can you explain what you mean Chamus ?" <- Using "employer branding" materials to lure talent is an endemic approach
17:17:45 <geonic> Chamus: he hadn't seen my message so was thinking you're talking to yourself. I sent it to him via pm
17:17:52 <Chamus> And Monero needs this way more than Amazon, or Walmart because tbh, people really do not know about Monero
17:18:07 <Chamus> Ah ok
17:18:11 <Chamus> Cheers
17:18:17 <rupee[m]> Thanks. i think i just got confused because I'm not seeing some messages that are only on IRC
17:18:30 <geonic> people with [m] are living in Justin's matrix.. so to speak :)
17:19:01 <Chamus> Bingo?
17:19:03 <Chamus> :p
17:40:43 <Caesar[m]> Thinking of setting up a RPC node, any tips?
17:45:37 <nioc> geonic: and then there are those banned from irc and can only be seen on matrix 
17:46:03 <geonic> wow the beauty of interoperability
17:46:17 <nioc> selsta> just flag all monero transactions suspicious, no need for ciphertrace <<>> #1 comment
17:46:27 <geonic> I thought matrix was just a bridge to IRC? what's with the alternate realities.
17:53:59 <luigi1111w> should we sync up the realities?
17:54:27 <nioc> unpossible 
17:54:47 <luigi1111w> also any known community members that want to moderate this channel?
18:03:49 <geonic> I'd have to kick myself out so I'll pass
18:04:18 <xmrscott[m]> It's one channel Michael, how much of a time commitment could it be, 5 min per week?
18:04:43 <Chamus> lol
18:04:57 <luigi1111w> geonic demonstrating unprecedented self-awareness
18:05:10 <geonic> I have moments of clarity
18:05:30 <Chamus> so there was progress after all?
18:05:53 <Chamus> I had been told otherwise
18:06:09 <luigi1111w> let's see how therapy goes next week
18:07:45 <endogenic> hm should I moderate?
18:08:00 <sethsimmons> <Caesar[m]> "Thinking of setting up a RPC..." <- I have a guide around that, but happy to answer other questions you may have: https://sethforprivacy.com/guides/run-a-monero-node/
18:09:48 <sethsimmons> <luigi1111w> "also any known community members..." <- It's just being a janitor, so surely someone can handle that
18:09:48 <sethsimmons> /s
18:10:29 <geonic> these janitors can hold grudges though I'm telling you
18:10:30 <xmrscott[m]> <nioc> "geonic: and then there are those..." <- If there are people who are banned on IRC but aren't on Matrix let me know and I imagine I'd be happy to sync the realities on Matrix side
18:15:56 <nioc> xmrscott[m]: this was in markets and besides that I think there are other issues with the bridge 
18:16:10 <xmrscott[m]> Also, as a -community regular who hasn't been subject to ad hominem attacks on either reddit or Twitter yet, perhaps the least likely to have emotional bias that can take the hit for syncing Matrix / IRC on -community if Core doesn't want to take a position on this after a week(?)
18:16:59 <Chamus> <endogenic> "hm should I moderate?" <- You'd make a proper fair mod endo
18:17:24 <xmrscott[m]> nioc: There have indeed been issues across the rooms w/ the bridge and Matrix support hasn't been quick as we'd like to remedy. Still, if you see issues feel free to PM and I'll address as I can
18:17:49 <nioc> thx :)
18:27:26 <midipoet> endogenic: stop with the guilt trip on the community re the Noethers. Of course the community would have liked to have kept them, and of course we could have done better to try and solve the issue, but let's call a spade a spade. they chose to leave. There are others here that stay regardless. 
18:27:56 <luigi1111w> sethsimmons xmrscott[m] tag team?
18:28:20 <endogenic> midipoet: no
18:28:39 <endogenic> if you give someone enough grief and they choose to leave, what then
18:28:54 <endogenic> and who, who is still here, has been through what difficulties exactly?
18:29:20 <endogenic> besides the guilt trip is a damn wake up call to you
18:29:54 <endogenic> almost every other CCS proposal should take a back seat to ensuring we have one or two people who are actually examining the network and technologies for upcoming and existing threats
18:29:58 <sethsimmons> We should get 2 min to be sure we have some redundancy.
18:29:58 <sethsimmons> luigi1111w: I can, I mod other channels, but I'd prefer not to if there are others.
18:30:07 <endogenic> the fact we didnt look after those people says more about how we treat ourselves than it does about how we treat others
18:30:19 <luigi1111w> k
18:30:24 <endogenic> and so does our propensity to seek corrupt leadership - maybe we dont think we deserve it ?
18:30:39 <endogenic> it -> those who are not out to misuse us
18:31:01 <endogenic> you can call me extreme but while you're scapegoating me, you merely have to wait for the news to come out of contributors driven away at their own cost
18:31:13 <endogenic> you may have less idea what happens behind the scenes than you realize
18:31:19 <endogenic> so no, i won't
18:34:11 <midipoet> endogenic: the Noethers got f all grief while they were around, as far as I could see. Certainly no more grief than any other high profile contributor for the project.  
18:34:21 <endogenic> you can't see
18:34:45 <midipoet> well then tell us, so we can at least understand what we are supposed to feel guilty for
18:35:16 <midipoet> Otherwise you are just spouting on, blaming a community for things we don't know/see. 
18:35:33 <endogenic> it's not possible for me to tell you everything they experienced which i witnessed
18:35:56 <midipoet> Well then stop making everyone feel guilty for it
18:35:59 <endogenic> what's clear is that the community didn't get its stuff together to organize a solution that retained the blessing of an independent academic research group
18:36:04 <sethsimmons> He loves to blame and point fingers but will never give details.
18:36:05 <endogenic> midipoet i really think you're missing the point
18:36:10 <endogenic> you need to wake up and realize monero is in danegr
18:36:12 <sethsimmons> But expects details from others.
18:36:13 <endogenic> that is why i say this
18:36:16 <midipoet> No. You're missing the point
18:36:26 <midipoet> We KNOW things needed changing
18:36:28 <midipoet> And they are
18:36:31 <midipoet> End of
18:36:37 <midipoet> It was never going to efficient
18:36:41 <midipoet> As f all is in Monero
18:36:46 <midipoet> Especially when it's big chnages
18:36:52 <midipoet> (bar the Devs)
18:37:26 <midipoet> endogenic: if you keep harking on about Monero being in danger, guess what. It will be
18:38:51 <endogenic> spoken like a non security researcher
18:39:13 <endogenic> sure, surae and sarang chose to work on other stuff 
18:39:28 <midipoet> and for what's it's worth. Monero researchers are always going to be at risk of being poached for other projects. There is absolutely nothing we can do to stop this ever. If the social contract doesn't mind researchers enough, then nothing will, regardless of whether there is a "proper" research lab, or not. 
18:39:30 <endogenic> they were exposed to personal risk and were given many dramas made by people we looked up to
18:39:37 <endogenic> the fact is that we did not prioritize them
18:39:40 <endogenic> you're in denial
18:39:41 <endogenic> and it shows
18:39:54 <midipoet> endogenic: yes - they chose too
18:40:00 <endogenic> i know it's scary to admit the exposure we face but we put it on them instead of taking it on ourselves
18:40:02 <midipoet> Which is exactly what I am saying
18:40:02 <endogenic> and that is our failure
18:40:06 <endogenic> in fact, not ours, but yours
18:40:11 <endogenic> i'm doing something different
18:40:16 <midipoet> Of they had wanted to stay - THEY would have tried to make it work
18:40:21 <endogenic> that's bullshit
18:40:42 <midipoet> I don't remember ONE public convo about the issues
18:41:03 <midipoet> Certainly don't remember any community meetings or GitHub issues
18:41:11 <endogenic> then why are you insisting upon your opinion
18:41:22 <midipoet> So how could the community put into action a remedy, when the community wasn't asked?
18:41:27 <endogenic> because it's fun to rally behind people like seth as you tear apart those who say stuff that challenges you?
18:41:37 <endogenic> the community was asked
18:41:42 <endogenic> i dont appreciate your bad faith arguments 
18:41:42 <midipoet> I am not tearing anybody apart. 
18:41:44 <endogenic> i'm going back to work
18:41:50 <midipoet> I am saying it's done. And move on
18:41:54 <endogenic> no
18:41:57 <endogenic> it's not done yet
18:42:04 <midipoet> We are actively trying to put into action a better set up
18:42:06 <endogenic> go move on somewhere else and take Seth with you
18:42:07 <midipoet> That is the outcome
18:42:19 <sethsimmons> endogenic just give an actionable thing the Monero community can do or move on, dude.
18:42:20 <midipoet> Yes, it's a shitty way to get there, but that's the way it is. 
18:42:28 <sethsimmons> Going on and on about it helps no one and changes nothing.
18:42:36 <sethsimmons> If you see how it could be improved, go for it.
18:42:42 <endogenic> go read some of my reddit posts Seth
18:42:45 <endogenic> for once
18:42:46 <endogenic> in your life
18:42:48 <endogenic> have some humility
18:42:56 <sethsimmons> No one is stopping you, but no one needs to constant reminders of some vague failing every day.
18:43:06 <endogenic> and when you become someone I feel even remotely like I can trust maybe I'll start telling you about the plans I have been working on
18:43:06 <sethsimmons> endogenic: What Reddit posts? Give some links.
18:43:12 <endogenic> donate first
18:43:13 <endogenic> bye
18:43:19 <sethsimmons> I haven't seen anything from you outside of the failed CCS in many months.
18:43:25 <sethsimmons> endogenic: Could care less if you trust me
18:43:30 <endogenic> ^ exacrtlyt
18:43:32 <endogenic> that's who you really are
18:43:35 <sethsimmons> If you can't give any details or actionable points, just move on dude.
18:43:41 <endogenic> no, you move on
18:43:44 <sethsimmons> endogenic: LOL donate to you to get details and links?!?
18:43:45 <sethsimmons> wth
18:43:48 <sethsimmons> Is wrong with you
18:43:53 <endogenic> new article coming out - SethSimmons considered harmful
18:44:05 <sethsimmons> Just... wow
18:44:10 <sethsimmons> "Donate first" lmao
18:45:46 <geonic> ok guys let's put the crazy back in the bottle
18:47:02 <BusyBoredom[m]> In other news, has the community come to any kind of agreement on whether triptych work should continue? 
18:47:39 <sethsimmons> We need to have more meetings, I think, but I would say general consensus is Triptych is a non-starter.
18:48:15 <sethsimmons> My personal recommendation is:
18:48:15 <sethsimmons> - Hard-fork ASAP to bump ring-size to 17 and implement BP+
18:48:15 <sethsimmons> - Explore Seraphis and Lelantus Spark to ensure they are both feasible
18:48:15 <sethsimmons> - Do a clear comparison of the two
18:49:01 <geonic> if the Haveno team is OK with Triptych I see no reason why it can't go forward. an extra step or two for multisig doesn't make it a non-starter...
18:49:39 <geonic> I'd like to hear their opinion first before we write Triptych off
18:49:44 <luigi1111w> I think there's too much on going near term research to pick right now
18:50:11 <ComplyLast> multisig has way more use cases than Haveno, which doesn't even exist
18:50:26 <nioc> BusyBoredom[m]: :) no, an MRL meeting is trying to be scheduled to discuss the matter
18:51:58 <ComplyLast> relatively streamlined multisig should be a priority and not an afterthought imo
18:52:36 <sethsimmons> ComplyLast: 100%.
18:52:36 <sethsimmons> Haveno made me realize this, but is not the only reason for better multisig support.
18:53:03 <sethsimmons> Triptych multisig seems to be a non-starter, and both Seraphis and Lelantus Spark greatly reduce multisig complexity AFAICT.
18:53:09 <sethsimmons> Among other benefits.
18:53:46 <ajs_[m]> does triptych affect atomic swaps?
18:53:58 <xmrscott[m]> <luigi1111w> "Seth xmrscott[m] tag team?" <- I can as well
18:54:22 <crypto_grampy[m]> > <@sethsimmons:monero.social> My personal recommendation is:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/97e8aad348a0a9793944248b7251c763ba0b31c3)
18:54:37 <geonic> I'm not sure why it keeps being called a non-starter. Triptych can have multisig as we've learned. The question is, can it become a streamlined process with enough hours put in or will it always be clunky.
18:55:20 <endogenic> too bad we dont have a Noether on deck
18:55:26 <geonic> 06:17 <rbrunner> A little unfortunate that nobody painted a clear picture so far just *how bad* that multisig would be. As I said, no chance for me to read the report and deduct that myself.
18:55:26 <geonic> 06:19 <UkoeHB> It's not clear to me either. IIRC sarang said it would require 1 or 2 more rounds of communication to make tx.
18:56:33 <geonic> endogenic: we don't and we have to live with it. no amount of self-flagellation will fix it
18:56:35 <ComplyLast> didn't Sarang do that geonic?
18:56:45 <endogenic> oh yeah geonic you have Seth Noether now
18:57:00 <ComplyLast> or endo noether
18:57:02 <endogenic> and yes self flagellation of the right sort will be a good help
18:57:07 <ComplyLast> .summon infinite noethers
18:57:07 <xmr-pr> luigi1111 luigi1111w luigi1113 luigi1112 luigi1114 ༼つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
18:57:11 <endogenic> start with admitting that we failed and then we can actually do something about it
18:57:19 <endogenic> until then, we will be handicapped 
18:57:32 <geonic> ComplyLast: these comments were from a few days ago..
18:57:32 <endogenic> it's plain as day outside of the echo chamber
18:57:51 <geonic> endogenic: everyone admits it. now let's move on
18:57:57 <endogenic> that's incorrect 
18:57:58 <t-900-a> ajs_[m]: Not for COMIT atomic swaps, all data is stored on bitcoin.
18:58:02 <ComplyLast> Seth clearly doesn't
18:58:09 <ComplyLast> he is partially to blame
18:58:16 <crypto_grampy[m]> Is the irc bridge busted?
18:58:16 <geonic> how
18:58:17 <endogenic> admitting it means we need to go back and look at exactly what we could have done to reduce the Noether's stress and exposure 
18:58:29 <endogenic> the sincerity of our effort there was pitiful
18:58:39 <endogenic> and it's insane how quickly we fall behind someone who wants to apologize for ourselves 
18:58:40 <sethsimmons> ComplyLast: What don't I?
18:58:40 <geonic> endogenic: do it and publish a report
18:58:43 <DaveyJones> in the end its not only the community to blame - those two are adults too and could have come forward
18:58:56 <sethsimmons> crypto_grampy[m]: No, geonic is banned on matrix but not IRC so things look weird.
18:58:57 <DaveyJones> esp a community as generous as this
18:58:58 <geonic> DaveyJones +1
18:59:07 <endogenic> geonic: ok, let me do that while i manage being defrauded and having my personality security threatened
18:59:11 <endogenic> seriously, watch.
18:59:18 <ComplyLast> sethsimmons, I don't really have the time to discuss that now, I don't even think this is the right medium or place to have that conversation. Maybe some other day.
18:59:20 <endogenic> lol personality security
18:59:21 <endogenic> that too.
18:59:22 <geonic> if you have time to be here you have time for that too :)
18:59:26 <DaveyJones> they only needed to ask and someone would have made it happen!
18:59:32 <DaveyJones> 100%
18:59:42 <DaveyJones> they didnt - and now we have a shitshow
19:00:19 <endogenic> it's easy to say sarang left but that dude stuck it out after a lot. we stopped collectively deserving him
19:00:21 <endogenic> and it's time to admit it
19:00:36 <endogenic> if we don't, we're doing a great job at navel gazing and trying to make ourselves feel better
19:00:44 <endogenic> and i'm not gonna be able to enable y'all in that
19:00:52 <endogenic> especially not after i keep getting thrown under the bus 
19:01:08 <geonic> endogenic: no man. he realized he could earn more and be begged to take money instead of begging for money. that's it.
19:01:17 <sethsimmons> ComplyLast: OK, DMs are open as always.
19:01:22 <endogenic> that's untrue geonic
19:01:48 <endogenic> any one of us could be earning more money easily
19:01:55 <endogenic> especially me lol
19:02:18 <endogenic> and so could sarang or surae at any point during the years
19:02:25 <Chamus> <sethsimmons> "What Reddit posts? Give some links. I haven't seen anything from you outside of the failed CCS in many months" <- You already got burned whenyou tried and corner me thinking you would expose by asking me me "well what is it that you have done to turn Monero into a talent powerhouse" forcing me to reveal how your buddy Justin had
19:02:25 <Chamus> swept a 40k pro bono Talent Acquisition Proposal  under the rug cause it would shed light on how incredibly amateur his approach with Magic was. 
19:02:26 <endogenic> they stayed because they thought it was a good community
19:02:27 <endogenic> admit it
19:02:31 <ComplyLast> endogenic, I dont think it went down ideally, it certainly didn't. but blaming only the community is also a curious way to look at it. He could have revised rates at any point to be honest. Break down payments in a more granular fashion with bi-weekly goals, etc
19:02:34 <endogenic> you're lucky i'm a strong mfer
19:02:38 <endogenic> i'd never have survived the past 2 years otherwise
19:02:55 <endogenic> that's because it wasn't about the amount of money being paid, by itself, ComplyLast 
19:02:57 <endogenic> good evidence for that
19:03:13 <ComplyLast> there's conflicting evidence
19:03:20 <ComplyLast> it was about a lot of stuff and money was part of it
19:03:30 <Chamus> <sethsimons> "What Reddit posts? Give some links. I haven't seen anything from you outside of the failed CCS in many months" <- Be careful in being quick to judge, you might also get burned with Endogenic's work ;)
19:04:00 <endogenic> while people like Seth insist I dont have a plan or am never being specific (aside from saying he could benefit from a humbling experience), it's very obvious what we had to do for them
19:04:12 <endogenic> correct money solves loves of problems
19:04:16 <endogenic> loves lol
19:04:17 <endogenic> lots
19:04:22 <Chamus> Man
19:04:22 <endogenic> my tired brain
19:04:28 <Chamus> Seth is a wanna be social media influencer
19:04:31 <Chamus> he will act as such
19:04:35 <Chamus> nevermind him
19:04:39 <Chamus> He is just the janitor
19:04:47 <Chamus> for now at least ;)
19:04:58 <ComplyLast> endogenic, how exactly do people throw you under the bus?
19:05:13 <endogenic> it's a long story and if i told you details my life and security would be in even more danger
19:05:33 <sethsimmons> Glad I welcomed a potential CCS proposer into here to view this.
19:05:40 <endogenic> i'm gonna go back to work now i think
19:06:28 <endogenic> Chamus: you should be ashamed of yourself for defending the integrity of the discourse in this forum
19:06:32 <endogenic> clearly.
19:06:38 <endogenic>  /s 
19:06:44 <Chamus> Anyway I'm out
19:06:49 <Chamus> so much drama here always
19:07:50 <luigi1111w> <sethsimmons> Glad I welcomed a potential CCS proposer into here to view this. <= let 'em know what they're getting into
19:07:54 <sethsimmons> Lol causes drama and tells me to "fuck off" on Twitter and blames others for drama XD
19:07:57 <sethsimmons> Nice.
19:08:56 <xmrscott[m]> Pro gamer tip: If you don't want drama, maybe don't constantly make personal attacks and instead provide actual concrete actionable items
19:09:03 <sethsimmons> luigi1111w: Trial by fire 👿
19:09:50 <Epsilon> With all this arguing I'd make a killing selling popcorn.
19:10:21 <DaveyJones> not if you sell them for monero - you would get broke in no time
19:10:47 <ComplyLast> endogenic, I have been as attentive lately as I probably should have been, what is exactly your proposal to make sure noether like scenarios dont repeat again?
19:14:15 <ComplyLast> *i have not been as
19:14:59 <ComplyLast> as in, what should the community do better in the future to prevent such stuff from happening. you've been around for a long time so I'm sure your input would be valuable.
19:18:04 <fluffys_prison_a> <ComplyLast> "endogenic, I have been as..." <- What is the Noether-like scenario?  
19:18:41 <ComplyLast> you were not even on the channel when I sent that lol
19:21:25 <fluffys_prison_a> History seems to populate after joining this particular channel
19:22:15 <xmrscott[m]> That is indeed how Matrix is set up to work
19:23:01 <ComplyLast> fluffys_prison_a, essentially researchers requests/needs not being sufficiently met by the community
19:24:26 <midipoet> ComplyLast: I think the main discussion was a foundation like research lab, which was funded indefinitely/to a substantial amount
19:24:57 <midipoet> This would have taken the strain of the proposal cadence and also removed most reporting requirements
19:25:17 <midipoet> i.e more trust provided to the researchers who had earned it
19:25:30 <midipoet> At least that's what I remember some discussions being revolved around. 
19:25:47 <midipoet> But it wasn't done in an open/community meeting manner
19:26:00 <midipoet> That was mostly off-line/side channels
19:26:08 <ComplyLast> why couldn't Magic, at least partially, be that entity?
19:26:15 <ComplyLast> with Sarang being a board member
19:26:19 <midipoet> Yes, I think that was also discussed
19:26:22 <xmrscott[m]> FWIW I have suggested to Core in the past they explore taking up an OpenCollective account for MRL
19:26:24 <midipoet> And mostly supported
19:26:34 <midipoet> I don't know why it didn't happen
19:26:34 <ComplyLast> <xmrscott[m]> FWIW I have suggested to Core in the past they explore taking up an OpenCollective account for MRL
19:26:42 <ComplyLast> this seems like a smart way to do it too
19:26:44 <midipoet> But maybe that is what endogenic  is talking about
19:26:49 <ComplyLast> I think is what qubes (?) does
19:27:05 <xmrscott[m]> They have understandably been occupied the past few months with a whole slew of events not limited to security around fp post detention
19:27:18 <midipoet> What'd OpenCollective?
19:27:22 <midipoet> *what's
19:27:29 <xmrscott[m]> Yes, I donate to Qubes via it alongside Lutris and a few other projects
19:28:00 <xmrscott[m]> Basically a non-profit entity that allows for reocurring or adhoc donations to FOSS of note
19:28:13 <midipoet> Ah I see. Seems cool
19:28:14 <midipoet> https://opencollective.com/
19:28:30 <xmrscott[m]> Think Patreon, but geared towards FOSS and thus arguably better given focused scope
19:28:52 <ComplyLast> xmrscott[m], do they handle Monero though?
19:28:57 <ComplyLast> I think they do bitcoin
19:29:13 <xmrscott[m]> They do not
19:29:45 <ComplyLast> that would be a issue imo
19:29:54 <xmrscott[m]> At least not 2 months ago when I checked and highlighted to Core they were looking for CRyptocurrency solutions and they should definitely reach out
19:29:55 <ComplyLast> but maybe they could be persuaded to
19:30:02 <xmrscott[m]> Yes and no
19:30:12 <sudo_ki[m]> <Epsilon> "With all this arguing I'd make a..." <- Make sure you bring your cart for next weeks, monero beefs
19:30:13 <xmrscott[m]> Perfection is the enemy of done
19:31:02 <xmrscott[m]> Start w/ something that allows for reoccuring donations to those not worried about KYC
19:31:05 <t-900-a> I've recommended several options that have support for Monero. However it seems they are proceeded with Gemini.
19:31:08 <xmrscott[m]> Add in adhoc XMR payments when possible
19:31:09 <t-900-a> https://github.com/opencollective/opencollective/issues/4200
19:31:30 <ComplyLast> xmrscott[m], that would drastically limit the scope though
19:31:34 <t-900-a> s/proceeded/proceeding/
19:31:47 <ComplyLast> doesn't open collective manage qubes btc wallet too?
19:31:50 <ComplyLast> I had that impression
19:32:03 <xmrscott[m]> What would in what way?
19:32:19 <ComplyLast> manage the conversion to fiat, etc
19:33:21 <ComplyLast> my bad it seems xmrscott[m] 
19:49:44 <fluffys_prison_a> <t-900-a> "https://github.com/opencollectiv..." <- It sounds like they are still considering other providers- including Globee 
19:56:10 <fluffys_prison_a> Does anyone in here know a guy at Globee that could prioritize OpenCollective and maybe help get the ball rolling?
19:58:37 <xmrscott[m]> fluffys_prison_a: Since you're in prison, the only other person outside of the now in the past DC29 where they show up would be: support⊙gc
19:59:20 <xmrscott[m]> Or just this form in general: https://globee.com/contact
20:20:06 <sgp_[m]> I took a closer look at OpenCollective, but the fees may be higher than setting up one's own thing
20:20:20 <sgp_[m]> Opencollective doesn't appear to charge any fees
20:20:37 <sgp_[m]> BUT.... 501(c)(3) get lower credit card processing rates, that may not be passed along here
20:21:02 <sgp_[m]> so the fee may in effect be 0.5-1% more than doing on own
20:22:12 <sgp_[m]> I can look more closely and see if the discounts pass-through
20:22:38 <t-900-a> <fluffys_prison_a> "Does anyone in here know a guy..." <- Discussion was had with fluffy pre-incarceration. They may already be in contact with an account manager.
20:26:13 <t-900-a> * Discussion was had with fluffy pre-incarceration. They may have had contact with an account manager.
20:28:20 <fluffys_prison_a> <t-900-a> "Discussion was had with fluffy..." <- Seems like this would be the best way to get XMR's shoe in the door
20:28:58 <fluffys_prison_a> s/shoe/foot ?
20:31:49 <nioc> I vote foot
20:31:58 <nioc> many people vote with their feet
20:32:36 <gingeropolous> aye, foot. 
20:34:31 <bytesized[m]> Just finished touching up my ender 3, anyone have any ideas on what I can print to support monero? The only thing on thingiverse is just some keychains..
20:43:14 <gingeropolous> customizable puzzle box things that stores seed
20:46:15 <bytesized[m]> On it! 
21:18:54 <carrington[m]> There was a guy selling something exactly like that 3d printed, I'll see if I can find it... 
21:26:15 <carrington[m]> sphinxgadgets.com
21:35:15 <Rucknium[m]> I think we need to talk about who is going to spearhead my recruitment proposal. That "who" can include multiple people. The proposal got a groundswell of support, but as I stated in the proposal, I cannot spearhead the whole thing. I can just play a substantial role in some key parts of it.
21:35:27 <Rucknium[m]> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/pkg3d6/the_monero_project_should_actively_recruit/
21:36:45 <dEBRUYNE> As a side note, community's thoughts on stickying this thread ^?
21:37:14 <karce[m]> People don't usually read stickys unfortunately
21:37:27 <Rucknium[m]> I agree with the statement earlier that Monero is in danger. The long term viability of Monero as a privacy coin is in doubt if our (1) cryptographic capabilities are not restored and augmented and (2) our statistical capabilities are not rapidly ramped up.
21:37:57 <fluffys_prison_a> dEBRUYNE: Sticky until there are recruits IMO
21:38:29 <Rucknium[m]> I support stickying, but of course I'm biased.
21:39:37 <karce[m]> Is reddit the largest central Monero community?
21:39:50 <luigi1111w> 234k members probably
21:40:00 <luigi1111w> "active" I have no idea
21:40:14 <karce[m]> Should probably sticky it for a little while then
21:40:32 <karce[m]> Post to any other large communities.
21:44:10 <Rucknium[m]> ^ I grant permission to post it anywhere.
21:53:05 <sgp_[m]> What would the sticky do
21:53:28 <Rucknium[m]> Onboard more people into the Matrix server, for one.
21:55:22 <sgp_[m]> Stickying the matrix server info would be super useful I think. List the most active channels too for people to know what they're missing
21:58:59 <dEBRUYNE> sgp_[m]: Attract more talent to Monero?
22:00:31 <Chamus> <dEBRUYNE>  "Attract more talent to Monero?" <- Maybe sgp meant "what would the sticky do for me"?
22:00:32 <sgp_[m]> I suppose I would rather sticky something that was tailed to be a sticky, rather than "here is a random stickied list of recruitment to-dos"
22:00:48 <sgp_[m]> even if the post was like "we are looking for people for x, y, z specifically"
22:00:50 <Chamus> <dEBRUYNE>  "Attract more talent to Monero?" <- You thought he meant for Monero?
22:00:51 <Chamus> lol
22:00:53 <Chamus> :p
22:01:12 <sgp_[m]> wow so funny haha
22:01:17 <Chamus> it is funny come on
22:01:48 <sethsimmons> I agree that if a post is to be stickied long-term it should be written for that purpose
22:01:50 <Rucknium[m]> Maybe sticky it until we can develop a list of more specific needs. I do list the specific disciplines we should be looking for in that post.
22:01:53 <sethsimmons> Chamus: Nah
22:02:04 <dEBRUYNE> We can sticky it temporarily and replace it later
22:02:09 <sethsimmons> Rucknium[m]: I'm good with that middle ground.
22:02:22 <sgp_[m]> stickied posts should either be highly informative (eg wiki) or highly action-driven
22:02:24 <sethsimmons> dEBRUYNE: Yeah that sounds good
22:02:28 <sethsimmons> Its a great initiative
22:02:29 <sgp_[m]> and for the last part, should be super clear
22:02:48 <sgp_[m]> also the former fwiw
22:03:10 <sgp_[m]> just my 2c, I would expect a clear "do this one obvious thing"
22:03:18 <Rucknium[m]> I lay out a pretty clear plan. It doens't have all details, but it is more specific than anyone else has proposed, I think.
22:03:26 <sgp_[m]> even if it was sign up for a mailing list on this, or join this specific chat, etc
22:03:52 <dEBRUYNE> Plenty of comments in the thread that provide instructions on how to proceed though
22:03:59 <sethsimmons> sgp_[m]: Could just edit to ensure it points people to the new room for more info/questions/participation
22:04:09 <Rucknium[m]> I mean, it does now say at the top (I edited it) for people to join the Matrix server. Once they get here, we can slot them into tasks and so forth
22:04:11 <sethsimmons> It may already, I haven't read through
22:04:23 <sethsimmons> Rucknium[m]: Perfecr
22:04:24 <sgp_[m]> if you think it will go somewhere go for it
22:04:30 <sethsimmons> Sorry, haven't read it in a while
22:05:04 <dEBRUYNE> Normally the sticky spot is reserved for the release thread, but I presume that, given the included auto-updater, most people are aware a new release was published
22:05:26 <sgp_[m]> yeah release threads shouldn't be up forever :p
22:05:46 <sgp_[m]> only 7 days but still
22:05:55 <Rucknium[m]> Here is whet it says at the top of that post now:
22:05:55 <Rucknium[m]> EDIT: If you are interested in this initiative and/or want to contribute technical skills yourself, please sign up on the Monero Matrix server and join the #monero-recruitment room using these instructions.
22:06:27 <Rucknium[m]> ^ And it links to sgp's instructions for joining the Matrix server, which a lot of people already sucessfully used yesterday to jump on here.
22:07:37 <sgp_[m]> looks like a clear call to action
22:10:02 <dEBRUYNE> sethsimmons: Can you sticky the thread in place of the GUI thread?
22:10:53 <sethsimmons> dEBRUYNE: Will do shortly, away from comp ATM
22:11:00 <sethsimmons> Should be stickied within an hour.
22:11:06 <msvb-lab> Sgp's Matrix instructions are really good, thank you.
22:12:46 <xmrscott[m]> <dEBRUYNE> "Normally the sticky spot is..." <- And on the Linux side there's package managers. Can always unsticky and sticky release thread for a set time (e.g. 2 weeks) and then resticky the guide OP
22:13:10 <xmrscott[m]> If anyone still has reservations about release stickys
22:14:00 <sgp_[m]> I think at this point just change the sticky and no need to overthink it further :)
22:14:18 <sgp_[m]> with the call to action it makes sense