00:03:52 <endogenic> hang in there Rucknium[m] we appreciate you
01:17:10 <Rucknium[m]> endogenic: Thank you 🥰
04:05:20 <sgp_[m]> due to a last-minute schedule change, I need to delay the Monero Meet a week :'(
04:05:21 <geonic> remember, you only get one beef per week
04:05:35 <sgp_[m]> will help with scheduling in any case however
04:06:53 <geonic> btw the vtnerd jberman convo seems completely within bounds. a veteran dev bringing someone new up to speed. wish we'd see more of this.
07:55:47 <rottenstonks> https://jami.net/first-jami-beta-with-swarm-support/ xmrscott[m].
09:25:25 <Chamus> <Rucknium[m]> "I respond well when people recognize the limits of their own knowledge" - Do you try to apply that on yourself?, trying to recognise the limits of your own knowledge?
09:26:05 <Chamus> I wouldn't seem so with the amateur, unscalable, unsustainable recruiting approach you are pushing
09:26:19 <Chamus> A pro told you about it but you would not listen
09:27:04 <Chamus> Rucknium[m]> "I respond well when people recognize the limits of their own knowledge" <- So I was curious if you applied that on yourself, or only expect it from others
10:06:48 <carrington[m]> Chamus  please take your bovine produce to #monero-beef:monero.social 
10:22:40 <Chamus> lol
10:34:03 <msvb-lab> endogenic: I got your explanation about the design with closed access, thanks. It kind of makes sense but the gut feeling is of course quite bad when access is closed and a better (utopian) method is not found to protect secrets mixed with source and design.
10:35:10 <msvb-lab> And of course it reduces efficiency of researchers' time like jberman[m] probably experienced?
10:35:48 <msvb-lab> I hope I can make this happen, trying to open a big can of worms ohje ;)
10:36:04 <msvb-lab> Because we're not having enough drama at Monero central this week yet.
10:36:30 <msvb-lab> Whever we have only five times more drama than any other group, things become boring. We need 10+ times more drama please.
15:23:34 <sethsimmons> Excellent new intro to cryptocurrency security/secrecy from Techlore that has quite a large Monero spot/focus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdB4m1aAvOE
18:39:41 <nioc> We need more drama?
18:41:02 <nioc> Since I won't be able to attend tomorrow's community meeting can someone bring up the following....
18:42:13 <nioc> Why does monero talk say that their sponsor changenow is verified by the community?
18:42:27 <nioc> Did we do that?
18:43:21 <nioc> I can see why they say that for cake and Sweetwater aka Dr Daniel Kim
18:47:13 <endogenic> msvb-web: at present i cannot do anything about the source being closed but as long as decoy outputs are chosen on a server with no way to verify what code is being run then i dont think it matters if the mymonero server decoy outs code is published
18:47:26 <endogenic> well, it wouldnt necessarily matter
18:53:39 <geonic> nioc: I'm not sure how that applies to Sweetwater either. should the founder's reputation automatically transfer over to his company? how many people have used their services and are willing to vouch for them?
18:54:57 <nioc> Who is our head of verification?
18:55:07 <geonic> probably best if they just change the language
18:55:29 <geonic> bureau of verification*
18:56:13 <geonic> I'll ping Doug..
18:58:23 <plowsof[m]> reviews are a method of 'verification' and its an 'on-going process' (its just marketing talk) 
19:49:53 <sethsimmons> <nioc> "Why does monero talk say that..." <- It's, IMO, a poor way to phrase things that could be misleading.
19:52:02 <sethsimmons> What they should say is if they personally use it, why, and that the community commonly uses it or something.
20:00:13 <louis[m]> any cpu hosting service?
20:00:23 <louis[m]> I want to mine monero
20:03:03 <shoqwo1[m]> louis[m]: cloud providers ban you if you mine monero on them
20:03:38 <sethsimmons> Yeah, don't cloud mine.
20:03:49 <sethsimmons> https://sethforprivacy.com/guides/mining-monero/
20:05:54 <shoqwo1[m]> Seth: are node-node connections encrypted? I want to run a monero node on a network I know is monitored
20:06:19 <louis[m]> but I am a back packer,  no home 
20:07:15 <sethsimmons> shoqwo1[m]: You can run behind Tor if needed
20:08:33 <bob99[m]> Wasn't there a plan (long ago) to make the use of i2p default?
20:08:55 <Inge> shoqwo1[m]: AFAIK blocks are shared in the clear, but transactions would be sent over TOR
20:09:13 <Inge> I don't think there were realistic plans of synching over i2p/tor
20:10:28 <shoqwo1[m]> Seth: what is the reason behind not encrypting connections? It allows any network monitor do determine which transactions originate from which node. (using netflow data i.e https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg84yy/data-brokers-netflow-data-team-cymru)
20:11:06 <sethsimmons> It does not allow that, and encryption wouldn't remedy that entirely.
20:11:25 <vtnerd> shoqwoq1[m] I am working on that
20:11:49 <sethsimmons> And RPC connections are default SSL unless the client can't handle it.
20:12:10 <vtnerd> https://github.com/vtnerd/monero/blob/docs_p2p_e2e/docs/LEVIN_PROTOCOL.md#encryption
20:12:46 <shoqwo1[m]> Seth: could random padding to connections mitigate traffic analysis?
20:12:59 <shoqwo1[m]> vtnerd: nice, I will read
20:13:25 <vtnerd> yes, but it probably cannot hide Monero p2p traffic entirely given a determined attacker
20:13:54 <vtnerd> that proposal still has some randomized padding in it
20:14:50 <nioc> I just checked getmonero.org and changenow is one of 5 swappers listed so I thought maybe it was "verified by the community" but there is the disclaimer that it is for informational purposes only and it does not constitute an endorsement by the Monero community 
20:14:50 <vtnerd> the primary purpose is to make a regex difficult - if the community pushes for TLS/SSL instead then its less useful
20:15:03 <vtnerd> outside of hiding tx relays
20:15:36 <vtnerd> *regex difficult -> basic DPI engine trying to track monero p2p
20:22:40 <geonic> nioc: Doug invites you to Monerotopia tomorrow to char about it
20:22:59 <geonic> chat*
20:24:17 <nioc> I am busy this weekend and won't be available, even for the community meeting here.
20:24:48 <nioc> Maybe the community should decide 
20:25:46 <geonic> I guess the question then becomes whether the people in this channel constitute “the community” or how to judge consensus about something like that
20:27:08 <nioc> So people can say whatever they want
20:27:13 <geonic> to be fair to ChangeNow, I don’t know of any unresolved complaints against them. AFAIK they’ve returned the funds whenever they’ve shotgun-KYC’d someone and the person didn’t wish to comply
20:27:13 <nioc> Good to know 
20:27:22 <geonic> #permissionless
20:29:56 <nioc> Leaving now for a few days, have fun #monero-community 
20:30:32 <geonic> enjoy