05:35:02 <spirobel[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "anarkiocrypto:  I believe..." <- just because there has been talk does not mean it will be. I also think the argument is not really convincing. people pay for transactions in kb and its their own business what they put in there. they paid for it. nebulous arguments like "transaction uniformity" dont make much sense in this case. Because transaction uniformity of the average user is not harmed by people using tx_extra
05:35:02 <spirobel[m]> for other things. I think it could be used for a (domain) name system for example. Chat is impractical.  
05:53:55 <scip9[m]> <spirobel[m]> "just because there has been talk..." <- Any transaction that stands out hurts transaction uniformity of everyone.
06:08:40 <spirobel[m]> <scip9[m]> "Any transaction that stands..." <- people using the standard monero software to make transactions are not impacted in any way shape or form by a different kind of people that use different software that uses txextra to rent domain names. or sell tokens. the monero crowd still looks exactly the same. its just that a second crowd appears next to it and they both benefit. 
06:23:12 <scip9[m]> <spirobel[m]> "people using the standard monero..." <- Extra functions could syphon ppl away from standard monero software. 
06:23:52 <scip9[m]> And I am not sure how those functions have to rely on tx extra.
06:41:33 <Rucknium[m]> <spirobel[m]> "people using the standard monero..." <- I agree that just because it is being discussed doesn't mean it will actually be eliminated. However, your statement here is not really correct since all users use other transaction outputs as mixins. To the extent that certain tx uniformity defects can separate real spends from mixins, that affects the blockchain as a whole.
08:14:14 <spirobel[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "I agree that just because it..." <- but the solution to this is not to remove tx_extra. There are other things malicious or not malicious actors could do to reduce transaction uniformity. so the selection of the other transaction outputs should ensure that transaction uniformity is not violated. 
08:48:42 <carrington[m]> Any fun ideas for using tx_extra should be in some other mergemined chain, IMO. Monero outputs/transactions should be as homogeneous as possible for it to function as fungible money
08:50:51 <rbrunner> I am quite sure that as soon as somebody starts to use tx_extra in earnest for a sizable number of transactions opinion will finally sway decidedly towards eliminating it
08:51:33 <rbrunner> Right now it's something like a stalemate, but use / abuse will probably sway it
09:45:39 <Halver[m]> Why not simply limit the size of this `tx_extra` field ?
09:45:39 <Halver[m]> `if size(tx_extra) > 1KB reject tx`
09:51:56 <Chamus> <Rucknium[m]> "or would be able to understand them anyway" <- Man, why do you think you're so  special because you studied statistics?
09:52:12 <Chamus> For what is wirth
09:53:07 <Chamus> I offer to run two targeted searches for two PhD's in statistics that are certifiable better than Rucknium just so I do not have to put up with him telling us how great he is, how dumb we are, and how much we need him
09:54:12 <Chamus> If any of the people on MRL would like to help me define the ideal profile, I'll happily search until we on board two top academic researchers
09:54:17 <Chamus> Just let me know
09:55:25 <Chamus> <Rucknium[m]> "or would be able to understand them anyway" - Just keep in mind you're self-recruited talent, by definition the worst talent one can get
09:56:59 <Chamus> S don't get too cocky, Monero is a big deal and would have no problem attracting proper top talent with the right approach 
09:58:10 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Rucknium is fine, he donates his own time to help Monero and he isn't egoistic at all. Sure, more statisticians would be helpful, but Rucknium is a good guy and has skills.
09:58:49 <Chamus> I'm offerig to bring better guys with better skills
09:59:04 <Chamus> Ruck can stay under this plan, of course
09:59:06 <Chamus> :p
10:00:25 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Bring whoever you want. More people who care about Monero's technology & use cases as private, uncensorable, financially inclusive money is always good. But you don't need to personally insult Rucknium.
10:00:46 <Chamus> Where did I insult him?
10:01:26 <rbrunner> "certifiable better than Rucknium". How would that even work ...
10:02:10 <rbrunner> IMHO, with this "or would be able to understand them anyway" you are quoting out of context to paint them in a bad light
10:02:54 <rbrunner> "or would be able to understand them anyway" Are you a recruiter, in any case?
10:03:19 <rbrunner> Sorry, meant to copy this here: " I offer to run two targeted searches for two PhD's in statistics"
10:03:23 <Chamus> <rbrunner> "How would that even work", amount and quality of past research, number of papers publish, number of citations, years of experience, post docs,...
10:03:46 <Chamus> I am a headhunter, yes
10:04:04 <rbrunner> So Rucknium is not anonymous? Did I assume that too early?
10:04:12 <Chamus> He is
10:04:17 <Chamus> He is passive talent though
10:04:33 <Chamus> By definition we can get better than self recruited people
10:04:44 <anarkiocrypto[m]> > "so I do not have to put up with him", "the worst talent", "don't get too cocky"
10:04:44 <anarkiocrypto[m]> But I'm really not interested in arguments. Recruit whoever you want. More people in Monero is better for Monero, as long as they support Monero's ideals (privacy, censorship-resistance, financial inclusion).
10:04:45 <Chamus> We target instead, making the talent we bring way more relevant
10:04:49 <rbrunner> We can? Oh dear.
10:05:10 <Chamus> Yes, we just need to define the ideal profile
10:05:22 <rbrunner> I have a hunch that Chamus won't recruit anyone for working anywhere without pay ...
10:05:55 <rbrunner> Ah, oh, I get it. He is also "passive talent". Because, did anyone here call for a headhunter?
10:06:01 <Chamus> "1 great engineer is worth 100 average ones" / "1 great engineer is worth 100 average ones"
10:06:43 <Chamus> <rbrunner> "I have a hunch that Chamus won't recruit anyone for working anywhere without pay" <- Well clearly you should not to rush, you're not that good at it
10:07:12 <anarkiocrypto[m]> 100 average engineers is also good and it's better to try to not be dependent on one single individual. Monero is open source, anyone can contribute, it isn't a secret corporate project for insiders only.
10:07:34 <plowsof[m]> rbrunner: They can have a free wishlist 😄
10:07:42 <Chamus> I have already proposed a systematic way to turn Monero into a Talent Acquisition powerhouse, while solving descentralisation Justin wants for his fund, and allowing us to legally funel funding for development globally, and offer to run all that pro bono
10:08:08 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Then make your own alternative to CCS and it can run in parallel.
10:08:35 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Free market has competition and alternatives.
10:09:03 <Chamus> so curious <rbrunner> what of the things I said made you think I was looking to profiteer of Monero instead of volunteer work for many 10k's of dollars?
10:13:06 <Chamus> <anarkiocrypto[m]> "Then make your own alternative to CCS and it can run in parallel" - If there is one thing is not going to happen is me debating my way for the community to allow me to volunteer. I already presented my proposal. You can see that is clearly the only professional proposal. The other two drafts (Ruck's and Justin's oh-so-desired
10:13:06 <Chamus> development fund that he wants to run) are amateur, unviable, unsustainable, do not solve the problems we had with Sarang and are likely to score us mediocre talent at best
10:15:31 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Monero is open source, you don't need to ask anyone's permission to do something.
10:15:45 <Chamus> I need the support of the community to make it happen though
10:16:39 <Chamus> Amateur unviable proposals are sucking in all the support of the community, and I have no beef with that really. If they actually end up working and by chance attracting top talent, awesome!
10:16:57 <Chamus> Is not like I'm dying to donate 4-5 hours of work everyday to anyone
10:17:09 <Halver[m]> Chamus: So, begin being much more soft and polite as now.
10:17:09 <Halver[m]> As you are proceeding you'll just catch absolutely nobody.
10:17:45 <Chamus> My bad, I just saw to many instances of Ruck talking down on the rest of the community that I had to speak up
10:17:45 <Halver[m]> s/as/than/
10:18:51 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Then post your proposal to Reddit, Monero meetings, Twitter, etc. No one is censoring you. If there is demand in the community and free market, they will show it. You also don't need 100% support, even a smaller workgroup would help (easier to work with like-minded people than to try to make everyone happy).
10:19:19 <anarkiocrypto[m]> I never saw Rucknium insult anyone. He just wants to help and make Monero safer via his statistics contributions.
10:21:12 <Chamus> I said "talking down", not "insulting", why the need to twist the words?
10:21:44 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Talking down is a subset of insulting.
10:21:50 <Chamus> Not to me
10:21:54 <Chamus> I speak 6 languages
10:22:01 <Chamus> Apologies if my english is not super precise
10:22:13 <plowsof[m]> Talking down is disrespectful 
10:22:25 <Chamus> It is!
10:22:30 <rbrunner> " I have already proposed a systematic way to turn Monero into a Talent Acquisition powerhouse" Can I read up on this anywhere already?
10:22:47 <Chamus> Sure thing buddy
10:22:50 <Chamus> One sec
10:23:09 <anarkiocrypto[m]> 4 languages here, but doesn't matter. Talking down, insulting, disrespect, etc. isn't productive and drives people away.
10:23:56 <plowsof[m]> "amateur unviable proposals" , i feel attacked 
10:24:42 <rbrunner> If that's a counter in how many languages you can ruin a first impression, as dear Chamus right now is in danger of doing, it really does not matter.
10:24:49 <Chamus> Monero has everything it takes to become a global powerhouse in top-talent attraction, and the community should rush to capitalise on this potential.
10:24:49 <Chamus> The “ideal” legal structure for funnelling funding is possibly the biggest issue in the way of Monero development. Community funding should only get funnelled through non-for-profit vehicles. Period.
10:24:49 <Chamus> There’s no need for any “Monero development funds” managed by a board of a handful of elected members, and there is certainly no need to funnel CCS funding through for-profit entities like we tried to in the past.
10:24:49 <Chamus> I worked as a headhunter for the tech industry globally and for over a decade. I have been exposed to FLOSS and innovation management as well as with countless searches for technical profiles, and think there is a way in which which Monero could start embarking top talent sistematically 
10:25:53 <Chamus> The approach would look as follows:
10:25:53 <Chamus> 1. We interview Core Team members, MRL members and Top Monero Devs to see what are the most urgent, relevant, revolutionary research and features they could conceive Monero needs/could have if we only we had the right people working on it
10:25:53 <Chamus> 2. We decide talent needs on a per project basis and present CCS proposals for funding
10:25:53 <Chamus> 3. If proposal gets funded we go to the market and headhunt for the right talent to head the projects (I’d be happy to run these searches pro bono)
10:25:53 <Chamus> 4. If we're able to recruit the right talent (which we will if the budget is there) we open a “disposable” Estonian NGO (Estonia’s ease of compliance and “E-Residency” provide the ideal structure to funnel funding for such universal FLOSS Projects as Monero) that wil only serve to fund the salaries of the devs working on that one
10:25:53 <Chamus> particular CCS-funded project. Once the project is completed, the Estonian NGO gets forever shutdown. So not “the Monero Foundation” but disposable “monero foundations”, as to avoid centralisation.
10:25:53 <Chamus> 5. If we're unable to recruit (once again, unlikely if we have the budget), money goes back to donors
10:25:54 <Chamus> 6. Then we move to the next projects and follow steps 1-5 once again
10:26:22 <atomfried[m]> nobody wants to work for monero if the only thing you get is a lot of drama from a bitching community ...
10:26:58 <atomfried[m]> it is not like monero didnt attract talent in the past, but just lost them over fuckin drama and bullshit
10:28:00 <plowsof[m]> Chamus is the person who has deemed me unemployable because i dont have 10 years experience with a framework thats 3 years old ? 😁
10:28:11 <Chamus> hahaha
10:28:14 <Chamus> No, no
10:28:21 <Chamus> I'm a thoughtful headhunter :)
10:28:54 <atomfried[m]> also nobody wants to go though a fuckin 20 step procedure to just do stuff. the more Bureaucracy we add for anybody to get stuff done the less stuff will be getting done... thats my oppinion
10:28:54 <plowsof[m]> headhunter is a triggering word for 'cyberpunks' , glad you're a good one! 
10:29:26 <Chamus> Monero has a problem, I know how to solve it, and I want to help
10:29:36 <Chamus> Sorry if the way I make ends meet is disliked by you
10:30:24 <atomfried[m]> i am just saying what i think, not of your solution, but overall 
10:31:04 <Chamus> What do you mean?
10:31:28 <Chamus> Nobody wants to work for a corporation because they need to register and do paperwork first, you say?
10:32:22 <atomfried[m]> Chamus: no thats not what i said, i said the more bureaucracy, the less stuff is getting done
10:32:33 <Chamus> Nothing is getting done now
10:32:43 <Chamus> So we can't do much less than  now, really
10:32:52 <Chamus> In terms of talent acquisition
10:33:41 <atomfried[m]> Chamus: seraphis, p2p protocol rework, the decoy selection is reengineered, a hf is prepared with a larger ringsize + BP+, what are you talking about
10:34:17 <atomfried[m]> less stuff is getting done than some times ago, but imo thats because of the  increase in drama in the community
10:34:21 <atomfried[m]> atomfried[m]: thats just my feeling
10:34:35 <rbrunner> They are right insofar as no systematic talent acquisition is currently running, to my knowledge
10:35:03 <anarkiocrypto[m]> I don't see why you can't run your Estonian company route in parallel to CCS, Justin's idea, Plowsof's wishlists, etc.
10:35:03 <anarkiocrypto[m]> CCS is still necessary because it's KYC-free and has direct Monero payments (personally I'm not interested in taking anyone's money and if I would contribute to Monero it would be for free, but I am a full-stack web developer with 10 years experience, and wouldn't be able use your Estonian company route due to no ID or bank account).
10:35:03 <anarkiocrypto[m]> For non-pseudonymous devs who can pass KYC and want invoices, bank transfers, employment contracts, etc. your Estonian company route could be useful as an available alternative.
10:35:03 <anarkiocrypto[m]> IDK how much it costs for you. Maybe make a website with the details and potential Monero devs can contact you and arrange this Estonian company route on a per-project basis for a fee?
10:36:21 <Chamus> <atomfried[m]> "Chamus: seraphis, p2p protocol rework, the decoy selection is reengineered, a hf is prepared with a larger ringsize + BP+, what are you talking about" <- In terms of Talent Acquisition, I meant
10:36:27 <Chamus> You can read it above
10:37:09 <atomfried[m]> Chamus: ahhh ok i see
10:37:17 <Chamus> <atomfried[m]> "seraphis, p2p protocol rework, the decoy selection is reengineered, a hf is prepared with a larger ringsize + BP+, what are you talking about" <- If all those things are happening without any systematyc approach to Talent Acquisition in Monero, think were would be if we only had more great people working on it! ;)
10:37:18 <Halver[m]> Chamus: This is 1/ insulting 2/ shows clearly you don't follow closely all which is done (and wdoesn't help qualify you here)
10:37:40 <Halver[m]> s/wdoesn/doesn/
10:37:53 <rbrunner> "Estonian company route in parallel to CCS, Justin's idea, Plowsof's wishlists, etc" Yeah, I don't see how you can rally most of the community behind a single thing
10:38:05 <atomfried[m]> Chamus: we had a lot of great people working on things and lost them, the question is why they are gone and i think we should fix that
10:38:07 <rbrunner> It's just too wild a bunch, that community
10:38:13 <Chamus> Justin is centralised, he has absolute veto power and Magic only works with American Talent
10:38:29 <Chamus> While my approach is descentralised and global
10:38:34 <Chamus> Those are the main differences
10:38:42 <Chamus> Having a dictator calling shots or not having one
10:38:48 <Chamus> Do you really not like mine better?
10:39:04 <atomfried[m]> Chamus: depends on how efficient it is
10:39:25 <Chamus> Both proposals are on paper only
10:39:33 <Chamus> Which one has more merit, you reckon? ;)
10:40:54 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Both can run in parallel. Anything that requires KYC, company registration, banking, etc. is irrelevant to me personally  but I understand how it can help people who want a traditional employment/salary structure.
10:41:24 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Devs could choose to use Justin's US company, your EU company, CCS, Plowsof's wishlists, or their own funding models.
10:41:27 <Chamus> Defo man, the more people recruiting for Monero the absolute better!
10:41:37 <Chamus> Yes, agree
10:42:08 <atomfried[m]> allowing all kinds of funding models is also pretty decentralized :D 
10:42:16 <Chamus> Yes sir
10:42:18 <Chamus> I agree
10:43:25 <atomfried[m]> let the researchers and devs decide which funding model they want to choose 🚀
10:43:39 <Chamus> The thing is 
10:43:43 <Chamus> Once again
10:43:53 <Chamus> Only American researchers would get to choose
10:44:26 <Chamus> Global talent would need to be funded through the Estonian NGO 
10:44:30 <Chamus> Magic can't do that
10:44:36 <rbrunner> I am a little confused now, unfortunately. What is holding you up right now, Chamus? I mean, some worthwhile goal should not be too hard to find, and then go headhunting?
10:45:15 <anarkiocrypto[m]> If your EU companies are disposable, surely you only need to register it after you have found a dev for a project and discussed this model with them. You can start your idea now without "the community's backing", maybe make a Github Pages website for it, and market this as an alternative to CCS Monero payments for people who want a traditional employment structure. You don't need anyone's permission. Just advertise this option
10:45:15 <anarkiocrypto[m]> and individual devs can choose to work with you if they prefer this model.
10:45:26 <Chamus> The thick of the support went for Ruck's proposal, so I said I'd be stepping aside and offer again if alternative approaches did not work
10:46:01 <rbrunner> What is "Ruck's proposal"?
10:46:29 <Chamus> An approach that relies on the self-recruitment of anons who want to get paid in Monero
10:47:20 <Chamus> he wants to scale his very personal circumstances to a systematic recruitment approach
10:47:31 <rbrunner> Well, we do that basically since 2014, why this should now suddenly be "Ruck's proposal" and even hold you up?
10:47:32 <Chamus> The approach ignores many market realities, though
10:47:33 <Chamus> Many
10:48:18 <anarkiocrypto[m]> "Anons who want to get paid in Monero" is completely fine and in the spirit of Monero, cypherpunk and cryptocurrency. Meritocratic, accessible and not gatekept by state regulations such as KYC or company registration.
10:48:18 <anarkiocrypto[m]> You can offer your disposable Estonian companies today. Make a website for it, add a contact form, and you can work with individual devs on a per-project basis.
10:48:54 <Chamus> <anarkiocrypto[m]> "is completely fine and in the spirit of Monero, cypherpunk and cryptocurrency" <- Is that scalable though?
10:49:03 <Chamus> Those are the market realities that are being ignored
10:49:33 <rbrunner> I am still quite confused who you argue with here, and who you would like to convince to do what.
10:49:57 <Chamus> I'm not arguing with anyone?
10:50:38 <rbrunner> Replace that with "discussing".
10:50:56 <rbrunner> And "to do what" is anyway the core of my question :)
10:51:00 <Chamus> I'm answering all of y'alls questions on my proposal, that is it
10:51:03 <Chamus> I'm answering
10:51:07 <Chamus> Not arguing or discussing
10:51:22 <Chamus> To do what?
10:51:39 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Bitcoin has millions of users worldwide, software, wallets, platforms, markets, use cases, etc. and its founder was pseudonymous. Monero likewise has thousands of users and many pseudonymous devs and it works absolutely fine. There are also risks for KYC'ed devs. Even the "Western world" such as EU and USA is hostile toward Monero & working on private permissionless peer-to-peer cash could put a target on your back. If that's
10:51:39 <anarkiocrypto[m]> a decision you want to take, go ahead. If not, go for pseudonymous dev, as it has been working for Bitcoin since 2009.
10:51:43 <Chamus> For now, I'm gonna hold my proposal and re offer if alternative approaches do not work
10:51:45 <Chamus> As I said
10:51:48 <Chamus> What I do offer now
10:51:56 <rbrunner> Ok. Answering questions sounds good. Why don't you go ahead with your proposal. what is holding you up?
10:51:57 <Chamus> Is to run two searches for academic researches
10:52:10 <Chamus> If there is need and someone wants to step in and define the ideal profile
10:53:52 <Chamus> <rbrunner> - I do not think the proposal was popular enough to make it
10:54:15 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Launch it and people will contact you if there is demand.
10:54:16 <Chamus> So I will hold and re-offer if alternative approaches do not work
10:55:09 <anarkiocrypto[m]> If the companies are created on a per-project basis, costs should only materialize after you have found devs (and devs could pay a fee for the convenience of your company setup).
10:55:40 <Chamus> All that is up to discuss, I have no agenda really
10:55:51 <Chamus> But yes, see point 5 of my proposal
10:56:19 <rbrunner> "popular enough to make it" If we bring that down to Earth, do you think a corresponding CCS would not get funded?
10:56:37 <Chamus> Not without the support of figureheads
10:56:58 <Chamus> Go try and explain why an Estonian NGO is an ideal vehicle for this
10:57:12 <Chamus> See what kind of resistance you encounter :P
10:59:21 <rbrunner> Well, point 1. (coming up with a worthwhile project) and point 2. (setting up a CCS) do not seem overly hard for me, would not cost much to just try, seems to me.
10:59:34 <rbrunner> I have seen many surprises already with the Monero community
11:00:24 <anarkiocrypto[m]> That's the free market showing its demand. But there's no reason to not make a simple Github Pages website and offer your "CCS -> Estonian company" proxy service on-demand to devs who would otherwise want to work on Monero but would prefer a formal employment structure. It would be on a case-by-case basis with customized services per dev, not a universal solution for all devs.
11:00:49 <anarkiocrypto[m]> No need for figureheads. Monero is an open source project. No CEOs, no leaders, no one to ask for permission.
11:01:14 <Chamus> Is not an Estonian Company man!
11:01:18 <Chamus> Very important point!
11:01:31 <Chamus> Is a non-for-profit organisation in Estonia
11:01:33 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Estonian disposable NGO then
11:01:40 <rbrunner> Even better then?!?
11:01:58 <anarkiocrypto[m]> It's your project, advertise it how you wish.
11:02:04 <rbrunner> No, really there will *always* somebody who complains, whatever you do.
11:02:12 <Chamus> I know
11:02:15 <Chamus> To be honest
11:02:39 <Chamus> That is also why I am afraid to push it
11:02:52 <Chamus> I really do not have the will to debate my way so the community allows me to volunteer
11:03:32 <anarkiocrypto[m]> There is no "allowing" or "permission". Make a website, make a contact form, offer these services on-demand and people will take your offer if they are interested.
11:03:51 <Chamus> These are not on deman services man
11:04:06 <Chamus> This is a systematic, scalable and sustainable approach to Talent Acquisiton for Moneroç
11:04:07 <anarkiocrypto[m]> It is a disposable NGO per dev/per project.
11:04:13 <Chamus> Per project!
11:04:24 <Chamus> As a project might need an academic researcher and two devs maybe
11:04:36 <Chamus> I do not define that
11:04:44 <Chamus> Core and Top Devs would
11:04:57 <rbrunner> Now I oppose the use of a word: "debate". No need for debate. It's quite easy-going: The CCS will get funded, or it won't. See, wasn't hard? Nothing to be afraid of.
11:05:09 <Chamus> Haha
11:05:13 <Chamus> You good man ;)
11:05:51 <rbrunner> Really not sure how you mean that, but the core of my argument is dead serious.
11:06:02 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Yes, so it's unique per project, therefore on-demand. There is not a catch-all permanent organization like Justin's idea. So you can advertise this model now, and if a project is interested in using it, they will take your offer and you can register the disposable NGO.
11:06:09 <Chamus> Ah ok
11:06:32 <Chamus> Sorry, I thought you meant this would be a fixture offered to potential talent coming "on demand"
11:06:37 <Chamus> My bad english again :p
11:07:49 <anarkiocrypto[m]> No worries, I'm not a native speaker either. On-demand = you offer a custom solution per project after discussion with devs.
11:07:59 <Chamus> <rbrunner> "Really not sure how you mean that, but the core of my argument is dead serious" <- You're good as in "your a good peep for motivating me to do this"
11:08:10 <rbrunner> Ok :)
11:08:14 <Chamus> Haha
11:08:28 <Chamus> let me think about it, I would have to spend 20 hours on it weekly at least
11:08:31 <Chamus> I'm ready to do that
11:08:51 <Chamus> But since I'm ready to do that I really do not wish to have to debate my way, makes sense no?
11:08:56 <Chamus> I was working on this plan with Geonic
11:09:54 <Chamus> he offered to help me make this happening
11:10:02 <Chamus> Let me talk to him
11:10:09 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Charge the devs a convenience fee for the NGO registration/employment contract/salary via bank transfer, etc.
11:10:09 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Just write your idea. If the free market is interested, they will take your offer. If not, it's neither your fault nor their fault, just how the market is right now.
11:10:30 <Chamus> In the meantime, the offer for the two academic researchers is open if anyone is willing to define a blessed profile
11:11:08 <Chamus> <anarkiocrypto[m]> "it's neither your fault nor their fault, just how the market is right now" <- 100% agree man
11:11:20 <Chamus> I have zero emotional investment in this proposal 
11:11:42 <Chamus> I just love Monero and think I could help it, so I offered
11:11:44 <Chamus> :)
11:12:35 <Chamus> Will talk to geonic and get you back on this but if any of core, or MRL want to take me on my academic researcher search offer, just hit me up! :)
11:13:41 <Chamus> Now I'm off to enjoy my sunday
11:13:46 <Chamus> Have a blessed one y'all
11:17:30 <atomfried[m]> Chamus: enjoy 🙌
11:44:31 <carrington[m]> Chamus the first step of your plan is to interview devs and researchers to develop a talent profile. I would suggest just going ahead and doing that without asking permission. Most devs and researchers can be reached by a variety of platforms so you can contact them
11:51:49 <Save_G[m]> Hello good day 
11:51:50 <Save_G[m]> I'm looking for something that explains business owners on how to implement xmr to be accepted in their business with btc payserver for example or other ways for automating processes
11:51:50 <Save_G[m]> it should also include principles, economics, etc.. of Monero and how accepting btc puts the business and customers at risk because of the transparency.
11:51:50 <Save_G[m]> is there something like that in a website, document or copypasta form?
11:54:25 <carrington[m]> Save_G there is 
11:54:25 <carrington[m]> https://monerointegrations.com
11:54:25 <carrington[m]> But that doesn't have the second part of your requirements
11:54:59 <Save_G[m]> ok thank you very much
11:56:10 <Save_G[m]> I could send this combined with the /xmrgen/ infodump to people but it's currently down for maintenance 
12:44:26 <ajs_[m]> Chamus: Please be aware that non-profit companies are highly regulated enities and usally have strict accounting requirements. They are not as easy to manage as an LLC.
12:54:54 <ajs_[m]> Having a LLC doesn't necessarily mean you must operate the entity for a profit, it can have an altruistic aim.
13:00:10 <Chamus> <carrington[m]> "I would suggest just going ahead and doing that without asking permission. Most devs and researchers can be reached by a variety of platforms so you can contact them" <- I tried in the past. Contacted two top Monero devs for this, but was ignored. I know I should keep trying but, it takes a lot of motivation to go out of your way
13:00:10 <Chamus> to get people to allow you to volunteer
13:01:04 <Chamus> ajs_[m]> "Please be aware that non-profit companies are highly regulated enities" <- Are "highly regulated entities" in what jurisdictions you mean?
13:01:25 <Chamus> There's no where easier in the world to run both a company or a non-for-profit than in Estonia
13:01:47 <Chamus> Having said that community funding should only be funnelled to non-for-profit vehicles
13:02:02 <Chamus> Even more when it is super easy and straightforward to do it
13:02:44 <Chamus> Also this disposable organisations would be as straightforward as they come in terms of the already easy to comply-with legislation in Estonia
13:03:16 <Chamus> Once again, I have no emotional investment on this approach, I just doubt we will find a more effective one
13:05:30 <ajs_[m]> In most jurisdictions, non-profits are regulated more than LLCs. Just wanted to give you a heads up what potentially you are getting yourself into. Consultant with a Estonian lawyer and accountant to make sure you are "playing by the rules" 
13:05:41 <Chamus> Yes sir
13:05:52 <Chamus> This is something I have thought for long
13:06:04 <Chamus> And have experience starting organisations in several legislations
13:06:21 <Chamus> That's why I suggest Estonia
13:07:14 <Chamus> But you're right
13:07:45 <Chamus> in the US, and most elsewhere, it is a completely different ball game in terms of complexity
13:07:55 <Chamus> :)
13:44:38 <plowsof[m]> i did not require permission to create a wishlist, and begin a new funding experiment, lets see how it goes https://plowsof.github.io/
13:47:57 <plowsof[m]> We all should have them 👆️😁
14:00:37 <anarkiocrypto[m]> > actually i dont know what they think as nobody replies to my applications
14:00:37 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Sorry to hear this. :( Hope you can find some work for Monero and your wishlist will be successful. Maybe t.me/MoneroJobs, Microlancer.io, FreelanceForCoins.com can help. I learned programming over 10 years ago so IDK what are good guides nowadays but let me know if you need any technical help.
14:00:37 <anarkiocrypto[m]> One suggestion is a bounty website (reverse CCS) where people can suggest use cases and fundraise them, then devs can work on them. E.g. someone wants a Monero Etsy clone, makes a bounty and people donate to it. Then a dev sees that x people are interested in this idea and a x XMR payment is available. The dev develops the Etsy clone, uploads the source to Github and receives the Monero bounty.
14:00:37 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Sometimes it can be difficult as a dev to know what ideas would have market demand, have active users, or be profitable. Bounties show 1) what people want and 2) a way to fund development (so you don't work for free until it possibly becomes profitable or even used).
14:03:10 <Chamus> That is a crazy good idea man
14:03:29 <Chamus> Honestly
14:04:24 <Chamus> <anarkiocrypto[m]> "Sometimes it can be difficult as a dev to know what ideas would have market demand, have active users, or be profitable" <- Agree 100%
14:05:01 <plowsof[m]> Someone bought me a coffee 😭
14:07:18 <Chamus> <plowsof[m]> "New funding experiment" <- This is cool man!
14:07:45 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Maybe Plowsof's wishlist script and a Github page could be used for this bounty website idea and wanted use cases could be suggested via Github. Someone would need to custody the bounties until a dev has completed the work and released the source (I don't want to manage any funds personally).
14:08:16 <Chamus> Me neither if my proposal ever went through
14:08:46 <Chamus> But you guys might be unto something here!
14:08:50 <sethsimmons> > <@anarkiocrypto:halogen.city> 
14:08:50 <sethsimmons> > Maybe Plowsof's wishlist script and a Github page could be used for this bounty website idea and wanted use cases could be suggested via Github. Someone would need to custody the bounties until a dev has completed the work and released the source (I don't want to manage any funds personally).
14:08:50 <sethsimmons> A few of us are building a focused bounty/idea site and its close to being done, FWIW
14:08:58 <sethsimmons> Just finalizing a few details
14:09:20 <Chamus> That would be a crazy good source for development ideas
14:09:38 <sethsimmons> For proposing and helping to fund ideas around the Monero ecosystem outside of full CCS requests.
14:09:45 <Chamus> Glad y'all thought of it and are working on it!
14:09:49 <sethsimmons> But more details are coming
14:09:54 <Chamus> Cheers
14:10:10 <plowsof[m]> The hive mind at work 
14:10:24 <sethsimmons> Yup, been in the works a while but all of us have had things come up that has delayed a bit.
14:10:47 <sethsimmons> The actual site itself and tool are up and working, just defining scope and fund handling procedures is the trickier part.
14:11:07 <sethsimmons> I'm going to try and get it pushed through this week if I can get everyone together, its much needed.
14:11:08 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Good to hear Seth :)
14:14:15 <Halver[m]> > <@save_g:monero.social> Hello good day... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/a0cb4dcc942becaf9e0f11d5123665d258d528b9)
14:22:41 <plowsof[m]> ping monero observer?😁
21:07:34 <escapethe3ra[m]1> <sethsimmons> "> <@sethsimmons:monero.social> A..." <- Sounds very interesting. You can ping me when it's ready and I will post a report on Monero Observer. Seth 
21:09:59 <escapethe3ra[m]1> > <@anarkiocrypto:halogen.city> "Anons who want to get paid in Monero" is completely fine and in the spirit of Monero, cypherpunk and cryptocurrency. Meritocratic, accessible and not gatekept by state regulations such as KYC or company registration.
21:09:59 <escapethe3ra[m]1> > 
21:09:59 <escapethe3ra[m]1> > You can offer your disposable Estonian companies today. Make a website for it, add a contact form, and you can work with individual devs on a per-project basis.
21:09:59 <escapethe3ra[m]1> I can't agree more, so I won't. Love you anarkiocrypto
21:17:44 <atomfried[m]> whats your oppinion on this redesign?
21:17:44 <atomfried[m]> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/pr8x6v/a_redesign_concept_for_wwwgetmoneroorg/
21:26:29 <escapethe3ra[m]1> atomfried: well, I published a short report on that a few hours ago on Monero Observer. 
21:28:58 <escapethe3ra[m]1> s/atomfried: well, I published a short report on that a few hours ago on Monero Observer./atomfried: well, I published a short report on that a few hours ago on Monero Observer (https://www.monero.observer/getmonero-site-dark-theme-redesign-concept/)./
21:30:09 <escapethe3ra[m]1> Personally, otr I don't see any big issues with the current design.
21:31:36 <atomfried[m]> i quite like the new redesign because it looks exactly like the wallet darkmode
22:09:10 <Rucknium[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "Ok great. I have a little..." <- Chamus
22:09:38 <Rucknium[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "I may be overthinking it because..." <- Chamus
22:10:03 <Rucknium[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "Basically, I don't know how..." <- Chamus
22:10:44 <Rucknium[m]> Chamus ^ That is the full context of the quote that you took out of context. Now on to your other points:
22:14:57 <Rucknium[m]> <Chamus> "development fund that he wants..." <- Without anything more that the original post I made on Reddit happening, the following people have joined Matrix and offered to help:
22:15:15 <Rucknium[m]> (I'll break up their usernames with spaces so it doesn't ping them)
22:15:27 <Rucknium[m]> aharon ov_bohm ("physics graduate \[student\] (theoretical particle physics) with minors in computer science looking to contribute to monero")
22:15:32 <Rucknium[m]> d3n eon ("currently working on analysing a CoinJoin protocol of another cryptocurrency")
22:15:40 <Rucknium[m]> Duc kLuck ("At the moment no specific area of expertise, I am a computer engineering student...really love everything but don't know anything specifically.")
22:15:47 <Rucknium[m]> bost on101 ("My background is in data engineering/modeling and I work at a sports betting company (I dont watch sports so dont ask haha). Mainly experienced with Python, sql, and math.")
22:15:54 <Rucknium[m]> Cae sar ("data science undergrad...Programming languages: R,RStudio,Python,Tableau. Stat skills: Networking, Web scraping, APIs, basic analysis(linear, log multiple), possion regression, Prob theory, ML methods, optimization, Unsupervised learning techniques, big data storage computation and analysis, and to top it off alittle cli work with a supercomputer ")
22:16:01 <Rucknium[m]> ellp epe ("I'm decent in C# and Java, python and javascript")
22:16:08 <Rucknium[m]> mvsk okeboy ("I recently graduated with a degree in physics with an emphasis in astrophysics, and I have some coding experience")
22:16:14 <Rucknium[m]> saks hamio ("I'm applying to grad school....I'm currently a data scientist working in Pharma, Open to working on review papers")
22:16:21 <Rucknium[m]> ta nvir ("Hi, monero noob here but i can math and i wanna help")
22:16:28 <Rucknium[m]> vall drac ("Hi, molly.im lead developer here.I've a proposal for the Monero community...We're looking to develop and deploy our own backend and build a better Signal: anonymous identities (no more phone numbers), decentralized, and resistant to traffic analysis") Unclear if they saw  my Reddit post, but they joined around the same time that others who answered the post did.
22:16:37 <Rucknium[m]> comp ilomatic ("CompSci undergrad from Switzerland here...I have advanced experience (descending order) in Java, C#, Rust (new favorite), Java(/Type)Script, and some experience in C, C++ and Ruby.")
22:16:44 <Rucknium[m]> mone ro-marc ("I just joined the crypto space about 3 months ago. I just started my junior year in college, and my major is Computer Science. I am fairly new to the crypto space and Monero is by far my favorite project (it is easily the most undervalued crypto in my opinion).... It is my dream to become a full-time monero developer once I graduate in 2 years, but I want to contribute part-time right now with any free-time that I
22:16:44 <Rucknium[m]> have.")
22:17:41 <Rucknium[m]> ^ That is 12 people right there and nothing in the sketch of the plan has been done. Of course, matching people to specific tasks and then getting a time commitment is another hurdle to overcome, but I think we can get there
22:18:21 <Rucknium[m]> Chamus: If you do want to recruit two people with Ph.D.s in statistics, I have a profile for you:
22:18:43 <Rucknium[m]> First, look for people who do applied statistics rather than theoretical statistics.
22:19:21 <Rucknium[m]> Then look for people that can do one or more of the following three things:
22:20:28 <Rucknium[m]> 1) Someone who can analyze what is suggested in Section 6.1 of this paper  and develop improvements to it. I am doing exactly that, but it would be good to have someone else develop something independently and/or review what I have developed :  https://www.sciendo.com/article/10.1515/popets-2018-0025
22:21:30 <Rucknium[m]> 2) In the same paper, someone who can analyze the suggestion in Section 6.2 for its resistance to statistical attack, how it might be implemented, and further pros and cons.
22:21:51 <atomfried[m]> i cant seem to find the monero-recruitment room here in matrix, can anybody link it?
22:22:25 <Rucknium[m]> 3) Someone who can analyze the viability of the "partitioning" approach outlined here. Same thing: resistance to statistical attack, implementability, further pros and cons: https://www.sciendo.com/article/10.2478/popets-2021-0047
22:22:38 <Rucknium[m]> atomfried:  #monero-recruitment:monero.social 
22:23:49 <Rucknium[m]> Chamus:  I am really starting to doubt my initial assumption that you are acting in good faith.
22:56:46 <Chamus> Rucknium[m]> "is another hurdle to overcome" <- Yes sir, before that hurdle it is all meaningless though
22:57:49 <Chamus> <Rucknium[m]> I am really starting to doubt my initial assumption that you are acting in good faith <- Makes no difference to me, really
22:58:32 <Chamus> <Rucknium[m]> "Then look for people that can do one or more of the following three things" <- This is extremely useful though, thanks
23:00:05 <Chamus> Will review and follow up with questions when they pop up