00:00:15 <bob99[m]> bob99[m]: I really like your idea, but is the work worth the effort?
00:00:32 <bob99[m]> s/effort/result/
00:01:35 <Rucknium[m]> bob99: I think many surveillance apps are combining messaging and payment. It's not clear if this is due to user demand, but it would be good to have an anti-surveillance alternative to this pairing of functionality.
00:02:40 <pigeons> Now that they are seemingly monetizing via their interest in mobilecoin they might not like compettion
00:02:58 <valldrac[m]> entry1[m]: The app will allow to sign up to either Signal network or Molly network, but not at the same time. When registered to Signal, they would be able to chat with contacts in Signal but not in Molly. The network won't be federated. Maybe in the future we can make Molly to keep connections to both networks simultaneously 
00:04:21 <valldrac[m]> bob99[m]: I tried to respond to this in adding a couple of comments to the merge request
00:04:50 <valldrac[m]> <pigeons> "What do you use for your User..." <- Same user agent as Signal
00:05:22 <Rucknium[m]> I'd say WeChat, iMessage/ApplePay, and WhatsApp fall into this category of payment/messaging combined apps. And of course now Signal itself with MobileCoin.
00:06:04 <pigeons> anyway i don't think "technically not possible to ban" is accurate. They don't care enough yet, and yes you could cat-and-mouse their enforcement mechanism and they could change it again, but that's no fun
00:08:00 <entry1[m]> <valldrac[m]> "The app will allow to sign up to..." <- Thanks for your response and work
00:30:17 <valldrac[m]> <pigeons> "Now that they are seemingly..." <- Yeah, this is a risk we're taking 
00:31:33 <valldrac[m]> s/network/networks/
00:34:38 <valldrac[m]> <pigeons> "anyway i don't think "technicall..." <- I still believe they can't, but I'll change it just in case I'm wrong 😕
00:41:58 <valldrac[m]> > it is believed is not technically feasible to ban Molly from the Signal servers without banning also all devices without Google GMS services
00:42:14 <valldrac[m]> pigeons: 👆️
00:46:12 <valldrac[m]> * this in the merge request, adding a
01:25:19 <crypto_grampy[m]> <valldrac[m]> "> it is believed is not technica..." <- Why would a device not want to have GMS
01:25:22 <crypto_grampy[m]> 🤡
01:27:34 <crypto_grampy[m]> Excited about the proposal valldrac .  If monero is good money, people should be able to integrate it however and wherever they want, including in-messenger payments... This will be a very refreshing new use case imo 
02:59:20 <ajs_[m]> selsta Session development is financed by dodgy Monero fork with a large premine and dev tax
03:02:12 <ajs_[m]> It is also administered by a "shell" foundation in a five eyes jurisdiction
03:15:31 <selsta> I'm aware if that, but I'm interested in technical differences.
04:04:03 <xmrscott[m]> Not only that, but in Australia which has arguably more notorious for anti-encryption laws rep than even the US
04:05:09 <crypto_grampy[m]> Bitcoin.org got hacked fyi all
04:05:20 <crypto_grampy[m]> You won't get double what you send
04:06:00 <xmrscott[m]> lol the double scam making a come back
04:40:47 <runfox> how could I connect my monero gui to my btcpay server's monero node?
07:21:35 <valldrac[m]> <selsta> "I'm aware if that, but I'm..." <- Then your question could have be more specific 😉 Just joking. Give me some time and I will reply with some insights comparing security and privacy 
13:16:50 <selsta> test
13:17:32 <Inge> test failed
13:17:49 <selsta> seems like it really did fail :S
13:17:59 <Inge> feel the love <3
13:19:05 <selsta> that's annoying
13:19:12 <selsta> sethsimmons: not fixed yet
13:20:52 <sethsimmons> selsta: Sigh
13:21:04 <selsta> it's what the #libera-matrix bridge suggested
13:21:11 <selsta> so either we did it wrong or it's not the correct fix
13:22:26 <Inge> Guacomo: "If these leaks are to be believed, Monero is worse than Wasabi (65% relinked vs 60% relinked for Wasabi)"
13:22:46 <Inge> Seems like a far too simplistic statement, but it will filter out there for a while
13:24:08 <selsta> He can't read the slides.
13:24:30 <selsta> 65% of cases (not transactions) had a "lead", that doesn't mean that they have anything linked
13:24:37 <selsta> a lead can be a IP address
13:24:39 <selsta> or even less
13:25:21 <selsta> meanwhile 60% are linked for Wasabi
13:26:19 <Inge> and Jimmy is waay out there. Saying it is difficult to run a monero node, and the blocks are huge because of all the privacy stuff
13:26:23 <Inge> SMH
13:27:25 <sethsimmons> Inge: Some idiotic new podcast, or what?
13:27:35 <Inge> just Tone doing Bitcoin Brief right now
13:27:49 <sethsimmons> lol
13:27:52 <sethsimmons> why waste your time
13:27:54 <selsta> why would you watch tone lol
13:27:54 <selsta> yea
13:27:56 <sethsimmons> It's pure noise
13:27:58 <Inge> ahahaa
13:28:00 <anarkiocrypto[m]> It most likely uses metadata from exchanges (both full doxxes from KYC exchanges & IP addresses/addresses/amounts from accountless exchanges) and block explorers, no attack on Monero's cryptography.
13:28:12 <Inge> you guys are harsh. Tone is pretty decent on trading - but the rest is just noise.
13:28:15 <mechanic41turk[m> <Inge> "Seems like a far too simplistic..." <- he has a simple mind.
13:28:31 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Wasabi's problems are nothing new: https://monero-head.medium.com/wasabi-wallet-mixing-is-broken-566f3726ff45
13:28:34 <Inge> But it is interesting to be reminded how little people who know a LOT about one blockchain really have only cursory information about other blockchains
13:28:43 <sethsimmons> Inge: No one respects his views on anything else, and few even do on trading
13:28:53 <sethsimmons> Not concerned with his noise causing issues broadly.
13:29:05 <sethsimmons> Inge: Inge: They know very little about even Bitcoin
13:29:19 <sethsimmons> That is a group of three influencers, not devs and not educators.
13:29:24 <mechanic41turk[m> Inge: running a monero node is easier than running a btc one.
13:29:25 <Inge> I don't think you can say Jimmy Song knows very little about bitcoin
13:29:35 <sech1> "influencers" are cancer
13:29:36 <Inge> mechanic41turk[m: You don't need to tell me. I run both
13:29:46 <sethsimmons> They live to promote their brand, not anything good.
13:29:49 <mechanic41turk[m> Inge: I was addressing the lurkers.
13:30:01 <sethsimmons> Inge: He either knows very little or willingly lies to mislead.
13:30:07 <sethsimmons> Both are bad, the second is malicious.
13:30:17 <sethsimmons> He just cares about NgU and promoting himself.
13:31:24 <mechanic41turk[m> sech1: they are more like propagandists.
13:31:39 <Inge> promoting liquid for privacy?? heh.
13:31:48 <mechanic41turk[m> these figures gotta "nudge" people with less understanding of technical topics surrounding crypto currencies.
13:46:21 <ComplyLast> sethsimmons, Tone Vays was shamed by some monero folks at HCPP a couple years ago
13:46:59 <sethsimmons> Shamed how, and why?
13:47:07 <ComplyLast> his understanding of bitcoin is akin to functional analphabetism 
13:47:31 <ComplyLast> he had some weird idiotic theoris about pow
13:47:35 <ComplyLast> and how bitcoin created pow
13:47:37 <ComplyLast> etc
13:47:42 <ComplyLast> just you run of the mil dumbass
13:50:48 <mechanic41turk[m> lol
13:51:13 <nioc> ComplyLast: ty, I have never seen that word used before :)
13:51:25 <ComplyLast> which word?
13:51:33 <sethsimmons> Yeah that was a new one for me haha
13:51:35 <sethsimmons> TIL
13:51:43 <ComplyLast> which word?
13:51:44 <nioc> the big one
13:51:50 <sethsimmons> "analphabetism"
13:51:50 <ComplyLast> dumbass?
13:51:58 <ComplyLast> is that not a word?
13:52:06 <ComplyLast> did I made it up?
13:52:19 <sethsimmons> The issue I have with him is not that he's a "dumbass", but that he chooses to act as if he has a deeper understanding than he does to the detriment of his audience.
13:52:43 <sethsimmons> I have heard "dumbass" before 😅
13:52:53 <ComplyLast> sorry iuf i made that word up
13:52:56 <ComplyLast> I'm a creative guy
13:53:18 <ComplyLast> seems legit though
13:54:29 <ComplyLast> you just described most maximalism in a nutshell though
13:54:33 <ComplyLast> that's how it rolls
13:55:50 <Rucknium[m]> Dunning-Kruger
13:56:52 <ComplyLast> <Inge> Guacomo: "If these leaks are to be believed, Monero is worse than Wasabi (65% relinked vs 60% relinked for Wasabi)"
13:56:52 <ComplyLast> <Inge> Seems like a far too simplistic statement, but it will filter out there for a while
13:57:02 <ComplyLast> yes a lead might be an IP or even less
13:57:31 <ComplyLast> and the difference might stem from completely passive observation (on btc) to very active poisoned output stuff on Monero
13:57:35 <ComplyLast> so it's not apples to apples
13:57:36 <anarkiocrypto[m]> IP not even from Monero's blockchain but from a compliant exchange or honeypot blockexplorer...
13:58:05 <anarkiocrypto[m]> I don't think it is as serious as poisoned outputs.
13:58:15 <ComplyLast> I'm sure they do that
13:58:28 <ComplyLast> on certain cases at least
13:58:45 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Even then, a few churns over some hours/days would fix that.
13:58:55 <ComplyLast> sure
13:59:02 <anarkiocrypto[m]> They didn't break Monero's cryptography or decoy selection.
13:59:03 <ComplyLast> some bible sales people might not do it though
14:00:13 <anarkiocrypto[m]> And if you use a KYC-free exchange, you decrease the attack vectors (no permanent log of TXs/withdrawals connected to full name, photo, home address, government ID).
14:00:15 <ComplyLast> churning in general is not as well documented as it should be
14:00:35 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Maybe there could be a (single input) churn button in Monero's GUI.
14:00:51 <ComplyLast> I fully agree
14:00:57 <ComplyLast> like it exists on feather already
14:01:01 <ComplyLast> but fees need to higher
14:01:06 <anarkiocrypto[m]> I churn since 2016... it's just sending funds back to yourself or to a completely separate new wallet. But be careful if you have multiple inputs.
14:01:07 <ComplyLast> fees are irresponsibly low
14:01:27 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Fees are fine. Miners still want to mine blocks.
14:01:47 <ComplyLast> miners will always want to mine blocks
14:01:58 <ComplyLast> security budget is different though
14:02:24 <ComplyLast> and fees being so low incentivizes really cheap spam attacks
14:04:03 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Shouldn't make it too expensive. E.g. $5/tx would make small purchases difficult (e.g. VPS/gift cards/etc., and for daily purchases in the future if cash is restricted and all contactless payments require KYC).
14:04:38 <ComplyLast> there's a big range between current fees and 5$ tx :P
14:05:06 <nioc> AIUI the PR to increase fees is ready to be merged  
14:05:08 <nioc> a 4 or 5x increase which is still low
14:05:17 <ComplyLast> yup
14:05:53 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Also don't want to make churns too expensive, since they are important for real life safety reasons, and people who need safety can't necessarily afford high fees. (Unlike for example Wasabi's minimum 0.1 BTC "mix".)
14:06:18 <anarkiocrypto[m]> > there's a big range between current fees and 5$ tx :P
14:06:18 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Sure, I just remember Bitcoin's $10 fees...
14:06:26 <Rucknium[m]> Current minimum fees are still much less than a USD cent, I believe.
14:06:49 <anarkiocrypto[m]> For Monero, it's around 0.2 cents which is good.
14:07:44 <Rucknium[m]> See the MRL discussion from yesterday, which discusses the July-August transaction volume anomaly and its implications:
14:07:44 <Rucknium[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/611#issuecomment-925156834
14:08:52 <ComplyLast> thanks Rucknium[m] 
14:20:25 <Inge> looking forward to the report
14:26:01 <Rucknium[m]> Is it turns out, my comments here were somewhat prophetic: "It makes it more difficult, but I have some ideas about some statistical tests I could try. I suspect certain behavior will have a distinct statistical signature."
14:26:03 <Rucknium[m]> *  As it turns out...
14:26:07 <Rucknium[m]> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/pe4qto/comment/hav2i9r/
14:27:35 <Inge> Looking forward to hearing more about *that* story too, when it becomes prudent to do so
14:27:43 <Rucknium[m]> The anomalous transactions have 5 specific characteristics that "fingerprint" them.
14:28:17 <Rucknium[m]> Inge: Which story?
14:29:40 <freestatemag[m]> Greetings, new here... how is everyone doing this fine morning
14:30:50 <freestatemag[m]> I'm actuallly curious as to where the best place to pick up some monero is? uniswap maybe
14:31:30 <ComplyLast> uniswap is a very bad place to do it
14:31:32 <sethsimmons> Can't get it in Uniswap.
14:31:40 <ComplyLast> you can only get wXMR there
14:31:43 <sethsimmons> LocalMonero, Bisq, fixedfloat.com, sideshift.ai, kraken.com are all good options
14:32:02 <sethsimmons> * LocalMonero.co, Bisq,
14:32:08 <freestatemag[m]> ahh, ok I have a kraken account I belive...
14:32:32 <sethsimmons> s/LocalMonero, Bisq, fixedfloat.com, sideshift.ai, kraken.com are all good options/LocalMonero.co, bisq.network, fixedfloat.com, sideshift.ai, kraken.com are all good options/
14:33:01 <freestatemag[m]> is https://www.getmonero.org/ the best place to learn more about the wallets/protocols/ all that good stuff reguarding xmr?
14:33:05 <Inge> Rucknium[m]: about your statistical analysis
14:33:18 <ComplyLast> freestatemag[m], yes
14:33:35 <Inge> freestatemag[m]: there is also the Mastering Monero book and the Zero To Monero book - depending upon how deep you want to dive in .
14:35:53 <Rucknium[m]> Inge:  Oh, well, the forthcoming blog post will explain our methodology in detail. Uh, I just counted and we have 32 graphs as of now 😬
14:36:16 <ComplyLast> reddit, irc and monero stackexchange are also good sources freestatemag[m] 
15:35:09 <mechanic41turk[m> <anarkiocrypto[m]> "Maybe there could be a (single..." <- I think monerujo is going to introduce some churning function.
15:35:24 <mechanic41turk[m> see the PocketChange section: https://funding.monerujo.app/
15:35:54 <mechanic41turk[m> effectively is a self-spend, and can act as "churning".
15:36:15 <sethsimmons> PocketChange isn't for churning, it's for creating spending denominations of outputs, but could double as a way to churn I guess.,
15:36:28 <sethsimmons> It more solves the 10block lock problem for users, not churning really.
15:36:37 <mechanic41turk[m> yeah, I agree.
15:36:46 <mechanic41turk[m> mechanic41turk[m: .
15:41:19 <m2049r[m]> Monurujo does have a churn button sortof. Spend to yourself and use the infinity icon instead of an amount to send all funds - fee.
15:43:17 <Rucknium[m]> m2049r: That's re-combining outputs, though, which isn't the best idea
15:44:02 <anarkiocrypto[m]> I like to have one input only... But for mobile wallets it makes sense to have multiple inputs available for quick TXs.
15:44:04 <anarkiocrypto[m]> s/I like to have one input only... But for mobile wallets it makes sense to have multiple inputs available for quick TXs./I like to have only one input per wallet... But for mobile wallets it makes sense to have multiple inputs available for quick TXs./
15:46:03 <anarkiocrypto[m]> AFAIK monero-cli has sweep_single. Would just need to make a button for this in the GUI wallet (maybe under an "Advanced" menu) and advertise this as a churn feature.
15:46:08 <m2049r[m]> Rucknium: isn't that what churning is?
15:46:38 <anarkiocrypto[m]> It's safer to churn one input at a time.
15:49:04 <i_fucking_give_u> if i were to send entire wallet balance to one of its sub-addresses would this have effect of "updating" block restore height?
15:49:04 <Rucknium[m]> I'm not an expert of churning (yet), but I agree with anarkiocrypto . Re-combining lots of outputs will make your transactions stick out on the blockchain, at a minimum, since your transaction would have a high number of inputs, which is unusual.
15:49:23 <Rucknium[m]> * expert on churning...
15:51:15 <anarkiocrypto[m]> > if i were to send entire wallet balance to one of its sub-addresses would this have effect of "updating" block restore height?
15:51:15 <anarkiocrypto[m]> You can send it to the main address, it will create a new transaction (churn) and you can restore from this new block height.
15:58:31 <i_fucking_give_u> noted, thanks
16:05:35 <bevanoff[m]> @anarkiocrypto if somebody draws up what the ideal UI would look like in the GUI that would be a good starting point if you wanna see it actually implemented
16:06:22 <bevanoff[m]> Maybe it’d be best for some kind of MRL approval before actually going ahead with it though
16:10:33 <anarkiocrypto[m]> > I'm not an expert of churning (yet), but I agree with anarkiocrypto . Re-combining lots of outputs will make your transactions stick out on the blockchain, at a minimum, since your transaction would have a high number of inputs, which is unusual.
16:10:33 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Not sure about this, but there could be a danger if the churn tx uses inputs that you received from multiple people and these people collude (of course 10 decoys per input helps to protect against this).
16:12:33 <Rucknium[m]> <bevanoff[m]> "Maybe it’d be best for some kind..." <- I think it may be a good MRL goal to formally analyze churning. I think some work has already been done, but things may need to be pushed further.
16:14:07 <anarkiocrypto[m]> 1/11 is low for some opsec needs... you need higher plausible deniability for safety, therefore churns are useful.  Research about safety and effectiveness of churns would be useful.
16:19:58 <anarkiocrypto[m]> > @anarkiocrypto if somebody draws up what the ideal UI would look like in the GUI that would be a good starting point if you wanna see it actually implemented... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/ae3a4d9da80592dc395fcadad5f7755002fb31a8)
16:28:06 <runfox> Hey can someone help me troubleshoot connecting monero gui wallet to my monero node on my BTCPay server over tor?
16:31:21 <runfox> I have been trying to follow this user guide:https://www.getmonero.org/resources/user-guides/remote_node_gui.html
16:32:20 <anarkiocrypto[m]> What error do you see?
16:33:05 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Enter the IP address or onion of your BTCPay server (or wherever you run monerod) and the port which is generally 18081 or 18089.
16:33:28 <anarkiocrypto[m]> In Settings -> Node -> Remote node
16:34:24 <runfox> I have entered onion:18081 and it just remains disconnected, i also tried on clearnet with ip and it still wouldn't copnnect. Doea BTCPay use a different port than the common default of 18081?
16:36:13 <anarkiocrypto[m]> To use Tor, run "torsocks ./monero-wallet-gui" or go to "Settings -> Interface -> SOCKS5 proxy" and enter IP 127.0.0.1 Port 9050. Alternatively use Whonix or Tails.
16:36:48 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Never used BTCPay but will check what port it uses. Maybe your node isn't accepting connections outside of localhost?
16:39:16 <runfox> Not sure, i am going to try what you suggest for tor and see if it lets me connect 
16:39:33 <anarkiocrypto[m]> If you are using Docker maybe you need this:
16:39:33 <anarkiocrypto[m]> > opt-monero-expose (opens new window) to expose monero node's RPC port at 127.0.0.1:18081 to connect your own wallet. Use f.e. ssh port forwarding to forward to your own computer.
16:39:54 <anarkiocrypto[m]> https://docs.btcpayserver.org/
16:43:00 <runfox> Ok, great, i will take a look at the docs! Thanks, this is helpful!
18:03:53 <Inge> speaking of the leaked slides and mo ero claims, here is a good place to inject some facts: https://twitter.com/ChrisBlec/status/1441054982598389760
18:05:05 <bevanoff[m]> What are the transaction ids for? Does that reference an output you own that you want to churn? What if you own more than one output in the tx? Wouldn’t churning them together then be bad?
18:06:34 <bevanoff[m]> Excuse my ignorance, I’ve never actually used this wallet functionality before
18:07:30 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Txid = which input you want to churn. If you own multiple inputs in 1 tx, I guess you can additionally label each input. E.g. if inputs 1, 3 and 5 belong to you:
18:07:30 <anarkiocrypto[m]> 1/abcdef123456 0.0123 [Churn]
18:07:30 <anarkiocrypto[m]> 3/abcdef123456 3.45 [Churn]
18:07:30 <anarkiocrypto[m]> 5/abcdef123456 0.5 [Churn]
18:08:03 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Once you churn one of these single inputs, you will get a fresh txid with 1 input.
18:11:30 <anarkiocrypto[m]> s/Once you churn one of these single inputs, you will get a fresh txid with 1 input./Once you churn one of these single inputs (e.g. 0.5 XMR), you will get a fresh txid that contains 1 input (0.5 XMR - fee)./
19:22:58 <bevanoff[m]> Does feather already support this? I hear they have better coin (output) control
19:27:13 <sethsimmons> bevanoff[m]: Yes, you can right click on coins and send to self + break up into multiple outputs if desired
19:27:17 <sethsimmons> Works great and has for ages :)
19:28:27 <mechanic41turk[m> <anarkiocrypto[m]> "I like to have only one input..." <- Yeah. Waiting 20 mins before making another spend on a mobile wallet is a bit constraining.
19:28:47 <mechanic41turk[m> Think about you are at hcpp conference and you are buying drinks and then a hotdog.
19:29:07 <mechanic41turk[m> 20 mins apart.
19:29:17 <selsta> it's 20 minutes per output, not per transaction
19:29:24 <selsta> if you have multiple outputs in your wallet it should be fine
19:29:28 <selsta> but yes, it's not ideal
19:29:44 <mechanic41turk[m> generally I have a single utxo in my monerujo wallet
19:29:56 <mechanic41turk[m> which always composes my spends as 1 in 2 out
19:30:09 <mechanic41turk[m> that causes me to wait 20 minutes before making another spend.
19:30:31 <mechanic41turk[m> monerujo doesn't have kind of utxo selection options like Samourai Wallet has.
19:30:34 <sethsimmons> Why do you both only keep one input at a time?
19:30:56 <mechanic41turk[m> I don't deliberately keep 1 input.
19:30:57 <bevanoff[m]> sethsimmons: If feather has it then is there actually any value in adding it to the core GUI?
19:31:09 <mechanic41turk[m> The wallet itself handles the utxo selection and transaction building.
19:31:15 <mechanic41turk[m> That process is totally opaque to me.
19:31:16 <sethsimmons> mechanic41turk[m: Ah
19:31:42 <sethsimmons> bevanoff[m]: It's debatable, and churning hasn't been natively added because it's not well researched.
20:09:43 <Rucknium[m]> Is anyone aware of any data on the proportion of DeFi activity that actually feeds into investment in the real economy? My impression is that it's mostly speculation stacked on top of speculation.
21:07:16 <midipoet> Rucknium[m]: my cursory understanding of DeFI just frames it as a marketing facade that convinces the market that speculation plus hyperinflation is palatable.  
21:16:39 <Rucknium[m]> It just feels like financial derivatives by another name.