01:48:30 <plowsof[m]> https://imgur.com/UyzNFVF 👀
02:18:46 <crypto_grampy[m]> <plowsof[m]> "https://imgur.com/UyzNFVF 👀" <- What you cooking up plowsof 
02:19:28 <plowsof[m]> trying to make the 'monerodevs .org' website with projects / their related devs 
04:55:56 <Inge> all is not well in LN land https://twitter.com/francispouliot_/status/1442827924462358529?s=19
05:01:43 <Rucknium[m]> Inge: Things have never been well in LN land. It's just that until now not many people have tried to use it. Peter Rizun of Bitcoin Unlimited has done some fantastic work examining the shortcomings of Lightning. One of his articles:
05:01:43 <Rucknium[m]> https://medium.com/@peter_r/the-answer-to-yesterdays-lightning-network-quiz-was-a-1-coin-d8125c056758
05:26:27 <Inge> cool
05:32:55 <Mumuks> So it is finally going public that LN is a no go?
05:34:53 <Rucknium[m]> If i understand things correctly, the problem that LN attempts to solve is NP-hard.
05:38:16 <Rucknium[m]> Some good discussion here
05:38:16 <Rucknium[m]> https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/97qg8l/can_someone_explain_how_the_lightning_network/
06:27:02 <Rucknium[m]> (Sorry if I am I belaboring the point) Here is some very recent discussion of LN's NP-hardness, based on research by a PhD student: https://www.mail-archive.com/lightning-dev⊙llo/msg02456.html
06:29:59 <sech1> NP-hard doesn't necessarily mean impossible to solve. Almost perfect heuristics are known for many NP-hard problems
06:36:17 <Rucknium[m]> sech1: True. In practice, it looks like whatever heuristics LN is using are failing now that substantial adoption is underway. A whole national government bet on LN and now chickens are coming home to roost.
06:37:43 <sech1> That specific post is about cheapest route for a LN transaction. Selecting not cheapest route is not failing, they're failing somewhere else
06:38:16 <sech1> no idea what's happening there actually
06:39:21 <Rucknium[m]> LN fees are going to rise as the major "hubs" start to recover their opportunity cost of having at that BTC liquidity locked up instead of earning interest on some DeFi/CeFi platform, anyway.
07:07:01 <Rucknium[m]> So, in other words, if the computer science doesn't kill LN, the economics will.
07:52:20 <Mumuks> Also, LN has other issues. Once a node becomes important, how does it avoid government regulation. It would be trivial for govs to impose KYC and others in LN nodes, and then why use btc instead of your bank?
12:50:33 <gingeropolous> good grief. the governance link in https://messari.io/asset/monero/news links to forum.getmonero.org
12:50:40 <gingeropolous> what would be the best link for that?
12:50:58 <gingeropolous> a web irc client to #monero-dev ? :)
13:28:51 <sethsimmons> I'm beyond excited to announce a new way to propose and fund work on Monero and it's ecosystem, https://bounties.monero.social!... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/9d4a72dc22f50ee390ea1391facf12c0cb6d7cee)
13:46:26 <msvb-lab> Good job sethsimmons, the new website looks good and is very clear.
14:06:10 <plowsof[m]> I would like there to be a 'grace period' where something is assigned to someone for .. lets say 1 week?. During that week there is a none-compete clause? (i can see a few people getting 'burned' due to the 'first to finish gets the prize' model)  
14:08:06 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Bounties website looks great, thanks Seth :)
14:28:56 <fluffypony> sethsimmons: now you just need a governance token and it could be a DAO
14:28:57 <fluffypony> :-P
14:29:03 <fluffypony> Dash will be so irritated!
14:29:24 <ComplyLast> can we have masternodes too? please?
14:29:34 <ComplyLast> wb fluffypony 
14:29:40 <fluffypony> ComplyLast: tks
14:29:51 <fluffypony> only MasterMonero's can vote on proposals
14:29:56 <sethsimmons> fluffypony: That's the next step to Monero domination 👿
14:30:08 <fluffypony> perfect
14:30:30 <sethsimmons> And seriously, so glad to see you back around these parts, fluffypony, so sorry for all you had to go through...
14:30:32 <puppy_boin[m]> ❤️ fluffy is back
14:30:44 <sethsimmons> ComplyLast: That's after DAO so that I can own all the nodes and win all the votes
14:30:44 <puppy_boin[m]> Sorry I am just too excited 😂
14:30:56 <fluffypony> thanks - still got a ways to go to put this to bed, but at least it's moving along
14:31:18 <ComplyLast> own just like 70% sethsimmons 
14:31:29 <ComplyLast> spread the remainder 30% amongst several participants
14:32:15 <sethsimmons> Like yourself, I bet
14:32:17 <sethsimmons> NICE TRY
14:32:49 <ComplyLast> lol
14:34:08 <plowsof[m]> 🤯
14:37:12 * sethsimmons uploaded an image: (60KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/monero.social/pFFLRQBKogNVYyiHIGUAidEC/dao.jpg >
14:38:53 <puppy_boin[m]> 😂😂😂😂😂😂
14:59:12 <030AAAYAD> Seth For Privacy whoa, where did this come from? How was this added to monero.social so quickly?
14:59:27 <030AAAYAD> I'm glad it was, I just want to know how so we can replicate stuff like this
15:05:12 <lza_menace> Stoked on the new bounty thing. Been wanting to do something like this but happy to see it’s been picked up by the community
15:20:45 <crypt0_bear[m]> fluffypony: Welcome back !
15:20:56 <fluffypony> tks
15:21:31 <crypt0_bear[m]> Hey everyone, I started a new version of the Awesome Monero list since the old one was ancient 
15:21:31 <crypt0_bear[m]> https://github.com/Monero-Extremist/Awesome-Monero
15:21:46 <crypt0_bear[m]> I still need to add some more stuff to it and finish the wallet list 
15:22:03 <atomfried[m]> crypt0_bear: you could(should) add p2pool to the mining section
15:22:36 <crypt0_bear[m]> Yeah I will add it for sure 
15:22:36 <atomfried[m]> but nice to have this list :D
15:22:51 <crypt0_bear[m]> Ill share it in all the usual places once it is done 
15:23:30 <binaryFate> crypt0_bear[m]: maybe you can list some of the tools at https://melo.tools
15:27:18 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Nice list. :) Would recommend:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/0a84fce8721961d77bb125c378f162fd344393f3)
15:28:07 <vtnerd> this is from wayy up in the scrollback, but iirc LN decided to only communicate initial channel capacity not current capacity for privacy reasons
15:28:23 <vtnerd> this should make the path finding harder, because the node has to select the path partially "blind"
15:29:28 <vtnerd> someone deep within that reddit comment actually mentions this, and explains that LN doesn't even communicate when/why it failed (not sure about that part of the spec)
15:31:56 <vtnerd> lack of communication on failure would make the algorithm a lot harder because it cannot eliminate paths when it should
15:32:00 <crypt0_bear[m]> <binaryFate> "crypt0_bear: maybe you can..." <- This is awesome. Ill use it and it has great tools listed on there 
15:32:37 <crypt0_bear[m]> > <@anarkiocrypto:halogen.city> Nice list. :) Would recommend:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/103642bd6de13b5598901420264cf78700bd37ea)
15:36:03 <atomfried[m]> since in LN the best path does not need to be found but any path, maybe every node could instead of knowing the whole graph only know its direct neigbours and the strongly connected component it is a part of. when sending a payment it could route the payment to a neigbour for which it is know that it is not further away from the target then the current node
15:36:52 <atomfried[m]> how this can be known if the neigbour is not further away is not easy without the graph structure, but maybe someone finds a way
15:38:10 <atomfried[m]> if this is possible, the payment could be routed to a node without anybody knowing the graph structure
15:43:01 <atomfried[m]> to choose if an edge can be taken could maybe be done with pederson commitments like confidential transactions are done
15:48:29 <atomfried[m]> nevermind i thought a bit more about it and the idea was stupid :D i will maybe come back with this when i have thought a little bit more about the implications
17:17:58 <kinghat[m]> https://reason.com/2021/09/08/bidens-total-financial-surveillance/
18:37:30 <sethsimmons> endogenic: if you wish to continue your off-topic discussions, please do so here instead of MRL.
18:38:10 <sethsimmons> Or #monero-offtopic
19:03:15 <midipoet> sethsimmons: nice work on the bounties website. How does it work practically though? The funds sit with Core until the tasks are complete? Does one notify someone if starting work on the bounty, to avoid duplication?
19:06:14 <sethsimmons> midipoet: Yes, funds sit with Core until bounties are completed, and then payouts occur to the person who completed the work. Users starting work on bounties should say so in a comment (preferably with some proof of their ability to do so) and give updates in comments so other users can see what is in-progress and what still needs work etc.
20:00:44 <nioc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk09txrvEPc
20:42:04 <M030AAAYAD> the MCW YT channel is now bridged to Odysee: https://odysee.com/@monerocommunityworkgroup
20:48:56 <selsta> Odysee = LBRY rebrand?
20:49:10 <M030AAAYAD> maybe? idk haha
20:49:56 <selsta> "The platform's predecessor LBRY.TV has now been retired in favour of Odysee."
20:50:31 <selsta> M030AAAYAD: did you intentionally change your irc username? :D
20:50:34 <M030AAAYAD> what is the point of using odysee over youtube
20:50:40 <M030AAAYAD> selsta: nope
20:50:48 <selsta> it's "M030AAAYAD" now
20:51:06 <M030AAAYAD> better than sgp_ fwiw
20:51:11 <selsta> lol
21:00:51 <M030AAAYAD> fixed now?
21:01:00 <M030AAAYAD> looks like nope
21:03:51 <sgp_> that seems to have fixed it
21:05:00 <sgp_> I have put in a bunch of effort towards getting a MAGIC Monero Fund off the ground, and I finally have some drafts that I can share here for feedback
21:05:05 <sgp_> I envision that this MAGIC Monero Fund can be used for a variety of purposes, including funding MRL projects
21:05:10 <sgp_> ignore the domain it's currently on (will be changed to magicgrants.org soon once the website is beautified more)
21:05:16 <sgp_> MAGIC Funds overview page: https://buyxmr.com/funds/ (again, ignore domain, this is just for testing)
21:05:20 <sgp_> I also made this draft outlining the MAGIC Monero Fund specifically: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ygcbshhsZ3ZjJoUoZve-hn2VnvbuDvfJueoDTkdrG68/edit
21:05:27 <sgp_> Do you have any initial feedback or questions?
21:05:32 <sgp_> Again, this is separate from the CCS and is a side initiative that I hope can be useful; it's not meant to replace anything else, speak for anyone, or interfere with others' ideas.
21:06:16 <crypto_grampy[m]> <sgp_> "what is the point of using..." <- ct: 
21:18:58 <ct[m]> <sgp_> "what is the point of using..." <- Odysee is essentially an uncensorable version of YouTube. Over the last year their control obsession has bleed into a lot of regular channels as well, creators get strikes or even bans for all kinda of nonsense reasons. And YouTube always refuses to elaborate, cooporate or otherwise help creators to rectify the issues.
21:18:58 <ct[m]> The nice thing about Odysee is that YouTube creators can easily mirror their content on Odysee, so a lot of amazing people are already there, include veratasium, 3blue1brown, Luke smith, Louis rossmann and of course monero talks. The platform is super useable on both the app and their web application. It is very rare that a video buffers, 98% off all content loads about as fast as YouTube. It has literally no downsides, but cuts some
21:18:58 <ct[m]> more dependencies on google.
21:19:42 <sgp_> so is it just a video website with hosts that don't moderate?
21:22:25 <carrington[m]> If I remember correctly, the website Odysee is technically moderated but if they removed a video from the website then it could still be found through the LBRY block chain (somehow)
21:26:45 <ct[m]> Exactly. The website is moderated, they have an nsfw tag for all filth, and most recommendations are relatively sane. Only the block chain that can be access from the desktop application  has everything
21:27:17 <ct[m]> And "just a video website" is a bit of an understatement, it is an *actually usable* video site
21:27:26 <t-900-a> It's bittorrent magnet links that are stored on the blockchain, right?
21:27:42 <ct[m]> bitchute and all the others are just garbage compared to odysee
21:28:30 <ct[m]> I know that other metadata is stored on the blockchain as well in addition to optional payment info
21:29:25 <ct[m]> No idea how the streaming part works, I just like it from a user perspective
21:48:36 <carrington[m]> MoneroTalk did an interview with the CEO a few months ago
21:50:21 <t-900-a> There are better solutions to storage than a fork of bitcoin w/ magnet links added
22:09:02 <ct[m]> no doubt. But odysee is usable and it has great content, which is what no other YouTube "competitor" has ever managed to do
22:27:57 <nikg83[m]> With recent ongoing spam which seems to have started again and decoy selection change where we are picking up decoys from recently mine blocks; does it hurt privacy more now ? Because the recent blocks have bulk of the outputs from a bad entity and they know it’s theirs 🤔 
22:27:57 <nikg83[m]> Can someone clear this up 
22:28:18 <nikg83[m]> s/mine/mined/
22:30:23 <sudo_ki[m]> > <@sethsimmons:monero.social> I'm beyond excited to announce a new way to propose and fund work on Monero and it's ecosystem, https://bounties.monero.social!... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/654df7c03e1b9e33ebe197eecd3d19dffb12383a)
22:30:54 <sgp_> monero.social is held by Diego and issued to Core afaik
22:33:31 <sudo_ki[m]> Is this kind of similar to the work of plowsof ?
22:34:15 <sudo_ki[m]> Or do I have it confused?
22:37:41 <crypto_grampy[m]> It's similar, but based on a commenting/forum type of platform with a little more crowdsourcing, more general monero focus, and a sprinkle of moderation (though less moderation than CCS).  
22:39:25 <Rucknium[m]> sudo_ki: The way I see it, the two systems serve similar but opposite roles:
22:40:03 <sudo_ki[m]> Are there core features that could be used in both?
22:40:18 <Rucknium[m]> plowsof 's platform serves people who have labor but need capital
22:40:18 <Rucknium[m]> The bounty platform serves people who have capital (and an idea) but need labor
22:40:39 <Rucknium[m]> It's all about matching capital to labor, just from opposite ends of the challenge.
22:40:46 <Rucknium[m]> They are complementary, as I see it
22:42:03 <sudo_ki[m]> That's how I was looking at it. Couldn't help but wonder how much more efficient it would be, if people working on similar ideas knew about each other and worked together
22:42:06 <sudo_ki[m]> That's all
22:44:28 <crypto_grampy[m]> I'm especially excited about the bounties site because I think there are a lot of people with great ideas and just hold them in because they don't have the tech knowledge
22:44:45 <crypto_grampy[m]> Or perhaps they don't know the right person to tell the idea to
22:46:22 <sudo_ki[m]> I wonder how much attention bounties of 0 xmr would get
22:46:24 <sudo_ki[m]> XD
22:46:32 <crypto_grampy[m]> Might be interesting to do a bounty hunter Friday post on reddit or something
22:46:45 <crypto_grampy[m]> And copy pasta some of the high rated ones into the bounty site
22:46:53 <sudo_ki[m]> crypto_grampy[m]: Nice idea
22:48:33 <crypto_grampy[m]> Saturdideation
22:48:49 <crypto_grampy[m]> No frideation
23:37:32 <plowsof[m]> https://www.clipartmax.com/png/middle/177-1773580_strokedasharray-in-responsivecontainer-cartman-dog-the-bounty-hunter.png
23:44:14 <sgp_> <sgp_> "I also made this draft outlining..." <- About to have a MAGIC board meeting. Any comments on this you want to share before the meeting?
23:45:38 <Rucknium[m]> sgp_: Yes. How hard would it be to paste this over to CryptPad or a similar non-Google platform? Google scares me
23:47:49 * sgp_ posted a file: (176KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/monero.social/eLLWWaGdgLNqDjYngfHZEZSC/MAGIC%20Monero%20Fund%20%5BDRAFT%5D.pdf >
23:47:53 <sgp_> Rucknium: ^
23:48:11 <Rucknium[m]> sgp_: Thanks!
23:49:41 <Rucknium[m]> sgp_: Is this substantially changed compared to what you shared with me a few weeks ago? I read it then, actually, but didn't type any feedback
23:50:35 <sgp_> I reworked the veto section to be more restrictive and clearer
23:52:39 <Rucknium[m]> >ZOMG serves as an extremely useful example of what to repeat and what to adjust for best compatibility in the Monero community.
23:52:39 <Rucknium[m]> You might want to note how ZOMG is sort of imploding right now. So emphasis on the "what to adjust" I suppose.
23:54:51 <Rucknium[m]> I recently "caught" them trying to break the law 🙃
23:54:51 <Rucknium[m]> https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/aiyadt-candidacy-for-zomg/39921/11?u=rucknium
23:55:40 <sgp_> I attribute that mostly to their relationship with the ECC. But yeah, definitely lessons learned there that we shouldn't run into imo
23:56:48 <sgp_> > <@rucknium:monero.social> I recently "caught" them trying to break the law 🙃
23:56:48 <sgp_> > https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/aiyadt-candidacy-for-zomg/39921/11?u=rucknium
23:56:48 <sgp_> Committee members can actually deal compensation so long as the conflict of interest policy is followed, but getting close to that line usually isn't good
23:57:13 <sgp_> s/deal/receive/
23:58:43 <sgp_> Eg, an executive director can be compensated, and sit on the board, but they can't vote on their compensation as a board member
23:59:03 <sgp_> Still, people who act on the committee largely shouldn't be applying for grants