01:06:27 <crypto_grampy[m]> Really good Monero vs Bitcoin Twitter Spaces convo that just started: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VgeRHzTmJc
02:26:20 <chad[m]12> <escapethe3ra[m]> "https://www.monero.observer/..." <- You're a hero
02:26:59 <chad[m]12> For those who didn't know, RSS feeds available:
02:26:59 <chad[m]12> https://www.monero.observer/rss/
02:47:42 <pigeons> I've replied to Matrix support that #monero-space, #monero-swap, #monero, and #monero-hardware are still not able to be bridged/plumbed to libera irc
02:56:56 <inkmercenaryart[> Anyone here knows artists who take monero?
02:57:17 <inkmercenaryart[> Like commissions of 2d art
04:07:14 <louipcm> i might know one
05:14:31 <inkmercenaryart[> Noice
05:35:44 <spirobel[m]> <carrington[m]> "I'd much rather someone present..." <- but nobody cares about them. We can all agree that there is a public discourse and some people matter in this discourse while other people dont. It pretty much depends on how the media defines "what is relevant". Public opinion isnt formed by nice... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/5e30af5f0ee7c8eb61a6534b53a7a26566f53000)
05:37:10 <Halver[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "Interesting idea. Monero in..." <- In general, leftists don't like cryptos, and this since the beginning.
05:40:37 <spirobel[m]> Halver[m]: I dont think thats true. I remember going to a chaos communication congress around 2012-2013 and there was a bitcoin atm there. This is a very left wing environment. Also in the pirate party there was some talk about it. Which was also a fairly left wing party. But in general I agree. There should be more outreach. It seems like they soured on crypto because they didnt get cancled yet and missed out on the big gains like
05:40:37 <spirobel[m]> the alt right.
05:42:38 <libre[m]> Crypto is true democracy. Everybody can cry, left and right. But real changes in crypto can only happen with consensus.
05:44:27 <unscottable[m]> libre[m]: When the consensus is so easily shaped by organs of the State. that doesn't give me much comfort. 
05:45:33 <unscottable[m]> we will see how it goes, i think spirobrel made some good points. i think we need to be ready to dissuade people from using CBDC's 
05:46:16 <libre[m]> I'm more worried about Minoritarianism
05:47:15 <libre[m]> In crypto you need at least 51%. In real life you just need a couple dozen people with outrage.
05:48:40 <libre[m]> CBDCs are a different beast. Can they even be considered crypto? They will just be a glorified database. Nobody in the public will be able to run nodes.
05:49:36 <unscottable[m]> i assume youve seen the IMF video on cryptocurrency? 
05:50:56 <libre[m]> Yes. That's why I don't consider CBDCs cryptocurrency.
05:51:39 <libre[m]> They are more like a permissioned API
05:52:07 <libre[m]> Pretending to be crypto
05:53:49 <unscottable[m]> the cbdc will probably have monetary incentives along with promotion by the media that using it is the right thing to do
05:54:02 <unscottable[m]> to solve whatever the issue is 
05:54:10 <unscottable[m]> probably racism or climate change or something 
05:55:16 <libre[m]> No doubt
05:55:47 <libre[m]> First they need to get rid of cash though, that's gonna be a fun one.
05:55:53 <unscottable[m]> they have been pushing on whining about how btc uses too much energy and what not
05:56:01 <unscottable[m]> hilarious 
05:57:27 <unscottable[m]> Daily Stormer’s move to Monero... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/111d8e6085f51d7b7689e378fbdfb97c6e0d5f00)
05:57:59 <unscottable[m]>  * > Daily Stormer’s move to Monero... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/ad9879d873325a8b9486c8cc1d25b263c1ecf7dc)
06:00:30 <unscottable[m]> what really irks me is.. imagine... nazis could use USD. 😱  
06:02:42 <spirobel[m]> <unscottable[m]> "hilarious..." <- He looks so cute in the picture. Reminds me of this somehow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5sd_CuZxNc 
06:11:15 <spirobel[m]> <unscottable[m]> "they have been pushing on..." <- yeah this is their cope: I missed out on the price, but at least I am not immoral because its bad for the environment. This is why there needs to be an alternative narrative. There is no sensible argument that could ever dissuade them from this, because this notion comes from a sentiment. From the sentiment of having missed out. And the bitterness of this can not be confronted with
06:11:15 <spirobel[m]> reason. There is also this connection of the narratives of racism and climate change. Its connected to the word "climate justice". But we can flip this by calling banking regulation racist. And giving them a way to be part of the struggle against it by using monero.  
06:11:32 <spirobel[m]> s/giving/give/
06:12:33 <unscottable[m]> well with a project like monero you can advertise it in many different ways to, to many different kinds of people
06:13:14 <unscottable[m]> s/to//
06:13:23 <unscottable[m]> so i think thatll work itself out 
06:13:41 <Mumuks> <unscottable[m]> "the cbdc will probably have..." <- Still, will CBDC leave banks without transaction fees? Because if they do not, what is the point of cbdc for the public, you still depend on the bank to transact. And if they do, they remove a big part of the banks profits.
06:13:54 <unscottable[m]> * itself out,, *  but i dont think its feasible to operate within a narrative that i consider to be false
06:14:59 <unscottable[m]> there is a section in the NYTimes that was hilarious related to how they are thinking about doing it 
06:15:39 * unscottable[m] uploaded an image: (1006KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/antioptic.com/YiFrtHvgPBEqnPrRpfxBEMdL/image.png >
06:22:38 <Mumuks> They want to do that, they have talked about negative interest rates for more than a decade, but I don't think they are realistic about what it will accomplish. People will just buy gold, real state, anything really, instead of putting money in the bank
06:23:39 <unscottable[m]> institutions like the welfare state arent created based on understanding economics well, so i dont expect that to deter them 
06:51:03 <spirobel[m]> <Mumuks> "They want to do that, they..." <- I think mises book theory on money and credit is really great when it comes to that. In it, he makes this argument: If you inflate the money supply you have to do all these things that eventually lead to totalitarianism. You have to have capital controls. You have to make gold and foreign currency holdings illegal. This is where we will end up eventually. They already start to make
06:51:03 <spirobel[m]> "large" cash payments illegal. 
08:47:21 <libre[m]> Capital Gain Taxes is the alternative to negative interest rates.
08:47:49 <libre[m]> Any assets you buy to 'protect' yourself from negative interest rates
08:47:57 <libre[m]> Will get taxed on any gain
08:48:19 <libre[m]> Promoting really, to keep spending instead of saving. Same effect, different method.
08:49:23 <libre[m]> What they want to eliminate is savings. No matter if you save them on cash ( negative interest rates ) or you save them in assets ( capital gain taxes ).
08:49:49 <libre[m]> That's why crypto (and monero specially) is an existential threat to their plans.
09:39:12 <Mumuks> <libre[m]> "Capital Gain Taxes is the..." <- This is a good point. Together they really turn any market participant into a serf, effectively
09:39:12 <godric-lionheart> I think the root of this problem is a psychological and religious one. Many people don't want to save for the future because they don't have a future to believe in.
09:39:12 <godric-lionheart> Your neighbor with no future is going stand by or actively want to destroy your savings no matter what technology or asset you use unless you deal with their pathological psychology.
09:39:12 <godric-lionheart> The fundamental problem of our era seems to be the re-establishment of a shared mythology and positive role model. 
09:39:39 <godric-lionheart> * is going to stand by, * stand by and watch your savings get destroyed or actively
09:40:01 <Mumuks> > <@godric-lionheart:matrix.org> I think the root of this problem is a psychological and religious one. Many people don't want to save for the future because they don't have a future to believe in.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/2a24f7bdf6400ef1ccd471a5a32c271cd2c1f187)
09:40:22 <Mumuks> They really want to boils us slowly, and it has been working for a while
09:40:22 <godric-lionheart>  * I think the root of this problem is a psychological and religious one. Many people don't want to save for the future because they don't have a future to believe in.
09:40:22 <godric-lionheart> Your neighbor with no future is going to stand by and watch your savings get destroyed or actively want to destroy your savings no matter what technology or asset you use unless you deal with their pathological psychology.
09:40:22 <godric-lionheart> The fundamental problem of our era seems to be the re-establishment of a shared mythology, positive role model, and sense of neighborliness to curb that pathology.
09:40:51 <Mumuks> Again, the importance of decentralizaced social media and communication tools in general
09:44:09 <godric-lionheart> I think the sad part here is the "they" is "us". I think we've all neglected our duties to get to really know our neighbors and prevent the kinds of resentments that seem to be growing.
09:44:55 <godric-lionheart>  * I think the root of this problem is a psychological and religious one. Many people don't want to save for the future because they don't have a future to believe in.
09:44:55 <godric-lionheart> Your neighbor with no future is going to stand by and watch your savings get destroyed or actively want to destroy your savings no matter what technology or asset you use unless you deal with their pathological psychology.
09:44:55 <godric-lionheart> The fundamental problem of our era seems to be the re-establishment of a shared mythology, positive role models, and sense of neighborliness to curb that pathology.
09:45:22 <Mumuks> godric-lionheart: This is a bit inherent to cities, isn't it?
09:47:51 <godric-lionheart> Maybe. Maybe that means people should move out of cities. I think it's still possible to try to get to know people in your building, spend time volunteering places, etc, though
09:50:04 <godric-lionheart> What I'm talking about here is real abstract and kind of hard to articulate, though. And the collapse of shared mythology is different than that kind of neighborliness, but it helps establish it.
09:54:19 <libre[m]> There is shift in mithology. From God, to State, to Protocol. He, they, the.
09:54:34 <Mumuks> godric-lionheart: No, I get what you say, culture, common believes, ...
09:55:36 <Mumuks> That you share with people you have never met
09:55:57 <Mumuks> libre[m]: That's a good slogan
10:02:34 <godric-lionheart> <libre[m]> "There is shift in mithology..." <- The State and a Protocol are both poor substitutes for a story about how to best live your life and find eternal happiness with the creator of the Universe, and protocol specifically is not relatable to most people. People need stories that they can really BELIEVE in, and which most people have heard. Making protocols and things compatible with such stories is important, but not
10:02:34 <godric-lionheart> a substitute.
10:05:41 <godric-lionheart> I get what you're saying, and think that's kind of what's been happening, but it leaves a lot to be desired. There's a kind of magic that needs to be infused.
10:08:34 <godric-lionheart> A kind of magic that deeply respects people for being people, and uncynically and genuinely comes up with a story that weds these kinds of principles with a realistic life path where people can gain a sense of family and belonging.
10:09:51 <Mumuks> I personally do not need that, but with time I've realized a majority of others might and will get a positive result from it
10:13:20 <ErCiccione> Rucknium midipoet selsta sgp_ : i emailed Doug with the links to the racist statements per his request. I really hope he will retract the invite.
10:19:59 <godric-lionheart> <Mumuks> "I personally do not need that..." <- Yeah, I used to think similarly, but the older I've gotten the more I've realized how many implicit narratives I was actually following. I think monero is also skewed heavily in favor of people who get more satisfaction from understanding the mechanics of how things work and learning and doesn't need that sense of community driven purpose as strongly as other people. But other
10:19:59 <godric-lionheart> people can and will make your life miserable if you don't take their needs into account.
10:23:18 <Mumuks> >But other people can and will make your life miserable if you don't take their needs into account.
10:23:18 <Mumuks> True, true
10:35:30 <libre[m]> <godric-lionheart> "A kind of magic that deeply..." <- Oh, just give it enough time. Magic will be born out of the protocol future. It's only been 10 years. People see a new kind of money being born. But it also comes with a new state and a new religion.
10:40:34 <louipcm> those needy people who will make your life miserable should be expunged imo
10:40:45 <louipcm> no time for that nonsense
10:47:29 <godric-lionheart> <libre[m]> "Oh, just give it enough time..." <- I think there's already some latent magic. It needs to be cultivated. The protocol work is further ahead than the religious aspects of whatever lies in the future. The state work I feel like would follow from the religious.
10:47:29 <godric-lionheart> I guess my point in all this is that there needs to be energy directed towards a lot of different areas to actually create a positive future, and that a sound money system is a necessary but not sufficient condition for that future.
10:49:25 <libre[m]> I agree. But people may differ in what positive means.
10:49:32 <libre[m]> IMO the most positive aspect of the protocol is grace and forgiveness for the past. You don’t even need to repent. It is automatically granted.
10:55:19 <godric-lionheart> yeah, forgiveness seems to be in short supply these days. I think it might relate to our desire to increase certainty, not sure. The privacy first nature of monero is good about both ensuring relative differences in what people consider reasonable transaction don't interfere and also with creating a tacit acceptance of the past/is anti purity spiraling. 
10:59:42 <godric-lionheart> <louipcm> "those needy people who will make..." <- I think everyone's liable to behave like that to a degree. None of us are entirely self sufficient and we all have needs. Ingratitude and entitlement shouldn't be rewarded/am not talking about that; I'm talking about earnestly trying to hear out what it is other people want (which isn't always what they say) instead of ignoring and abandoning people in need. A lot of
10:59:42 <godric-lionheart> resentment driven infliction of pain and misery comes from a frustration from not being listened to. I'm not naive about how difficult that is to deal with, nor with how unreasonably entitled some people are, but I don't think the solution is just to cut people off.
11:09:30 <godric-lionheart> I'd argue the bottom portion of the US tax base right now, which receives more than they put in, would actively fight against monero if they were told "these people aren't pulling their weight". The rough translation being "they have more stuff than you, let us take it and give it to you". You can't just cut all of those people off. And a lot of them have needs that are better met through means other than money anyway,
11:09:30 <godric-lionheart> they're just fed resentment as an excuse for the powerful to justify more control.
11:09:30 <godric-lionheart> Better to teach those people how to grow and also benefit from something like monero rather than act hostile.
11:09:30 <godric-lionheart> This is what I mean by there needing to be a kind of multi-pronged approach to crypto advocacy, there's a LOT of other cultural work that needs to happen for it to be viable.
11:12:30 <louipcm> yea but majority of those people are not making your life miserable
11:13:02 <louipcm> and those are the one's i'd be happy to listen to
11:13:13 <louipcm> others aint got no time for
11:13:23 <libre[m]> "They have more stuff than you" is really hard to pull off when that information is private
11:14:52 <libre[m]> Right now is very easy. The government can blame billionares while they spend trillions without fixing anything.
11:17:10 <libre[m]> Individuals wealth should be private, institutions wealth should be public. That way people can focus their attention where it should really be.
11:28:38 <godric-lionheart> <louipcm> "yea but majority of those people..." <- we're speaking in generalizations, but lower tax brackets often vote for policies that increase central control and hurt everyone.
11:28:38 <godric-lionheart> There's something about this blame game thing that I think is rooted in this lack of wider sense of belonging. Every level of society should have a rough sense of obligation to the others. Rich people shouldn't view poor people as just incompetent people wanting to take their stuff, and poor people shouldn't view rich people as exploiters who take advantage of them.
11:28:38 <godric-lionheart> That's always going to exist to an extent, but in healthy societies there should be a decent amount of inter class communication and mutual support. The idea that everyone has the same competencies is wrong, but the idea that the rich has no obligation to the poor or that wealth is always a reflection of competency is also wrong
11:33:53 <godric-lionheart> Hiding the differences in Monero is pretty wise, imo, but for that to be accepted I think the underlying cultural reasons for doing so needs to be articulated more and spread more widely.
11:38:06 <libre[m]> The division between poor an rich is exacerbated thanks to financial surveillance. The division will always exist but the state uses the current transparancy for political gain.
11:40:48 <louipcm> > <@godric-lionheart:matrix.org> we're speaking in generalizations, but lower tax brackets often vote for policies that increase central control and hurt everyone.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/484b39cb43f41cabad498058f49c734262d3e84d)
11:41:08 <louipcm> if you want something done. do it yourself.
11:41:31 <louipcm> no one owes you anything
11:44:01 <godric-lionheart> Agree with that, yeah, people should try to take as much responsibility for moving the world in the direction they want as possible
11:45:18 <godric-lionheart> Part of that includes making a map for yourself and sharing it with people who are lost/having each other try to fill in parts that are missing
14:42:25 <FrEaKi> Could someone please help me out with calculating mining costs for Monero. I'm looking at multiple AMD Threadrippers to mine. I am not doing this only for profits It is more because I am geeky :D. But calculating mining costs varies on multiple calculators.
14:45:38 <ComplyLast> FrEaKi, #monero-pools or reddit.com/r/MoneroMining/
14:45:44 <FrEaKi> AMD Ryzen 9 5950X - 3.4 GHz (4.9 GHz) - 16-cores - 32 threads - 64 MB cache - AM4 Socket. 
14:45:47 <FrEaKi> oh thanx
14:45:47 <ComplyLast> people there will be able to help you better
14:45:57 <FrEaKi> Thank you
15:24:47 <crypto_grampy[m]> 👀
15:26:54 <xmrscott[m]> (For whatever reason just this room in particular is suffering from amnesia we discovered after talking to Matrix Support about an issue, so basically room config is being fixed, etc)
15:32:20 <charuto> nevermind me, just clearing freenode users from the banlist, it makes no sense to have them there since we're not bridged to freenode aanymore
15:36:59 <charuto> s/aanymore/anymore/
19:09:47 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> bridgerton is the bot handling the matrix-discord bridge :D
19:27:12 <tobtoht> Hi all. My new Feather development CCS proposal is open for feedback: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/267
19:30:00 <midipoet> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/FJPy5DqF/Makarov-Blockchain_Analysis_of_the_Bitcoin_Market.pdf
19:30:31 <midipoet> "In this paper, we provide detailed analyses of the Bitcoin network and its main participants. We build a novel database using a large number of public and proprietary sources to link Bitcoin addresses to real entities and develop an extensive suite of algorithms to extract information about the behavior of the main market participants." ^^^
19:31:08 <midipoet> feel free to natter that to any BTC maxis
19:41:43 <crypto_grampy[m]> https://twitter.com/ByteFederal/status/1455616470256340994?s=20
19:41:52 <crypto_grampy[m]> 😁
19:50:24 <sethsimmons> <crypto_grampy[m]> "https://twitter.com/ByteFederal..." <- Requires ID, but otherwise glad they added Monero!
19:50:30 <sethsimmons> https://www.bytefederal.com/what-to-bring-bitcoin-atm/
19:51:46 <sethsimmons> https://www.bytefederal.com/aml-kyc-policy-2/
19:52:02 <sethsimmons> Required for purchases:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/20bbce14df00ce1de48fc1be1a3a612179528a16)
19:52:04 <crypto_grampy[m]> Yeah it's definitely kyc.  Would love to see them on a monerotalk interview... Also curious if they have public usage metrics
19:52:14 <sethsimmons> > If you successfully meet and complete our CIP requirements and do not appear on the OFAC or any other government watchlist, then we will provide you with a user account.
19:52:28 <crypto_grampy[m]> Lol
19:52:45 <sethsimmons> All records are retained for seven (7) years and are readily available upon official request by an applicable examiner, regulator, or law enforcement agency.
19:52:52 <sethsimmons> * > All records
19:53:09 <crypto_grampy[m]> Would be curious how that compares to kraken
19:54:08 <crypto_grampy[m]> And Coinbase
19:54:12 <sethsimmons> Similar
19:54:30 <sethsimmons> But ATMs are normally a bit less KYC happy because they do smaller amounts.
19:54:47 <unscottable[m]> coinflip is pretty good in that regard 
19:55:22 <unscottable[m]> coinatmradar.com and find a coinflip one. you can use fake name and burner phone # to get up to like 900 USD 
19:55:37 <unscottable[m]> per day
19:59:39 <sethsimmons> None near me, sigh...
19:59:43 <unscottable[m]> id recommend going for LTC, something with small fees and low confirmation times so you can trade it out for XMR quickly 
20:00:19 <unscottable[m]> how long is the drive to the nearest one 
20:02:28 <crypto_grampy[m]> I have one fairly close
20:02:55 <crypto_grampy[m]> I don't understand the benefit of buying ltc over just getting xmr if you're going to use one of these things
20:09:59 <unscottable[m]> the ATM's that are from CoinFlip dont sell XMR 
20:11:00 <unscottable[m]> so if you are using a coinflip atm to bypass KYC, you will need to do another coin first then swap on something like fixedfloat 
20:13:43 <sethsimmons> Makes sense, thanks.
20:17:30 <unscottable[m]> so a crypto casino that accepts monero just hit me with a kyc request upon withdrawal 
20:17:41 <unscottable[m]> smh. very lame. 😤
20:20:24 <unscottable[m]> they wont send me the coins until i give ID 
20:20:34 <unscottable[m]> 😡
20:21:07 <unscottable[m]> luckily its a tiny amount of money but still. let you deposit and then do kyc upon withdrawal, thats sleasy 
20:21:22 <unscottable[m]> s/sleasy/sleazy/
20:23:40 <ajs_[m]> any reddit mods.. my post was removed due to URL shorter links, but not sure which links triggered the automod
20:23:43 <ajs_[m]> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/qld3ky/xmrradio_quarterly_transparency_report/
20:47:14 <inkmercenaryart[> <unscottable[m]> "luckily its a tiny amount of..." <- Name and shame
20:47:40 <unscottable[m]> crypto.games 
20:48:05 <unscottable[m]> i heard about the site from a monero site that lists people who accept XMR
20:48:36 <unscottable[m]> i could understand a KYC check if i won like.. 10,000 USD or something... but it was 30 freggin dollars. come on. 
20:48:53 <unscottable[m]> * it was ~30 freggin
20:51:29 <unscottable[m]> they let you create an account from a VPN IP, they let you deposit to these new accounts only created on VPN IP addresses, then they block the withdrawal with a KYC request. they know exactly what they are doing/ 
20:51:30 <unscottable[m]> s/they let you create an account from a VPN IP, they let you deposit to these new accounts only created on VPN IP addresses, then they block the withdrawal with a KYC request. they know exactly what they are doing//they let you create an account from a VPN IP, they let you deposit to these new accounts only created on VPN IP addresses, then they block the withdrawal with a KYC request. they know exactly what they are doing//
20:51:31 <unscottable[m]> s/doing//doin/
20:51:32 <unscottable[m]> s/they let you create an account from a VPN IP, they let you deposit to these new accounts only created on VPN IP addresses, then they block the withdrawal with a KYC request. they know exactly what they are doing//they let you create an account from a VPN IP, they let you deposit to these new accounts only created on VPN IP addresses, then they block the withdrawal with a KYC request. they know exactly what they are doing/
20:54:44 <midipoet> crypto_grampy[m]: is that ByteFederal legit?
20:55:23 <unscottable[m]> i was very excited to find a casino that accepts XMR only to get stiffed
21:01:39 <crypto_grampy[m]> <midipoet> "crypto_grampy: is that ByteFeder..." <- I believe so.  But it is full kyc.  
21:01:51 <crypto_grampy[m]> I may or may not be testing it this weekend
22:05:16 <yggrasilnet[m]> Only casino that could get away without KYC online is if it is tor only
22:06:13 <unscottable[m]> stake does instant withdrawals 
22:06:14 <unscottable[m]> no KYC 
22:06:28 <unscottable[m]> the second i click withdraw the transaction hits my wallet 
22:07:49 <unscottable[m]> * https://stake, * stake.com does
22:44:52 <dEBRUYNE> ajs_[m]: Responded on Reddit