00:27:02 <Inge> crypto_grampy[m]: sure, just saying this has been Todd's stance for YEARS 
05:24:22 <crypto_grampy[m]> Found a nice little Monero merchant API project someone's working on: https://github.com/RuiSiang/monero-merchant  .  Written in typescript and seems very simple to use.  Give this person some feedback. 
09:25:01 <ErCiccione> I haven't received any answer from Tuman about Chris Sky, but on the last Monerotopia episode Touman said that "even if he found his remarks disgusting, he wants to give him the benefit of the doubt" and invite Sky anyway.  Sweeping under the roug racist and homophobic statements in the name of a personal agenda is even more disgusting tan inviting the guy in the first place and i hope the community will take a stand against this. More
09:25:02 <ErCiccione> details on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/qol0gl/chris_sky_an_antisemitic_holocaust_denier_who_has/ 
10:04:43 <spirobel[m]> <ErCiccione> "I haven't received any answer..." <- Instead of canceling people we should rather use our time to do something useful. It just spreads negativity. If you dont like Chris, at least make a suggestion who we should invite instead. What do you think about Chivona for example? https://twitter.com/ScooterCasterNY/status/1441416418919124992 I think this revolutionary energy aligns well with Monero. If you dont like her,
10:04:43 <spirobel[m]> please make a suggestion who else should be invited.
10:17:48 <MrSenshi[m]> Good Afternoon, I'm here to inquire regarding the funding system for Monero.
10:18:26 <MrSenshi[m]> I have an idea that I strongly believe needs to be executed to improve the Monero ecosystem.
11:13:26 <MrSenshi[m]> Does anyone know how I can formally propose?
11:13:59 <MrSenshi[m]> s/propose/apply/
11:29:15 <netrik182> https://ccs.getmonero.org/
11:29:50 <netrik182> MrSenshi: write your proposal and discuss it with the community here and/or on reddit
12:40:45 <Rucknium[m]> MrSenshi: Great! Yes we can help guide you through the process. What is your proposal about?
12:48:49 <dEBRUYNE> spirobel[m]: What about inviting this guy to speak? https://twitter.com/LawyerBitcoiner
14:11:49 <carrington[m]> Reminder there is meeting in this room in just under 3 hours. Here's an agenda:
14:11:49 <carrington[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/625
14:12:16 <ErCiccione> <ErCiccione> "I haven't received any answer..." <- Are reddit mods on the thread? The insults are getting quite aggressive now.
14:12:19 <carrington[m]> Several CCS proposers have said they will try to be around to answer questions
14:16:19 <dEBRUYNE> ErCiccione: What do you expect us mods to do exactly?
14:24:32 <ErCiccione> dEBRUYNE: I asked if mods are taking a look at the thread because some of the insults are starting to become too much. That's it.
14:24:55 <Rucknium[m]> carrington: I will be here :)
14:25:33 <ErCiccione> I don't know what you were implying but i just want to make sure people are checking, because there were already attempts of pushing that i'm a deep state agent or whatever those nutjobs think.
14:30:16 <Rucknium[m]> ErCiccione: In the last several weeks, I have been accused of being both a government agent and Sarang. I wonder what is next 🤔 .
14:30:46 <louipcm> illuminati
14:38:46 <atomfried[m]> is it realy an insult worth deleting when someone is accusing others of being a government agent or being a deep state agent? I think deleting such stuff is dangerous territory ...
14:39:42 <ErCiccione> atomfried[m]: I wasn't asking to delete it. I used it as an example
14:40:46 <atomfried[m]> ErCiccione: ok I see, sorry for the missunderstanding i was thinking you were calling mods to have a look at those things and moderate aka deleting those things
14:43:05 <ErCiccione> atomfried[m]: Well, that's a train of thoughts that goes well beyond what i said, but if i wasn't unclear i hope it is now :)
14:46:29 <XMR2020> ErCiccione: I have been following this thread all morning, thanks for that 🙃 Reading 300+ politically charged comments is just what I wanted to do on a Sunday 
14:46:50 <spacekitty420[m]> <ErCiccione> "I don't know what you were..." <- i dont think they were calling you a deepstate agent but more like... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/80958f38630465b65e1a8d4af626632e368a5bd6)
14:49:16 <XMR2020> ErCiccione: If you see anything anything threatening or hateful please report it. 
14:50:24 <MrSenshi[m]> <netrik182> "https://ccs.getmonero.org/" <- Thanks!
14:51:42 <Rucknium[m]> MrSenshi: Could you explain briefly now what improvements to Monero you intend to propose?
14:53:26 <MrSenshi[m]> Rucknium[m]: Absolutely.
14:53:47 <ErCiccione> XMR2020: Thanks. Sorry about your Sunday 🙂 it's a pain in the ass to write this stuff and i would really avoid it, but sadly i see this situation as one of the main things that could fracture Monero, that's why i think it's so important to have things in the open, even if that pisses of people.
14:54:31 <MrSenshi[m]> MrSenshi[m]: In short, I propose that the community funds an implementation of a hardware wallet on the Java Card platform.
14:54:58 <MrSenshi[m]> There is a severe lack of good hardware wallets, and this makes sense for Monero on quite a few levels.
14:56:01 <MrSenshi[m]> The java card platform is cheap commodity hardware, the implementation would be free software. The Monero community would be the first to make it to the $5 hardware wallet
14:56:21 <MrSenshi[m]> Good for security, good for adoption, makes sense practically.
14:56:39 <ErCiccione> spacekitty420: The guy literally shared a video that has in the title "The myth of the holocaust" and said that hitler was "spot on" on his view of the jewish. It's not like i'm trying to invalidate his points (?) calling him a nazi (which funny enough, i didn't do)
14:56:39 <Rucknium[m]> Thanks for describing it. You may be interested in this (dormant) project for research purposes:
14:56:39 <Rucknium[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/kastelo
14:57:52 <MrSenshi[m]> > <@rucknium:monero.social> Thanks for describing it. You may be interested in this (dormant) project for research purposes:
14:57:52 <MrSenshi[m]> > https://github.com/monero-project/kastelo
14:57:53 <MrSenshi[m]> I'll take a look.
14:57:53 <MrSenshi[m]> Full disclosure, I would intend to actually sell $5 hardware wallets if this were to be funded.
14:58:40 <XMR2020> ErCiccione: Agree, it's too bad Doug didn't respond and this could have been handled without going the public route. 
14:59:11 <spacekitty420[m]> ErCiccione: yeah that's bad... i mean if you went to the length of making that post i just took your word for it tbh, didnt tried to google it or anything but yeah, not surprised on that.. :/
15:00:23 <MrSenshi[m]> Rucknium Would you like to DM about this topic or would you prefer to keep the conversation here?
15:00:47 <Rucknium[m]> Keeping the conversation here is fine :)
15:00:57 <MrSenshi[m]> Alright then!
15:01:02 <ErCiccione> XMR2020: I agree yeah. I tried that too, but when i smelled that things were getting sweeped under the rug i thought it was necessary to draw public attention to the issue.
15:01:10 <carrington[m]> MrSenshi we could maybe resurrect a monero-hw room, I think that might have existed in the past
15:01:22 <ErCiccione> spacekitty420: Thanks for the trust, but i suggest to always verify regardless of who is speaking.
15:01:44 <louipcm> create a parallel community too maybe
15:02:06 <Rucknium[m]> MrSenshi: I think selling the hardware would probably be acceptable to the community. However, the code itself would most likely need to be open source if it were funded by the CCS system.
15:02:18 <ErCiccione> i seriously mean it btw. My way of doing things is assume good faith if i trust you, but always double check. I also don't trust anyone so it's easier for me :P
15:02:37 <carrington[m]> I though there were hardware requirements which popular hw wallets lack for generating Monero transactions. How would this be possible with a $5 device?
15:04:06 <MrSenshi[m]> carrington[m]: I've worked with Java Card and I will admit, this is an uphill battle. Java Cards don't support native EDDSA on any available hardware (you can workaround), but bulletproofs and ring signatures are going to be a pain.
15:04:46 <MrSenshi[m]> There are, however, a few things we can try:
15:05:21 <carrington[m]> I'm not an expert on this topic but I suppose people will want to know how exactly it is feasible for any CCS funding proposal
15:09:14 <MrSenshi[m]> MrSenshi[m]: - We could just implement the cryptography on our best available commodity hardware and accept the speed difficulties.
15:09:14 <MrSenshi[m]> - We could implement a custom operating system in one of the three following platforms: NXP (SmartMX3), Infineoe (Sle78) or Samsung. The actual applet would be most definitely open source, although we wouldn't be able to open all of the firmware.
15:09:14 <MrSenshi[m]> - We could go down an entirely different route and create more custom smartcard hardware and open it up for everyone to use.
15:09:31 <MrSenshi[m]> * - We could just implement the cryptography on our best available commodity hardware and accept the speed difficulties.
15:09:31 <MrSenshi[m]> - We could implement a custom operating system in one of the three following platforms: NXP (SmartMX3), Infineon (Sle78) or Samsung. The actual applet would be most definitely open source, although we wouldn't be able to open all of the firmware.
15:09:32 <MrSenshi[m]> - We could go down an entirely different route and create more custom smartcard hardware and open it up for everyone to use.
15:09:51 <MrSenshi[m]> carrington[m]: Yeah, of course.
15:11:05 <MrSenshi[m]> I've already set up a firm that wants to deliver $5 hardware wallets, its just a question of whether we want to put in the extra effort needed to make it the Monero hardware wallet.
15:14:16 <carrington[m]> I look forward to reading the CCS 🙂 you should be aware of low-cost he wallet competition:
15:14:16 <carrington[m]> https://reddit.com/r/Monerujo/comments/pe0g89/call_for_donations_monerujo_sidekick/
15:16:24 <crypto_grampy[m]> <MrSenshi[m]> "I've already set up a firm..." <- Will the hardware be open source? 
15:17:11 <crypto_grampy[m]> Well, and the software 🙃
15:23:16 <MrSenshi[m]> When drafting the CCS, I would request to form a subcommittee of community members to explore open and partially-closed solutions. The most feasible resolution is, unfortunately, semi-closed. This is not something that I am responsible for or can change, but I justify it as such: java cards are programmable commodity hardware, having a monero hardware wallet on this platform is important for fostering an accessible open ecosystem,
15:23:16 <MrSenshi[m]> even if we object to the nature of the hardware. This same reasoning is why a Monero GUI client exists for Windows 10/11.
15:25:15 <crypto_grampy[m]> I think one of the main concerns people will have is whether or not these devices will be able to be produced/improved should the company you're working with decide to stop making them
15:25:39 <MrSenshi[m]> That wouldn't be a concern
15:26:01 <MrSenshi[m]> You'd be able to install the Java applet on any Java-based smartcard
15:26:12 <MrSenshi[m]> This is why I call it commodity hardware
15:26:20 <crypto_grampy[m]> 👍👍👍 excellent
15:27:29 <MrSenshi[m]> Further, the Java Specification is open, thus there is space for truly open hardware going forward.
15:27:40 <MrSenshi[m]> *java card
15:28:16 <MrSenshi[m]> It just so happens that currently there aren't good vendors that open their cards up
15:28:29 <Rucknium[m]> I would draw attention to the fact that Ledger, one of the "big two" hardware wallet manufacturers, has been suffering many self-inflicted wounds lately. That may be a market opportunity. Trezor is still out there, but their devices are hackable with physical access.
15:30:05 <MrSenshi[m]> Are you familiar with Tangem?
15:31:28 <MrSenshi[m]> https://CryptoNFC.org
15:31:28 <MrSenshi[m]> I propose we build around this standard
15:31:58 <MrSenshi[m]> - Open Standard.
15:31:59 <MrSenshi[m]> - Good Existing SDKs.
15:31:59 <MrSenshi[m]> - Minimal Work to Extend.
15:32:50 <crypto_grampy[m]> MrSenshi[m]: Is this the company that would be producing the cards?
15:33:41 <MrSenshi[m]> My firm is working with Java Card manufacturers (based in Europe), we can provide the hardware at low cost.
15:33:50 <MrSenshi[m]> We would simply be leveraging Tangem's ecosystem
15:35:05 <MrSenshi[m]> (Open standards ftw)
15:35:50 <crypto_grampy[m]> So would there be a mobile app made in conjunction with the card?
15:36:27 <crypto_grampy[m]> How do the xmr's get added to the card
15:40:13 <MrSenshi[m]> 1. tangem has developed open SDKs for CryptoNFC
15:41:04 <MrSenshi[m]> We can use them to extend an existing mobile wallet.
15:41:41 <MrSenshi[m]> This is a very low-cost and low-effort solution for this reason
15:41:58 <MrSenshi[m]> s/tangem/Tangem/
15:42:41 <MrSenshi[m]> crypto_grampy Does this answer your question?
15:51:53 <crypto_grampy[m]> <MrSenshi[m]> "crypto_grampy Does this answer..." <- Yeah these are great answers.  I'd definitely consider addressing these in the CCS as well 😄
15:52:52 <crypto_grampy[m]> So does this style hardware wallet enable a different type of in-person payment interaction?
15:53:17 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Maybe this can help: https://monerodocs.org/cold-storage/offline-transaction-signing/ If the mobile/desktop wallet generates the TX and the Java Card signs it.
15:53:31 <MrSenshi[m]> anarkiocrypto[m]: Exactly right.
15:53:57 <surgeon_[m]> I like it.
15:54:18 <anarkiocrypto[m]> > So does this style hardware wallet enable a different type of in-person payment interaction?
15:54:18 <anarkiocrypto[m]> NFC Monero cards could be interesting. Same size as credit cards, same contactless method, but no fiat or KYC required, purely Monero payments.
15:54:30 <MrSenshi[m]> crypto_grampy[m]: Yeah, low marginal cost to becoming a proper transferable banknote
15:54:38 <MrSenshi[m]> Which is something I've also got in mind
15:57:37 <surgeon_[m]> Would be amazing to have basically XMR giftcards
15:57:57 <MrSenshi[m]> Yeah, if there's sufficient demand we will offer them
15:59:23 <Rucknium[m]> MrSenshi: Would this be a multi-coin wallet or only XMR? I think multi-coin would probably be fine, but it's good to have clarity on this point.
15:59:34 <MrSenshi[m]> Multi-Coin
16:03:59 <sudo_ki[m]> Sounds interesting. For clarification, your interest would be such that you have a greater audience to sell these java cards to, is that right?
16:04:24 <dEBRUYNE> ErCiccione: That thread contains lots of comment, I'd suggest to report the ones that you deem offensive
16:04:30 <dEBRUYNE> Makes it easier to check them
16:05:03 <MrSenshi[m]> sudo_ki[m]: That's one of two.
16:05:32 <dEBRUYNE> MrSenshi[m]: To be clear, you would write the software yourself?
16:05:34 <MrSenshi[m]> We want to provide spending of crypto through other payment rails and provide banking services, anonymity is important
16:07:36 <sudo_ki[m]> What then is your usp over all these other companies? Anonymity?
16:08:51 <surgeon_[m]> Providing banking services seems to conflict with anonymity. Unless I misunderstand something here?
16:08:59 <crypto_grampy[m]> will users be able to use their own node in conjunction with these wallets? (might be a dumb question :D)
16:09:27 <MrSenshi[m]> surgeon_[m]: Its best I rephrase
16:09:48 <MrSenshi[m]> We want to offer interoperability with banking services
16:10:13 <MrSenshi[m]> Moving into and out of Monero as easily as possible
16:11:10 <sudo_ki[m]> I love the sound of 'reusable monero gift card' the rest makes me uncomfortable
16:11:22 <surgeon_[m]> Ok that makes more sense. Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I've been looking at paybis and those types of services the entire morning.
16:11:59 <MrSenshi[m]> sudo_ki[m]: I can guarantee that you don't need to interact with anything outside of that if you don't want to
16:12:10 <surgeon_[m]> s/paybis/paybit/
16:12:30 <MrSenshi[m]> the services segment will not conflict with any other guarantee of sovereignty or self custody
16:12:52 <surgeon_[m]> s/paybis/bitpay/, s/and//
16:14:28 <MrSenshi[m]> That's simply just a product my firm will also happen to offer alongside these cards, outside of scope of this discussion
16:14:35 <MrSenshi[m]> Only stated for full disclosure.
16:18:19 <sudo_ki[m]> If i were to donate, I'd like a Monero exclusive version, with my favourite picture of monero chan on it XD
16:19:23 <surgeon_[m]> Custom card printing is probably outside the scope lol
16:20:01 <sudo_ki[m]> What if i double my donation?
16:23:43 <surgeon_[m]> Looking forward to reading the proposal. This could be very useful.
16:45:11 <BusyBoredom[m]> If this works by offline transaction signing, does that mean the card is only capable of transferring the exact amount that was loaded? So if I put 0.1 XMR on it and buy a 0.05 XMR meal, the whole 0.1 XMR would be transferred anyway? 
16:51:55 <carrington[m]> I guess you would generate the transaction on your wallet and then sign it with the card
16:52:27 <carrington[m]> Wouldn't this require dedicated integration in the wallets? 
16:54:03 <crypto_grampy[m]> i'm assuming the interaction wouldn't be very different from say using monerujo in conjunction with a ledger.  You would create the tx you want to make and you sign it by tapping the card to your phone.  And i imagine you would be able to add more funds quite easily through the wallet public address
16:55:37 <BusyBoredom[m]> I see, so this is less like a debit card and more like an extra layer of security for your mobile wallet. 
16:56:53 <crypto_grampy[m]> it could also be considered similar to a cold card as there's no way to extract the private key from the hardware.  Would need a way to prove funds on the card before trading with someone though
16:57:27 <crypto_grampy[m]> (i think)
16:58:09 <crypto_grampy[m]> https://shop.tangem.com/pages/start
17:00:00 <carrington[m]> Hey everyone it is meeting time! Here's an agenda:
17:00:01 <carrington[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/625
17:00:18 <MrSenshi[m]> <BusyBoredom[m]> "If this works by offline..." <- No?
17:00:28 <carrington[m]> 1. Introduction
17:00:56 <plowsof[m]> hi
17:00:59 <tobtoht> hi
17:01:10 <crypto_grampy[m]> 👋
17:01:11 <carrington[m]> This is a meeting to discuss whatever is going on in the Monero community. We can discuss CCS proposals, workgroup reports and any other relevant issues
17:01:14 <mj-xmr[m]> Hello!
17:01:24 <carrington[m]> 2. Greetings
17:01:25 <crypticentertain> Hello
17:01:33 <carrington[m]> Howdy
17:01:42 <Rucknium[m]> Hi
17:01:49 <ErCiccione> hi
17:01:56 <sgp_> Hello
17:02:18 <crypticentertain> Litesh this side from Cryptic Entertainments
17:02:18 <justverify[m]> Hi everyone
17:02:24 <sudo_ki[m]> ✌️
17:02:31 <carrington[m]> 3. Community highlights
17:02:31 <carrington[m]> Does anyone have any brief community highlights to discuss? Bigger issues can be left for the open time at the end of the meeting
17:02:51 <ajs_[m]> hi
17:03:53 <mj-xmr[m]> A small note for d), my proposal, before we move do b), OSPEAD: my proposal will be supporting OSPEAD.
17:04:06 <mj-xmr[m]> but not only, if more researchers come by.
17:04:17 <carrington[m]> I'll take this opportunity to plug https://www.monero.observer/ for keeping up with goings on, especially if you don't want to browse Reddit. escapethe3ra  is doing a good job there.
17:04:32 <ajs_[m]> I posted an updated on XMR.radio https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/qlf16e/xmrradio_quarterly_transparency_report/
17:04:48 <mj-xmr[m]> carrington[m]: I can recommend it. A very lightweight page.
17:05:47 <carrington[m]> Xmr.radio is pretty awesome also
17:06:17 <carrington[m]> 4. CCS updates
17:06:35 <carrington[m]> a. Italian Mastering Monero
17:06:45 <carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/251
17:06:58 <carrington[m]> I'm not sure if the proposer is here
17:07:40 <carrington[m]> The most recent comments suggest there might be a change of plan needed so maybe this should sit for now
17:08:28 <justverify[m]> Hi everyone. This is my proposal. I’m going to translate the first 4 chapters and then wait for the release of the second edition
17:08:28 <carrington[m]> I'll give a short while for comments and then move to the next proposal
17:09:11 <carrington[m]> Oh cool. Does that mean the CCS is going ahead at a later date?
17:09:27 <carrington[m]> I.e. when 2nd edition is coming up
17:10:05 <sgp_> SerHack: ^
17:10:26 <justverify[m]> carrington[m]: Yes that’s my plan. Going ahead right now would be nonsense since the 2 edition is coming up
17:10:56 <carrington[m]> Cool, could you please drop a comment on the proposal clarifying this plan?
17:11:23 <carrington[m]> b. OSPEAD - Fortifying Monero Against Statistical Attack
17:11:37 <carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/255
17:11:45 <justverify[m]> carrington[m]: Sure
17:11:51 <carrington[m]> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/py8ub3/ccs_proposal_ospead_fortifying_monero_against/
17:12:06 <Rucknium[m]> There have been some developments on OSPEAD:
17:12:06 <Rucknium[m]> https://www.monero.observer/articmine-isthmus-weigh-rucknium-ospead-proposal-feasibility/
17:12:53 <Rucknium[m]> ^ The summary of that article is that ArticMine believes my proposal is feasible, but wants to see some small modifications. Isthmus supports the proposal and suggested some extensions.
17:13:01 <carrington[m]> It seems there is consensus amongst the people who have read the vuln report that the work is worthwhile and important
17:13:54 <carrington[m]> I don't see much point in waiting until "doc A" is published before moving this to funding required
17:14:01 <Rucknium[m]> I think that is true. I do not yet have feedback from binaryFate, however. He has been busy with IRL work though.
17:14:35 <carrington[m]> But if people want to publicly verify this stuff before donating they can just hold off and donate later
17:14:38 <Rucknium[m]> binaryFate has had my HackerOne submission for over a month.
17:15:22 <sgp_> I think this should be moved. The process partially because of the VRP has been quite messy to say the least, but the CCS should be moved in any case
17:15:30 <ArticMine> I have not problem with moving this to funding stage
17:15:33 <ArticMine> no
17:17:00 <carrington[m]> If no one has objections I'll move on
17:17:08 <carrington[m]> c. Monero Community Anthem
17:17:13 <Rucknium[m]> Ok great. I can make appropriate edits to the CCS proposal text ASAP, e.g. change "mixin" to "decoy", incorporate suggestions, finalize the XMR amount, etc.
17:17:16 <carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/259
17:17:49 <crypticentertain> That's my proposal. Please listen to our first version of monero anthem
17:17:58 <carrington[m]> Rucknium[m]: I guess you can decide yourself if you want to extend it by a couple of weeks as isthmus suggested
17:18:18 <crypticentertain> https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=bE-WPYKUNsM&feature=share
17:18:41 <Rucknium[m]> I think I will add 1.5 weeks. I think isthmus makes a good point -- don't have tunnel vision.
17:18:44 <crypticentertain> https://open.spotify.com/track/3C5HdGjCirqtAaEqBUPv76?si=6f710e4ec8ae4d50
17:18:55 <ErCiccione> carrington[m]: i initially downvoted it by actually i don't care
17:19:36 <carrington[m]> Do people have any questions about the scope and requested amount?
17:20:05 <carrington[m]> Requested amount is 20 XMR
17:21:07 <crypticentertain> We've released this track on multiple streaming platforms. The funds will be used to make 4k quality music video as well as remastered version of monero anthem
17:21:56 <ArticMine> How will it be licensed?
17:21:58 <crypticentertain> We use the following cameras for video shooting:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/491f1109cdf5a9d49c3694643f3c54518387f14c)
17:23:01 <carrington[m]> A quick plug for the Monero Community Art fund which has a system for crowd funding art/media: moneroart.neocities.org
17:23:26 <crypticentertain> It's an original artwork. We own the complete license. The community can use it anywhere anytime and there won't be any copyright claims or strikes.
17:24:02 <ArticMine> That is great, but it should be made explicit with a Free Culture license 
17:24:52 <crypticentertain> It would be a royalty free track and no approval will be needed to use this track 
17:25:23 <ArticMine> with GPLv3 compatibility
17:25:30 <crypticentertain> ArticMine: Yes. Definitely! that's my vision
17:25:44 <Rucknium[m]> crypticentertainments: I believe you can explicitly give the track and music video a specific Creative Commons license
17:26:33 <crypticentertain> Rucknium[m]: Yes. Absolutely. We'll publish this under common license.
17:27:16 <carrington[m]> Well I think of you can add that to the proposal so that it is a condition of payout then that addresses those concerns
17:27:25 <mj-xmr[m]> "Creative Commons License" is a given name. It's not a common license. I'm sorry if this sounds offensive :)
17:28:28 <crypticentertain> carrington[m]: Yes. I'm adding this in the comment section
17:29:28 <carrington[m]> d. mj part time dev for Q4 2021
17:29:40 <carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/266
17:30:40 <carrington[m]> Also, crypticentertainments I think it would be a good idea to make a reddit post for your proposal if you haven't already
17:31:15 <mj-xmr[m]> So I've been doing this simulator for 9 years now, and am more of a practitioner than a researcher, so I just deliver tools for the researchers. I have a lot of exp here and continuously improve the runtime speed, etc., just like I do for Monero, but here I don't have to ask nobody to merge my PRs.
17:31:33 <ArticMine> I would suggest https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/ or something more permissive if desired 
17:31:55 <mj-xmr[m]> I will also not be doing JUST the simulator, as the usual Monero firefighting duties also have to be done by someone.
17:32:03 <crypticentertain> carrington[m]: Sure. I'll make one and share in the comment section of the proposal.
17:32:53 <mj-xmr[m]> Regarding the license, I'm strongly considering Affero GPLv.3, but I'm hoping, that I can count on your continuous support, since as the saying goes: "An Open Source Software gets sold only once..."
17:33:26 <mj-xmr[m]> (and Affero so that nobody can close the functionality through a web interface)
17:34:02 <Rucknium[m]> Here's my comment on mj-xmr  's proposal, by the way:
17:34:02 <Rucknium[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/266#note_12496
17:34:02 <Rucknium[m]> Hmm, the # link doesn't work too well
17:34:06 <mj-xmr[m]> We're already discussing the details with Rucknium 
17:34:12 <mj-xmr[m]> Beat me to it.
17:36:11 <carrington[m]> Any questions/comments on the proposal?
17:36:49 <carrington[m]> I think a reddit post would be good for this too if there isn't one already
17:37:42 <carrington[m]> Seems uncontroversial anyways, I'll move along
17:37:50 <carrington[m]> e. Feather wallet dev for 3 months
17:38:05 <carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/267
17:38:12 <tobtoht> I shared the proposal on Reddit a few days ago and received positive feedback: https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/qmufvc/ccs_proposal_continued_feather_wallet_development/
17:38:19 <tobtoht> Here to answer questions should anyone have any
17:39:20 <carrington[m]> I have to admit I've not tried Feather out but the comments & feedback I've seen have been universally positive
17:40:10 <Lovera[m]> carrington[m]: The best wallet desktop 😎
17:41:28 <crypto_grampy[m]> Really like what you're doing tobtoht .  My only requests are adding in config support for XMRig and Monero URI support.  How do you go about prioritizing what features to add?
17:42:30 <crypticentertain> <crypticentertain> "Yes. I'm adding this in the..." <- We have made the amendments in the proposal about the creative commons license and we are creating a reddit post as well to take inputs from the community.  
17:43:30 <carrington[m]> We are getting to the more recent proposals so I guess maybe people want more time to look at these before moving them?
17:43:38 <carrington[m]> Finals proposal was made 1 day ago
17:43:49 <tobtoht> crypto_grampy[m]: "My only requests are adding in config support for XMRig and Monero URI support." -> Yep, both are on the to-do list.
17:44:26 <tobtoht> crypto_grampy[m]: "How do you go about prioritizing what features to add?" -> Last in, first out. Mostly.
17:44:29 <carrington[m]> Now that feather is out of beta I'll give it a whirl
17:44:53 <carrington[m]> Last proposal:
17:44:53 <carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/268
17:45:43 <Lovera[m]> Hello guys, Lovera here. This is my proposal!!
17:45:58 <carrington[m]> I'll suggest a reddit post here as well. Best that as many people in the community see proposals as is possible.
17:47:31 <carrington[m]> It would be good to have some Spanish speaking community members feedback on this
17:47:32 <Lovera[m]> carrington[m]: Ok! I will do a post in Reddit today or tomorrow 👍🏼
17:48:40 <carrington[m]> 5. Documentation/UX improvement ideas
17:49:23 <carrington[m]> Several people have expressed concern with outdated/incomplete documentation and onboarding materials
17:49:38 <Rucknium[m]> #moneroes:monero.social is the Spanish channel. Quite active.
17:51:02 <crypto_grampy[m]> carrington[m]: ErCiccione: can you speak at all to this one?  What are the challenges and what do you think would help in this area?
17:51:06 <Rucknium[m]> I see people come into #monero-dev:monero.social wanting to contribute, but we give them no clear path.
17:51:18 <carrington[m]> There is a new room #monero-ux:monero.social  for any initiatives in this area
17:51:26 <ErCiccione> ^ this
17:51:44 <ErCiccione> I think having a workgroup dedicated to improve Monero's UX could be very beneficial
17:52:04 <ErCiccione> we need somebody to work on the documentation for both users and devs
17:52:15 <ErCiccione> https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22%F0%9F%93%9A+docs%3A+dev+guides%22
17:52:15 <ErCiccione> especially https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/issues/1434
17:52:22 <ErCiccione> https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22%F0%9F%93%9A+docs%22
17:52:30 <ErCiccione> https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22%F0%9F%93%9A+docs%3A+user+guides%22
17:53:30 <ErCiccione> Personally i would he happy to support a CCS with the goal of refreshing at least the dev docs
17:54:18 <crypto_grampy[m]> ErCiccione: It would be great if it was akin to MRL or Monero-dev.  Very topic focused on docs, and improving onboarding and overall experience for new users, doc-writers, merchants and devs, etc
17:54:31 <carrington[m]> Maybe it would be a good idea to create a few bounties for docs, and then if a suitable person is found that way they can make a CCS for a bigger update?
17:55:04 <ErCiccione> Bounties work in my experience
17:57:42 <carrington[m]> Maybe a bounty for updating all the RPC guides?
17:58:08 <crypto_grampy[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "I see people come into #monero-..." <- What do you think is a good solution for this
17:58:15 <carrington[m]> But then it's hard to determine who gets the bounty if multiple people make pull requests
17:59:33 <Rucknium[m]> crypto_grampy: I'm not really sure since I'm not a software developer. However, isthmus has suggested looking at what other coins do and seeing if we can incorporate their lessons.
18:01:07 <carrington[m]> Well as we are already at an hour people can continue these discussions afterwards or in #monero-ux:monero.social  / #monero-bounties:monero.social 
18:01:41 <mj-xmr[m]> Thanks for an awesome moderation :)
18:01:46 <BusyBoredom[m]> I think a good way to onboard new programmers is to (1) have excellent documentation and (2) have a few github issues marked "beginner". The rest takes care of itself, beginners just need starting points. 
18:02:26 <crypto_grampy[m]> BusyBoredom[m]: definitely agree on the marked for beginner issues.  even for documentation 
18:02:33 <carrington[m]> 6. Workgroup reports
18:02:38 <Rucknium[m]> Something to think about: Would people be interested in a funding system independent of CCS that would focus specifically on research to improve Monero's core protocol?
18:02:51 <crypto_grampy[m]> mj-xmr[m]: Yeah bravo carrington  ! 😄
18:03:09 <mj-xmr[m]> I thought we're over >_<
18:03:28 <carrington[m]> We can keep going with the other stuff on the agenda if people want
18:03:34 <Rucknium[m]> I also thought we were over 🤔
18:03:53 <Rucknium[m]> We haven't had a meeting in N weeks, so I would be fine to keep going
18:03:54 <carrington[m]> I'll leave the floor open if any workgroups want to do some quick updates or shilling
18:04:46 <carrington[m]> Floor is also open for "open ideas"
18:06:12 <carrington[m]> Meta topic: should these meetings be every 2 weeks? Would people prefer a different meeting structure? 
18:06:16 <Rucknium[m]> Would people be interested in a funding system independent of CCS that would focus specifically on research to improve Monero's core protocol?
18:06:35 <carrington[m]> Yes, but who would custody?
18:07:13 <Rucknium[m]> I'm not sure. Suggestions?
18:07:48 <carrington[m]> MAGIC maybe? 
18:07:57 <carrington[m]> It has been offered iirc
18:08:45 <Rucknium[m]> Maybe, but that would probably require KYC for the recipients.
18:10:47 <carrington[m]> Well we all trust core with the CCS and bounty wallets so I think trusting a "MRL core" isn't a crazy idea
18:11:24 <carrington[m]> But I guess this is more a MRL meta discussion, so it can move to #monero-research-lounge:monero.social  for the purposes of ending logs
18:11:49 <tobtoht> On the topic of documentation, I recently put up documentation for Feather Wallet: : https://docs.featherwallet.org/
18:11:55 <tobtoht> Would love to hear your thoughts
18:11:56 <ArticMine> My take on funding is that there needs to be different options with the current CCS being one of them
18:12:13 <ArticMine> This is in the interest of decentralization
18:12:27 <carrington[m]> I'll try and do another of these meetings in 2 weeks if people want that
18:13:42 <mj-xmr[m]> ArticMine: I'm glad, that you said it. Signing with both hands and feet.
18:16:03 <crypto_grampy[m]> tobtoht: These docs are fantastic.  The only thing I would maybe add is photos. 😄
18:16:46 <crypto_grampy[m]> * photos. 😄  Or videos....
18:17:16 <spirobel[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "Would people be interested in..." <- I thought about your post regarding recruitment of monero researchers at universities. Maybe it would be a good idea to start a monero journal. We could host a professional looking website and buy a domain. Maybe you and a few others could volunteer to do peer reviews. And there could be an incentive: for every published paper the authors get 1000USD in Monero. This way the
18:17:16 <spirobel[m]> researchers get credibility and money while we can also improve the academic standing of monero. 
18:19:05 <tobtoht> crypto_grampy[m]: "The only thing I would maybe add is photos." -> Definitely, soon (tm).
18:19:33 <Rucknium[m]> spirobel: I think in the far future it could be a good idea to do something like that. Right now I think there is higher-priority work. I am also mindful that it seems like the 2019 Monero conference played a big role in Surae being burned out.
18:20:58 <Rucknium[m]> >we can also improve the academic standing of monero
18:20:58 <Rucknium[m]> Actually, recently the number of academic articles on Monero has spiked dramatically. MRL doesn't even have resources right now to digest what's being published in all the academic outlets.
18:23:01 <spirobel[m]> Rucknium[m]: Maybe I am underestimating how much work it is to review papers. Maybe the community could also assist in the review process. Starting a scientific journal in 2021 shouldnt be too hard. We just put up a website that asks for papers and promises a reward for every published paper.  Maybe we can suggest research topics. Then we spread the word and just wait and see if there are any takers. Maybe its worth a shot. A
18:23:01 <spirobel[m]> website is not a big investment.
18:23:08 <spirobel[m]> (time investment)
18:24:27 <spirobel[m]> > <@rucknium:monero.social> >we can also improve the academic standing of monero
18:24:27 <spirobel[m]> > 
18:24:27 <spirobel[m]> > Actually, recently the number of academic articles on Monero has spiked dramatically. MRL doesn't even have resources right now to digest what's being published in all the academic outlets.
18:24:27 <spirobel[m]> okay interesting. Maybe just collecting all this research and bringing the authors together could be a start
18:25:09 <Rucknium[m]> It frankly is a lot of work. It has taken people lots of time to review my HackerOne submission, for instance, which is a few notches below an actual academic paper.
18:26:57 <Rucknium[m]> One idea I have for an independent funding system for research is more along the lines of peer review, however. That's more likely to attract new researchers since it's a system that they are familiar with, in contrast to the CCS criteria.
18:27:20 <spirobel[m]> Rucknium[m]: I read that sometimes the researcher need to bring their own reviewers if they want to publish and on top of that they also need to pay a fee. So maybe we could offload some of the peer review work and responsibility to the submitter. 
18:32:08 <spirobel[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "One idea I have for an independe..." <- Okay I start to understand. Building this kind of system would also mean working on fixing the big broken system of academic publishing. Its a big problem. So maybe we can start small. Just have a website that aggregates all the monero related research papers. that has an aura of academic legitimacy almost like a journal. And maybe later a review process could be added. A next
18:32:08 <spirobel[m]> small step could also be offering a research price for best published monero paper or something like this. It would be less effort than having a peer review process while still having a lot of the benefits.
18:35:03 <spirobel[m]> s/price/prize/
18:39:53 <Rucknium[m]> spirobel: Thanks for your ideas. I think maybe something could be formulated. The first priority is to get more researchers.
18:49:43 <spirobel[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "spirobel: Thanks for your ideas...." <- do you have a list of all published research papers that deal with monero? How would I go about creating one? maybe I can search on researchgate and make a list.
18:51:27 <dEBRUYNE> tobtoht: 'A recent example is the 7x syncing speedup for Ledger devices.' <= Was this also PRed up stream?
19:01:56 <Rucknium[m]> spirobel: Great! There has been discussion within MRL meetings that something like this is needed. Here is a list to get you started:
19:01:56 <Rucknium[m]> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/pyopq0/comment/hevwdb6/
19:02:21 <Rucknium[m]> You can collect the list in a number of different ways.
19:04:06 <Rucknium[m]> You could do a keyword search for Monero in Google Scholar or something similar. You could also look at a key foundational paper like Moser et al. (2018) and look at all the papers that cite it. Already over 80 papers cite Moser et al. (2018).
19:04:52 <oriphonics[m]> Rucknium[m]: scihub as well, scihub also accepts Monero donations as a sidenote
19:04:58 <Rucknium[m]> Most of them just briefly mention Monero, but some go into great detail. You might also use "CryptoNote" as a keyword as well.
19:05:23 <spirobel[m]> > <@rucknium:monero.social> spirobel: Great! There has been discussion within MRL meetings that something like this is needed. Here is a list to get you started:
19:05:23 <spirobel[m]> > https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/pyopq0/comment/hevwdb6/
19:05:23 <spirobel[m]> amazing. This kind of thing really shouldnt be burried somewhere in a reddit thread. 
19:06:08 <Rucknium[m]> See, for example, this
19:06:08 <Rucknium[m]> https://badge.dimensions.ai/details/id/pub.1103730181
19:15:46 <spirobel[m]> > <@rucknium:monero.social> See, for example, this
19:15:46 <spirobel[m]> > https://badge.dimensions.ai/details/id/pub.1103730181
19:15:46 <spirobel[m]> okay makes sense. Just skimming through the titles again and again costs lots of time. there should be place where this info is aggregated and there should be an rss feed that is observed when new citations happen. this should be done in one place, so that every individual researcher focused on monero does not need to replicate the skimming for new papers process. https://app.dimensions.ai/details/publication/pub.1103730181 
19:18:37 <tobtoht> dEBRUYNE: "Was this also PRed up stream?" -> Yes, see the links in: https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/qmufvc/_/hjebjph/
19:39:54 <crypto_grampy[m]> <spirobel[m]> "> <@rucknium:monero.social> See,..." <- Really like this idea
19:39:59 <crypto_grampy[m]> Might be bounty worthy
19:44:59 <Rucknium[m]> MRL has said that this type of work is needed. Search for "paper" in these meeting logs:
19:45:00 <Rucknium[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/622
19:45:00 <Rucknium[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/613
20:12:29 <spirobel[m]> cool. So I will start working on this after i finished the monero wordpress video. Its almost done. Footage just needs to be cut. 
22:39:19 <CapeCookiesSA[m]> awesome work spirobel
22:49:42 <MrSenshi[m]> Rucknium I think you mentioned wanting to help draft the CCS, are you still up for that?
23:01:03 <dEBRUYNE> tobtoht: ty
23:09:45 <escapethe3ra[m]> <carrington[m]> "I'll take this opportunity to..." <- Thanks for the plug.
23:16:56 <Rucknium[m]> MrSenshi: Sure. I can review a draft of a proposal.