00:58:50 <sgp_> It's not healthy to go full nuclear every time there's a disagreement. Obviously I've been the target of ErC's nuclear strategy before, and it's terrible. Likewise, Doug should have known some people would be pissed if he invited an obvious fucking idiot to what was pitched as a community event. I'm really disappointed all around.
01:09:56 <lza_menace> well said
01:12:37 <louipc00D> invite more idiots 
01:13:08 <louipc00D> theyre good for entertainment
02:40:14 <entry1[m]> Well put. I side more with Doug on this, not that this probably needs to be discussed more from outsiders or added fuel to the fire. When bringing a dilemma to the community, it is best to be objective and not emotionally charged. Chris Sky was a great guest on Monero Talk, and from that discussion alone, there was no reason to think that inviting this person to speak at a conference for a project that is arguably the monetary
02:40:14 <entry1[m]> equivalent of a pro-liberty and anti-oppressive movement due to it's censorship resistance and use in underground economies, would be inappropriate. Let's be real here. ErC should have brought his findings, which was I believe in of itself would be acting in "good faith", to Doug and Doug should have asked Chris privately if he can comment on the findings due to the nature of representing the project (since Doug is now community
02:40:14 <entry1[m]> funded). If Chris doesnt have the maturity to discuss what he previous posted some time ago and offer any sort of apology/clarification for what he said, then maybe he lacks the character (in the community's eyes) to be a speaker. Remember that a guest speaker isn't a direct representation of a project and that going down the rabbit hole on everyone's history can be a distraction from the purpose of Monero.
02:40:39 <libre[m]> Doug did nothing wrong. The interview they had didn't contain anything remotely offensive. You can't expect to KYC everyones past. Shouldn't be the standard of this community. Judge people by what they say today not yesterday.
03:39:22 <BusyBoredom[m]> I agree Doug was right to not make himself judge and jury. 
03:39:22 <BusyBoredom[m]> That said, I think it is reasonable to distance Monero from Chris Sky. I am glad community members are pushing for that distance. Many of Chris's recent statements within the past couple years may alienate potential contributors,  and produce unnecessary friction within the community. He is welcome to believe whatever he wants of course, but we do not owe him an audience -- you have to earn that. 
05:51:43 <oriphonics[m]> > <@busyboredom:monero.social> I agree Doug was right to not make himself judge and jury.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/b951316e26a579527dcbb4b096dbb6570e54bdbd)
06:10:23 <Rucknium[m]> oriphonics 🌻: Who is talking about a fork, where are they talking about it, and exactly who is doing the infiltrating?
06:11:41 <Rucknium[m]> And are those people who are talking about a fork technically capable of generating such a fork?
06:15:15 <Rucknium[m]> As I stated in #monero-beef:monero.social , it appears that many of the people who are criticizing Monero devs on social media are teenagers. I have nothing against teenagers, but should anyone really listen to teenagers about this?
06:15:24 <oriphonics[m]> Justin works/worked for companies opposed to Monero, constantly promoting "policy" and not opposed to regulation, not opposed to canceling Chris, banning people who disagree with him
06:15:24 <oriphonics[m]> FluffyPony potentially working with governments
06:15:24 <oriphonics[m]> Chris getting SJW'd
06:17:07 <oriphonics[m]> The main goal is to not have Monero's code compromised to cater to regulators. Other than that I personally don't care.
06:17:38 <Rucknium[m]> Justin has been working to promote Monero for years. Plus, his involvement in actually writing the code is minor as far as I can tell.
06:17:44 <oriphonics[m]> I am concerned that if canceling people becomes a virtue, then adding censorship to Monero isn't off the table either.
06:19:36 <Rucknium[m]> In fact, I don't think Justin is responsible for a single commit to the Monero codebase:
06:19:36 <Rucknium[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/monero/graphs/contributors
06:20:47 <Rucknium[m]> oriphonics 🌻: That's not going to happen. If it ever were to happen, a fork would happen as a matter of course: the old fork would still be valid. No need to make a new fork -- just follow the old fork.
06:22:05 <Rucknium[m]> Just like the BTC/BCH split in 2017
06:22:27 <tcsnyyzo[m]> It is important to think about how to remove the central dependency on dev team that can be infiltrated (or, more likely, just bow to public pressure or gov threats)... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/40adec36499105ef7f9964c72cb293e8bca056c5)
06:24:53 <Rucknium[m]> tcsnyyzo: To your knowledge, how many -- or roughly what proportion -- of the Monero devs are "doxxed", as you term it?
06:25:52 <tcsnyyzo[m]> No clue, I presumed it was a lot?
06:26:27 <oriphonics[m]> To be clear, I don't mean fork now. I mean fork when and if this gets out of control, like Rucknium said.
06:26:29 <mechanic41turk[m> > <@busyboredom:monero.social> I agree Doug was right to not make himself judge and jury. 
06:26:29 <mechanic41turk[m> > 
06:26:29 <mechanic41turk[m> > That said, I think it is reasonable to distance Monero from Chris Sky. I am glad community members are pushing for that distance. Many of Chris's recent statements within the past couple years may alienate potential contributors,  and produce unnecessary friction within the community. He is welcome to believe whatever he wants of course, but we do not owe him an audience -- you have to earn that. 
06:26:29 <mechanic41turk[m> The contentious point about all this mess is that the way in which a potential public speaker was cancelled from speaking at a monerk event.
06:26:33 <mechanic41turk[m> Is this the way it is for monero community? If someone dares to utter some online post some years past that gets digged out and is deemed to not be in line with Justin's, Erc's or some other members' in the community, then is it cancellation in order for that speaker?
06:26:36 <mechanic41turk[m> Is Doug going to have to give a candidate list for the possible speakers list to Justin and he and his council of self appoonted moral arbiters going to put a check mark or a red cross for kicking?
06:26:41 <mechanic41turk[m> The shitshow and massive number of social media reaction shows that monero community has grown to include not only people of leftish sensibilities, but also people who are skeptical about government mandates about covid, the mainstream media and their narratives and the cookie-cutter social justice view of history.
06:26:44 <mechanic41turk[m> Are these guys who do not share the similar moral posturing of Justin and etal gauche ones and should all be put into a basket of deplorables and ignored?
06:27:01 <mechanic41turk[m> * and etal,, *  the gauche ones
06:27:44 <mechanic41turk[m> <oriphonics[m]> "I am concerned that if canceling..." <- +1
06:27:59 <Rucknium[m]> Here's the problem I see: lots of people who hitherto have had little involvement with Monero suddenly paying it lots of attention since it has become a cause célèbre. Those people don't know the first thing about coding Monero, who the devs are, the history, or anything.
06:29:10 <mechanic41turk[m> Rucknium[m]: More people are trying to involve themselves in monero because some members in the monero community are making sjw talking points a part of the monero culture.
06:29:35 <mechanic41turk[m> There are lots of people in the community who do not share sjw views and are conoelled to make a stance against that.
06:29:53 <mechanic41turk[m> s/conoelled/compelled/
06:31:22 <Rucknium[m]> mechanic41turk: Doug's Monero activities, including the MoneroTopia conference, are now funded by a CCS proposal. He's no longer independent of the Monero community or the Core Team really.
06:31:24 <Rucknium[m]> (It's not clear to me whether Core spend XMR from the General Fund, but they made a statement this summer saying that they would tend to help fund the CCS proposals with General Fund contributions).
06:32:40 <Rucknium[m]> mechanic41turk: I suggest you read XMR2020's recent post on r/Monero . It's a sign of health that the Monero project has people from across the political spectrums using XMR and considering themselves part of the community. 
06:33:05 <mechanic41turk[m> OK. So, what comes together with CCS funding? Aren't you guys going to let Doug have some sense of autonomy or is the going to feel leftish moral judgment of people who are currently in the forefront in the community constantly being breathed down his neck?
06:33:30 <Rucknium[m]> mechanic41turk: By the way, I saw  your brief note referring to me on Twitter. I couldn't respond since my Twitter account is suspended due to SMS verification issues.
06:33:55 <Rucknium[m]> I don't think Twitter is a very good use of my time, anyway.
06:34:11 <mechanic41turk[m> Rucknium[m]: Yes. You trying to use "credbility" as a bat to hit upon me was apalling.
06:34:56 <selsta> mechanic41turk[m: it's a community funded event, members of the community are allowed to voice their opinion
06:35:12 <Rucknium[m]> mechanic41turk: I mean, it isn't clear. The CCS system has lots of shortcomings. One of them is a lack of a clear indication of what is expected from proposers in these kinds of cases
06:36:08 <mechanic41turk[m> Rucknium[m]: Look. This stance is not clear. If you, as Rucknium, going to pose as holding MoneroTopia accountable as per CCS funding, then, where are the rules that CCS says who can be a speaker at an event or not?
06:36:08 <mechanic41turk[m> Also, CCs being part of the "Monero core" community or whatever doesn't change the fact that the CCS is open to the general public and many people, me included, donate into that regularly.
06:36:39 <mechanic41turk[m> So, shouldn't people sharing similar sensibilities to mine have a say in who gets to be the speaker and not?
06:36:41 <Rucknium[m]> mechanic41turk: What I found incredible is what you said about it not being our responsibility to defend people of color. First of all, among those of us who are pseudonymous, some of us may be people of color, so in that case people have every right and responsibility to defend themselves.
06:36:50 <sgp_> <mechanic41turk[m> "Is Doug going to have to give..." <- Are you kidding me? What nonsense strawman is this
06:36:53 <oriphonics[m]> selsta: Sure they can. We aren't talking about voicing an opinion. We're talking about not letting a speaker voice his.
06:38:28 <mechanic41turk[m> Again, I repeat, the contentious point about this real mess is the way in which a moral panic got induced, got out of hand, propagated to the speakers, propagated to Douglas Tuman, made public without giving a chance to Doug for reconciliation, and ultimately resulting in a petty "cancellation" of a proposed speaker to a monero event.
06:39:17 <selsta> oriphonics[m]: https://twitter.com/chrissaccoccia1/status/1457535405775941638
06:39:26 <selsta> lmao sounds like a great speaker choice
06:40:06 <mechanic41turk[m> I don't defend the point that he is a great speaker or not.
06:40:14 <mechanic41turk[m> I personally think he is a grifter
06:40:19 <oriphonics[m]> lmao who cares if he is a good speaker
06:40:39 <sgp_> You really need to stop thinking of this as an event that represents every Monero user's views
06:40:59 <crypto_grampy[m]> Why don't the Chris sky supporters just create another monero event across the street
06:41:13 <Rucknium[m]> People forget or don't know that the Chris Sky issue was discussed in this precise channel about a week ago. I even pinged sunchakr here at that time in part to alert Sunita and Doug, but I didn't see either of them appear here. I mean, they don't have to monitor this channel, but this was openly discussed here days before it appeared on Reddit.
06:41:32 <mechanic41turk[m> sgp_: Well I am not saying anything about "every" monero user. But there are sizeable portions in the community that got really disappointed by what seemed like a petty sjw-cancellation of a proposed speaker to a monero event.
06:42:12 <sgp_> It's not my or anyone else's fault your impression of the situation is completely inaccurate
06:42:23 <mechanic41turk[m> sgp_: I disagree.
06:43:04 <sgp_> Yes, they received pressure to drop Chris. Yes, ErC went full nuclear. But no, there was no discussion of CCS funds being at risk, etc.
06:43:18 <mechanic41turk[m> It seems bad on the community that seemingly a speaker got cancelled due to him not sharing some lefty talking points as you guys do.
06:43:20 <sgp_> It has always been Doug and Sunita's own event
06:43:57 <mechanic41turk[m> sgp_: I didn't talk about CCS funds being at risk or whatever. It is Rucknium that constantly brings out the CCS funding and beats me with that.
06:44:01 <sgp_> It's impossible to get "community" consensus here. There's always one or two people who disagree with everything. So that assumption needs to die
06:44:18 <Rucknium[m]> Frankly, we cannot help people to think critically. Horse, having been led to water, cannot be made to drink.
06:44:29 <sgp_> mechanic41turk[m: I didn't cancel the speaker, Doug did
06:44:48 <oriphonics[m]> Rucknium: ad hominems = thinking critically now huh
06:45:09 <mechanic41turk[m> sgp_: At this point it is certainly not "one or two" people got upset. Dude, just look at twitter, telegram, or other matrix rooms on monero. People are really not happy what has happened and some of them are getting skeptical as to whether this whole leftish stuff will start to influence the code or not.
06:45:14 <louipc00D> what if past transactions of all attendees and speakers would be private ;)
06:45:28 <sgp_> If it was my event, I never would have invited him. But it's not my event obviously, nor should it be thought of as the "community's" event
06:45:43 <mechanic41turk[m> sgp_: He canceled due to Erc making a moral panic out of it. And you sure didn't do much to stop the flames.
06:46:04 <sgp_> mechanic41turk[m: Please, none of these people have EVER stepped in -dev nor looked at the GitHub repo even
06:46:54 <mechanic41turk[m> sgp_: Sure. But you gotta see that, as some one said above, such one sided community monoculture is a danger to the different ideas being sounded by different people with respect to the dev discussions.
06:47:05 <Rucknium[m]> mechanic41turk: I bring up CCS funding since some people seem to think that the "community" should have little to no influence on what the conference looks like. The conference is tied to the "community" by virtue of the CCS. Also, I think Monero should have a decentralized, permissionless, non-custodial funding system like BCH's Flipstarter. This is a case in point where such as system could be useful.
06:47:46 <DaveyJones> why is it leftish when most of the arguments people like him bring on are either false or made to fuel some fire in "other thinking people" - we don't need arsonists - we need firefighters and engineers building fireproof stuff .... so IMO its a neutral view to heft not leftish
06:47:59 <DaveyJones> to have
06:48:11 <sgp_> You know what is also a danger to diverse dev discussions? Promoting the viewpoints of an outspoken homophobic, anti-semitic, racist, sexist, fear-mongering, fake news promoter
06:48:13 <DaveyJones> people need to stop putting everything thats not right into "left"
06:49:23 <selsta> "leftish code takeover"
06:49:34 <DaveyJones> YOU are canceled now
06:49:38 <DaveyJones> :-p
06:49:46 <sgp_> selsta: This is the most absurd thing I've read in a LONG while :p
06:49:48 <mechanic41turk[m> sgp_: Look, I agree. But why tolerate the as much bigoted lefty judgments on character as not-tolerate the other side?
06:49:53 <selsta> sgp_: yea wtf lol
06:50:29 <Rucknium[m]> sgp_ is right on that point. I am trying to recruit more researchers into Monero work -- which is absolutely critical for Monero's future -- and that kind of thing would make that task more difficult. It is already quite difficult.
06:50:41 <sgp_> mechanic41turk[m: In this case Chris is indeed a total asshole though, I don't think anyone here is actually defending that he should be a speaker lol
06:51:10 <sgp_> Like all this drama aside, who would want to invite him to their own event
06:51:30 <oriphonics[m]> DaveyJones: Why does your opinion of the validity of his arguments? Arguments and discussions are meant to be had to learn from each other. Let him on and calmly argue his points. Or maybe you'll agree with one or two of his points.
06:51:32 <mechanic41turk[m> Again. We are moving off-topic as to what was the cause of this. A moral panic got created and as a result, Doug got pressured to drop Chris. This is a bad precedent with regards to the community discussions can be had. Now me and many other people perhaps see themselves as the "outer party" of the monero community.
06:51:42 <sech1> I'm not defending anyone, but I don't like cancellations and self-appointed Ministry of Truth
06:51:42 <oriphonics[m]> * Why does your opinion of the validity of his arguments matter? Arguments and discussions are meant to be had to learn from each other. Let him on and calmly argue his points. Or maybe you'll agree with one or two of his points.
06:51:44 <DaveyJones> thats what im sayin - drama and calling names doesn't attract academics ... i'd rather attracts more of the folks shouting "mUh fReEdoMs" who are all mouth but no code or anything else furthering the project
06:51:48 <sech1> I'm not defending anyone, but I don't like cancellations and self-appointed Ministry of Truth
06:51:59 <mechanic41turk[m> sech1: +1
06:52:17 <DaveyJones> oriphonics[m]: what points does he have about monero besides that it pays his bills ... none other IMO
06:52:36 <DaveyJones> everything else most likely would be his agenda
06:52:40 <sgp_> Ugh for the millionth time this is a private event
06:53:00 <oriphonics[m]> DaveyJones: Dunno, he didn't speak at the event
06:53:07 <sgp_> If someone wants to schedule their Monero: Fake News Only Conference, so be it, no one can stop them
06:53:15 <mechanic41turk[m> sgp_: OK, bro. Let us "other" monero community members know if the next events will be "private" events or not, too.
06:53:31 <mechanic41turk[m> sgp_: Nice framing you got there buddy.
06:53:36 <mechanic41turk[m> I am not defending muh fake news or not.
06:54:06 <sech1> Private event funded by CCS?
06:54:08 <sgp_> If I want to schedule a Monero Gay Orgy you can't stop me :p
06:54:16 <arc[m]1> Doug folded, but if he didn't the people that disagree with him would have simply boycotted the event... I don't see what's the big deal here apart from people being really bad at social media and conflict resolution, some people voiced their opinions, but nobody MADE anyone do anything. 
06:54:21 <mechanic41turk[m> sech1: Indeed. I donated to that, too, btw.
06:54:42 <sgp_> sech1: CCS has never represented the entire community's view
06:54:47 <sech1> wow
06:54:48 <mechanic41turk[m> sgp_: Do what you gotta do, man.
06:54:56 <sech1> that's bold
06:55:33 <Rucknium[m]> * Rucknium slinks away to do a code review of PR#8047
06:55:36 <louipc00D> did everyone's periods sync up
06:55:48 <sgp_> I don't understand how someone would think that everything funded by the CCS is suddenly endorsed by every Monero community member
06:56:02 <sgp_> Case in point: Monero Tesla 😂
06:56:10 <mechanic41turk[m> sgp_: Don't pull this to the extremes and make a nonsense out of our position. I am not talking about "entire" community. But you gotta give it to that, that a sizeable portion of the monero community is at unrest because of what got unfolded.
06:56:38 <mechanic41turk[m> sgp_: Again, pulling to the extremes and trying to make my position as irrational...
06:57:30 <sgp_> I really don't know what to say other than repeating over and over again that the moved CCS proposals are never meant to be a community endorsement
06:57:42 <sgp_> It's literally just that the Core Team decided to move it
06:57:57 <sgp_> Maybe they'll partially consider community sentiment, but there's no "community vote"
06:58:12 <mechanic41turk[m> sgp_: Well, Rucknium keeps bringing up that since the event is CCS funded, the event is open to the scrutiny by you, by Ruck, and by Erc as to who can be the speakers in there.
06:58:17 <mechanic41turk[m> What is it, Justin?
06:58:23 <oriphonics[m]> sgp_: except reddit upvotes of course
06:58:56 <sgp_> mechanic41turk[m: It's open to scrutiny, but doesn't mean Core Team will listen to it. Anyone can yell about anything, lol
06:59:34 <sgp_> Core Team didn't cancel the Monero Tesla proposal, and that pissed some people off
07:03:48 <mechanic41turk[m> sgp_: Well in this case it is obviously the case that Doug got pressured into taking action kicking one of proposed speakers. Is this scrutiny that you are speaking of?
07:03:50 <mechanic41turk[m> Again, I want to emphasize that this sets a bad precedence as to which political views and positions are favored by the "leading figures" of the community and does indeed leave out a large portion of the monero community that wants to be part of the discussions online but are shunned or soft-coerced because they do not share the moral posturing of the "leading figures".
07:04:09 <mechanic41turk[m> Do what you guys wanna do with this.
07:04:12 <mechanic41turk[m> I am out.
07:05:36 <selsta> "leading figures"
07:06:45 <sgp_> mechanic41turk[m: Political views are left out of -dev and -research-lab entirely, so this isn't a problem anywhere that you seem to be worried about. If someone can't participate in a dev or MRL meeting without brining up politics, it's on them :p
07:07:07 <sgp_> * Political views are left out of -dev and -research-lab entirely, so this isn't a problem anywhere that you seem to be worried about. If someone can't participate in a dev or MRL meeting without bringing up politics, it's on them :p
07:09:00 <sgp_> Monero is naturally going to attract a wide spectrum of people. They're not all going to get along. I'm not going to get along with someone who thinks I should die and go to hell, for example. So, the Monero community will actually consist of dozens/hundreds of groups, not just 1 mega group. This is already the case. Monero is strong for the diversity of its workgroups and communities, not confirming to one monolith
07:09:52 <selsta> it's too late, there has been a leftish takeover and soon all the code will be copyleft only
07:10:07 <louipc00D> i wann see kim jong un speak at monero conference
07:11:04 <oriphonics[m]> louipc00D: same
07:11:26 <crypto_grampy[m]> louipc00D: I'm working on booking him for my 2023 event in my nursing home basement
07:11:45 <crypto_grampy[m]> It's going to be huge but under 300 person max fire capacity
07:12:06 <louipc00D> sweet
07:14:57 <crypto_grampy[m]> sgp_ @sgp_:monero.social are yats getting added to cake soon?
07:15:41 <louipc00D> remember when ppl at nobel prize ceremony tried to cancel milton friedman
07:15:50 <louipc00D> that was pretty lolz
09:26:12 <atomfried[m]> sorry to bring this up again but regarding the chris sky drama, was it ever considered to just ask chris sky about what he said and if he changed his mind about this and if he would state publicly how he thinks about this stuff he said today?
09:29:31 <DaveyJones> he called doug spineless - so much about that i guess
09:30:01 <Rucknium[m]> atomfried: From my reading of Twitter, Doug did exactly that, although I'm unsure of the timing.
09:30:04 <Rucknium[m]> https://nitter.net/DouglasTuman/status/1457799035008389126
09:30:43 <Rucknium[m]> https://nitter.net/DouglasTuman/status/1457781649924517907
09:31:03 <Rucknium[m]> https://nitter.net/DouglasTuman/status/1457767324719722506
09:36:21 <atomfried[m]> ok i see
10:02:30 <netrik182> I posted a short report on my work so far as part of my ongoing CCS proposal: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/260#note_12546
10:02:30 <netrik182> please let me know what you think
10:50:11 <carrington[m]> Do gitlab comments appear on mobile for other people? They only ever work on desktop for me
10:52:00 <carrington[m]> I've tried multiple browsers and even desktop display modes, no comments ever show up on mobile
10:54:07 <netrik182> they show up for me
10:56:29 <carrington[m]> Gah! I'll just wait until I'm at a laptop or something. I suggest making a reddit post for CCS updates.
10:59:13 <plowsof[m]> carrington: have you tried your browsers version of incognito/private tab and paste the link there? (Maybe an adblocker or some other script is blocking them which are not running in private tabs)
11:00:09 <netrik182> carrington: I'll try to post on reddit later today
11:31:59 <carrington[m]> Incognito didn't work either btw
13:39:26 <sgp_> <crypto_grampy[m]> "sgp_ @sgp_:monero.social are..." <- Yes
13:40:27 <sudo_ki[m]> <sgp_> "You know what is also a danger..." <- Tos?
13:47:17 <xmrscott[m]> <carrington[m]> "Do gitlab comments appear on..." <- Yes. I use Firefox Focus if it helps replicate any
13:52:51 <sudo_ki[m]> * Mods, is this not clearly breaking tos?
14:06:59 <carrington[m]> It turns out it was links to comments which were broken for me. If I navigate manually then the comments did appear after a long load time.
15:39:37 <crypto_grampy[m]> Anyone in here a r/Monero mod?  My post got autobanned
15:48:58 <plowsof[m]> u/debruyne (username?) to the rescue?
15:49:16 <plowsof[m]> dEBRUYNE: 
16:44:57 <dEBRUYNE> crypto_grampy[m], plowsof[m]: Post is visible as far as I can see
19:01:03 <arc[m]1> I'm sorry to bring this up again, but it's good to find some common ground. I think we can all agree on how much of a smooth brain this guy is after all:  https://twitter.com/chrissaccoccia1/status/1458129226985447430?t=5NrgTw5BHSe3sNFrbRlMjA&s=19
19:18:23 <midipoet> do we know who actually threatened to pull funding?
19:19:20 <midipoet> as that was the practical issue that stopped the conversation about whether Chris Sky should talk from happening in an open and transparent manner (and seemed to rush decisions)
19:19:27 <midipoet> or does that matter?
19:20:47 <Rucknium[m]> Do we even know if funding was the issue? I'm not sure that Doug has been clear on this.
19:24:09 <midipoet> i think a tweet earlier stated that he had to remove Chris because funding was threatened to be removed. 
19:25:29 <entry1[m]> I don't believe his funding "pulled" was ever on the table.
19:26:07 <selsta> it's possible that someone offered external funding for the event apart from the CCS
19:27:04 <xmrscott[m]> It bears repeating but the con was not a listed expense and the date (April) falls outside the CCS 6 month starting circa August 2020. So any funding is just the free market at play which should be a non-issue
19:27:30 <xmrscott[m]> s/2020/2021/
19:27:55 <xmrscott[m]> s/It bears repeating but the con was not a listed expense and the date (April) falls outside the CCS 6 month starting circa August 2020. So any funding is just the free market at play which should be a non-issue/It bears repeating but the con was not a listed expense and the date (April) falls outside the CCS 6 month starting circa August 2021. So any funding is just the free market sponsors at play which should be a non-issue/
19:28:01 <midipoet> ah ok - maybe i read this incorrect (i probably did) - "I was going to let the community vote but some powerful figures in the community are threatening to effectively cancel the entire event if the outcome is in Chris's favor. Not even MoneroTopia is safe from cancel culture. "
19:29:03 <sudo_ki[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "Do we even know if funding was..." <- No, however it's the only assumption possible with his statement reading being cancelled
19:29:25 <selsta> is Tone Vays still an invited speaker? lol
19:29:33 <midipoet> CANCEL THAT IDIOT
19:29:42 <midipoet> i'll pay to cancel him
19:29:47 <midipoet> 0.2 XMR
19:29:50 <midipoet> highest bid
19:30:18 <sudo_ki[m]> XD
19:30:23 <Rucknium[m]> sudo_ki: 
19:30:23 <Rucknium[m]> https://nitter.net/DouglasTuman/status/1457781181143924742
19:30:31 <Rucknium[m]> >I was forced to act as speakers were dropping and others pressured. Having @hyc_symas is much more vital than Chris, especially given his lack of understanding by lumping together the protocol and conference. I would have waited to learn more about the accusations.
19:30:39 <jonah_xd[m]> midipoet: What did I miss ?
19:32:17 <Rucknium[m]> I think it could be just other Monero speakers didn't want to be on the same stage as Chris. As i mentioned, I don't think everything is clear. ArticMine has been added to the soapbox speakers list, by the way.
19:32:38 <sudo_ki[m]> Rucknium[m]: Oh nice, thanks
19:33:20 <midipoet> where is all the info on the conference? i feel i am missing a website link
19:33:29 <midipoet> or is everything happening on Twitter?
19:33:51 <midipoet> even cancelling people happened on twitter
19:34:00 <Rucknium[m]> midipoet: https://monerotopia.com/
19:34:00 <Rucknium[m]> Previous versions are on the Wayback Machine
19:34:12 <sudo_ki[m]> So sad, that people lobby in such a stealthy way, why no just come out and say it publicly 
19:34:37 <selsta> ok good no Tone Vays
19:34:45 <sudo_ki[m]> Thiugh not surprising from mods that cant even abide by the tos they ban people by 
19:37:23 <midipoet> sudo_ki[m]: isn't lobbying all about stealth? that is the whole idea, is it not?
19:38:13 <Rucknium[m]> And, did not many people share their views publicly in the massive Reddit thread?
19:38:58 <Rucknium[m]> Some people say "don't discuss this publicly" others say, "don't discuss this privately". Can't make everyone happy.
19:39:16 <selsta> Rucknium[m]: yes, it literally all was public
19:39:30 <selsta> some people always try to spin some consistency theory
19:42:07 <sudo_ki[m]> midipoet: Well, i would agree that stealth is an intrinsic part, but generally speaking in a just and fair society, it should not be necessary. It should be enough for people to openly go about their business. Not slander publicly and and threaten privately
19:42:39 <Rucknium[m]> selsta: You're right. Consistency theories should stay in statistics where they belong!
19:42:39 <Rucknium[m]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consistency_(statistics)
19:42:41 <selsta> conspiracy even
19:42:48 <selsta> lol
19:42:53 <selsta> autocorrect
19:53:51 <sudo_ki[m]> Can i ask, why monerotopia is being branded as a private event, when tickets are available to the public?
19:58:02 <midipoet> sudo_ki[m]: i think it's privately funded as opposed to community funded (that is my understanding anyway). Doug's efforts are community funded, but the event not
19:59:05 <midipoet> so i think this was the issue with the 'community vote'. i.e even if the community had wanted to maintain Chris as a speaker, the funder of the event may not have wanted him as a speaker.
19:59:18 <midipoet> ^ i may be incorrect on this though
20:07:07 <sudo_ki[m]> 🙃 things really ought not to be so messy, but here we are 
20:08:02 <midipoet> you know though - i do wonder how much 'Monero and chilling' there would have been at an event with such a divisive figure. i mean, we have had it up to our eyeballs with pandemic crap (both sides), so do we really need the first Monero event to stir up a load of pandemic crap? i couldn't think of anything more tedious, myself.  i miss Vegas, getting free drinks, and gambling shitty fiat money away with friends and peers. 
20:08:52 <nioc> !tip midipoet 1 barolo
20:09:23 <lza_menace> +100 midipoet
20:18:58 <sudo_ki[m]> <midipoet> "you know though - i do wonder..." <- I'm also some what glad he's not going to be there :) but the methods of his removal are utterly distasteful
20:19:29 <sudo_ki[m]> * I'm also some what glad he's not going to be there :) but the methods used for his removal are utterly distasteful
20:46:56 <surgeon_[m]> I agree it was a good idea to not have him at the event, but the way it was handled was absolutely disgusting. It also exposes a weakness thats not in the codebase: the people in the community. Its probably best to compartmentalize and create a new Identity or remain anonymous if one becomes a member of the community. While this time this came from a few members within the community, next time it could be a lot of mainstream
20:46:56 <surgeon_[m]> attention. I'm glad many devs chose to remain anonymous, maybe that should be even a requirement in the future? 
21:11:15 <sgp_> how could you require someone to be anonymous?
21:15:13 <surgeon_[m]> I will rephrase, anonymous is technically speaking a big ask. Pseudonymous would be more accurate.
21:16:32 <bevanoff[m]1> The whole drama is over an in person conference… 🤦‍♂️
21:16:51 <Moneroship[m]> that seems like a big deal over nothing imo
21:17:03 <Moneroship[m]> just dont focus the monero community around a social network like reddit where "hive mind wins"
21:17:09 <Moneroship[m]> ie - whoever gets the most "upvotes"
21:17:10 <Moneroship[m]> thats it.
21:17:23 <Moneroship[m]> no requiring anything from anyone...
21:17:35 <Moneroship[m]> matrix is a good place for monero
21:20:28 * Moneroship[m] uploaded a video: (1734KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/monero.social/LLerTcqhuqsJIjHqiCPrBewL/democracy%2C%20but%20the%20people%20are%20retarded.%20(1).mp4 >
21:20:29 <Moneroship[m]> ^reddit.
21:21:18 <surgeon_[m]> bevanoff[m]1: I see a different problem: whether justified morally or in the best interest of the community or not, people can exert pressure on you if you're not using a pseudonym. You can be harassed either online through twitter all the way to people showing up or calling your place of work/home if those details can be known. I dont see why this threat model seems ridiculous.
21:22:05 <surgeon_[m]> How many death threats would you or your spouse accept before you remove yourself from a community? 
21:26:31 <midipoet> I don't see how self moderation/censorship (whatever you want to call it) of a community is a weakness
21:27:02 <midipoet> Chris Sky was a divisive figure, I think that was clear
21:27:46 <Rucknium[m]> surgeon_: I think it's a personal decision, though. Requiring it? That's a separate matter entirely. Are you a dev by the way?
21:27:49 <midipoet> I didn't see many respected contributors to the Monero project really stand by him as a choice of speaker. It was mostly random voices/nyms from the gallery. 
21:28:31 <midipoet> Having said that, I think it would be good to have a discussion about how to allow all people to speak at these conferences. 
21:28:47 <midipoet> That didn't happen, for whatever reason, but could have.
21:33:06 <Moneroship[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "surgeon_: I think it's a..." <- I agree also devs are decentralized - they arent all in one location
21:33:06 <Moneroship[m]> & if one is compromised the others will quickly go private if they arent already.
21:33:06 <Moneroship[m]> This is a silly concern imo
21:33:47 <carrington[m]> It is a 1 day conference. I'm sure enough interesting, relevant people can be found without involving "controversial" morons.
21:34:05 <Moneroship[m]> id be more worried about social engineering platforms like reddit that have 'hive mind' & 'democracy' built-in..
21:40:34 <surgeon_[m]> <Moneroship[m]> "id be more worried about..." <- This is what I'm talking about. not a single conference
22:43:35 <boogerlad[m]> Any Canadians here? I work at an exchange and I'm trying hard to list Monero. Curious to see how much interest there is
22:46:48 <boogerlad[m]> and before anyone asks, yes there is kyc :(
22:46:50 <xmrscott[m]> boogerlad[m]: ArticMine is probably the most famous Monero related Canadian
22:47:48 <boogerlad[m]> I'm almost certain articmine has more than enough xmr hahaha
22:49:17 <nikg83[m]> <boogerlad[m]> "Any Canadians here? I work at an..." <- Are there plenty of Canadian exchanges with xmr ? If no, then you should get decent volume 
22:53:41 <xmrscott[m]> Even if he has lots of XMR I feel he would have a good idea of how much demand there might be given his background on tx fee demand and generally active through socializing w/ the community
22:54:10 <xmrscott[m]> Thus wouldn't hurt to message him in some form
22:56:46 <boogerlad[m]> yeah looking at the canadian market, there doesn't seem to be anyone supporting xmr
22:56:56 <boogerlad[m]> I'll reach out to articmine :)
23:00:13 <selsta> there was a canadian exchange that supported it but they delisted it
23:00:38 <selsta> the company that was responsible for their cold storage didn't support monero IIRC
23:00:45 <selsta> at least that was what they said as the reason
23:09:20 <rupee[m]> <selsta> "the company that was responsible..." <- Yes, that’s Newton. They need a custodian that supports it.
23:09:46 <rupee[m]> the custodian was balance, but Newton is the app that had to delist it
23:10:31 <rupee[m]> they want to add it back, but it looks like it's going to take a while to get a custodian to add support for it
23:12:55 <rupee[m]> Canadian regulators don't like self custody