01:11:18 <crypto_grampy[m]> Hey all, we're planning on having a Figma whiteboarding session tomorrow at 1800 UTC to go over ideas for a Monero Node GUI / System tray thing related to this MoneroBounty: https://bounties.monero.social/posts/8/desktop-service-gui-for-running-a-monero-node-on-boot-in-the-background
01:12:04 <crypto_grampy[m]> If you want to participate, feel free to join the conversation in the Monero UX channel
01:12:21 <crypto_grampy[m]> s/Hey all, we're planning on having a Figma whiteboarding session tomorrow at 1800 UTC to go over ideas for a Monero Node GUI / System tray thing related to this MoneroBounty: https://bounties.monero.social/posts/8/desktop-service-gui-for-running-a-monero-node-on-boot-in-the-background/Hey all, we're planning on having a Figma whiteboarding session tomorrow at 1800 UTC to go over ideas for a Monero Node GUI / System tray thing
01:12:21 <crypto_grampy[m]> related to Seth For Privacy 's MoneroBounty: https://bounties.monero.social/posts/8/desktop-service-gui-for-running-a-monero-node-on-boot-in-the-background/
01:14:00 <crypto_grampy[m]> https://matrix.to/#/#monero-ux:monero.social
08:47:58 <dEBRUYNE> Where will this session be held?
08:48:11 <dEBRUYNE> nvm, should have read the rest of the post :p
08:59:36 <bridgerton[m]> <𝙲𝙴𝚁𝚄𝙻𝙴𝙾𝚄𝚂> sirs is there any way to send the GUI client to the system tray
09:00:04 <bridgerton[m]> <𝙲𝙴𝚁𝚄𝙻𝙴𝙾𝚄𝚂> oh nvm that's what the bounty is aboout
12:12:22 <mj-xmr[m]> For the record. I will post the essence here, since I don't want to mess around with Reddit's policies.
12:12:22 <mj-xmr[m]> The question was, why I chose GPL over MIT for my simulator:
12:12:23 <mj-xmr[m]> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/qqx4vd/comment/hk6k22f/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
12:12:33 <mj-xmr[m]> "I don't want to mention too many company names here, but please research the history of the BSD operating system or contact me privately, if you wish."
12:12:54 <mj-xmr[m]> https://apple.stackexchange.com/a/345862  <-- here's the full answer
12:13:17 <mj-xmr[m]> "GPL v.3 license, as opposed to MIT (Expat actually) or BSD licenses, prevents any entity from locking improvements of certain software from the Community, since for MIT&BSD such act would only require an attribution, but not necessarily the corresponding source code. History showed that it can happen to major software."
12:14:50 <mj-xmr[m]> Wasn't this exactly what happened to the XMR-Stak?
12:15:05 <mj-xmr[m]> And many people were wondering: "HOW!?"
12:44:05 <sech1> MIT license is toooo permissive
12:44:11 <sech1> I use GPLv3 for p2pool too
12:45:39 <sech1> and for the same reason
12:59:29 <mj-xmr[m]> (MIT license it the license of Monero)
13:34:18 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> What happened to xmr-stak?
13:49:30 <mj-xmr[m]> <bridgerton[m]> "<eli> What happened to xmr-stak?" <- As far as I remember (I only briefly skimmed the flamewar on FUK's page), he took Monero's code, optimized it, and then released it as close source commercial plugin.
13:49:43 <mj-xmr[m]> But feel free to correct me.
13:52:43 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Isn't it open source though? Or are you saying that it was closed source before he open sourced it. But then how do you know he optimized the open source code if it was closed source at the time?
13:57:26 <mj-xmr[m]> bridgerton: only `XMR-STAK-RX` is free. He also offers 2 alternatives, which I can't find source code for.
13:58:05 <mj-xmr[m]> So he still actually didn't screw it all very hard, since even the `RX` variant, based on `tevador/RandomX` uses BSD license as well (very similar to Monero's MIT)
13:58:53 <mj-xmr[m]> "Or are you saying that it was closed source before he open sourced it."
13:58:54 <mj-xmr[m]> I'm saying the the opposite about the 2 non-free variants.
13:59:49 <mj-xmr[m]> So he optimized it locally, and never published the changes. Which is exactly the case, that I'm describing. And the license doesn't prohibit him against it.
13:59:56 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> RagerX.lol?
14:00:02 <mj-xmr[m]> *against doing it.
14:00:18 <mj-xmr[m]> Yes.
14:01:02 <mj-xmr[m]> and never published the changes. -> and never published the SOURCES of the changes.
14:02:15 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> People don't actually trust it. Right?
14:03:10 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Well not anymore that is
14:03:13 <mj-xmr[m]> I think they don't, but this is a particularity of the author in this case.
14:03:40 <bridgerton[m]> s/<eli> Well not anymore that is/<eli> Well not anymore. I was before if they used it./
14:03:47 <bridgerton[m]> <sech1> Optimizations in ragerx were questionable (at best), so we didn't lose much
14:04:23 <Siren[m]> <mj-xmr[m]> ""GPL v.3 license, as opposed..." <- When people say MIT they're referring to either Expat or X11 license.
14:04:30 <Siren[m]> Which is confusing
14:04:41 <Siren[m]> There's no such thing as a MIT license
14:05:29 <mj-xmr[m]> To be clear: I'm not making a case against Monero's license, but explaining what can happen with my own software if I choose the same license. And I'm just using an example, that you're all familiar with.
14:09:15 <bridgerton[m]> <sech1> MIT license or whatever the correct name is, is a bit toothless IMHO.
14:09:44 <mj-xmr[m]> <bridgerton[m]> "<sech1> Optimizations in..." <- Apple, on the other hand didn't loose peoples' confidence, and has made a kick-ass alternative to Windows, using BSD licensed software written for free... and made a fortune, not necessarily giving anything back to the original authors, and not letting the community take part in development or provide alternatives.
14:09:58 <bridgerton[m]> <sech1> It doesn't encourage open source code
14:11:24 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Well that's the point
14:12:24 <mj-xmr[m]> And I'm happy that there is an alternative to Windows, but for me it's a "lesson learned"
14:12:26 <bridgerton[m]> <sech1> Maybe it's better for short-term adoption by 3rd parties. But long term I prefer to see more 3rd parties open sourcing their code to be able to use GPL code
14:13:22 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Personally I don't like to write open source because I'm forced to. I do it because I want to. If you don't want to write open source, it's fine as long as you aren't incorporating my code to **compete with my software**
14:13:34 <bridgerton[m]> s/**/*/, s/**/*/
14:13:52 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> You in this case is a forker or corporation
14:14:02 <louipc00D> to hell with copyrights and patents
14:14:11 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> And if I got paid I'd be willing to even cc-0 release that code
14:16:06 <mj-xmr[m]> "it's fine as long as you aren't incorporating my code to *compete with my software*"
14:16:06 <mj-xmr[m]> Unfortunately only GPLv.3 allows you to have any argument in the court against the forker.
14:16:37 <mj-xmr[m]> Flame wars are always welcome :)
14:16:52 <louipc00D> your code your choice
14:18:02 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Wdym only GPL 3? If the license says what the terms are, then that's what the terms are 🤣
14:19:19 <mj-xmr[m]> Right, but the GPLv.4 license: 1) has already been written by lawyers for you, and 2) has already been tested in court to be effective
14:19:26 <mj-xmr[m]> v.3 I mean
14:19:59 <mj-xmr[m]> I personally don't know of any other OSS license that meets all these conditions.
14:20:32 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> It restricts well meaning people from incorporating techniques and code into non competing software.
14:21:39 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Case in point are ffmpeg vs. a free music player at the time. The ffmpeg devs went ape shit over a dev who made a free music player because the dev didn't distribute the source code for the ffmpeg DLLs or something 🤣.
14:21:40 <bridgerton[m]> s/are/is/
14:23:03 <mj-xmr[m]> They were right in essence. Not that they had to go ape shit from the start though :)
14:24:13 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Right in essence? It's not right to me
14:25:46 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> I created a vlc library wrapper in Python to use in my music player. If I used GPL, that'd give me the right to sue anyone that simply used the vlc wrapper I created.
14:26:43 <bridgerton[m]> * I created assuming they had close sourced software.
14:27:44 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> I don't use GPL because it's pro user rather than pro development and I don't use mit because mit protects libraries not end user software. Simple.
14:28:33 <bridgerton[m]> <sech1> Software is written for users 🤷
14:28:53 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Code is written and used by developers..
14:29:19 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> I wrote software for users but I don't want to restrict developers that may want to use a piece of my code.
14:30:07 <bridgerton[m]> <sech1> Even if these developers work for a corp that will make billions off your code?
14:30:23 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Sure.
14:30:52 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> If they can make billions, they'd have to be massively improve peoples' lives around the world. Direct or indirectly.
14:33:05 <mj-xmr[m]> It's already an optimistic assumption for a military contractor. But even if we're talking about Apple still, if I were the BSD coder, I'd feel screwed. This is what differs you and me.
14:33:06 <bridgerton[m]> <sech1> That's a bit naive. Corps only care about profits and answer to shareholders, not people around the world.
14:37:18 <mj-xmr[m]> It MAY lead to improvement of people around the world as a side effect of what you say, sech1, or it may not (for a military contractor), but still, I respect eli's altruistic opinion :)
14:37:19 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Traditionally profits means giving consumers something of value. GPL doesn't make corporations do the right thing. GPL makes corporations run their own software. What does that mean? That means that the wheel has been built more than 2 time. That instead of iterating the car, a new one was made from scratch every time.
14:37:54 <mj-xmr[m]> eli: good point, but I personally don't need the corporations.
14:38:10 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> It means that more vulnerabilities can be created because of having to redo work in a different way even though it has already been done before
14:38:22 <mj-xmr[m]> in fact, I can confirm, that GPLv3 has been causing a lot pain in the car industry where I have worked.
14:38:36 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> I'd rather people make software that looks good and runs good using my code than then trying to create, copy, and worse not do it at all.
14:39:00 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> We see this already. We've made exponential progress in CPU, ram, storage, internet speeds over the past 2 decades
14:39:08 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> But websites are bloated.
14:39:17 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Devs have to use the next j's framework
14:40:19 <mj-xmr[m]> Well, websites are written mainly by artists, not engineers, IMO.
14:40:29 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> I'm not saying it's a license thing. But it's a philosophy thing for sure for people to purposely choose the "new wheel" instead of the "wheel" that could've been improved on...
14:41:05 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Lol what. Writing a website uses a different part of my brain but that doesn't make it completely "design." design is easy, implementation is hard.
14:41:33 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> This is too subjective now
14:42:19 <mj-xmr[m]> It is after all the flexible line.
14:49:25 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> I have a question for you since you said you don't need corporations
14:49:38 <mj-xmr[m]> Yeah?
14:49:52 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> If sent a Google docs link that does not require you to sign in, do you think it's overkill that stallman refuses to run "close sourced JavaScript"
14:50:06 <Rucknium[m]> This is a good conversation for #monero-beef:monero.social 
14:50:34 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> There's no beef here
14:50:46 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> I'm not trying to convince mj of anything
14:50:53 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> I'm trying to figure out where he's coming from
14:51:42 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Btw I'm on discord
14:51:46 <mj-xmr[m]> Imagine a world, where Google doesn't exist... 
14:51:46 <mj-xmr[m]> This is where I come from :)
14:52:54 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Just answer the question though
14:52:56 <mj-xmr[m]> But seriously this is indeed getting a bit hard. No a beef, but I've got some work to do. Sorry.
14:53:03 <mj-xmr[m]> *Not
14:53:11 <bridgerton[m]> <sech1> Every software company builds their own wheels all the time, trust me I've seen it countless times working in game dev 😄
14:54:46 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Game dev another story, all it takes is one thing to be off and a whole new engine gets created 😂
14:58:14 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Is Godot not used by any businesses?
15:05:49 <Siren[m]> It's pretty good so probably someone out there is using it
15:08:17 <Siren[m]> <bridgerton[m]> "<eli> It means that more..." <- This is a good thing as it forces corporations to open source their code in order to use what is already available under GPl 
15:08:22 <Siren[m]> * This is a good thing as it forces corporations to open source their code in order to use what is already available under GPL
15:10:17 <Siren[m]> Oops I hope my replies aren't making the bridge trip
16:11:02 <rojiro> can someone recommend a good open source matrix client for Linux? I'd like to build from source and I also am not interested in using a bunch and deciding on one. Bonus points if there is a client that actually works with e2e encryption in the cli
16:25:21 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Okay I'll give one last reply. 
16:25:21 <bridgerton[m]> You misinterpreted my statement. Corporations are not forced to open source their code. They can avoid using GPL code altogether and this results in double the vulnerabilities.
16:29:56 <Siren[m]> I did not misinterpret. As a person who doesn't even use proprietary software on a daily basis I'm fine with that. There's no reason for me to sympathize with a corporation.
16:31:46 <Siren[m]> Plus it's a win for the GPL alternative if the proprietary software is riddled with vulnerabilities 
16:33:36 <ct[m]> sgp_: I've recommended lbry.com/odysee.com before, stating it is a much better alternative to youtube. You were quite dismissive because "it has no moderation". The true reason I dislike youtube is not because of the moderation, but because they constantly make the platform worse, like they did now by removing downvotes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvOnvDJbKsc).
16:35:45 <sgp_> ct.: the MCW YT channel and the Monero Space YT channel are bridged to Odysee
16:35:50 <sgp_> they have been for weeks
16:37:48 <ct[m]> and I am very grateful for that. I'm not critisizing you, I just felt like I didn't get my point across last time. (sorry for being offtopic)
16:39:12 <sgp_> okay, well they are there now
16:39:30 <sgp_> @monerocommunityworkgroup
16:39:39 <crypto_grampy[m]> escapethe3ra: Just tested out your Twitter metatag stuff.  Working great!  Twitter users should 100% start sharing Monero.Observer articles (if they weren't already) 
16:39:48 * crypto_grampy[m] uploaded an image: (358KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/monero.social/pEccTuKxtAyojJToBpqjnuZN/image.png >
16:39:58 <crypto_grampy[m]> looks like this
16:40:08 <crypto_grampy[m]> * Twitter metatag/preview stuff.
16:42:09 <sgp_> the MCW channel has 44 views on Odysee and 194k on YouTube
16:44:58 <ct[m]> I have seen the content on youtube because it wasn't available on odysee last year (when I started to care about monero). I'm not re-watching the content to pump up odysee numbers.
16:45:05 <crypto_grampy[m]> what happened to monero coffee chats
16:46:32 <sgp_> crypto_grampy: I do the Monero Meets instead. They're effectively the same
16:47:31 <crypto_grampy[m]> i guess that's more welcoming to tea drinkers
16:48:48 <sgp_> yup
16:55:39 <crypto_grampy[m]> friendly reminder, that there will be a Monero UX whiteboarding session on this bounty: https://bounties.monero.social/posts/8/desktop-service-gui-for-running-a-monero-node-on-boot-in-the-background in about 2 hours.  You'll need a Figma account to edit (possibly view?) the whiteboard
16:56:29 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> 2pm or 1pm est?
16:58:23 <crypto_grampy[m]> s/2/3/
16:58:30 <crypto_grampy[m]> 1 PM EST 😄
17:00:36 <crypto_grampy[m]> s/about/1/, s/2 hours/hour/
18:21:57 <monero-cultist[m> Is this matrix.monero.social?
18:22:00 <monero-cultist[m> Having trouble 
18:22:13 <monero-cultist[m> Finding the "correct" one 
18:23:37 <Rucknium[m]> monero-cultist: This is one of many Monero Matrix channels.
18:23:51 <monero-cultist[m> Ah kk
18:30:17 <nero-cultist[m]> So 
18:30:21 <nero-cultist[m]> Basically 
18:30:29 <nero-cultist[m]> Made this ALT 
18:30:38 <nero-cultist[m]> Just because I wanted to be sure that it directs you to a bunch of rooms instead of one central one 
18:30:40 <nero-cultist[m]> Because I'm sped 
18:38:11 <crypto_grampy[m]> if you're not in at least 30 xmr rooms you're ngmi
18:38:35 <crypto_grampy[m]> you vill be left behind, you vill eat ze bug
18:40:16 <nero-cultist[m]> Lol
18:43:18 <nero-cultist[m]> Who here 
18:43:29 <nero-cultist[m]> Would create an xmr eSports league 
18:43:34 <nero-cultist[m]> And or support one 
18:53:27 <nioc> crypto_grampy[m]: even if I lossen the definition I still am only in 28
18:53:35 <nioc> loosen
18:54:38 <crypto_grampy[m]> can someone chart how much overlap there is in each of these rooms? it's just the same people in each one, right?
21:37:40 <escapethe3ra[m]> <crypto_grampy[m]> "escapethe3ra: Just tested out..." <- Thanks for letting me know. If a specific report doesn't have its own image, it is set to display a default. What you see there is actually the first graphic/banner that I have designed for the site and it is now used as both 404 image and Twitter default: https://www.monero.observer/assets/img/monero-banner.png
22:21:58 <Rucknium[m]> My CCS proposal to fortify Monero's ring signature privacy model against statistical attack is now ready for funding:
22:21:58 <Rucknium[m]> https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/Rucknium-OSPEAD-Fortifying-Monero-Against-Statistical-Attack.html
22:23:19 <bitlamas[m]> good to know, I've been waiting for this one
22:23:21 <bitlamas[m]> tried to post on reddit but as always my post went to the moderation queue, someone with more points can repost I guess
22:23:24 <mj-xmr[m]> (...) is now ready for funding, THAT IT DESERVED ALL THE TIME (Editor's note)