01:11:44 <Torr> Do you receive your wages in Monero?
01:19:50 <Rucknium[m]> Torr: CCS proposers receive payment in XMR, yes.
01:22:01 <Torr> Hm
01:30:49 <atomfried[m]> Hey Rucknium i would like to know if, after your public statement that you handed in a vulnerability response and the whole OSPEAD thing, any entity contacted you and asked you to release it to them, or offered you anything for it in return :D
01:30:50 <atomfried[m]> Not that i think that you did that or anything, it was just coming to my mind that if i would be cyphertrace or the IRS, i would try to buy you, so i thought i would just ask you if that happend 😅
01:31:54 <atomfried[m]>  * Hey Rucknium i would like to know if, after your public statement that you handed in a vulnerability response and the whole OSPEAD thing, did any entity contact you and/or asked you to release the vulnerability it to them, or offered you anything for it in return :D
01:31:55 <atomfried[m]> Not that i think that you did that or anything, it was just coming to my mind that if i would be cyphertrace or the IRS, i would try to buy you, so i thought i would just ask you if that happend 😅
03:48:38 <Rucknium[m]> atomfried: No. No such entity has contacted me. 
04:36:15 <bridgerton[m]> <DuranDuran> among us?
04:53:03 <plowsof[m]> https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/Rucknium-OSPEAD-Fortifying-Monero-Against-Statistical-Attack.html 
07:42:17 <bridgerton[m]> <𝙲𝙴𝚁𝚄𝙻𝙴𝙾𝚄𝚂> What are the chances cyphertrace knew about it before rucknium
07:43:52 <mj-xmr[m]> I think that the chances are high, but bureaucrats are typically too slow to react to a change. 
11:03:08 <wfaressuissia1> "... By the way: this chart has been added there by accident and automatically by Reddit ..." this chart (anyone is free to publish anything on their own domain) and others would be ignored if they were not used as a proof of usefulness of your PRs
11:03:27 <wfaressuissia1> but that cbta doesn't show correct data
11:04:10 <wfaressuissia1> so incorrect that in some cases there are regress in build time vs 5% advertised by you
11:04:25 <wfaressuissia1> * are regress (>= change) in build, * time vs -5% advertised
11:13:42 <wfaressuissia1> "mj-xmr[m]: What some people have to realize, is that the Community actually PAYS for me having to fight against these peoples' egos. It's not worth their money." the goal is to do improvements that makes monero competitive relatively to others, but your placebo PRs don't help (it only helps to write fairy tails about cool improvements)
11:22:43 <mj-xmr[m]> You are generally right, but not 100%. Anyway, welcome to my ignore list. I don't have time to fuck around with you.
11:24:19 <wfaressuissia1> You have no time for any complex task, probably too old to play in games (think)
11:24:20 <wfaressuissia1> hahaha
11:44:21 <Siren[m]> What a discussion
11:44:21 <Siren[m]> Haha ur old
11:44:23 <mj-xmr[m]> To be fair, not all my PRs are ... extraordinary. But the goal of this one was just to get rid of a certain boost library. If I were to make really big changes, that make a lot of influence in one go, no reviewer would ever want to review this (been there, done that). 
11:44:23 <Siren[m]> * "Haha ur old"
11:44:23 <mj-xmr[m]> Besides these PRs were opened BEFORE I even had a chance to measure the effect with CBTA
11:44:23 <mj-xmr[m]> If somebody wants to discuss it like a human, I'm ready for that.
11:44:44 <mj-xmr[m]> Otherwise, I'm off to OSPEAD :)
12:03:16 <wfaressuissia1> "Haha ur old" it's a reflection of mj-xmr own's words, when I asked few questions related to problem in code, the response was that "I'm tool old to play in games"
12:03:49 <wfaressuissia1> For me it looks like a polite way to dodge work
12:13:23 <wfaressuissia> more obvious and more important
12:13:23 <wfaressuissia> "Besides these PRs were opened BEFORE ..." it's probably one of the most unimportant problem (to fight with build time) in monero code since blackbox approach doesn't work (your placebo PRs) and if someone has any knowledge about code itself then there are more obvious problems that must be solved firstly
12:15:13 <wfaressuissia> "https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-dev/20210803#c11537", "What a discussion" siren[m] reflection of this
12:21:33 <john_r365[m]> wfaressuissia[m] - out of interest - what's the specific thrust of what you're trying to get at here? What change would you like to see? It seems like you're critical of some of mj's work. Which is ok - not everyone is going to value everyone else's work equally. So I'm just trying to understand the larger picture?
13:42:37 <wfaressuissia> "... not everyone is going to value everyone else's work equally. " there are objective (verifiable things) and subjective (non verifiable), that work is objectively useless (regress of measurement, that was advertised as primary target)
13:44:33 <wfaressuissia> "... So I'm just trying to understand the larger picture?" In general, it's competition between people that are solving tasks
13:45:00 <wfaressuissia> currently, I'm pointing that someone failed to solve some task
13:45:38 <wfaressuissia> *...  tasks relevant to monero progress, not arbitrary tasks
14:49:58 <john_r365[m]> wfaressuissia[m] - thanks for the reply.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/e53299e189dd511a5307622a46295ccc700bc66a)
14:57:31 <wfaressuissia> "https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/7000" advertised: decreased 14-19%, in my test there is only ~9% (or 240s absolute time vs 45m of total build time)
14:57:52 <wfaressuissia> effect of two other build time PRs isn't tested by me
14:58:21 <mj-xmr[m]> These 2 branches were never paid for, will not be, if they're not merged, and I don't force anybody to merge anything. Especially if they find them unworthy of merging.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/5993fabc454db8bb974dc5fe268e238c6835d537)
14:58:54 <wfaressuissia> "Fair enough. Not every shot on goal will go in." It isn't gambling, it's discrete problem where result can be verified by anyone
15:00:01 <wfaressuissia> "... to these two branches from >1 year ago (that aren’t merged) ..." it isn't the last problem :)
15:02:11 <wfaressuissia> experienced (15+) c++ dev isn't a member of kindergarten 
15:02:43 <mj-xmr[m]> Also the measurement tools, that I use, were also pushed to Monero-core by me, so that anybody can verify my work. I'm not afraid of this at all. But the discussions with wfaressuissia have been irritating me for a long time.
15:04:47 <wfaressuissia> that tool is broken, why do you mention that it was pushed into repo now ?
15:05:38 <wfaressuissia> "They were opened before I was able to do proper measurements" it's otherwise, proper measurement is easy (just `time executable ...` and it shows no difference), while that cbta doesn't work and shows inadequate numbers
15:11:31 <wfaressuissia> "Fourthly, my current proposal is mostly about a simulation for the OSPEAD ..." against work dodging
15:11:48 <wfaressuissia> it's probably professional kung-fu which I don't know since I'm too young
15:12:15 <wfaressuissia> s/against/again
15:16:17 <mj-xmr[m]> With that said, I can't see what wfaressuissia writes back, since they landed on my ignore list, so I hope, that they're simply happy with the answer, so that I can go back to coding finally.
15:16:17 <mj-xmr[m]> Thanks for reading and sorry for the drama :)
17:12:37 <wfaressuissia> "... to coding" hahaha
17:44:23 <wfaressuissia> polite dodging of work
18:03:16 <john_r365[m]> wfaressuissia[m] - what's your Github handle?
18:03:16 <john_r365[m]> I was having a look for your contributions on the PR's your criticizing - but couldn't find them
18:03:17 <john_r365[m]> Are they under a different pseudonym?
18:07:31 <wfaressuissia> How is it related to pointed verifiable problem ?
18:08:56 <wfaressuissia> comments ?
18:08:57 <wfaressuissia> "... having a look for you contributions on the PR's your criticizing" what does it ("contributions on the PR's") mean ? 
18:26:42 <john_r365[m]> It's related because:
18:26:42 <john_r365[m]> - In almost everything in life - it’s much easier to criticize things than to figure how to help/fix/improve them. The latter takes more work.
18:26:42 <john_r365[m]> - The primary mechanism by which we improve code in this project is through discussion and contributions on Github.
18:26:42 <john_r365[m]> That’s where this discussion really ought to go in my opinion. If you understand how to fix the problem, please contribute to it on Github.
18:30:23 <Rucknium[m]> wfaressuissia[m]: What I see as someone who doesn't really understand the technical aspect of this debate is someone (you) tearing down a contributor to a project that already has way too few programmers for how important it is.
18:31:04 <Rucknium[m]> The Monero Project does not yet have a critical shortage of contributors to its core protocol, but it is uncomfortably close to such a shortage.
18:32:20 <Rucknium[m]> The Monero Research Lab is already well into the "red line" in terms of labor. We need to be vigilant that the dev side also not go into the red zone.
18:32:44 <wfaressuissia> "... someone who doesn't really understand the technical aspect of this debate is someone (you) ..." are you joking ? I don't unerstand ?
18:34:19 <wfaressuissia> "... We need to be vigilant that the dev side also not go into the red zone. ... " So you suggest to blindly accept any code since there is a shortage of people ?
18:34:28 <Rucknium[m]> I am saying that I don't understand the technical aspect of the debate.
18:36:06 <wfaressuissia> No, the solution is to adequately react to solutions (failed attempts are bad, successful attempts are good), otherwise you will disqualify work
18:36:18 <Rucknium[m]> Some of mj-xmr  's code apparently went through the Monero dev review process and was accepted. I think you are saying that mj-xmr 's contributions are unneeded or something
18:36:19 <wfaressuissia> What's the point to solve real problems if someone else could just write fairy tails ?
18:36:25 <wfaressuissia> and anyone will blindly accept it 
18:36:54 <Rucknium[m]> Did you take it up with luigi1111 , as the lead maintainer?
18:38:10 <wfaressuissia> it isn't corporations, it's open source, there is no such thing as lead maintainer
18:38:48 <Rucknium[m]> If you think you can fix something in the Monero code base, then do it.
18:38:48 <wfaressuissia> * corporation
18:41:04 <wfaressuissia> with adequately competitive environment there would be no problems with people that can do work properly
18:42:56 <wfaressuissia> the only criterion is whether task is solved or not, everything else (years of programming experience, ...) should not matter
18:43:12 <Rucknium[m]> wfaressuissia[m]: As far as the Monero Core Team is concerned, yes there is a Lead Maintainer position
18:43:12 <Rucknium[m]> https://web.getmonero.org/2019/12/16/technical-responsibilities-update.html
18:44:15 <Rucknium[m]> wfaressuissia[m]: Sure. For more competition you need more people willing and able to supply labor to the Monero Project. 
18:44:31 <Rucknium[m]> In the cryptosphere, development talent is now extremely scarce.
18:45:35 <wfaressuissia> For competition the only requirement is to apply the same rules to everyone, tasks and reward
18:46:10 <Rucknium[m]> Definitely not. You need thicker markets to reap the benefits of competition.
18:47:30 <Rucknium[m]> The market for Monero programmer labor on the supply side is very thin right now.
18:49:08 <Rucknium[m]> The problem is compounded by the fact that nearly all benefits to development on an open source project like Monero are, in effect, externalities.
18:49:37 <Rucknium[m]> So it is hard to have a "revenue stream" to pay the costs of development.
18:49:54 <wfaressuissia> Are you judging by yourself ?
18:49:55 <Rucknium[m]> Which harms talent acquisition.
18:50:04 <wfaressuissia> There are enough people with working brain that can solve complex problems 
18:50:23 <wfaressuissia> but there is no adequate competition 
18:50:37 <Rucknium[m]> Judging what? Yes I arrive at my own judgements on a lot of things.
18:51:06 <wfaressuissia> "Definitely not. You need thicker markets to reap the benefits of competition.", "So it is hard to have a "revenue stream" to pay the costs of development." these replies
18:51:29 <Rucknium[m]> I am an empirical microeconomist. I know of what I speak.
18:51:56 <wfaressuissia> Maybe, I can't verify this badge "I'm an empirical microeconomist"
18:52:22 <Rucknium[m]> You don't need to. My work speaks for itself.
18:52:53 <wfaressuissia> There is no yet any public verifiable metric for your work too
18:53:32 <Rucknium[m]> Good research takes time.
18:54:28 <Rucknium[m]> I am one of only two people who have positive reputation points in Monero's HackerOne Vulnerability Disclosure Program in 2021.
18:55:16 <Rucknium[m]> https://hackerone.com/monero/thanks/2021
18:56:15 <wfaressuissia> I don't like any form of authority, man in the middle, badges. For me there are only tasks and their solutions
18:57:21 <Rucknium[m]> I reviewed this PR just 6 hours ago
18:57:21 <Rucknium[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/8047
18:57:48 <Rucknium[m]> wfaressuissia[m]: Anyway, things will play out in due time. I don't see what you are even attempting to accomplish here.
18:59:29 <wfaressuissia> "Which harms talent acquisition." what's the criterion of talent ? it's unverifiable property
19:00:16 <Rucknium[m]> wfaressuissia[m]: Again I ask: What is your purpose here?
19:00:57 <wfaressuissia> It would not be possible to verify it, what's the point to ask ?
19:04:32 <Rucknium[m]> wfaressuissia[m]: You are devolving into solipsism. I'm going to shift my attention back to real work. I may be back to this chat in a few hours.
19:40:08 <wfaressuissia> "The problem is compounded by the fact that nearly all benefits to development on an open source project like Monero are, in effect, externalities." can you name explicitly few benefits and short explanation if it isn't obvious why it's externality ?
19:41:05 <wfaressuissia> "... nearly all benefits ..." and few which are not externalities
21:40:45 <entry1[m]> Concern troll gonna concern troll