03:34:20 <tottles_mcgee[m]> Hi All! I stumbled in from the workgroups page on the Monero site and I had some interest getting involved in the community. I'm currently working as a C# developer for a couple of years now and would like to build something using Monero.
03:35:44 <tottles_mcgee[m]> I have plans to setup a simple receiving address on a blog site and allow for donations from visitors, however, I'm curious if there are other ways to earning monero? 
03:36:18 <tottles_mcgee[m]> I'm sure this question gets asked a lot so I apologize if this seems redundant :(
03:42:29 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Check if anything interests you here: bounties.monero.social (Matrix: #monero-bounties:monero.social)... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/695d7128ba6d23979669dad1a3285d862f0488c3)
03:44:10 <tottles_mcgee[m]> Thanks anarkiocrypto ! I'll check those resources out
04:04:31 <tottles_mcgee[m]> Is the content from the subreddit being mapped over at the Observer?
04:10:31 <tottles_mcgee[m]> ah nevermind - escapethe3RA posts the content. People send request to him through XMPP
06:21:02 <crypto_grampy[m]> https://www.scmagazine.com/news/cloud-security/alibabas-linux-based-cloud-servers-exploited-for-use-by-cryptojackers
08:04:10 <Halver[m]> <tottles_mcgee[m]> "I have plans to setup a simple..." <- See http://moneroar4fiojlkzkvwgt25rp6vifswcpwaxbzlhfkdenczbhc4luqad.onion/page/monero-jobs.php
08:04:10 <Halver[m]> for a short listing of some related links  
08:08:46 <dEBRUYNE> crypto_grampy[m]: Perhaps it would be worthwhile to set up elaborate bounties for guides that show a variety of ways for people from the UK and Australia to buy Monero
08:08:53 <dEBRUYNE> Given that their direct access is somewhat restricted
08:09:26 <Inge> do we know what rules or regulations in UK prompted kraken.uk to drop xmr?
08:10:55 <dEBRUYNE> Was likely a request that was part of their application for the license
12:09:13 <Rucknium[m]> BTC Lightning Network still broken. Monero should think twice before adopting something like it:
12:09:13 <Rucknium[m]> https://nitter.net/DecouvreBitcoin/status/1461007875564871681
12:13:03 <atomfried[m]> have you read the whole thread? problem is not realy LN but that the (governmant)-wallet Chivo ist total shit
12:14:12 <atomfried[m]> thats like saying ohh while sending a monero tx the gui wallet hang for 10 mins (which happend to me some times back then) and because of that i start questioning the whole monero project
12:15:15 <atomfried[m]> the thread even starts: "A short story on how bad the chivo wallet is"
12:16:21 <Rucknium[m]> They've pushed people toward custodial solutions since the LN itself is hard to grapple with. 
12:16:53 <Rucknium[m]> Seriously, how long have they had to work these issues out? I could look up the exact date of the LN white paper
12:17:37 <Rucknium[m]> January 14, 2016. That's almost 6 years
12:18:58 <jwinterm[m]> Lol monero been live longer than that and is certainly not without some serious issues
12:20:55 <Rucknium[m]> LN is a zombie. It's already dead. I do believe there will be a reckoning.
12:23:02 <ComplyLast> there will never be a reckoning
12:23:11 <ComplyLast> it will move and more into custodian solutions
12:23:15 <ComplyLast> and that's how it will work
12:25:03 <Rucknium[m]> Isn't that a type of reckoning, though? Decentralized peer-to-peer electronic cash is dead with BTC+LN.
12:25:47 <ComplyLast> I dont have any such hopes for BTC anyway
12:26:25 <Rucknium[m]> We are back to where we started: banks
12:50:16 <carrington[m]> If Monero has payment channels anyway, we just have to sit back and watch whether BTC ever figures out solutions to LN's problems
12:50:29 <carrington[m]> s/If/When/
13:13:49 <rbrunner> Anyway, about that LN tweet: You are lucky if you are with the CEO of a LN wallet (Breez) and you get the chance to show how a competitor's product (Chivo) does not work
13:34:29 <atomfried[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "LN is a zombie. It's already..." <- i dont know about that, it is constantly growing in #nodes #channels and channel capacity
17:50:25 <libre[m]> I predict some people will also move into liquid wallets
17:50:44 <libre[m]> Is safer than trusting 1 custodial lightning node. At least is a federation of 60 companies
17:51:29 * libre[m] uploaded an image: (101KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/monero.social/TvNXZtrfTMbCbWDqbzSUtbOd/ima_1f7a017.png >
17:52:07 <libre[m]> I’m working on a concept for that. Apps like chivo wallet are a privacy disaster for people in El Salvador. It is legal tender thou, so the people need alternatives.
18:01:30 <rbrunner> I guess you have to start *somewhere* if you have a country with millions of "unbanked"
18:02:33 <Rucknium[m]> Apparently you do that by re-inventing commercial banking. 🤷‍♂️
18:05:12 <atomfried[m]> Rucknium[m]: yeah but for those who want to they CAN use another, non custodial wallet
18:05:59 <rbrunner> I think people in El Salvador couldn't even pay for the traffic that a true, non-custudial cryptocurrency wallet would generate, and the countries mobile networks would break down under the load.
18:06:18 <rbrunner> Ever been in a third-world country for some time?
18:07:17 <Rucknium[m]> rbrunner: Why do you think this?
18:08:06 <louipcm> bitcoin android wallet is non custodial, doesnt take much data as far as i know
18:08:23 <rbrunner> Because I have personal experiences from a similar third-world country. Where those problem "traffic too expensive" and "data traffic capacity small" are pretty obvious
18:08:58 <rbrunner> Yeah, and the fees for one BTC transaction are about a week's salary. Splendid :)
18:09:00 <DaveyJones> now thats mean to call germany thrid world :-p
18:09:25 <rbrunner> Er, no, I don't mean my place, Switzerland.
18:09:39 <Rucknium[m]> With a transparent blockchain, you just need to query a few addresses and broadcast small txs. That's feasible just about anywhere
18:10:06 <rbrunner> And a transparent blockchain is not a "privacy disaster"?
18:10:11 <libre[m]> rbrunner: Liquid txs cost like cents (200 sats)
18:10:28 <Rucknium[m]> And just use BCH. Sub-USD-cent fees.
18:10:30 <sethsimmons> New Monero explorer that is free to use:
18:10:30 <sethsimmons> https://explore.sethforprivacy.com/
18:10:30 <sethsimmons> http://exploredv42tq2nowrll6f27nuymenndwupueqvyugaqzbrvmjhhceqd.onion
18:10:36 <atomfried[m]> rbrunner: oh yes it is ofc :D 
18:10:46 <libre[m]> Moreover RSK is even cheaper and that’s an open federation. But bitociners hate evm/eth technologie
18:11:16 <rbrunner> Does somebody have the traffic generated / needed by a true LN wallet at hand?
18:11:31 <Rucknium[m]> No, transparent blockchain isn't as bad as a government linking personal IDs to the Chivo wallet and seeing all txs.
18:12:19 <rbrunner> Right, of course.
18:12:49 <Rucknium[m]> And then do CoinJoins if users want more privacy. Not as good as Monero, but a big improvement over Chivo.
18:14:42 <rbrunner> Well, you have people complaining about the complicated UI/UX of cryptocurrencies already in first world countries, where e.g. they could easily google for answers.
18:15:12 <rbrunner> Now imagine farmers in El Salvador ...
18:16:57 <anarkiocrypto[m]> Requiring government ID KYC isn't only a privacy problem, it also financially excludes people who don't have ID, who are also unbanked due to this.
18:16:57 <anarkiocrypto[m]> If a "Bitcoin-friendly" business only accepts payments from e.g. Chivo wallet or Bitpay payment gateway, and doesn't accept direct Bitcoin payments, it unnecessarily shuts out people without ID exactly the same as banking, credit cards, Apple Pay, Paypal, etc.
18:17:54 <rbrunner> People without ID? You mean this seriously, I guess? Is this a thing in El Salvador?
18:19:05 <rbrunner> By the way, people *always* forget that Chivo is dual USD / BTC.
18:19:39 <Rucknium[m]> rbrunner: rbrunner: George Donnelly with BCH is literally doing this as we speak. Ok, not in El Salvador, but in other Latin American countries:
18:19:39 <Rucknium[m]> https://forum.bitcoincash.site/
18:19:39 <rbrunner> Even if the BTC experiment fails awfully in El Salvador, you still have people finally "banked"
18:22:02 <anarkiocrypto[m]> AFAIK BlueWallet is KYC-free but custodial (low data usage) if you don't run your own node (which requires a lot of storage and bandwidth).
18:22:57 <libre[m]> rbrunner: You have no idea. I’m from latam, tons of people don’t have drivers license or passport for that matter 
18:24:47 <rbrunner> But they can get *some* kind of id if they want? Otherwise if you don't offer that basic possibility to people, how do you run a country?
18:25:20 <rbrunner> I know bloody well what it means to get a password in a third-world country, thank you very much :)
18:25:25 <rbrunner> *passport
18:25:40 <rbrunner> But *some* kind of id, that's another story.
18:25:57 <nioc> sethsimmons: default dark mode explorer :)
18:25:59 <anarkiocrypto[m]> I can't get some kind of ID and I live in Europe...
18:26:00 <libre[m]> You mean like voting? We can use two witnesses that vouch for your identity in my country
18:26:21 <anarkiocrypto[m]> IDK how it is exactly in South America.
18:26:25 <rbrunner> Something like that, yes.
18:26:42 <sethsimmons> nioc: Of course 😉
18:26:46 <sethsimmons> This is the only way
18:27:16 <libre[m]> Plus we have a gigantic migrant population without id
18:27:21 <libre[m]> And a indigenous one also
18:28:05 <rbrunner> Alright, in a case, doesn't El Salvador claim that half the population has now a Chivo wallet activated? Some people must have ids, then :)
18:28:13 <anarkiocrypto[m]> KYC requires specifically a passport or national ID card, no witnesses or affidavits possible.
18:31:53 <rbrunner> Anyway, it has a reason that government the world over shat their pants when Facebook wanted to introduce Libra: That company would have had the necessary reach, almost everywhere
18:33:29 <rbrunner> Do you think any government would watch if you go into a country, say with BCH, and start to "bank" people by the millions?
18:33:50 <rbrunner> Just watch, and say "Well, nice, let's see how that works out". Yeah, right.
18:34:33 <rbrunner> I mean, obviously I am a fan of cryptocurrencies, like most people here, but please, oh the illusions ...
18:36:02 <rbrunner> Maybe I should step down from the soapbox now and give room to more, er, Monero community things :)
18:38:12 <Rucknium[m]> rbrunner: What is microcredit? Governments "let" that happen, and even encouraged it in many places.
18:40:42 <rbrunner> I guess that did not look too threatening. With a widely used cryptocurrency you aim at the heart of state currency monopoly. Whole other kind of fish, IMHO.
18:41:58 <Rucknium[m]> A lot of governments of developing countries would rather not have a state currency monopoly. Many countries in Latin America have switched to USD.
18:42:22 <Rucknium[m]> Having your own currency as a small country can be tricky.
18:42:39 <rbrunner> Hmmm, yes, that's an argument.
18:43:58 <rbrunner> I wonder whether they will keep the USD should they ever manage to climb up the development ladder and turn into something similar like a first-world country.
18:44:04 <Rucknium[m]> Ecuador uses the USD and it's not even that small. Panama too.
18:44:58 <rbrunner> Must be hard for a government if they can value their currency up or down.
18:45:04 <rbrunner> *can't
18:45:21 <spirobel[m]> <rbrunner> "People without ID? You mean this..." <- also think of people in countries with capital controls like china, india, Argentina etc. Also look at Nigeria trying to ban bitcoin recently. There are so many countries that got used to stealing from their populace via inflation, and it seems like the US and the EU are getting the taste too. We will see capital controls within the next 5 years if we continue with this monetary
18:45:21 <spirobel[m]> policy.  
18:46:45 <rbrunner> Agreed, and in my core, I am optimistic regarding cryptocurrencies helping. Just not in the short timeframe that some people hope for.
18:46:55 <louipcm> govt can still bully ppl around without controlling the currency just fine tho.. unfortunately
18:46:58 <spirobel[m]> capital controls are the next step after printing money. Its inevitable. Either they stop the inflation (which they wont) or we get capital controls. My bet is on capital controls. and capital controls are enforce through KYC
18:47:37 <Rucknium[m]> spirobel: What sort of capital controls are you referring to?
18:47:47 <rbrunner> I have even written a fiction short story in this direction: https://rbrunner7.github.io/moneros.html
18:47:47 <spirobel[m]> louipcm: defeatist take. if we have a system around kyc in the near future, they are fucked.
18:48:23 <louipcm> spirobel[m]: not really. realistic take. there are more steps that's all.
18:48:47 <spirobel[m]> Rucknium[m]: I mean for example india: illegal to hold foreign currency above a certain amount. China: cant exchange to foreign currency above a certain amount
18:50:41 <anarkiocrypto[m]> KYC-free Monero fixes this. Buy Monero without ID for cash, gold/silver, gift cards, products/services, etc. and hold it on your phone or laptop or in cold storage. Use Tor or full-disk encryption if needed.
18:51:43 <louipcm> always use full disk encryption
18:51:47 <louipcm> wtf "if needed"
18:51:51 <louipcm> always needed
18:52:06 <Rucknium[m]> spirobel: Right. Those are capital controls to deal with 
18:52:06 <Rucknium[m]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_trinity
18:52:39 <Rucknium[m]> Usually developed countries don't have those problems since their currency is the global reserve currency.
18:53:09 <anarkiocrypto[m]> The state can't effectively ban P2P trade nor make stings in every P2P transaction. Existing gray markets and black markets survive fine with good opsec.
18:55:51 <spirobel[m]> <rbrunner> "I have even written a fiction..." <- just read it! Great story hihi 🙂
19:01:41 <spirobel[m]> > <@rucknium:monero.social> spirobel: Right. Those are capital controls to deal with 
19:01:41 <spirobel[m]> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impossible_trinity
19:01:41 <spirobel[m]> This is interesting. I listened to mises Theory on Money and Credit recently he makes a similar argument that goes even further. He states very convincingly how a state that inflates the monetary supply needs to take a few steps as a result of this, which essentially mean that it needs to go down a route of coercive measures. Its like you cant have a democratic, liberal (in mises, hayeks sense of the word) state and inflate the
19:01:41 <spirobel[m]> monetary supply arbitrarily. 
19:03:52 <Rucknium[m]> The Impossible Trinity is more or less accepted by mainstream economists, FWIW. It was the original Trilemma before Vitalik came up with one ;)
19:11:09 <spirobel[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "Usually developed countries don..." <- there is this super interesting essay about how the balance sheet of a central bank relates to the exchange rate of its currency: https://www.wiwi.uni-frankfurt.de/fileadmin/user_upload/dateien_abteilungen/abt_ewf/LS_Klump/documents/Personal_information/Dissertation_Ingo_Benjamin_Sauer_Summary.pdf the gist is: the difference between hyperinflation and no hyperinflation is if the
19:11:09 <spirobel[m]> central bank is able to defend the exchange rate with what it has on its balance sheet or not. So the last line of defense is the central bank. But until we get there we can think about where the demand for a currency comes from. I would say for the Euro it is German cars and machines for example and for the US Dollar it is oil. It seems like in the next decade we will switch to electric, so there is a question where the demand for
19:11:09 <spirobel[m]> dollar and euro will come from. Even without printing lots of paper money they are in a bit of a pickle. 
19:13:06 <Rucknium[m]> >there is this super interesting essay about how the balance sheet of a central bank relates to the exchange rate of its currency
19:13:06 <Rucknium[m]> You talk about this as if it is a big revelation. This is standard, mainstream, neoclassical macroeconomics, if I understand your point correctly. 
19:13:13 <Rucknium[m]> I'm just confirming what you said.
19:29:34 <spirobel[m]> > <@rucknium:monero.social> >there is this super interesting essay about how the balance sheet of a central bank relates to the exchange rate of its currency
19:29:34 <spirobel[m]> > 
19:29:34 <spirobel[m]> > You talk about this as if it is a big revelation. This is standard, mainstream, neoclassical macroeconomics, if I understand your point correctly.
19:29:34 <spirobel[m]> Where can I read more about that? like where do they take it into account? I also see the assets on the balance sheet of the central banks are completely absent from public discourse. There is never any talk about the solvency of the central bank. I mean for example if the euro was under huge pressure and the ECB needed to step in. Might be that the liabilities are very long term and the insolvency might be closer than expected. 
19:30:59 <spirobel[m]>  * Where can I read more about that? like where do they take it into account? I also see the assets on the balance sheet of the central banks are completely absent from public discourse. There is never any talk about the solvency of the central bank. I mean for example if the euro was under huge pressure and the ECB needed to step in. Might be that the liabilities are very long term and the insolvency might be closer than expected.
19:30:59 <spirobel[m]> I would just expect more talk about this if it really is taken into account.
19:31:42 <Rucknium[m]> spirobel: Frankly, in any international macroeconomics textbook.
19:34:02 <Rucknium[m]> This is fairly basic. I don't mean to condescend, but this is covered in standard economics courses pretty much anywhere.
19:36:09 <Rucknium[m]> It seems like you're expecting the media to do this education, when it is better learned in formal education. And it is widely taught in formal education.
19:41:34 <spirobel[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "This is fairly basic. I don't..." <- So you say the claim the author makes is not true, and the concept of solvency is usually applied to central banks? And mainstream economics actually takes a close look at this instead of focusing on the money supply when it comes to inflation?
19:43:56 <Rucknium[m]> >the concept of solvency is usually applied to central banks
19:43:56 <Rucknium[m]> Yes, definitely. These are balance of payment crises or currency crises, depending on the specifics and how you want to frame it. Simply put, not enough hard currency in the central bank. I didn't read the article.
19:44:40 <Rucknium[m]> A "run on the central bank" is a "known attack vector" for many developing countries.
19:45:08 <Rucknium[m]> This happens, in particular, when they tried to keep a pegged exchange rate.
19:47:42 <Rucknium[m]> That's why I said earlier that many developing countries maybe don't particularly enjoy having their own currencies. Ecuador, for instance, switched to the USD after a currency crisis. In the midst of one actually, I think.
19:58:24 <spirobel[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "A "run on the central bank" is a..." <- It happens when the issue money that is not backed by any real assets. 
20:01:17 <spirobel[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "It seems like you're expecting..." <- I am not saying the media should provide this education, but I think if something is part of scientific discourse and it is an important part of it, then it will be reflected in the media and in the public discourse as well. And I dont really see this discussion when it comes to the fed or the ecb doing things. There is no talk about if the increase in money supply is backed by
20:01:17 <spirobel[m]> anything or not. 
20:01:59 <spirobel[m]> Can you link me to a textbook to you would recommend reading? 
20:02:09 <spirobel[m]> s/to/that/
20:08:36 <Rucknium[m]> spirobel: Let me gather my thoughts
20:09:44 <nero-cultist[m]> How many of you all mine on the network or run a full node ? 
20:15:15 <sethsimmons> <nero-cultist[m]> "How many of you all mine on..." <- There are 12k nodes: https://monero.fail/map
20:15:33 <sethsimmons> 55k miners: https://miningpoolstats.stream/monero
20:15:39 <sethsimmons> Both are lower bounds, of course.
20:23:39 <nero-cultist[m]> Based 
20:23:42 <nero-cultist[m]> Except 
20:23:48 <nioc> all 3 of me do
20:23:56 <nero-cultist[m]> Why not 100k?
20:24:00 <nero-cultist[m]> Why not 300k?
20:24:21 <nioc> there is no denying reality although many try
20:24:29 <nero-cultist[m]> In going to start mining in devices that aren't really profitable for bragging reasons 
20:25:23 <lza_menace> 12k nodes that monero.fail knows of anyways
20:25:48 <crypto_grampy[m]> those are just 12k clearnet nodes, correct?
20:25:56 <lza_menace> speaking of which....i2p support inbound... anhdres working on your requests as well
20:26:04 <lza_menace> correct
20:26:05 <nioc> nodes with incoming connections
20:26:12 <lza_menace> also correct
20:26:19 <lza_menace> hi nioc
20:26:25 <nioc> meow
20:30:53 <spirobel[m]> s/the/they/
20:35:15 <anhdres[m]> <lza_menace> "speaking of which....i2p support..." <- like a boss
20:55:18 <lza_menace> anhdres i lost where the request was - do you recall? i remember sorting by age was one
20:57:32 <anhdres[m]> lza_menace: uups! I thought the same! lol
21:02:16 <anhdres[m]> yeah I think it was sorting by blockheight and having auto update
21:07:33 <carrington[m]> I2p support where?
21:08:54 <lza_menace> on monero.fail
21:24:50 <lza_menace> does anyone run a reachable i2p node i can use to test?
21:41:22 <Epsilon> one of the ones listed here https://github.com/i2p-zero/i2p-zero/blob/master/mipseed.md might work
21:42:36 <lza_menace> cool, thanks
21:42:39 <lza_menace> oh, i know those peeps!
22:14:09 <bridgerton[m]> <ian.niculescu> Do you think we will be able to scale on layer 1 in the future or will we need a second layer ?
22:37:49 <Orpheus[m]> Hi. Coming in from Matrix. Is there a Monero Space? 
23:19:08 <carrington[m]> <Orpheus[m]> "Hi. Coming in from Matrix. Is..." <- Yes
23:19:08 <carrington[m]>  https://matrix.to/#/#monerospace:monero.social