00:01:40 <louipcm> b0t: https://matrix.to/#/#xmrmine:matrix.org
00:18:59 <Torr> The XMPP room isn't bridged here, right?
03:05:48 <Torr> MUAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA
03:05:55 <Torr> IT THRIVES: https://digesttime.com/2021/11/28/chinese-ignore-government-restrictions-and-are-using-crypto-to-send-money-to-japan/
04:32:45 <louipcm> lol who they sending to
06:36:10 <dEBRUYNE> https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/r4jgrq/bounty_ethxmr_atomic_swaps_are_now_live_on/
06:36:17 <dEBRUYNE> Anyone from Monero Bounties that can clarify what is going on here?
07:11:02 <Inge> seems to me archeactive is dipping his toes in the Monero Community :D
07:27:47 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I will tell you what's going on here, I completed their bounty, I got evidence, they censored me, stolen the presentation of my code and the proof including the videos that WAS my idea, they added more requirements for the bounty to avoid giving it. And lastly after coding in the shadows for months thinking I could finally get an accomplishment in this community, they add more details to the bounty which apparently
07:27:47 <bridgerton[m]> they "discussed in their community" (r/monero mods claim that never happened officially) and despite people agreeing with me, they walk away with the bounty and nobody cares.
07:28:15 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> And this is the tip of the iceberg, just go look at the post all the evidence is there, nothing is hidden from my side.
07:30:46 <Halver[m]> <b0t[m]> "hello, are there any matrix..." <- #xmrmine:matrix.org
07:37:29 <plowsof[m]> This comment is poking a few holes in the solution e.g. its not trustless) https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/r4jgrq/bounty_ethxmr_atomic_swaps_are_now_live_on/hmi52kd/ 
07:44:02 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> They never told me they wanted it trustless too.
07:44:15 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I can make it if you guys want it, but I am not handing shit to your devs.
08:20:50 <rbrunner> With the danger of drawing your anger on me: "Atomic swaps" have to be, IMHO, trustless by definition. Or, in reverse, something that needs trust is not an atomic swap.
08:21:44 <kayabaNerve> https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/r4jgrq/bounty_ethxmr_atomic_swaps_are_now_live_on/hmid8ra/
08:21:55 <kayabaNerve> I left a reply I feel is extremely competent at answering this
08:22:11 <kayabaNerve> archeactiX: We can discuss this here if you want
08:22:44 <kayabaNerve> It summarizes as you have a critical fault making this non-atomic, not to mention several missing source files, no tests, and your repo is currently in violation of copyright law and an insult to the Monero developers
08:23:07 <kayabaNerve> I mean, technically that last part isn't relevant to claiming the bounty. I'm not sure we required you to follow the law when you submitted it...
08:23:25 <kayabaNerve> But it does go to show your Git repo has multiple issues and it shouldn't even be considered a submission at this time
08:23:53 <kayabaNerve> archeactiX: "They never told me they wanted it trustless too." This is the most bullshit comment I've ever seen in this field for the exact reason rbrunner described
08:24:54 <kayabaNerve> I'd recommend you read the BTC Wiki's article on atomic swaps in order to understand their fundamental nature.
08:28:13 <kayabaNerve> Also, you were obligated by the bounty to provide TX hashes. You were asked for these on Reddit and didn't provide any. 
08:36:28 <kayabaNerve> Finally, you claim this took you months and anyone who questions you should be ashamed for daring to challenge such a hard and devoted worker, yet you have like 800 lines of code here. That's not months of work.
08:36:54 <kayabaNerve> So it's really just you attempting to cause drama and emotionally manipulate the community because you're pissed your submission was rightfully rejected.
08:37:58 <kayabaNerve> If you do submit all the source files, as several are missing, and you do believe this protocol is atomic, and can provide the relevant tests to prove your work is atomic and secure, then I'll still advocate you get paid out. Right now, this is an incomplete project with an invalid protocol, and no proof for it, as I've previously stated, though.
08:49:25 <kayabaNerve> *Missing code probably does turn the total from 800 to, I'd assume, 1600-ish? Maybe 2k?
08:51:56 <kayabaNerve> ASMR, currently supporting 5 coins, is 6000. It's for 5 coins, AKA 1200 per coin, AKA 2400 for just two if it was a linear function (it's not but...). It took one month. Maybe this took you two? At most? I feel like your commentary of months suggest 3-6 but I guess with sufficient missing code it could be technically correct @ 2
08:52:50 <kayabaNerve> Or yes, you could just be a slower developer and this did take you months. I'm just cutting into your claims you're using to emotionally manipulate the community in order to extort money from the bounty arbitrators because... what was the reason... oh yeah. You're emotionally manipulating the community to avoid the cold hard facts 
08:58:32 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Trustless in what sense? What do you people mean by trustless? Like the development?
08:58:56 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> The development is trustless, and you can make the usage part trustless as well, this guy had no idea what he is on about, let me explain:
08:59:56 <kayabaNerve> archeatiX You can cheat as the XMR sender twice
09:00:05 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> The most significant problem seems to be that our code handles the interaction based on the UI, which they say is not "trust-less". The program is open source, which mean in a sense the UI can become everything you want, the UI presented in the demo isn't the final version, we just added something to make it look less like shit, that's it, the backend IS TRUSTLESS.
09:00:33 <kayabaNerve> You can either never create a TX sending to Alice, instead locking with H("") and revealing with "", and even if you do submit a valid XMR TX, there's a race condition
09:00:54 <kayabaNerve> No. You explicitly say the only reason Bob creates a valid TX to Alice is because the UI handles it.
09:01:08 <kayabaNerve> Fork the UI to be whatever you want, Bob is now not creaating valid TXs, Alice gets scammed
09:01:37 <kayabaNerve> If you protocol was trustless, Alice would be guaranteed to get the XMR. You both never confirm Alice has a chance of obtaining XMR AND have a race condition leaving it up to luck
09:02:07 <kayabaNerve> Except it's not up to luck. Whoever creates the TX will always be able to publish first. XMR node policy will keep the first seen no matter what. Because of that, Bob will always win the race
09:02:35 <kayabaNerve> So you have two critical issues and no solution. I already wrote up "What if Bob sends the XMR TX paying Alice to Alice in advance?" on Reddit. It doesn't work.
09:03:13 <kayabaNerve> Bob can either still scam Alice via the race condition or, if you have Alice wait to lock until after Bob's XMR TX to her, she can scam Bob of his XMR by never locking ETH
09:03:25 <kayabaNerve> And again, you're missing several files and don't have the necessary tests.
09:03:36 <kayabaNerve> You should at least fix your Git repo before we even continue this discussion
09:04:17 <kayabaNerve> > After Bob claims Alex's ETH, his timelock is still in effect, giving Alex the chance to claim Bob's XMR before he does.
09:04:23 <kayabaNerve> This is your fundamental misunderstanding.
09:04:29 <kayabaNerve> Neither party can claim until the timelock expires.
09:05:29 <kayabaNerve> So if Bob claims ETH with a valid XMR TX, Bob does have a chance at keeping the XMR by a race condition as both parties can submit valid TXs when the timelock expires. That's technically by internet speed/propagation routes, which I'd define as luck, and not actually based on any first mover advantage as I previously posited due to the mutual effects of the timelock, sorry.
09:06:11 <kayabaNerve> But there's absolutely no verification Bob claims the ETH with a valid XMR TX. None of your written designs cover that scenario. Bob can claim a TX hash of H(""), get ETH locked to that, and reveal with "". Then Alice has nothing.
09:06:30 <kayabaNerve> This is why the actually atomic protocol is such an involved process involving advanced cryptography.
09:06:51 <kayabaNerve> So if you do have a solution in code, and you just suck at writing your design, great. I'm personally willing to move past that.
09:07:06 <kayabaNerve> I'd just need to read your code and understand it for myself. You never submitted complete or even working code.
09:07:18 <kayabaNerve> It has 0 XMR files in the "backend" except the illegally hosted Monero EXEs.
09:07:36 <kayabaNerve> So you at least need to fix your Git repo, as I've noted a few times now.
09:16:08 <Inge> Monero Timelocks are not like bitcoin time locks.
09:24:13 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> They never included that in their bounty but you know what.
09:24:19 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I'm going to go ahead and do that cause you guys ask for it right now.
09:24:29 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Stay tuned.
09:26:32 <Inge> I'm not going to comment on the bounty itself - just that what everyone is looking for are real trustless atomic swaps \o/
09:28:30 <kayabaNerve> archeactiX: It's the definition of atomic.
09:28:34 <kayabaNerve> Literally the definition.
09:28:44 <kayabaNerve> A trustless way to exchange coins without a third party.
09:29:19 <kayabaNerve> If it was okay to have a protocol involving trust, I'd send you 100 XMR and expect you to send back 8 ETH and we'd call it a day.
09:29:30 <kayabaNerve> Which means your protocol is completely over engineered and worthless.
09:30:16 <kayabaNerve> You know it needs to be trustless because you designed something you marketed as atomic and trustless, mimicking actually atomic protocols, in an attempt to push your agenda. Whether this is ignorance or maliciousness, I couldn't comment.
09:30:34 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Literally the part of code that's not trustless is a 2 hours work dude.
09:30:42 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I was hurrying up to finish the bounty's requirements.
09:30:50 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Cause I knew you guys would pull this shit on me.
09:30:54 <kayabaNerve> I don't see any solution due to the problems I described on Reddit. If you can find one, feel free to.
09:31:09 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You will get your solution don't worry.
09:31:12 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> In hours.
09:31:13 <kayabaNerve> Except if noot had that same policy, that it was okay to submit invalid work, they would've claimed it weeks ago.
09:31:26 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Just know how to be more descriptive and let deceiving in your bounties from now on.
09:31:32 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Your noot submitted invalid work.
09:31:33 <kayabaNerve> So you're admitting your solution is invalid and you solely wanted to beat another party to the punch, regardless of merit.
09:31:36 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Stop lying.
09:31:51 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> My solution wasn't invalid, you turned it invalid and made an actual invalid solution valid.
09:31:54 <kayabaNerve> I'm not commenting on noot right now, except to say that they took a very different approach
09:31:58 <kayabaNerve> You never provided TXs
09:32:01 <kayabaNerve> TXs were a requirement
09:32:15 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> That's cause I have to go purchase ethereum right now again after my own tests.
09:32:20 <kayabaNerve> You hate noot for having Arbitrum TXs, which I'd argue is acceptable despite the technicality, when you never provided any
09:32:29 <kayabaNerve> Except you never provided any initially either
09:32:40 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> No it's not acceptable according to your own bounties, you said in main.net and main.net changes everything.
09:32:50 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> She provided a solution for test.net.
09:33:04 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I provided a solution according to what you asked for main.net then you added another requirement.
09:33:10 <kayabaNerve> So you're really just being a hypocrite for attacking noot on that premise. You're also admitting you submitted invalid work to spite another party and voided the intention of the bounty, which is first come, first serve.
09:33:14 <kayabaNerve> Arbitrum isn't a testnet
09:33:14 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> And the missing files are monero rpc connection, which is common sense in monero.
09:33:15 <kayabaNerve> At all
09:33:17 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You skipped past that too.
09:33:18 <kayabaNerve> It's a mainnet
09:33:20 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Yes it is.
09:33:24 <kayabaNerve> wat
09:33:30 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It's a second layered protocol, aka a test net.
09:33:34 <kayabaNerve> ...
09:34:11 <kayabaNerve> Okay, got it, you're either dedicated af to this bit because you really want money for your invalid work, or you truly are just incompetent and frustrated.
09:34:32 <kayabaNerve> Regardless, I'm discussing noot here to call you a hypocrite, not to pass judgement on their work.
09:34:56 <kayabaNerve> And if you want to claim your original submission is any form of valid (even though it needs more work), it'd still need TX hashes as you have so very well pointed out.
09:35:30 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> So far I can dictate four things about your whole agenda:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/37c64adcbf0b1f04964f62f850eb5a42dfd58070)
09:36:13 <kayabaNerve> So unless you can provide TX hashes dated to your original submission, I'd argue that's enough to void it and leave it to the arbitrators to decide if noot's code meets the criteria AND if Arbitrum, which is a mainnet and an ETH equivalent, which uses ETH, is a valid TX host. Else, the discussion would continue from there.
09:36:19 <kayabaNerve> I'm still eager to see your continued work.
09:36:34 <kayabaNerve> Also, no, it's not just a Monero RPC file. There's a lot of Monero TX handling required here, even with your design.
09:36:44 <kayabaNerve> Because if you do truly have a solution, it'd be incredibly impressive.
09:36:45 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You insist that arbitrum is main.net huh?
09:36:55 <kayabaNerve> But even if you solved the invalid XMR TX issue
09:36:56 <kayabaNerve> Even if
09:37:01 <kayabaNerve> You still have the XMR claim race condition
09:37:13 <kayabaNerve> It's unavoidable as long as Bob's private keys are in complete control of the funds.
09:37:32 <kayabaNerve> There's no way around it as you based your work on a misunderstanding of XMR timelocks. Alice is not able to claim before the timelock expires.
09:37:48 <kayabaNerve> Even if Alice has a valid TX to her, when the timelock expires, Bob can sign and publish his own spending TX in a race.
09:38:05 <kayabaNerve> Atomic swaps are not allowed to have such race conditions. It basically means Alice has a 50% chance of getting scammed.
09:38:19 <kayabaNerve> Atomic swaps guarantee a lack of funds loss if the protocol is observed.
09:38:27 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> 
09:38:27 <bridgerton[m]> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/621366094531133461/914812540415000607/unknown.png
09:38:36 <kayabaNerve> A 50% chance of losing funds, even if you observe the protocol, is not a guarantee.
09:38:45 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> According to the official ethereum it's not main.net yet.
09:39:01 <kayabaNerve> You have no idea what a mainnet is
09:39:02 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> If you think that just cause it works on arbririum it works on main.net too what can I say, you're ignorant.
09:39:08 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Let's get to the rest of what you're asking now.
09:39:08 <kayabaNerve> A mainnet is not required to be a standalone netwrok
09:39:28 <kayabaNerve> A mainnet just means it's code ready for use in production. A layer 1 is a standalone network.
09:39:30 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Yes it does for cross chain applications.
09:39:33 <kayabaNerve> Arbitrum is not a L1. It is a L2.
09:39:37 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It's a totally different interconnection.
09:39:39 <kayabaNerve> It is a mainnet.
09:39:56 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> No it's not it's a test version of a potential main.net
09:40:01 <kayabaNerve> No. It's not
09:40:12 <kayabaNerve> Arbitrum has explicitly stated they will not release their own token and will remain on ETH
09:40:20 <kayabaNerve> The current discussion is about it becoming an ETH 2.0 shard eventully
09:40:38 <kayabaNerve> Regardless, this is not a XMR discussion, nor does it change what you need to work on, nor does it change anything about my position
09:40:41 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Again, it's not officially accepted as main'net and it doesn't operate as main'net.
09:40:44 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Is that so hard to understand?
09:40:47 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> No it doesn't.
09:40:58 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It's my bad I didn't assume you guys would want a full exchanger.
09:41:06 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> If you had specified in the bounty this wouldn't had happened.
09:41:14 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> But claiming what noot made it's a main'net subscription it's a bs.
09:41:14 <kayabaNerve> I didn't write the bounty. I'm telling you its requirements you've failed to meet. I'm not responsible for paying it out. I have never lied or deleted comments.
09:41:20 <kayabaNerve> The bounty clearly says it's for atomic swaps.
09:41:41 <kayabaNerve> You did not write an atomic protocol, and therefore your implementation does not implement atomic swaps. It's that simple.
09:42:15 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I did not write a trustless* atomic protocol.
09:42:23 <kayabaNerve> No one accepted noot's work, so you can't claim the arbitrators contradicted themselves regarding the network. 
09:42:25 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> The function is exactly the same it misses one automation.
09:42:28 <kayabaNerve> Atomic protocols are tustless.
09:42:35 <kayabaNerve> They're trustless by nature.
09:42:50 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You sure about that right?
09:42:51 <kayabaNerve> You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the definition of atomic and of how Monero timelocks work.
09:42:54 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> About that claim right there.
09:42:59 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> That atomic protocols are trustless by nature.
09:43:02 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> All the time.
09:43:05 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> 100%?
09:43:06 <kayabaNerve> Atomic protocols are guaranteed to execute.
09:43:10 <kayabaNerve> Yours is not.
09:43:18 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Nah answer the question.
09:43:25 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I will give you one that guarantees it for free dude.
09:43:37 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It just annoys me how you're ignorant and you insist on this cause you got caught lying.
09:43:38 <kayabaNerve> Yes. Because atomic protocols are guaranteed to execute, they can be considered trustless
09:43:45 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Uhhh.
09:43:48 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Listen.
09:43:53 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Nothing is guaranteed to execute all the time.
09:44:01 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It's literally impossible with cross chain technology.
09:44:09 <kayabaNerve> The conditions for execution are funds equivalent to what was put in.
09:44:12 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You can only add an escrow-system / automation to make it 0.00000000001% possibility not to.
09:44:18 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Which again, is different.
09:44:19 <kayabaNerve> You aren't guaranteed to receive the other set of funds.
09:44:25 <kayabaNerve> You're guaranteed to receive a set of funds.,
09:44:28 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You are if you do everything right.
09:44:34 <kayabaNerve> Your protocol does not guarantee that.
09:44:35 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I even described a solution to the protocol.
09:44:46 <kayabaNerve> No, no, the other party can walk away and you won't receive their funds. You're right in that sense.
09:44:55 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> My idea was for the users to decide on a timeframe, then at that point, the monero-seller's timelock would automatically be added a certain timespan to ensure their timelock would be longer than the eth-seller's.
09:44:57 <kayabaNerve> But you'd be guaranteed to receive your funds back in that case.
09:45:09 <kayabaNerve> That doesn't prevent the inevitable race condition.
09:45:17 <kayabaNerve> Nor does it prevent the ETH from being invalidly claimed.
09:45:44 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Uhhhh.
09:45:45 <kayabaNerve> If Alice locks ETH to whatever Bob specifies, Bob can claim it without a valid XMR TX. It's that simple.
09:45:50 <kayabaNerve> The lock times have nothing to do with it.
09:45:55 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> If I provide you with the TX's today will you admit you are wrong?
09:46:05 <kayabaNerve> You'd need Alice to verify the XMR TX in advance, which isn't possible.
09:46:26 <kayabaNerve> No, no, your swap protocol works as well as me sending you for 8 ETH and asking for 100 XMR back is.
09:46:34 <kayabaNerve> You can provide "successful" swap TXs.
09:46:56 <kayabaNerve> What you can't provide is successful TXs to reclaim funds upon issue, no matter what the counterparty submits.
09:47:13 <kayabaNerve> > test cases for failure cases (unit and integration tests)
09:47:18 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Again, how are you going to pull that thing when both parties must agree on a price for the transaction (swap) to happen.
09:47:21 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Explain.
09:47:23 <kayabaNerve> It's one of the requirements. You need tests verifying your code handles failure cases.
09:47:32 <kayabaNerve> Which means you must support all failure casees.
09:47:42 <kayabaNerve> The prices mutually agreed upon aren't relevant.
09:47:56 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Explain how so.
09:47:59 <kayabaNerve> Your protocol is no more secure then me sending you ETH and asking for XMR, at which point you can walk away.
09:48:21 <kayabaNerve> ... because the code for 5 XMR for 5 ETH is the same as 5 XMR for 10 ETH?
09:48:29 <kayabaNerve> Execution paths don't differ based on USD value of the funds?
09:48:51 <kayabaNerve> They're integers used as variables and those integers are valid as long as they meet requirements?
09:49:01 <kayabaNerve> So price is an irrelevant discussion.
09:49:37 <kayabaNerve> Right now, you have Bob provide a TX hash. There's no proof that maps to a proper TX. Alice is supposed to lock their ETH to it. Bob can claim the ETH in that case. Alice does not have XMR.
09:49:46 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Invalidly claiming ETH is meant to be prevented by keeping the metadata from the non-relayed monero transaction a secret from the xmr-seller.
09:49:52 <kayabaNerve> Extending the XMR time lock does not benefit Alice. The ETH was already claimed and there's still no XMR TX.
09:50:10 <kayabaNerve> So Bob is the one selling the XMR and creating the TX.
09:50:23 <kayabaNerve> Alice would need the full TX in advance in order to verify Bob's hash is accurate.
09:50:38 <kayabaNerve> The problem is, that means revealing the full TX in advance, meaning Alice can simply claim the XMR.
09:51:08 <kayabaNerve> *Assuming Alice now locks ETH after being shown the XMR TX. If she continues to lock ETH before, Bob can ignore Alice and simply claim with ""
09:51:32 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I disagree with you completely and you don't seem to understand, but due to how you're a privacy fanatic from the looks of it, I am going to solve that issue and upload it for MAIN NET not a LAYER PROTOCOL.
09:51:53 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> But don't claim you achieved the first atomic swaps when they are in test.net
09:52:03 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Also don't censor me.
09:52:05 <kayabaNerve> If you can provide test cases proving your code handles all failure rates discussed, I won't have an issue.
09:52:19 <kayabaNerve> I never censored you. I literally have 0 powers over any XMR group.
09:52:29 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Alright, so you want an automation of the monero rpc node, (the missing files you mentioned is that actually) and the trustless part done.
09:52:39 <kayabaNerve> Unless you mean my Reddit-given ability to downvote people trolling and spreading misinformation.
09:52:55 <kayabaNerve> Atomic swaps are actually agnostic btw
09:52:56 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> No I do not mind that if it's done against the right people.
09:53:03 <kayabaNerve> They don't care if they're done on a testnet or a mainnet
09:53:04 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> But your friends aren't the right people, they lied a lot.
09:53:09 <kayabaNerve> The network byte is the same either way
09:53:17 <kayabaNerve> *The network byte is the only thing different
09:53:18 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Yes but people do cause we can't connect it to liquidity if it's not in main'net
09:53:22 <kayabaNerve> Sorry, it's very late and I'm a bit tired
09:53:24 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It can be turned into an exchanger.
09:53:37 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I don't mind I thought you were the mod who censored me and pissed me off.
09:53:37 <kayabaNerve> An atomic swap is defined as a technologicial, guaranteed exchange of custody.
09:53:40 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It's cool.
09:53:58 <kayabaNerve> I executed a guaranteed exchange of custody (or as noted previously, a return of funds upon counterparty failure).
09:54:19 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> So let me get this straight you're not part of the bounty site.
09:54:19 <kayabaNerve> Therefore, regardless of your caring of how much value was exchanged (none), the protocol was completed aand that would make me first.
09:54:21 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You sure about that?
09:54:28 <kayabaNerve> I have the ability to comment there
09:54:31 <kayabaNerve> I signed up for an account
09:54:36 <kayabaNerve> I don't have any privileges though
09:54:39 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Again, are you with their circle jerk yes or no.
09:54:43 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Answer me this.
09:54:50 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Or you just stumbled upon this.
09:55:02 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I got a good reason for asking you.
09:55:10 <kayabaNerve> Even if you solve the XMR TX problem though, and manage to ensure Bob provides a valid TX to Alice, you didn't solve the race condition
09:55:27 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I can solve these conditions.
09:55:28 <kayabaNerve> Whenever that XMR unlocks, Bob can claim it no matter what Alice does. It just becomes a race for propagation
09:55:30 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Everything you name.
09:55:36 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> But I won't hand them to you if you are one of them.
09:55:39 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Anyways just list them.
09:55:52 <kayabaNerve> Would be great to see. I don't believe so. I ask noot's submission be visited now that yours has been self-declared invalid at this time.
09:56:17 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Self-declared invalid cause you don't like the GUI?
09:56:24 <kayabaNerve> You declared it invalid lol
09:56:31 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> When?
09:56:34 <kayabaNerve> You admitted you submitted it hours before finishing in an attempt to snipe it
09:57:33 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Still, your claim that my application isn't trustless bothers me. The people that will exchange crypto in XCAS, whether with my design or noot's, won't they have to meet online somewhere and negotiate terms like rate and timeframe? Doesn't that mean both applications are trust-ful? That objection of yours sounds simply unreasonable.
09:57:36 <kayabaNerve> I am a Monero community member. I love decentralized exchange technology, specifically atomic swaps, and have tried to keep up to date with the tech which I'm intimately familiar with. I came here, to talk to you, because you started a ton of drama based on attacking XMR peeps for not paying out over an invalid submission (and some of their misc comments which I generally don't care to comment on, and even acknowledged one as out of 
09:57:36 <kayabaNerve> scope)
09:58:03 <kayabaNerve> I'm not a mod on any Monero groups though. I'm not here to blindly follow other people either
09:58:14 <kayabaNerve> There's no trust in negotiating terms. At all.
09:58:25 <kayabaNerve> It's literally just a self declaration until mutual agreement.
09:58:37 <kayabaNerve> When the time comes to execute, the protocol guarantees both parties remained honest.
09:58:41 <kayabaNerve> That's why it's trustless.
09:59:02 <kayabaNerve> While yes, you may not obtain the other party's funds, you're guaranteed to receive one set of funds.
09:59:40 <kayabaNerve> Which is why it's considered an atomic swap. Either it's an effective NOP (technically a waste of time and fees, yet you keep your principal) OR it's a guaranteed exchange.
10:00:40 <kayabaNerve> The fact you didn't even read the BTC wiki for the basic definition and wrote something not meaningfully better than blindly sending ETH and politely asking for XMR is on you, whbich is why I believe noot's submission is next in line and any further work on your end be considered a new submission, especially after you admitted to premature submission in an attempt to snipe someone else when the bounty was meant to reward whoever was 
10:00:40 <kayabaNerve> legitimately first
10:00:50 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> So you are saying for example.
10:01:02 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> A person claims he wants 2 ethereum for 1 monero (example)
10:01:06 <kayabaNerve> But I also have 0 confidence you can actually 'fix' this protocol. It'd require a direct change to the XMR timelock system and a ZK proof I don't even care to dream of.
10:01:10 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You want people being unable to send less/ more / or none
10:01:15 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> But still send them to each other?
10:01:23 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> This is what you mean? Like a safety escrow system?
10:01:30 <kayabaNerve> dude
10:01:33 <kayabaNerve> please just read the wiki
10:01:42 <kayabaNerve> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Atomic_swap
10:02:16 <kayabaNerve> It covers the basic principles of atomic swaps, which provide a decentralized and trustless escrow without a third party
10:02:21 <kayabaNerve> Which is why they're called atomic swaps
10:02:22 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I read the wiki what I don't understand is what you recommend as a solution for the rates.
10:02:33 <kayabaNerve> It is the responsibility of each party to verify the counterparty's TX in its entirety
10:03:06 <kayabaNerve> So if I lock X, and you lock Y, I am able to verify your amount. If you send less, I cancel. If I send less, you cancel. We each guarantee our own safety.
10:03:48 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> This is literally how it is right now, what's your problem?
10:03:55 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Is this miscommunication or an actual backend issue?
10:04:10 <kayabaNerve> https://github.com/MerosCrypto/asmr/blob/master/src/coins/xmr/verifier.rs#L83-L137 for reference
10:04:36 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> That code literally operates the same as mine with a different steps in the UI.
10:04:43 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Is this your problem?
10:04:46 <kayabaNerve> Alice has no way of ensuring Bob actually submitted a hash of a TX which sends the amount to Alice
10:04:48 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> What's allowed in the UI?
10:05:05 <kayabaNerve> Alice only has a way of ensuring Bob has the funds in the first place, yet they're in his wallet, and he offers no proof he will send to her
10:05:31 <kayabaNerve> He just tells Alice to lock to an arbitrary hash which he is able to then claim, regardless of if the data hashed is what Alice needs to not lose funds
10:06:06 <kayabaNerve> And even if it is a valid TX to Alice for the proper amount, and even if you can manage to have Alice verify that before putting the ETH at risk while still not putting the XMR at risk, there's a race condition when Bob claims the XMR.
10:06:11 <kayabaNerve> *Alice claims the XMR
10:06:27 <kayabaNerve> Bob has the private key for the input in question and can create an alternate TX sending the funds to himself.
10:06:58 <kayabaNerve> Monero won't recognize either TX until the locktime expires. Whenever it does, Alice and Bob would (theoretically ideally), submit at the same time, causing a race with 50% odds to either side.
10:07:13 <kayabaNerve> Alice only having a0% odds of not losing their principal is not an atomic protocol.
10:08:03 <kayabaNerve> So you have two critical flaws in your backend. One requires some ZK proof that Bob's specified hash actually maps to a properly signed Monero TX, which again, I don't care to dream of. The other is the ability for Bob to craft a competing TX and the ensuing race condition when the XMR timelock expires.
10:08:51 <kayabaNerve> Your protocol design has Alice claim XMR < timelock, and has Bob claim > timelock on failure. What you don't realize is, or at least what your protocol doesn't take into account is, the fact Alice can't spend the XMR < timelock
10:09:01 <kayabaNerve> Both parties must do it < timelock, causing the race condition
10:09:21 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I understand what you mean now but still they never asked me to solve this issue.
10:09:25 <kayabaNerve> They did
10:09:29 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> But you got a point.
10:09:29 <kayabaNerve> They said implement atomic swaps
10:09:31 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> No they didn't.
10:09:34 <kayabaNerve> Your protocol isn't atomic
10:09:42 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> But it is an atomic swap, the technology is the same.
10:09:45 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> How is it not atomic.
10:09:46 <kayabaNerve> Atomic swaps offer a guarantee you won't lose your principal
10:09:47 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Pfffff.
10:10:04 <kayabaNerve> You copied some atomic swap technology but you didn't copy its guarantees
10:10:06 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Without using advanced cryptography, this is probably the only way to do atomic swaps. I agree that it doesn't rely on cryptography as much as other implementations, but that doesn't mean it is any less trustless and decentralized.
10:10:13 <kayabaNerve> That's the thing
10:10:16 <kayabaNerve> This isn't atomioc
10:10:21 <kayabaNerve> So this isn't a way to do atomic swaps
10:10:26 <kayabaNerve> They do require advanced cryptography
10:10:32 <kayabaNerve> There's 3 WPs about it
10:10:42 <kayabaNerve> And 3 working implementations
10:10:50 <kayabaNerve> It is definitely less trustless
10:11:32 <kayabaNerve> Alice never has a guarantee they'll receive the needed XMR TX. Alice never has a guarantee Bob won't publish a competing TX, as they can only publish at the same time which means equal opportunity, meaning a 50% chance of Bob getting both sets of funds
10:12:06 <kayabaNerve> If you did manage to solve those two problems, the first with advanced cryptography, the second with a XMR HF to change timelock behavior for atomic swaps, then sure, this would be trustless and therefore an atomic swap
10:12:32 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I can make it trustless with another way.
10:12:38 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Hold up right here you piqued my interest.
10:12:40 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Wait.
10:12:50 <kayabaNerve> I have no idea how you'd put that cryptography together. It sounds like hell. It's why the atomic swap author went with the standing WP on DLEq proofs and the other standing WP on adaptor signatures
10:13:20 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I been working on the bitcoin protocol applied on tor's network with my buddy.
10:13:22 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I can do it.
10:13:32 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> If only you asked me to nicely instead of coming at my throat like this.
10:13:43 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> We could avoid all this shitshow.
10:13:44 <kayabaNerve> If you legitimately want to solve this, great. I'll give feedback as I can. I was being harsh for all the drama and attacks you put out there. I'm still pissed at you but I would be very interested if you had a solution
10:13:55 <kayabaNerve> So while I have 0 faith, again, still willing to discuss this as I have
10:14:44 <kayabaNerve> And if noot's submission is invalid according to the arbitrators, and you submit an updated submission which works, with tests for all failure cases and is atomic, I'd back you on it. The bounty isn't for noot or for a derivation of his software
10:15:06 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It's not my fault you guys censored me then you stole my idea in the projects presentation, then on top of that you started adding more requirements and degrading my work cause it's not textbook (like you do right here) the only issue I agree on is that I didn't include the monero rpc automation funny fact is that I literally got a working miner for this which makes this even dumber. Now about the "trustless" part.
10:15:10 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Hold right there.
10:15:34 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Noot stole my presentation.
10:16:08 <kayabaNerve> Though I do maintain Arbitrum is a mainnet not loooking at its own token or leaving its status as an ETH orbiter (L2 for ETH1, shard for ETH2 IIRC). If that is enough of an issue to invalidate noot's submission, I'd be happy to fund them and ask if they can produce mainnet TXs with their software (solely changing network bytes as needed), their submission be accepted, regardless of if any others are queued
10:16:10 <kayabaNerve> But it's not up to me
10:16:25 <kayabaNerve> I didn't write the bounty. I'm not in control of it. I'm literally just voicing my opinion
10:16:43 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I don't know what you mean by "publish at the same time". First Bob publishes his self-tx, locking the funds in place and delivers the hashed-metadata to Alice. The key images of the inputs used are recorded so Bob cannot use them in another transaction - therefore he cannot double-spend or cheat Alice by using the funds in another transaction.
10:16:44 <kayabaNerve> K, you admitted you submitted incomplete work in an attempt to ensure you got the bounty
10:16:56 <kayabaNerve> noot's had publicly available incomplete work for months and has watched this bounty for weeks
10:17:04 <kayabaNerve> You absolutely cannot claim noot is a thief here
10:17:11 <kayabaNerve> K
10:17:18 <kayabaNerve> So lets say Alice does know the key images
10:17:26 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I never admitted such thing I was fully convinced this is what you want and the bounty was secondary in terms of value, I am mad with how you favor people over how much you like them instead of focusing on the code.
10:17:46 <kayabaNerve> You had invalid code for multiple reasons. AFAIK, noot's is valid.
10:17:50 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Noot is a thief, she saw my submission and waited for 5 hours before publish hers.
10:18:03 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> And followed the same proof of work I described, something she never mentioned ANYWHERE before.
10:18:05 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> That's thieving.
10:18:07 <kayabaNerve> I haven't personally reviewed it. They use a valid protocol though and I know someone who worked on it who I trust.
10:18:26 <kayabaNerve> Not if their submission is complete. That's just another submission.
10:18:26 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> That's a personal claim which confirms you're literally a circle jerk.
10:18:35 <kayabaNerve> XMR nodes will only know the key images once the TX is broadcast to the network, right?
10:18:46 <kayabaNerve> Even if you tell Alice the key images in advance, the network doesn't care.
10:18:56 <kayabaNerve> They only care when a valid XMR TX is published.
10:19:07 <kayabaNerve> Lets say, yes, Bob reveals a valid XMR TX to Alice over the ETH SC.
10:19:26 <kayabaNerve> And the XMR locktime expires 10 minutes later.
10:19:34 <kayabaNerve> When those 10 minutes expire, that's when the key image is usable.
10:19:48 <kayabaNerve> Bob has the private key. He can sign an infinite amount of transactions.
10:19:49 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> That's just the existing code, it's not an absolute fact.
10:20:05 <kayabaNerve> And whichever hits the blockchain first is will be accepted as fact
10:20:19 <kayabaNerve> So Bob just needs to send his TX to the top miners before Alice's propagates
10:20:31 <kayabaNerve> That's why it's a race condition, one a malicious party can get great odds on
10:20:46 <kayabaNerve> Changing the XMR protocol for alternate behavior will delay your submission by at least 4 months
10:21:07 <kayabaNerve> I wouldn't dismiss the nature of XMR timelocks saying they can be changed if you want to claim this bounty
10:21:21 <kayabaNerve> And the agenda for the next HF should be pretty set, meaning you'd probably need to wait 16 months
10:21:39 <kayabaNerve> Plenty of time for me to update my own work with a new folder.
10:21:46 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> "It either uses advanced cryptography, or it doesn't count".
10:21:49 <kayabaNerve> No
10:21:51 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> This is basically you.
10:22:01 <kayabaNerve> It's either atomic, which requires being trustless, or it doesn't count
10:22:22 <kayabaNerve> It's not my fault if the only trustless ways to ensure you get your principal, either back or in the desired form, require advanced cryptography
10:22:30 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> So hold up.
10:22:33 <kayabaNerve> That's life. It's hard. You can either beat it or accept it beat you.
10:22:36 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> If I make this trustless you will shut up?
10:23:15 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Idc about the bounty I care about you guys shutting up at this point btw, is the reason I even got involved i dislike your authoritarianism.
10:23:17 <kayabaNerve> That would make it atomic. I've already said if you do implement atomic swaps, I don't care how as long as they're atomic and you test for the various failures. Not only to ensure your protocol design handles them, but also that your code does.
10:23:53 <kayabaNerve> Fun. I got called authoritarian for voicing my opinion in a community about a topic I have experience with when I've literally used 0 powers against you except a voice which every human here has.
10:25:04 <kayabaNerve> Which means if you allow submitting random hashes to Alice to lock their funds to, on the premise it's for a valid XMR TX to Alice, you need to actually write a malicious counterparty which does send H(""), reveals "", claiming the ETH, and either have Alice get their ETH back or claim the XMR
10:25:15 <kayabaNerve> Despite the ETH having moved and not having a XMR TX or any keys
10:25:17 <kayabaNerve> gl hf
10:25:19 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Gathering your butt buddies and cherry picking my code based on semantics is what authoritarians do with propaganda.
10:25:23 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Plus censoring and lying.
10:25:33 <kayabaNerve> Someone already solved this though if you just want to use their work
10:25:34 <kayabaNerve> I recommend it
10:25:35 <kayabaNerve> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/h4sh3d/xmr-btc-atomic-swap/master/whitepaper/xmr-btc.pdf
10:25:38 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Again noot stole my presentation, observed me completing it first, you still supported her, and it's not on main net.
10:25:52 <kayabaNerve> Your code literally doesn't run. It's absolutely not atomic. 
10:26:00 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Nah sorry I am not like your friends stealing others work to claim glory.
10:26:02 <kayabaNerve> So yes, I will speak out against it with the truth.
10:26:17 <kayabaNerve> noot used none of your work and wrote their own post, including TX hashes, which you included none of.
10:26:23 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You speak against it with lies not truth. The atomic part is just the steps on the UI, it has nothing to do with the backend.
10:26:36 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> And again, IT RUNS IF YOU connect it with RPC MONERO.
10:26:42 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> What's so hard to understand?
10:26:53 <kayabaNerve> If I can write a UI to be malicious, and you lose funds because your backend doesn't check it, that's the backend's fault
10:26:54 <kayabaNerve> Not mine
10:27:24 <kayabaNerve> https://github.com/Archeactive/XMR-ETH-Atomic-Swaps-/blob/main/src/index.js#L8
10:27:29 <kayabaNerve> This file doesn't exist on your Git at all
10:27:39 <kayabaNerve> You have 0 files under monero/ except illegally hosted EXEs
10:27:54 <kayabaNerve> Your comment that I just have to connect it to the RPC is telling me I just have to write the entire XMR side of the integration
10:28:02 <kayabaNerve> That's your job.
10:28:04 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> No it's not.
10:28:13 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It's the false usage of UI's fault.
10:28:18 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Which you're asking me to fix here.
10:28:28 <kayabaNerve> You literally have 0 code talking to the Monero RPC on your GH
10:28:38 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Ilegally hosted exes what the fuck are you on about.
10:28:40 <kayabaNerve> No matter what buttons I click on your UI, that won't fix itself
10:29:03 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Dude, you can automate this with any type of software out there.
10:29:06 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Uh hold up.
10:29:08 <kayabaNerve> Monero uses the BSD-3 clause license which requires all copies of the source code and all generated binaries to be hosted with the appropriate copyright statement
10:29:20 <kayabaNerve> You did not provide a copy of the relevant LICENSE file
10:29:26 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> https://github.com/Archeactive/Monero-Full-Node
10:29:39 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Is that easy.
10:30:11 <kayabaNerve> Dude. Check your swap repo.
10:30:16 <kayabaNerve> It never connects to the Monero RPC.
10:30:20 <kayabaNerve> None of the JSX files even try to.
10:30:30 <kayabaNerve> You uploaded stuff you didn't mean to.
10:30:42 <kayabaNerve> One of your files imports Swapper.jsx which doesn't exist anywhere in your repository
10:30:46 <kayabaNerve> You're missing several files.
10:31:04 <kayabaNerve> Check your GH. Realize you only uploaded some of what you meant to. Fix it before you tell me it's one click.
10:31:15 <kayabaNerve> https://github.com/Archeactive/Monero-Full-Node/blob/main/monero-v0.17.2.3/LICENSE
10:31:20 <kayabaNerve> See? This has the LICENSE file
10:32:18 <kayabaNerve> Your protocol has two critical exploits. Alice never verifies the XMR TX, and they would have to before they lock ETH to its hash, but if they receive the XMR TX before the lock they can publish it while never locking ETH.
10:32:37 <kayabaNerve> Or you need "advanced cryptography" to set up an infinitely cursed ZK proof offering such a guarantee.
10:32:47 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You actually use vote manipulation in reddit meanwhile claiming a test.net code is main.net code I just noticed holy shit.
10:32:54 <kayabaNerve> Then your usage of XMR timelock's, and lack of a 2-2 multisig causes a race condition.
10:33:01 <kayabaNerve> It's not vote manipulation to down vote.
10:33:04 <kayabaNerve> That's just voting.
10:33:04 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> The alice problem is UI.
10:33:07 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Is that so hard to understand?
10:33:23 <kayabaNerve> K. What is the UI supposed to do if it never has the information to show?
10:33:23 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It's vote manipulation when accounts that haven't been active for 2 years go ahead and say for noot's development "sweet work queen haha"
10:33:26 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Like your latest post.
10:33:27 <UXP[m]> > <@pydev56:matrix.org> What is the best exchange to buy monero? 
10:33:27 <UXP[m]> > I am thinking of using Bisq.
10:33:27 <UXP[m]> Hi, did you use Bisq? How was your experience?
10:33:35 <kayabaNerve> Manipulation would be asking people to vote or using alts.
10:33:36 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Bisq sucks.
10:33:37 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Anyways.
10:33:42 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It is alts dude.
10:33:45 <kayabaNerve> I haven't used any alts or asked people.
10:33:59 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You are using upvote services the accounts never been in the monero community and they commend you for your test.net efforts.
10:34:06 <kayabaNerve> K. I haven't used any. Maybe someone else has. I wouldn't know. Maybe you're just mad people who read the comments realize your work is invalid.
10:34:07 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> All your comments received 20 upvotes in 30 minutes.
10:34:21 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Thing statistically impossible cause the main post has 80 in 6 hours.
10:34:21 <kayabaNerve> Lol. I've never used any upvote services.
10:34:25 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Which means you definitely used upvote manipulation.
10:34:25 <kayabaNerve> Yeah. I posted it in places
10:34:32 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Well someone used it for you then.
10:34:36 <kayabaNerve> I posted it here on IRC, because it was a succinct response to your bs
10:34:38 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I assume the owners of noot's development.
10:34:41 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It doesn't make sense.
10:34:48 <kayabaNerve> I posted it in two Monero channels as we discussed your work in two channels
10:34:49 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Unless 22 people kept refreshing the page continously.
10:34:53 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Anyways...
10:34:53 <kayabaNerve> I also posted it on the bounty thread
10:35:02 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I agree with you that I should had included the monero rpc connection.
10:35:10 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> And that the UI must be so people can't scam each other.
10:35:14 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Everything else is sheer lies.
10:35:22 <kayabaNerve> There's probably just a mix of people reading the bounty, reading IRC, reading Matrix, reading Discord, and reading Reddit. As they read my posts and upvote it, they downvote yours.
10:35:35 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Yeah yeah claims, the facts present that you guys did upvote manipulation.
10:35:36 <kayabaNerve> The race condition isn't a lie.
10:35:38 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Period.
10:35:46 <kayabaNerve> Lol. You're just jealous and resorting to ad hominem
10:35:48 <kayabaNerve> Cope
10:35:55 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You probably are part of their team who want to feel like the gods of monero.
10:35:57 <kayabaNerve> Anyways. You still have a race condition
10:36:05 <kayabaNerve> I actually don't have a single PR or commit to XMR.
10:36:06 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I am like 99% certain you're salty my protocol might be better than yours.
10:36:17 <kayabaNerve> Oh. It would be if it worked
10:36:19 <kayabaNerve> It's much better
10:36:19 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> And you cherrypick human error while giving it the name "ur code's fault".
10:36:22 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Bs.
10:36:34 <kayabaNerve> Not that I ever wrote a protocol. I just found h4sh3d's work and beat him to impl'ing it :p
10:36:44 <kayabaNerve> No, no, I identified it was a mistake
10:36:46 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I bet you right now 100 usd in XMR, if i got to a channel their entire team of propagandizers is gathered you are there.
10:36:52 <kayabaNerve> But I also pointed out it stopped verifying your work
10:37:05 <kayabaNerve> ... like the publicly known #monero-community channel we're in?
10:37:18 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Yeah like you guys don't do dm's.
10:37:26 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You think everyone is a fool don't ya.
10:37:33 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Monero was made for cynical skeptical people dude.
10:37:41 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Why do you think so many people call you out in all this?
10:37:58 <kayabaNerve> I have one friend from Monero I DM with occassionally. We don't discuss Monero often though tbh
10:37:59 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Your arguments appeal to my inability to provide something that minimizes human error.
10:38:02 <kayabaNerve> I have my own work and he has his.
10:38:10 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> My arguments appeal to your inability to be honest.
10:38:32 <kayabaNerve> Anyways. Fix the fact Alice has no guarantee they're sent a hash of a valid XMR TX. Fix the race condition with claiming XMR. Don't introduce other security issues.
10:38:38 <kayabaNerve> I've been perfectly honest with you.
10:39:13 <kayabaNerve> If you do those things, you'll have implemented an atomic swap protocol potentially superior to the only one currently around (ignoring variations of it). I'd love to see it. I have 0 faith
10:40:19 <kayabaNerve> And I'd be happy to support your work accordingly. Until then, I personlly think noot's code should be reviewed. If they want to reach out to me for ETH for an ETH mainnet swap, I'd be happy to fund it. That said, I believe they have stepped back thanks to your toxicity so not only have you done nothing for XMR yet, you've actively driven those who are. Real shame.
10:40:53 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> There is 1 critical problem with this design as it stands. The ETH-holder needs a way to inspect the XMR-holder's lock on his monero. They must verify the locked funds belong to him and read how much time they are locked for.
10:40:53 <kayabaNerve> I'm heading off. It's almost 5am. Feel free to DM any questions about Bob's XMR TX to Alice or the XMR race condition. I'm also on Element and Discord.
10:41:03 <kayabaNerve> No, no, that's the easy part.
10:41:24 <kayabaNerve> The XMR holder just needs to create a new view key for that specific TX and mutually share the view key.
10:41:31 <kayabaNerve> Then Alice can independently find, and verify, the TX.
10:41:42 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> That can also be forged.
10:41:48 <kayabaNerve> The problem is that TX is still Bob's. Bob can do whatever he wants with it, including 100 potential spenders.
10:41:51 <kayabaNerve> Nope
10:42:11 <kayabaNerve> If it's on the XMR blockchain, it's a valid TX. The reported amount can be forged, sure, but rebuilding the commitment verifies it's correct.
10:42:18 <kayabaNerve> You do your job, you won't have a problem.
10:42:23 <kayabaNerve> You just have to do your job.
10:42:43 <kayabaNerve> Or you can trust the XMR Wallet RPC to verify the commitment after importing the view key. You do have it available.
10:43:04 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I know what I got to do, the issue is how even what you recommend doesn't make it completely trustless.
10:43:16 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Which means that there's no actual available source for trustless XMR - swaps as it is.
10:43:20 <kayabaNerve> So Bob currently offers no guarantee the hash he sends to Alice is for a signed XMR TX to Alice for the proper amount. I won't repeat myself again on why you can't send it in advance for verification
10:43:29 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Rebuilding commitment isn't enough.
10:43:34 <kayabaNerve> No, no. I've pointed out the issues with your protocol. I never recommended using it
10:43:44 <kayabaNerve> What I recommended is using the atomic swap protocol already defined
10:44:07 <kayabaNerve> But if you do want to use your protocol, you need to fix these two issues without introducing further security issues
10:44:16 <kayabaNerve> And I don't believe the second one is fixable without a HF 
10:44:30 <kayabaNerve> Or, of course, moving to a 2-2 multisig on the XMR side so both sides must agree on where the funds go
10:44:48 <kayabaNerve> But Bob can still be a dick and screw over Alice unless the 2-2 multisig ends up entirely in Alice's possession
10:44:53 <kayabaNerve> Which is why you need adaptor signatures
10:45:00 <kayabaNerve> Yet ETH uses a different curve :O
10:45:16 <kayabaNerve> If only someone had a proof to say two public keys had the same private key across curves...
10:45:47 <kayabaNerve> Again, if you can do automatic swaps without that crypto, good for you, I'd love to see it. This ain't it though, chief. I also still don't have faith :p
10:46:15 <kayabaNerve> But yeah, actually heading off now. Best of luck, don't be toxic, feel free to DM me on IRC/Matrix/Discord if you want advice
11:00:20 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I don't get what makes you think Bob can construct the transaction to claim the XMR after he claims the ETH. That's what the timelock is for. And the timelock is in place due to the self-tx. If via view key, Alice can verify that, then she just needs to claim the monero before the timelock expires for Bob. I don't think I'm wrong in saying that.
11:07:41 <kayabaNerve> archeactiX: She can't claim it before the timelock expires.
11:07:52 <kayabaNerve> The timelock applies to anyone who tries to spend it. Not just Bob.
11:08:08 <kayabaNerve> It would've required specifying two keys to do it your way. One which can spend before the timelock, one after.
11:08:43 <kayabaNerve> That said, the output Bob sends is solely to his own key, with the idea he'll further build on it with a TX to Alice or a refund to himself.
11:09:15 <kayabaNerve> So how would the timelock, which only applies to the input, know which to approve and which not to?
11:09:29 <kayabaNerve> When it's the next TXs outputs that are at stake, and Monero doesn't support a two-key timelock system?
11:09:37 <kayabaNerve> That's why I said it'd require a HF.
11:10:02 <kayabaNerve> And yes, I am trying to head off, turns out I just had to walk my dog and suck at doing so :p
11:10:05 <kayabaNerve> Again, best of luck
11:10:39 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I don't think there is a race condition problem (my design doesn't produce one). That leaves a guarantee for the ETH-holder that the hash the XMR-holder sent her is legitimate. My idea about that, as I mentioned, was to establish a (P2P) connection between the 2 users' programs and then automatically send the correct hash to her without the XMR-holder's acknowledgement - therefore preventing him from deceiving the
11:10:39 <bridgerton[m]> ETH-holder.
11:22:57 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> If you had actually done *any* transaction, you would've seen the XMR timelock doesn't let Alice claim before it expires, giving Bob the opportunity to submit his refund and enter a race condition.
11:22:58 <bridgerton[m]> Bob can easily fork his client to not send a correct hash. Saying your OSS system is secure because no one will edit a single line of code is an absolute joke and proof this isn't trustless and therefore not atomic. Alice MUST confirm the hash herself somehow, instead of trusting Bob to know how to edit a text file.
11:23:23 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I did a transaction using common sense and nothing like that showed up, I didn't account the fact that someone could actually be clever and use this to scam.
11:23:27 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You are right it's not trustless.
11:23:33 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> So either your code is broken because it's submitting Alice after the time lock, not before, or you haven't actually don't any TX.
11:23:34 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Cause it's easily exploitable.
11:23:39 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> Exactly
11:23:42 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> No the code is fine the GUI is the issue.
11:23:50 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It's not limited properly for race conditions.
11:23:56 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I didn't account the scamming part.
11:23:58 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I admit that.
11:24:17 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> The hash isn't verified. The race condition exists due to the protocol rules about XMR time locks.
11:25:02 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> That's why I've been so frustrated. The whole idea about atomic swaps is they're trustless. You specify, or agree to, a price and it guarantees your principal back or the other funds in return.
11:25:04 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It can be solved easily.
11:25:22 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You guys should had told me instead of going lynching mode, I missed it as a detail.
11:25:25 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It wasn't done on purpose.
11:25:32 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> I've been trying to tell you from the start
11:25:37 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Like who the fuck would even try to scam in the monero space it's dumb.
11:25:38 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> I explained this in my very first Reddit comment
11:25:48 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> No you explained it now your first reddit comment was a direct attack.
11:25:59 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> Don't know, sounds pretty easy, and you only need private internet money to do it?
11:26:13 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> Lol. I literally explained both of these vulnerabilities
11:26:29 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> And I have been trying to since
11:26:40 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Okay name them both.
11:26:49 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I will show you what I mean.
11:27:27 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> Like sure,I haven't been friendly, but I've done my best to cut through the bs and I don't care to be friendly right now
11:27:47 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> I hope so but don't believe so. One requires an incredibly screwed up ZK proof OR trusting no one to ever edit two lines in a text file.
11:28:02 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> One requires a HF or a 2-2
11:28:22 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> The idea with the 2-2 being adaptor signatures so one party ends up with 2 and one party solely keeps one share
11:28:59 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> But then you're implementing the existing, verified protocol, or forking an instance of it
11:33:57 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> Again, if you have a solution, it'll probably be better than the current protocol and I'd love to hear it. For now, I'd like to stop this BS on Reddit where you're claiming you deserve the bounty for your standing submission/did the first atomic swaps when you've acknowledged they have critical vulns on the protocol level, therefore aren't atomic, yet for some reason a bunch of people are mad at the arbitrators and the
11:33:57 <bridgerton[m]> frequent contributors when the arbs haven't even rejected your submission. All that's happened is community discussion. The exact same discussion that led to the acknowledgement, and hopeful progress on, these issues.
11:35:14 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> If you do want to implement the existing protocol, or something like it, I have a DLEq library in rust you may be able to bind to. Itd handle most of the crypto.
11:36:41 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> After I realized what you mean cause you dropped the manipulation tactics I concluded that nobody deserves the bounty.
11:37:00 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> But still that doesn't forgive how your friends treated this and the censorship or ill willed trolling.
11:37:11 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Neither it does how your dev stole my presentation strategy.
11:37:35 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> If one of you had messaged me nicely when I firstly asked instead of deleting my comments and calling me a karen, this could be avoided, or even pass you the code just by admitting I helped.
11:37:57 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You started this.
11:38:24 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Now knowing all this I don't think I deserve the bounty either when it has such a huge vulnerability scammers can use.
11:38:27 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> But neither your dev does.
11:38:36 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Noot stole my presentation and made a test net.
11:38:43 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> It's not theft to make their own submission with even more information when they have a work they considered completed
11:39:39 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> That's gaslighting right there and dishonest.
11:40:03 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> It'd be gas lighting to say you stole their submission. I'm not saying that
11:40:05 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> The honest would had been "hey archeactive I finished it" on top of that your friends stalled the recognition of the code till she could complete it.
11:40:17 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Lol.
11:40:21 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You stole MY submission.
11:40:31 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You literally wanted people to fork your own project so you could keep the whole glory.
11:40:40 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> This is why all this happened.
11:40:59 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> I did say you have little ground to stand on though when you admitted you on purposely submitted incomplete work early to cut out noot who may finish their code before you
11:41:04 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> Which they supposedly have
11:41:06 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Your friends came at me which radicalized me cause I told them "what if I find a better solution with my own code".
11:41:12 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> I never suggested you use my own swap project
11:41:13 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> And one of them called me a troll karen and the other deleted my comments.
11:41:17 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> That's what happened.
11:41:20 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Your friends did that.
11:41:26 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> I did suggest you use a cryptographic lib I wrote
11:41:27 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> And you ask me to stand by.
11:41:28 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> That's a distinct thing
11:41:53 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It's a distinct thing but you defend their inexcusable actions and lies.
11:42:25 <bridgerton[m]> <Kayaba> If you want to blame everything on me when I'm the one still trying to help, and I came hours after the fact, pointed out the issues, and tried talking it through. That's on you. I'm truly done spamming this chat with this though. Grow up man
11:43:39 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I don't blame you I call you out for what you attempt to hide, giving condescending advice to degrade my efforts and ignoring that the ones you bandwagon are in the wrong deletes any type of positive self proclaimed intention you may have.
11:43:56 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> And don't tell me to grow up when you do projects on test.net while your own criteria is on main net and you claim you "achieved the first swap".
12:09:16 <dEBRUYNE> r/monero mods claim that never happened officially <= Can you elaborate?
12:11:44 <spirobel[m]> dEBRUYNE I hope archeactiX is banned and his drama posts on reddit get deleted. The eth-xmr swaps are simply too important for the monero ecosystem for someone to spread so much toxicity here. I hope moot comes back and continues to work on this. It would be a shame if she got demotivated by this. We should make sure that it is clear that her contributions are valued by community.  
12:12:52 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Yes ban archeactive, silence his voice, put him in his place show authoritarianism, censor harder, put more people off monero.
12:13:02 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> A perfect solution huh? This is what lead us to this point btw, this mindset.
12:13:07 <spirobel[m]> s/moot/noot/
12:13:27 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> And majority of people agreed with me according to the post and the reaction to the bounty.
12:13:37 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Sorry but your boss attitude is in the minority here.
12:15:08 <plowsof[m]> kayabaNerve: thank you btw !
12:16:17 <dEBRUYNE> 'This is the original comment that was deleted by monero bounties'
12:16:34 <dEBRUYNE> Could have been that the comment was deleted by the author instead of the moderators?
12:17:00 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> No, they deleted my comments too and the comments of crypto grumpy and another person as well.
12:17:05 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> They deleted 3 comments in total.
12:17:19 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Noot was actually receiving of it and said "sure good luck" but then they tried to censor everything.
12:17:33 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Deleting her own comment as well or maybe she did it- that I don't know.
12:17:44 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> But I got proof they deleted three peoples comments.
12:17:45 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Which lead up to this.
12:18:09 <bridgerton[m]> s/<archeactiX> Noot was actually receiving of it and said "sure good luck" but then they tried to censor everything./<archeactiX> Noot was actually receiving of the idea and said "sure good luck" but then they tried to censor everything./
12:21:24 <dEBRUYNE> OK, I suppose I can inquire regarding this later with the moderators of the bounty site
12:21:56 <plowsof[m]> There was a comment deleted from the bounties site after atleast 1 complaint was made. But it was unrelated to whats happening now , i dont have the exact comment but it was along the lines of bullying the dev.  
12:22:13 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Lol, that's a lie.
12:22:24 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I am going to pull all the screenshots, cause apparently you're not arguing using facts.
12:22:38 <dEBRUYNE> In any case, the bounty is supposed to be for an atomic XMR<->ETH swap, and atomic swaps are inherently trustless
12:28:37 <sech1> I don't have time to read walls of text here and reddit, one question: does the code actually work and implement atomic swaps?
12:29:03 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Yes but it can be used to scam.
12:29:03 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Cause it doesn't stop one of the two parties from being dishonest.
12:29:07 <kayabaNerve> sech1: No for two different critical security exploits in the design
12:29:07 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> The process is atomic swap but it can be manipulated.
12:29:17 <sech1> so not an atomic swap
12:29:18 <kayabaNerve> ... so no but this dude is very persistent
12:29:19 <sech1> case closed
12:29:26 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Btw.
12:29:30 <kayabaNerve> And the code is missing files, not tested, etc.
12:29:33 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I found the solution to what you ask.
12:29:46 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> The code isn't MISSING FILES IT JUST NEEDS MONERO RPC CONNECTION.
12:29:52 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Like EVERY WALLET OUT THERE.
12:29:58 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I told you this so many times.
12:30:03 <sech1> "atomic" swap that requires trust is no better that using an exchange
12:30:18 <kayabaNerve> sech1: An exchange can be subpoenaed :p
12:30:20 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Again I found the solution for that.
12:30:27 <kayabaNerve> Not Kayaba over Tor? Who knows?
12:30:43 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You said a timer right.
12:30:51 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> The race condition.
12:31:04 <kayabaNerve> The race condition isn't solvable without a XMR HF or a 2-2 multisig.
12:31:09 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I believe that I found the solution to that proper synchronization.
12:31:14 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I am discussing it right now with the other guy.
12:31:21 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> No it is.
12:31:21 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You're wrong.
12:31:27 <spirobel[m]> kayabaNerve: look at the commit history as well. seems like he is just copying stuff into the github web interface. what a clown.
12:31:31 <kayabaNerve> I'll pay money if there is a working solution.
12:31:36 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Lol what?
12:31:43 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Copying what? @spirobel
12:31:49 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Wtf?
12:31:56 <kayabaNerve> spirobel[m]: I did that when I started development. It just makes him new to things if true. I thought I saw a single commit message for all of it though
12:32:00 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Okay hear me out so.
12:32:20 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> The biggest problem here is the monero locking up yeah?
12:32:30 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> And how the tx can end up getting manipulated by the one who makes the offer.
12:32:40 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> So we require a timer that stops that which you refer to in atomic swaps as race condition.
12:32:43 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> My question is.
12:32:48 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> What if we add another one?
12:33:06 <kayabaNerve> The problem is you can't cause a bidrectional path.
12:33:10 <kayabaNerve> BTC has this exact issue.
12:33:13 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> No not path.
12:33:18 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Recognizer.
12:33:22 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> There's no need for path.
12:33:28 <kayabaNerve> Its solution is to use an OP_IF to decide which key/side of the time lock to use.
12:33:43 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Yes but what if it is possible to make that decision - impossible to be deceitful.
12:33:46 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Impossible to be scammy.
12:33:50 <kayabaNerve> XMR doesn't have OP_IF available because it doesn't have Script enabled (I've heard it's technically in the codebase but I've also never seen it)
12:33:50 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I thought of something.
12:33:59 <spirobel[m]> kayabaNerve: so we have a choice now: either we continue to entertain this clown and his toxic behaviour or we further alienate someone who has actual skills. This commit history looks a lot more trustworthy than the garbage archeactiX produced: https://github.com/noot/atomic-swap/commits/master
12:34:04 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> There's no need for OP if.
12:34:06 <kayabaNerve> So if you set a timelock, it's applied to everyone. Because of that, adding more does nothing.
12:34:19 <kayabaNerve> spirobel[m]: I'm trying to get in contact with noot
12:34:22 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> No it doesn't have to apply to everyone, you don't get it.
12:34:25 <kayabaNerve> Seriously. Know where I can find them?
12:34:29 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> The time lock doesn't affect the main code.
12:34:32 <kayabaNerve> They're not on IRC or Matrix AFAICT
12:35:01 <kayabaNerve> How would it not apply to everyone? XMR timelocks prevent spending on the protocol level based on it
12:35:11 <spirobel[m]> kayabaNerve: I know you mean well. but please stop engaging with this guy. It is a waste of time. He just needs to be banned for his shitty behavior. 
12:35:15 <mj-xmr[m]> My monthly report:
12:35:15 <mj-xmr[m]> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/r4sqhv/mjs_dev_report_nov_2021/
12:35:15 <mj-xmr[m]> Cheers!
12:35:27 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Cause it's not the crypto timelock that matters, is the decision making of the users.
12:35:41 <kayabaNerve> Absolutely fair. I walked away earlier and popped back in when sech asked. I suck at walking away :(
12:35:59 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Your favorited dev didn't even make anything in main net.
12:36:05 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It's unusuable.
12:36:22 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Either way because of your bitching I actually found the solution so the community will get an actual atomic swap now.
12:36:27 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> 👋
12:36:40 <kayabaNerve> spirobel[m]: I do still want to verify noot's work. I trust it simply because leder had a hand in it, but obviously that isn't proper review :p
12:37:03 <Rucknium[m]> kayabaNerve: I believe noot's Reddit username is elizabethereum. You could try there.
12:37:30 <spirobel[m]> kayabaNerve: she is also on twitter.
12:38:22 <kayabaNerve> Thanks
12:39:28 <sethsimmons> bridgerton[m]: If you have the solutions as you say, please stop spamming every platform with toxicity, code it up, publish it, and prove it on main net.
12:45:11 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I didn't spam anything I made one post in reddit, and I responded twice in the site, I am here to discuss the solution politely.
12:45:14 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You guys are the toxic ones.
12:46:54 <sethsimmons> Politely is an interesting way to put it lol
12:46:56 <spirobel[m]> <kayabaNerve> "spirobel: I did that when I..." <- red flag. I certainly wouldn't execute any of the binaries he has included. I wouldn't even download them. super sketchy. I think his behavior is way over the line and shouldn't be tolerated. He is either an amateur for not using git while working or he is copying code from who know where. And he has the audacity to slander the actual professionals in the monero reddit. He should be
12:46:56 <spirobel[m]> banned and his posts removed as soon as possible
12:47:23 <spirobel[m]> s/know/knows/
12:47:50 <sethsimmons> Your approach from square one has been intentionally vague, toxic, and aggressive, even down to your intentional avoiding of your username here (you uses "bullshit sighted" on Bounties).
12:48:51 <kayabaNerve> Oh. I definitely agree at this point. There's been 0 rational attempt to move forward in a cooperative manner and I was blamed for his radicalization to being an asshole lol. Pretty sure he's just an ass
12:50:08 <sethsimmons> kayabaNerve: Very much so.
12:50:08 <sethsimmons> He's welcome to proof his professed talent with commits and main net proofs, until then there's no reason to out up with toxic spam.
12:50:19 <sethsimmons> s/uses/used/
12:50:31 <sethsimmons> * Very much so.
12:50:31 <sethsimmons> He's welcome to prove his professed talent with commits and main net proofs, until then there's no reason to out up with toxic spam.
12:50:33 <kayabaNerve> I'd be fine with testnet proofs. That's the reason they exist lol
12:50:37 <sethsimmons> * Very much so.
12:50:37 <sethsimmons> He's welcome to prove his professed talent with commits and main net proofs, until then there's no reason to put up with toxic spam.
12:52:35 <sethsimmons> kayabaNerve: I say main net only because he's been 
12:52:42 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Test net doesn't work as a proof, test net is the experimental phase of the experimental phase - of the other experimental phase
12:52:58 <sethsimmons> * I say main net only because he's been complaining about test net being insufficient from day one.
12:53:12 <kayabaNerve> Fair enough
12:53:17 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Straight to the propaganda we go huh? Your lies and bs didn't work on reddit so you try them here.
12:53:22 <sethsimmons> bridgerton[m]: There it is 😅
12:53:26 <kayabaNerve> Does anyone know who's actually in control of the Monero Bounties?
12:53:36 <kayabaNerve> Because I do understand this was a non-CCS endeavor
12:53:40 <kayabaNerve> Or is it a secret?
12:55:06 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It's true, if you code you will see that something can appear perfect on a test net and absolutely horrid in the main net.
12:55:18 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I literally didn't even assume with my code that "bob" might try to scam alice.
12:55:23 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It didn't cross my mind.
12:55:28 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> And look what happened.
12:55:42 <sethsimmons> kayabaNerve: I'm one of the admins/moderators.
12:56:38 <numro6[m]> is there a matrix space that gather all monero (and/or haveno) rooms?
12:56:45 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Ahhh so you are the one who censored me and started all this.
12:56:45 <kayabaNerve> Oh. Good to know. Thanks. I have some commentary I was going to check if it'd be appropriate to post my own commentary on Noot's work on the thread or if I should place it in some channel
12:57:39 <dEBRUYNE> kayabaNerve: A separate thread on Reddit would probably be appreciated
12:57:41 <kayabaNerve> That sentence is 2 in 1 0_o Regardless, I can post it there on someplace like #monero-dev and figured I'd check what the site's runners prefer
12:57:48 <sethsimmons> numro6[m]: Yes, will send momentarily.
12:57:48 <kayabaNerve> dEBRUYNE: It's for a technical discussion
12:57:51 <dEBRUYNE> i.e. a thread with the reviews of both implementations 
12:58:19 <kayabaNerve> I'm not convinced noot meetss the criteria either at this time, despite being almost there, due to testing
12:58:44 <sethsimmons> If it needs discussion, #monero-research-lounge:monero.social is probably the best place.
12:58:52 <sethsimmons> Or potentially #monero-research-lab:matrix.org 
12:58:54 <kayabaNerve> Eh. That could be interesting? I've already posted replies on standing threads, I believe 1 or 2 to socks, and honestly not sure I care to go back
12:59:00 <sethsimmons> *real-time discussion.
12:59:18 <sethsimmons> numro6[m]: https://matrix.to/#/#monerospace:monero.social
12:59:21 <kayabaNerve> I wouldn't mind trying to get the other eyes who would've verified this regardless of me to chime in
13:00:05 <sethsimmons> Feel free to post on Reddit and then share in those rooms for live discussion.
13:00:25 <utxobr[m]> > <@mj-xmr:matrix.org> My monthly report:
13:00:25 <utxobr[m]> > https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/r4sqhv/mjs_dev_report_nov_2021/
13:00:25 <utxobr[m]> > Cheers!
13:00:25 <utxobr[m]> as always, great stuff, mj! thank you!
13:01:44 <mj-xmr[m]> utxobr[m]: Tryin'a do things differently :)
13:02:34 <numro6[m]> sethsimmons: thanks! 👍️ it lacks some rooms we can find by browsing *:monero.social, is it expected? Like, those room are not official
13:04:07 <kayabaNerve> sethsimmons: Missed that final comment, sorry. That may have been best.
13:04:31 <kayabaNerve> Alrighty, I'll move over to Reddit and link it
13:05:02 <sethsimmons> numro6[m]: Yes, isn't exhaustive, just the core/most common rooms. I have to manage it alone ATM so I don't add any room I come across -- it's just a landing zone for new people 🙂
13:05:19 <sethsimmons> kayabaNerve: Good for Reddit to see it as well, but either way is fine by me 🙂
13:05:45 <kayabaNerve> Well now I'm just getting mixed messages when I don't care if Reddit sees it after all of this :(
13:05:59 <kayabaNerve> But fine, I'll trust you :p Be back in ~30 minutes, I guess
13:06:37 <sethsimmons> Just saying no pressure from me for Reddit post.
13:06:47 <sethsimmons> Matrix is better for technical discussions, usually.
13:14:51 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Must be feeling sad how you can't censor me in reddit too, taking the entire thing to another social app. Phew.
13:15:10 <sethsimmons> You're in Matrix, bud.
13:16:14 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Not really, I am in discord.
13:16:18 <sethsimmons> I removed an intentionally toxic attack and the surrounding comments, to the thanks of several 3rd parties and the person you were attacking without evidence and in an intentionally vague manner.
13:16:18 <sethsimmons> The removal was warranted and appreciated by everyone else involved.
13:16:40 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It didn't seem so appreciated to me in the public eyes, maybe you appreciated it.
13:16:42 <sethsimmons> bridgerton[m]: It's called a bridge, you can use the surveillance platform if you want but thanks to the bridge you get access to Matrix.
13:16:44 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Do you appreciate it still btw.
13:16:54 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> The censoring.
13:17:02 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I mean look where it got us.
13:17:19 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Do you find your decision to censor me instead of maturely discussing with me my errors wise?
13:17:46 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I think we could had avoided this drama and shit show with a simple conversation, but nooooo you have to be in the badass authoritarian cyber master.
13:17:51 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Reap what you sow.
13:18:02 <sethsimmons> I don't have time to interact with every troll in every platform, sorry. Other's tried (and continued to try) having reasonable discussions with you and you have persisted in toxicity and vapid claims.
13:18:02 <bridgerton[m]> s/in//
13:18:19 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Idk about the troll part, so far the majority agrees you are the trolls and you are in the wrong.
13:18:30 <sethsimmons> The simple conversation was had, and you doubled down. I have no regrets on removing your intentionally toxic messages.
13:18:48 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It doesn't matter if you do cause now people know what you are about and disagree with it.
13:18:48 <sethsimmons> bridgerton[m]: Idk who you're talking about, here, no one has been upset by the cleanup.
13:18:53 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> What you regret or don't doesn't matter.
13:19:02 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Here in your circle jerk you mean.
13:19:07 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> In reddit many do.
13:19:28 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Dozens upon dozens of people, cause what you do goes against the principle of liberty, which is what crypto was depended on.
13:19:49 <sethsimmons> As I said before, you talk a big talk so feel free to actually code up a working implementation along with tests and proofs on main net and feel free to claim the bounty.
13:19:57 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> If you had told me "you don't have to be so rude, no this, yes that" we could avoid this, so the real motive wasn't my "toxicity".
13:20:01 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> The real motive was your agenda.
13:20:15 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> >Claim the bounty
13:20:26 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> So you admit that noot didn't complete the bounty. Alright, we're getting somewhere.
13:20:32 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> So if I complete the bounty you will apologize to me?
13:21:10 <midipoet> > test net is the experimental phase of the experimental phase - of the other experimental phase << that is a bit like a line from a Dr Suess book
13:21:14 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Cause frankly speaking, this is what I am most concerned about.
13:21:31 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Thanks, I like my speech skill too, it's 100 no codes.
15:01:11 <nioc> finally there is scrollback that there is no need to read
15:06:29 <shillo> nioc: this is one of the few times I read scrollback and thought it was worth reading :D
15:08:02 <sethsimmons> <nioc> "finally there is scrollback that..." <- I take a break from Matrix/IRC for a weekend and this is what I get 😢
15:16:55 <shillo> the matrix-irc bridging of monero-pools is broken btw. One way only. IRC gets matrix users messages but matrix does not get irc messages. This happens with every matrix account except for one matrix user who can see irc
15:31:05 <midipoet> and that user is Neo
15:34:02 <sethsimmons> <shillo> "the matrix-irc bridging of..." <- Who on the Matrix side has admin there?
15:34:06 <sethsimmons> I'm not even in that room.
15:37:49 <shillo> no idea
15:38:24 <shillo> I don't use matrix anymore and likey won't touch it again
15:38:33 <shillo> likely*
16:53:52 <numro6[m]> <sethsimmons> "Who on the Matrix side has admin..." <- actually, the strange thing is that there has to be an admin. If the room is hosted on libera.chat the matrix support is managed by the libera.chat team, no need to configure bridge per room
17:50:11 <selsta> nioc: I tried to read scrollback but no idea what the topic even is
17:51:13 <nioc> selsta: 1 of the 3 eth/xmr atomic swaps
17:51:18 <nioc> no need to look
17:51:24 <nioc> we need you :D
17:51:37 <selsta> too many messages lol
17:52:42 <sethsimmons> Not worth your time.
17:53:00 <sethsimmons> Just a long-time anti-Monero troll leveraging ETH<>XMR atomic swap bounty to sow discord.
17:53:59 <Save_G[m]> Who was in the right now? 
17:55:21 <sethsimmons> What?
17:56:27 <Save_G[m]> Idk just read the post that there was some xmr bounty drama on they carried it over to the r/btc reddit lmao 
17:56:59 <Save_G[m]> s/on/and/
17:58:03 <sethsimmons> Yup, they tried to spread it everywhere they could because of some past beef.
17:59:51 <Save_G[m]> Massive psychological operation by the glowies to cause drama in the xmr  community 🧐
18:00:36 <nioc> yawn
18:03:46 <shillo> can confirm. Am glowie
18:32:19 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Love your propaganda tactics btw guys, they are some of the best shit I ever seen.
18:32:41 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> So professional.
18:45:52 <sethsimmons> Not sure what you're referring to.
18:46:29 <sethsimmons> You chose to slander and attack everyone who dared converse with you, and then presented an incomplete and lacking "protocol" for "atomic swaps" that fails to even consider the adversarial environment ASs are designed to work in.
18:46:32 <floam412[m]> Gotta say, there is quite a bit more of drama than usual in the Monero space lol…
18:46:38 <sethsimmons> No one is spreading propaganda.
18:47:03 <sethsimmons> Social attacks require very little investment or effort, so they will be persistent.
18:47:30 <sethsimmons> It's an easy way for those who want to destroy or discredit Monero and it's community to cause issues, but it's not the end of the world and is being dealt with 🙂
18:49:20 <sethsimmons> The core issue is that people often believe whatever they read first, and so an empty attack like this one manages to pull the wool over a few peoples eyes each time. But anyone who takes 15m and digs into it will easily see that it's just a bad attempt at causing havoc by someone with a history of this type of thing.
18:49:34 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Your propaganda is one of the best I ever seen, political and clever answers manipulating people using sheer authority.
18:49:50 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You should change careers tbh, monero scammer doesn't fit you become a politician.
18:49:52 <sethsimmons> What propaganda?
18:49:55 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I would vote if i saw you in TV.
18:50:18 <sethsimmons> bridgerton[m]: LOL a scammer that earns 0XMR from his scams.
18:50:23 <sethsimmons> I'm an awful scammer, if true.
18:51:03 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Damn so you lie to people for free?
18:51:05 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> So kind.
18:51:25 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Okay I am sold you can censor me all ya want daddy.
18:51:36 <monero-guides[m]> bridgerton[m]: from everything i've read in the last 30 mins, i have come to the conclusion that you have no self respect.
18:51:47 <sethsimmons> I have not lied to anyone in this entire situation.
18:51:53 <sethsimmons> I have been exceedingly transparent and forthcoming.
18:51:54 <crypto_grampy[m]> How much do you get paid for this?
18:52:02 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> True you only altered events to fit your agenda.
18:52:17 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Or like presented them in a manipulative fashion.
18:52:24 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Fearsome skills tbh.
18:52:27 <sethsimmons> You are attempting to use a freely-run platform for bounties to your own ill-gain against the Monero community due to some previous perceived slight you won't mentioned.
18:52:43 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Idgaf about the bounty.
18:52:45 <sethsimmons> s/mentioned/mention in detail/
18:52:46 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Trust.
18:52:47 <Save_G[m]> Taking the bait
18:52:59 <sethsimmons> bridgerton[m]: What events did I alter?
18:53:09 <crypto_grampy[m]> i'm looking forward to using archeactix's funding platform
18:53:20 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Well besides everything so far, nothing really.
18:53:41 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Idk how you managed to have 20 people lying at the same time to push your agenda in every platform yet you still failed btw.
18:53:49 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I think you need more creativity.
18:53:57 <jwinterm[m]> Wow, such community
18:54:09 <sethsimmons> bridgerton[m]: You really have a way of using a lot of words to say nothing of value.
18:54:10 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Like you could had said "lol you didn't even make the swaps trustless and you want the bounty?"
18:54:12 <sethsimmons> It's impressive.
18:54:13 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Appeal to my greed and shit.
18:54:18 <monero-guides[m]> it's pretty embarrassing when mods go tit for tat at least. 
18:54:33 <sethsimmons> bridgerton[m]: Have you considered the fact that maybe you're the only one who is in the wrong here?
18:54:33 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Look look man. I will be utterly honest.
18:54:41 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I am not a troll. Neither I am against monero.
18:54:46 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I just dislike you and your bullshit.
18:54:50 <sethsimmons> And that if literally every respectable member of the community opposes your view of events, maybe it's you and not us?
18:55:00 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I use monero every day actually.
18:55:07 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Like literally everyday.
18:55:08 <monero-guides[m]> seth, quit it!
18:55:13 <crypto_grampy[m]> monero is for everyone (tm)
18:55:14 <sethsimmons> bridgerton[m]: Multiple others said that, I didn't have to.
18:55:25 <sethsimmons> monero-guides[m]: I have no mod powers in Discord.
18:55:44 <crypto_grampy[m]> archeactiX, have you heard of Wownero?
18:55:46 <sethsimmons> crypto_grampy[m]: I'm glad it is, even for archeactiX 🙂
18:55:54 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> But you gues centralizing the bounties, the funding, and manipulating people reminds me of joe biden claiming he will get rid of the bigotry of trump then enforcing communism so.
18:55:54 <monero-guides[m]> sethsimmons: you have control over the enter key!
18:55:56 <bridgerton[m]> s/gues/guYS/
18:56:05 <bridgerton[m]> s/gues/guys/
18:56:07 <sethsimmons> Even he deserves access to privacy-preserving digital cash.
18:56:09 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Sorry bro but i got to come at you.
18:56:35 <sethsimmons> monero-guides[m]: True 🙂
18:56:38 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I plan to complete the bounty properly, not to get the bounty just to embarrass you and hopefully make people understand you guys are shitty people.
18:56:41 <Rucknium[m]> monero-guides: A complication is that Seth For Privacy  is an admin for Monero Bounties, which is basically being criticized by archeactiX, so he feels he has to defend that platform.
18:56:52 <sethsimmons> I've said more then enough, have a good one archeactiX.
18:56:55 <crypto_grampy[m]> monero-guides[m]: ahem, we're draining the US federal defense budget every minute this guy is occupied
18:57:03 <sethsimmons> Time to get back to useful efforts.
18:57:16 <spirobel[m]> Rucknium[m]: he does not. We should just ban this guy. 
18:57:25 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> What do you guys plan to do once I actually provide the best atomic swaps possible btw.
18:57:26 <spirobel[m]> * does not need to. We
18:57:27 <sech1> I checked the github repo in question. Embarassing to say the least
18:57:41 <sech1> It is NOT atomic swaps
18:57:43 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You won't be able to play your manipulation cards then.
18:57:46 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> So what's the plan?
18:58:23 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Cause I am planning to record an entire video of such sexy atomic swaps.
18:58:29 <crypto_grampy[m]> you should create a bounty platform and get funding
18:58:36 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> And just hand it to the community with no bounty or funding.
18:58:40 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> No money at all.
18:58:46 <sethsimmons> sech1: He proved in discussion he neither knows what an atomic swap is, or how it's meant to work to prevent harm due to malice or DoS attempts.
18:58:48 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> No financial gain, nothing.
18:58:51 <crypto_grampy[m]> no one's forcing you to participate in the Monero Bounties platform
18:59:03 <jonah_xd[m]> Its drama monday ?
18:59:12 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Yeah but soon I will prove your platform is practically a ponzee scheme.
18:59:17 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Cause it is btw.
18:59:22 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> What do you plan to do then?
18:59:23 <jonah_xd[m]> Gl
18:59:29 <crypto_grampy[m]> lol
18:59:31 <sech1> "Alex then relays the prepared monero transaction, claiming Bob's XMR, while Bob's timelock is still in effect."
18:59:34 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Buy more upvotes and make more "awesome atomic swap comments"
18:59:46 <sech1> that's not even possible because outputs are already spent and are in the timelock :D
19:00:04 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> >Already spent
19:00:06 <jonah_xd[m]> And this why i hate reddit
19:00:09 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Says who.
19:00:13 <sethsimmons> jonah_xd[m]: It's "Seth took the weekend off so stir up some drama while he's gone" Monday XD
19:00:13 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You?
19:00:17 <sethsimmons> Been fun to come back to, as always
19:00:18 <sech1> Says Monero daemon
19:00:23 <sech1> did you even try to do this?
19:00:36 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Hey seth if I lie to people claiming you're a privacy maximalist and not a scammer who made a shitty site and got donations for it.
19:00:36 <sech1> once you send timelocked transaction, these outputs are spent
19:00:40 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Will you stop censoring me bro?
19:00:40 <sech1> and you can't send them again
19:00:59 <sech1> You don't even know how Monero works
19:01:03 <sethsimmons> jonah_xd[m]: Yeah...
19:01:06 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Show me where I said that in the protocol, that the timelocked transaction is sent.
19:01:17 <jonah_xd[m]> I use seth tor entrance node daily
19:01:20 <sech1> "Bob relays a self-transaction with the same inputs."
19:01:26 <sech1> same inputs ^^^
19:01:40 <sech1> you can't send two transactions with the same inputs, timelocked or not
19:02:06 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Same inputs being the right ones, I admit my word usage was shitty I can't deliver propaganda as good as you guys.
19:02:12 <sech1> you can prepare two transactions, but once the first one is broadcasted, it's game over for the other one
19:02:25 <floam412[m]> bridgerton[m]: There’s a difference between ‘censorship’ and everyone reacting poorly to you acting like an ass
19:02:59 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> But I actually used the code and didn't get scammed, however I am not willing to pay 300 usd more (cause ethereum fees) just to prove you wrong when you will still avoid being honest.
19:03:06 <sech1> everything about you is shitty, not only word usage. Your code is shitty, your attitude is even shittier
19:03:23 <sech1> and your protocol doesn't work
19:03:26 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> So I will just fix that part and post the code for free btw.
19:03:27 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Just to embarrass you.
19:03:28 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Cause you are assholes.
19:03:35 <sech1> have a nice day too
19:03:47 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> And frankly speaking you are in this for the money, I am a crazy asshole in this for the tech.
19:03:59 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You're fundamentally bad for the community.
19:04:04 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> your techs shit though
19:04:12 <crypto_grampy[m]> Reminds me of one of the old timers on 3rd floor that used to smear shit all over the walls of his room every weekend and yell at the nursing home staff for not doing a good job keeping his room clean 
19:04:33 <selsta> sethsimmons: not sure how much time you have, but do you want to do some basic testing for release-v0.17?
19:04:34 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I can admit that the first version is shitty cause the bob can scam alice.
19:04:35 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I didn't account for that.
19:04:35 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I will fix it though.
19:04:41 <sethsimmons> Let's play "how many actively contributing members of the Monero community can I insult in one day" with archeactiX!
19:04:43 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I promise.
19:05:08 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Damn that's clever, gaining the higher moral ground like this.
19:05:14 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I am totally socially defeated now.
19:05:19 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I am done.
19:05:40 <sethsimmons> selsta: Happy to however I can help, but only have macOS access and Linux CLI during normal business hours.
19:05:47 <sethsimmons> Is this for v0.17.3.0 release?
19:05:50 <selsta> yes
19:06:00 <selsta> we could tag now but I want someone else to do basic testing too
19:06:05 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> at least you did put some effort into code before pushing a valuable contributor away...
19:06:09 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I bet 10k usd in monero you don't even know why linux is so important for monero users.
19:06:09 <selsta> so that we don't have some obvious issue, not that I think any exist
19:06:17 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Cause you're a total amateur in tech.
19:06:30 <selsta> lol
19:06:46 <selsta> archeactiX trying to bait everyone today
19:07:02 <sethsimmons> selsta: Yeah, happy to -- have testing builds of CLI/GUI ready, or do I need to build myself?
19:07:04 <nioc> archeactiX I am monero's CEO, u should be talking to me
19:07:38 <selsta> sethsimmons: if you can compile yourself it would be ideal, we usually only have binaries after we tagged
19:08:02 <selsta> (CLI)
19:08:33 <sethsimmons> selsta: kk
19:08:55 <sethsimmons> Is there a tag yet, or should I just use release-v0.17?
19:08:59 <selsta> no tag yet
19:09:04 <sethsimmons> I can just check myself, nvm
19:09:49 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Seth if I act like you're not a manipulative politician like scammer will you stop censoring me in the site?
19:10:05 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I can try selling bullshit to people too, but I am not really proficient in it.
19:10:12 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I can pay you to teach me.
19:10:15 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> you can try? you did actually do that
19:10:43 <nioc> archeactiX can I please call you names?
19:10:46 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> trying to snipe the eth swap bounty with a bullshit swap that doesnt work
19:10:49 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Nah I can't scam anyone, I am too prideful and honest and my emotions get the best of me.
19:11:03 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I wish I was like these guys, power hungry and narcissistic.
19:11:03 <shermand100[m]> sethsimmons: Just because you're testing anyway... Is there any reason you know of that means it's not giving a good build on Bullseye? I've been struggling for a few days.
19:11:03 <shermand100[m]> Monerod runs then exits with "Bus Error"
19:11:03 <shermand100[m]> Same build (as per github build instructions on Buster is fine)
19:11:03 <shermand100[m]> Only if you know of something or have a chance to try?
19:11:06 <sethsimmons> selsta: Building now, will test my Docker images at the same time.
19:11:16 <selsta> ty
19:11:40 <selsta> this is the release that will support --proxy flag for running daemon over tor
19:12:02 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Hold up.
19:12:03 <selsta> (not just transactions over tor)
19:12:08 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Daemon over tor?
19:12:27 <selsta> just socks5 proxy support
19:12:36 <selsta> which you can use together with tor
19:12:40 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You guys want that and you pay this guy for it?
19:12:56 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> If I provide it for free will you stop bandwagonning him?
19:13:00 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Actual question btw.
19:13:15 <nioc> just asking questions
19:13:52 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I am not trolling.
19:13:57 <sethsimmons> selsta: Does the flag support DNS names for the Tor node?
19:14:03 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Unlike the trustless part of swap I got this ready.
19:14:03 <sethsimmons> s/node/host/
19:14:16 <selsta> no, I think you opened an issue for it?
19:14:42 <selsta> it wasn't changed since then
19:15:01 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> If I provide you for free with all the requirements you scam these people for will you stop censoring me daddy?
19:15:15 <sethsimmons> Yeah I did
19:15:18 <sethsimmons> OK
19:15:21 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> You ask for 10k for a solution I give it for free.
19:15:22 <sethsimmons> Big sad for Docker usage 😢
19:16:15 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> @archeactiX several community members have reported you are interfering with their vibe. either check your vibe right now or get vibe-checked by me 🔫
19:16:44 <nioc> I am making a pot of tea.  Anybody want some?
19:17:23 <sethsimmons> Would love a cup
19:17:33 <sethsimmons> When privacy-preserving digital tea 😲
19:17:58 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Sounds like tyrannical censorship to me.
19:18:02 <nioc> got some as a gift, gunna try the oolong 
19:18:05 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> That goes against the monero protocol how biased.
19:18:26 <sethsimmons> nioc: Nice 😀
19:18:31 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Threatening me using authority like this.
19:18:37 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> What rules did i break btw.
19:19:08 <nioc> you can disagree but not be disagreeable 
19:19:11 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Wtf you don't even have any rules.
19:19:14 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> the monero protocol transfers value in an unstoppable, untraceable way. this is just a discord and we dont want unnecessary drama like that
19:19:41 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> That's just closed minded, drama creates intrigue and suspicion around monero.
19:19:42 <shermand100[m]> Seth For Privacy: Don't suppose you're doing a build on Bullseye?
19:19:51 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Drama sells better than celebrity nudes.
19:19:58 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Don't be closed.
19:20:03 <bridgerton[m]> * be closed minded.
19:20:12 <bridgerton[m]> <monerobull> eh, people are trying to work in here, read the rules of the discord https://monero.space/terms/Monero%20Space%20Code%20of%20Conduct%202020-10-29.pdf
19:20:23 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I been working too dude, I say this un ironically.
19:20:47 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I am trying to find a solution for the scamming of bob without using super advanced cryptography.
19:20:49 <sethsimmons> shermand100[m]: No, Ubuntu only ATM.
19:21:17 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> It's hard af, show some sympathy unlike you guys I don't scam the monero community and I am not rich cause of it.
19:21:29 <selsta> sethsimmons: oh and do you have a ledger?
19:21:50 <sethsimmons> selsta: Yes, and Trezor
19:21:58 <sethsimmons> Can test both, but have never compiled GUI before
19:21:59 <selsta> ok, can you test ledger without updating the monero app?
19:22:03 <selsta> with CLI
19:22:12 <sethsimmons> I'll test CLI with both later tonight if I get the chance.
19:22:16 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Hold up.
19:22:22 <selsta> basically the CLI should complain that the Ledger app is outdated
19:22:29 <selsta> and that you need 1.7.8
19:22:36 <selsta> just want to know if that works correctly
19:22:45 <selsta> I updated my app already so not sure how to downgrade and test
19:22:47 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> https://github.com/Archeactive/Ledger-Desktop-Interface
19:22:59 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I actually been working on a trezor - monero bridge.
19:23:19 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Daddy if I pass you the finished version will you stop censoring me when I call you out on your bullshit?
19:23:25 <sethsimmons> selsta: Haven't  used my Ledger in some time so should be a good test 😀
19:25:16 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Phew, ledger leaks your identity worse than bitcoin. Now I don't have to worry about avenging how you treated me unfairly, will get feded.
19:25:17 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Thank god.
19:26:04 <sethsimmons> bridgerton[m]: Are you threatening to doxx me or report me to the feds?
19:27:20 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Nah despite how much I despise your scamming existence I wouldn't fall that low.
19:27:25 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I am actually serious.
19:27:41 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> If I provide you with what you look for - for free will you stop censoring me?
19:27:46 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Like I am actually anti government bro.
19:27:59 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> I want to help monero more than I despise you.
19:28:04 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> (no troll)
19:31:10 <chad[m]1> bridgerton[m]: Spoken like a true glowie
19:31:59 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> Okay i am a federal agent you got me, I am here to arrest you all and put handcuffs on you.
19:32:04 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> (dm me)
19:33:12 <chad[m]1> Good news is, CIA Steve will sign off at 5pm, and we can get back to a normal conversation again
19:34:07 <bridgerton[m]> <archeactiX> If i am off duty I can't talk with you bro, your lsd purchases in white house market aren't that interesting to me sorry.
19:36:25 <bridgerton[m]> <sgp> archeactiX has been banned on the Discord side for 14 days
19:37:02 <chad[m]1> * chad buys sgp a beer
19:38:09 <sethsimmons> selsta: deployed release-v0.17 on two of my nodes, will leave my most-used node for last but so far seems solid. Will test CLI next.
20:05:42 <saleph[m]> Hello everyone, recently I've got fascinated by Monero, mostly regarding it's approach to privacy, fungibility and it's goals (to be e-cash, not just another questionable coin). I'm C++ dev with CS degree and with 5y of exp in teleco (mostly 4G), mostly working with low level stuff (cache friendly structures, segmentation fault debugging, top-down system optimization etc). I'd like to help in the project. I already started chewing
20:05:42 <saleph[m]> through Zero to Monero 2.0, what else would you suggest to take a look at?
20:08:12 <sethsimmons> Welcome, saleph 🙂
20:08:22 <sethsimmons> Some other good channels to join here would likely be #monero-recruitment and #monero-dev:monero.social 
20:08:38 <sethsimmons> ZtoM is a great starting point!
20:09:19 <sethsimmons> Some more great tips and places to investigate are here:
20:09:19 <sethsimmons> - https://www.monero.observer/ultimate-guide-new-monero-contributors/
20:09:19 <sethsimmons> - https://blog.sethforprivacy.com/posts/contributing-to-monero/#for-developers
20:13:09 <saleph[m]> > <@sethsimmons:monero.social> Some more great tips and places to investigate are here:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/e5f1d98f828e17cfea9ecca651fd6a718450ccab)
20:15:56 <crypto_grampy[m]> Other stuff:  Check out the Mastering Monero book (free download: https://masteringmonero.com/free-download.html),  join the #monero-research-lab:monero.social channel and get a few neros for completing bounties here: https://bounties.monero.social/ 
20:16:42 <sethsimmons> selsta: so far no issues with daemon or monero-wallet-cli, will test HW wallets later.
20:16:52 <selsta> ty
20:17:15 <sethsimmons> sweep_below is a command I hadn't seen before, very useful for p2pool outputs 😀
20:17:40 <crypto_grampy[m]> sethsimmons: wat does it do
20:18:00 <sethsimmons> sweeps outputs below an amount threshold
20:18:21 <sethsimmons> So I can only sweep the small coinbase outputs and not previously combined outputs
20:18:30 <crypto_grampy[m]> ah
20:18:35 <crypto_grampy[m]> that's cool
20:19:05 <crypto_grampy[m]> those p2pool tx's really start piling up 👀
20:19:09 <saleph[m]> crypto_grampy[m]: Awesome :) This will feed me for quite some time, thanks!
20:20:14 <crypto_grampy[m]> saleph[m]: Oh, one more: https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues/94
20:22:26 <saleph[m]> crypto_grampy[m]: Oh, I've seen and bookmarked that one already, will be a great way to face the theory with real applications, thanks :)
20:33:15 <escapethe3ra[m]> https://www.monero.observer/monero-observer-xmr-analysis-week-47-2021/
20:35:26 <sethsimmons> selsta: Tested restore of three varying age (one very old, one very recent, and one moderately recent) wallets with release-v0.17 CLI against release-v0.17 node, no issues.
20:36:02 <sethsimmons> Testing sending as well, of both single input and many-input transactions, no issues.
20:36:22 <selsta> good
20:36:30 <selsta> guess we can tag once hyc tested reproducible builds
21:09:46 <nikg83[m]> https://twitter.com/cakewallet/status/1465406387077500934?s=21
21:23:13 <sethsimmons> Bold move 😛
21:24:21 <nikg83[m]> sethsimmons: Poor judgment I would say 
21:25:36 <sethsimmons> I understand the reasoning but it's going to piss off a lot of Monero maximalists, and I don't love supporting a coin with such poor history and ethos.
21:25:42 <nikg83[m]> Anyways they seem to have turned into a crypto wallet than a xmr wallet
21:25:47 <sethsimmons> But will be pushing for a Monero-only version of Cake Wallet ASAP.
21:26:00 <sethsimmons> Don't want/need BTC/LTC/ZEC in my Monero wallet.
21:26:13 <nikg83[m]> sethsimmons: Indeed 
21:26:36 <sethsimmons> nikg83[m]: Which 100% makes sense from a business perspective, and is fine as long as Monero remains priority #1 
21:27:20 <sethsimmons> https://twitter.com/cakewallet/status/1465431018014445573?s=20
21:48:06 <sgp_> fwiw, we've never take Monero community money, through the CCS or any other way
21:48:06 <nikg83[m]> sgp_: Nobody said so, feel free to add xhv too 
22:03:37 <mcfranko[m]> <nikg83[m]> "Well most of us here don’t..." <- I don't see why everyone has to be so tribalist. Zcash is making some cool tech, that does have flaws, but is still promising nonetheless. 
22:15:39 <carrington[m]> I was under the impression that not using t-addresses was too resource intensive for mobile apps or something. Is this something orchard/halo is helping with or was I just misinformed in the first place?
22:16:49 <sgp_> Sprout was super big and slow
22:16:59 <sgp_> so mobile was effectively not possible
22:17:12 <sgp_> Sapling was kinda in the middle. Possible, but the tooling was meh
22:17:27 <sgp_> With Orchard, they've stepped up their game
22:23:33 <monerobull[m]> <mcfranko[m]> "I don't see why everyone has..." <- If i wanted zk-tech, I'd go with some roll-up thing that doesn't have as shady of a history as ZCash corp
22:24:14 <monerobull[m]> "maybe we can make it just private enough for normal people, while also not private enough for criminals"
22:24:17 <carrington[m]> Because ETH doesn't have a shady history at all 🙄
22:25:21 <monerobull[m]> carrington[m]: Convinced, I'm going with the guy paying himself 300k a month and then demanding funding from the community or else development stops
22:26:23 <carrington[m]> Was it 300k per month for one person? Imagine what that could have paid for in Monero world...
22:29:22 <monerobull[m]> 300k per month for zooko alone
22:29:32 <monerobull[m]> Btw did he really name the coin after himself?
22:30:32 <BusyBoredom[m]> Let's try to keep things civil with the zcash people. Their dev tax is funding work that monero can use too, and we may someday want to work with one or more of their devs to implement some of their tech (like the accumulator based proofs, those are pretty hot). 
22:31:00 <BusyBoredom[m]> This is not the type of field where making enemies is useful. 
22:31:31 <monerobull[m]> Isn't their tech copyrighted lmaooo
22:32:11 <monerobull[m]> And people shill it as a feature of how great the coin is
22:32:21 <monerobull[m]> "you can't use their tech for a whole year"
22:32:37 <carrington[m]> It was in some weird restricted thing for 1 year but either that's finished now or other projects are completely ignoring it
22:32:38 <BusyBoredom[m]> Nope, you can read their license on their github: https://github.com/zcash/halo2
22:33:14 <carrington[m]> E.g. there is a project called DarkFi using the halo2 code
22:33:38 <BusyBoredom[m]> It is a very promising feature. Good ideas can come from anywhere, and this one might help us someday. 
22:33:46 <monerobull[m]> Ah what do I care, let them test run their moon math and maybe we adopt it at some point.
22:34:15 <Save_G[m]> Sounds good
22:34:21 <BusyBoredom[m]> ^Exactly. There's nothing wrong with using math they paid for. 
22:34:57 <atomfried[m]> once sit is decided if seraphis will be used in monero, maybe the mrl could try to hire someone to check if the grottle proofs can be replaced with some accumulator based proof referencing the whole transaction graph. (maybe sarang)
22:35:19 <atomfried[m]> s/sit/it/
22:35:20 <Save_G[m]> I dont get the negative altitude towards zcash they are natural allies with a shady profit incentive but still allies. 
22:35:48 <jwinterm[m]> Save_G[m]: That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works
22:35:51 <jwinterm[m]> Lol
22:36:08 <monerobull[m]> Save_G[m]: I dont like their supporters. They clearly don't know anything about the tech of their own bag but shit talk monero.
22:36:11 <jwinterm[m]> At least according to toxic maximalist people
22:36:51 <monerobull[m]> Why is ZCash good? 
22:36:51 <monerobull[m]> -zksnarks
22:36:51 <monerobull[m]> -halo
22:36:52 <monerobull[m]> Can you explain what they do?
22:37:09 <monerobull[m]> No but i know monero is just a shell game!
22:38:27 <BusyBoredom[m]> It's an alternative to ring signatures, it's like having a ring size equal to all past shielded transactions. 
22:38:40 <Save_G[m]> There are non rational people on both sides I'd rather talk about how we can improve from the tech they provide 
22:40:01 <BusyBoredom[m]> Oh man I'm slow, I just realized that was a rhetorical question. 
22:42:23 <BusyBoredom[m]> Regardless, I don't think we should be trashing another privacy-focused community. Those devs are good at their jobs, and the followers at least see the value in privacy. Trash the dev tax, not the devs. 
22:42:45 <Save_G[m]> Let's say zksnarks improve a lot in the next 15 years and are generally considered to be very safe would monero adopt it if we didn't come up with a better improvement by that time? 
22:43:22 <monerobull[m]> Save_G[m]: Probably, we already have zk proofs for confidential ammounts
22:43:30 <monerobull[m]> * Probably, we already have zk proofs for confidential amounts
22:44:59 <atomfried[m]> maybe monero does not need the whole halo framework, monero would only need on pretty specific type of proof, which could be much easier
22:44:59 <Save_G[m]> BusyBoredom[m]: I Love this attitude 
22:45:56 <monerobull[m]> I don't believe most ZCash followers follow it for it's privacy, rather because they see it was once worth 2000$ 
22:49:18 <BusyBoredom[m]> I suggest you ask them and find out.
22:52:13 <BusyBoredom[m]> ^ That reads more aggressively than I meant it to
22:52:30 <Save_G[m]> I think having a corporate Allie that gets its questionable funding and resulting development and research work done cannot be bad for monero in any way it can only benefit it, while monero stays the squeeky clean least scammy coin with cutting edge tech. 
22:56:13 <monerobull[m]> Not if ZCash uses it's infinite dev funds to market us into obscurity
22:58:14 <BusyBoredom[m]> Economics always wins. As long as monero provides the same privacy or better for the same price or lower, we have nothing to worry about (in the long run).
22:59:13 <spackle[m]> It is hard to pay for better marketing than news items like the successful retirement of WHM.
23:00:07 <nikg83[m]> BusyBoredom[m]: Monero survives just as a tool, in and out ; keeps getting dumped to oblivion reducing network security at some point 
23:00:39 <monerobull[m]> "this ZCash seems private enough and i can even stake it"
23:01:06 <monerobull[m]> Also coin bureau guy said it's better than monero in his last video
23:01:21 <monerobull[m]> And snowden says it's good
23:01:39 <nikg83[m]> Even cake will make it better
23:02:28 <monerobull[m]> "even what used to be a monero wallet added ZCash"
23:02:30 <nikg83[m]> * > <@busyboredom:monero.social> Economics always wins. As long as monero provides the same privacy or better for the same price or lower, we have nothing to worry about (in the long run).
23:02:30 <nikg83[m]> Monero survives just as a tool, in and out ; keeps getting dumped to oblivion , reducing network security at some point 
23:02:33 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Zcash isn't ASIC resistance and is moving to PoS. Simple arguments against it.
23:02:59 <BusyBoredom[m]> Alrighty, I'mma go back to reading the halo 2 book. 
23:03:00 <Rucknium[m]> Keep in mind: "We believe the shift to proof of stake is achievable within three years if we are able to focus our time and efforts and hire additional talent."
23:03:00 <Rucknium[m]> https://electriccoin.co/blog/ecc-roadmap-calls-for-focus-on-wallet-proof-of-stake-and-interoperability/
23:03:07 <Rucknium[m]> Three year timeline
23:03:24 <monerobull[m]> Rucknium[m]: How long was eth pos supposed to take?
23:03:51 <bridgerton[m]> <eli> Idk if that's in response to me
23:04:09 <bridgerton[m]> s/in/a/
23:04:34 <nikg83[m]> Rucknium[m]: Atleast they have a roadmap 😅
23:04:40 <Rucknium[m]> It's just general info about what timeline we're talking about here.
23:05:07 <monerobull[m]> I swear to God of cakewallet makes monerotalk promote that they added ZCash
23:05:14 <monerobull[m]> s/of/if/
23:06:03 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: It will be discussed, I doubt it’s going to be positive though 😅
23:06:36 <monerobull[m]> Cant talk bad about your sponsors, can you?
23:07:08 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: You can give your perspective 
23:12:20 <nikg83[m]> Can someone tell why coinbase never added monero ?
23:14:49 <monerobull[m]> government told them it would be better not to add it
23:15:18 <monerobull[m]> Well gee, wonder why they have zcash
23:15:19 <nioc> look at the bottom of this page, gives good reasons why zec is moving to pos,  given that info guess montero should as well
23:15:22 <nioc> https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/KpPaVencgTVxuiKhycSSWCmA/ima_c2c7dc3.jpeg
23:15:54 <crestani[m]> is monero prone to being broken by quantum computing?
23:16:05 <nioc> everthing is prone
23:16:19 <monerobull[m]> Hm yes, we carefully evaluated the pros and cons and decided number go up is the deciding factor
23:17:06 <crestani[m]> is there a ranking somewhere of whats most/least prone to quantum computing? (im assuming it has something to do with how hard each thing is to break)
23:18:19 <nioc> I'm sure there is but I don't know
23:26:52 <crestani[m]> are there any good sci-fi books you guys have read that show specific uses and whatnot for crypto? 
23:29:36 <bridgerton[m]> <against covid vaccines> zcash uses rust?
23:29:41 <bridgerton[m]> <against covid vaccines> dropped
23:30:08 <jwinterm[m]> crestani[m]: Snowcrash is pretty great and not directly cryptocurrency related but did coin the word metaverse
23:31:30 <crestani[m]> yea ive definitely read snowcrash (finishing up his latest book today). He predicts normalized use of multiple cryptos, and the carrying of them on keychain dongles
23:33:03 <jwinterm[m]> It's weird how much 80s/90s scifi stuff just uses "credits" as this universal digital currency payment and banking protocol with no further explanation
23:34:17 <nioc> credits in a central database
23:34:59 <nioc> just a way of being cashless