00:56:36 <O0c> Can I solo mine monero?
03:32:32 <lza_menace> Ya 
04:30:09 <kinghat[m]> https://therecord.media/a-mysterious-threat-actor-is-running-hundreds-of-malicious-tor-relays/
07:21:54 <lous1F> anyone with OpenAlias here?
08:56:01 <netrik182> Yes
08:57:48 <netrik182> lous1F: need help?
09:26:26 <lousiF> @netrik182, need more domains with oa1: in their dns TXT records.
09:27:19 <lousiF> it's not known about well enough IMO.
09:27:42 <lousiF> that or people are just to lazy to edit their DNS. lol
09:29:14 <lousiF> tested with Feather earlier, have not tried sending from a mobile wallet
09:29:48 <lousiF> Feather resolves OA addresses instantly
09:30:26 <plowsof[m]> lous1F: lous1F cakewallet 🍰 supports them fine 
09:30:29 <netrik182> Monerujo does too
09:30:36 <lousiF> thought so
09:31:06 <lousiF> not tried cake, why isn't it in f-droid??
09:31:45 <lousiF> the issue on github is still open
09:32:25 <carrington[m]> They have an APK on their github 
09:33:46 <lousiF> it's not on f-droid.
09:34:08 <lousiF> GMS, FCM. not needed
10:53:36 <gabitus[m]> Hello! Our team is working with a Google Ads, specifically with Google Search Advertising. We are looking for the new projects at the moment.
10:53:36 <gabitus[m]> Your company is very interesting for us. What type of partnership do you have? Do you have a referral program?
11:00:27 <lousiF> gabitus[m], which company are you talking about?
11:00:56 <gabitus[m]> lousiF: Monero 
11:01:12 <lousiF> Monero is not a company
11:01:46 <lousiF> do you see the name of the channel you're in?
11:06:39 <jonah_xd[m]> Hi I'm the ceo
11:35:00 <kayabaNerve> Quick question about SCRT network which recently hit the Monero subreddit feed again. How much has the community discussed it in the past? And feel free to suggest I discuss this in a better channel.
11:36:05 <kayabaNerve> My point is I feel like there's a ton of oversights and omissions that should cause everyone to just immediately dismiss SCRT yet I didn't see any opposition that wasn't downvoted heavily.
11:36:54 <kayabaNerve> And yes, the community isn't me, so that just means the community disagrees with me. That's fine. I'm curious if a lack of education would explain that or if there have been comprehensive discussions on how SCRT, and its bridge, works (which not everyone may have seen, but eh, only so much you can do).
11:45:48 <ComplyLast> some people like it, some people think it's a scam waiting to happen, it's not trustless
11:48:23 <kayabaNerve> ComplyLast: Nor is it private.
11:48:45 <kayabaNerve> That's my main issue with it. I legitimately think they have an extremely immoral advertising campaign and are blatant liars about their whole schtick
11:49:00 <kayabaNerve> And they claim the bridge is at least open source *when it is absolutely not*
11:49:11 <ComplyLast> nor is it private in which sense?
11:49:19 <ComplyLast> I haven't looked too much into it tbh
11:49:21 <kayabaNerve> I think there's like an empty repo labelled for the code and then a repo for the "explanation" with 2 markdown files that are generally meaningless
11:49:31 <kayabaNerve> It uses the Intel SGX to provide confidentiality
11:49:35 <ComplyLast> oh yes I know
11:49:42 <kayabaNerve> It takes me more than one hand to count the amount of Intel SGX data extraction exploits
11:49:48 <kayabaNerve> And Intel has full access to it
11:49:57 <kayabaNerve> Which means any competent nation state can get full access
11:50:19 <ComplyLast> or at least states that are friendly with the US
11:50:22 <kayabaNerve> So private, *unless you're Intel, a nation state, or yet another exploit has occurred
11:50:37 <kayabaNerve> Pretty sure the Intel CEO will do whatever you want for 100 billion dollars
11:50:50 <ComplyLast> I do think they clearly outline that they rely on SGX though
11:50:52 <kayabaNerve> Pretty sure you don't have to be friendly with gthe US to have a ton of money
11:51:01 <kayabaNerve> They do, but they never cover the complete access Intel has
11:51:12 <ComplyLast> thats up to the user to do RTFM
11:51:17 <kayabaNerve> Nor its extremely problematic history which shows it's really not trustworthy
11:51:27 <kayabaNerve> K except it's definitively not private thanks to the Intel access
11:51:58 <kayabaNerve> So even if you say RTFM, when the manual explicitly says their foremost claim is incorrect... how is this moral or good or justifiable?
11:52:10 <ComplyLast> hmm
11:52:17 <ComplyLast> I guess it's a matter of trade-offs
11:52:20 <kayabaNerve> I did read this blog post from them which was the most comprehensive resource I could find https://carter-woetzel.medium.com/secret-network-tees-lets-talk-fud-vulnerability-33ca94b6df38
11:52:26 <ComplyLast> for some people privacy granted by SGX might be good enough
11:52:46 <kayabaNerve> It says na 0-day exploit is needed which requires a lab and hardware access
11:53:00 <ComplyLast> privacy is also a spectrum to some extent
11:53:03 <kayabaNerve> Multiple SGX exploits were software based and publicized before patching
11:53:22 <ComplyLast> SGX is dog shit
11:53:27 <kayabaNerve> One SGX exploit which did have hardware underclocking was able to be performed with ~$40 of hobbyist equipment according to the researchers
11:53:28 <ComplyLast> you dont need to convince me
11:53:38 <lousiF> * Disconnected ()
11:53:39 <lousiF> * Now talking on #monero-community
11:53:43 <kayabaNerve> Right. But if you go to the homepage, they don't say "As private as the SGX*". They say "private".
11:53:46 <lousiF> <kayabaNerve> ComplyLast: Nor is it private.
11:54:07 <lousiF> just missed it, what are you speaking about?
11:54:12 <ComplyLast> SCRT
11:54:13 <kayabaNerve> And their Medium post completely gaslights the requirements to attack their network
11:54:46 <kayabaNerve> I also don't think we can say RTFM all the time when we're discussing people who don't know how to code and don't know cryptography. Requiring that just means most people can't/shouldn't be in crypto
11:54:51 <ComplyLast> I personally dont use it and if people ask me I'll share my concerns
11:55:02 <ComplyLast> One could argue it's more private than CEXes though
11:55:19 <ComplyLast> so I guess the problem boils down to.. what's the alternative?
11:55:20 <kayabaNerve> One company has access to CEX data, and the governments they share with
11:55:28 <kayabaNerve> With this, one company has access, and the governments they share with
11:55:50 <ComplyLast> there's one variable there
11:56:06 <kayabaNerve> And I understand even privacy protocols can be broken. XMR and ZEC have had exploitable code in the past. XMR and ZEC were in no way conceivably exploitable at the time they made claims. As soon as they learned of extremely feasible problems, they were completely honest and transparent about it and moved forward
11:56:09 <ComplyLast> you're assuming Intel is actively backdooring each SGX instance out there.
11:56:14 <kayabaNerve> ... no?
11:56:23 <kayabaNerve> They can just build a new chip and do whatever throughout all of history
11:56:34 <ComplyLast> on the case of DEXs we not only know they do but they actively share data
11:56:42 <ComplyLast> so for some users, it might be better to use scrt still
11:56:42 <kayabaNerve> They prototype an open SGX, if they don't already have one. They sync SCRT. They have the data.
11:56:51 <ComplyLast> also no KYC involved
11:56:59 <kayabaNerve> They can spoof any version of the SGX they want. They can spoof any software is running. They can access all data inside of it.
11:57:13 <kayabaNerve> The KYC argument is fair except no one calls CEXs private, even when they don't have KYC
11:57:15 <ComplyLast> I'm just defending the viewpoint of people who might find it useful regardless, which is not my case.
11:57:22 <kayabaNerve> I'm not saying it's useless
11:57:43 <kayabaNerve> I'm saying it's immoral to call it private and gaslight what's required to attack the network while lying about your software's open source status.
11:58:05 <ComplyLast> I think those are a fair critics
11:58:06 <kayabaNerve> But yes, you're right, it is still an improvement over Ethereum confidentiality *until its misrepresented*
11:58:21 <ComplyLast> bitcoin is an improvement over ETH confidentiality
11:58:27 <kayabaNerve> But the fact it has been so misrepresented... yeah. At least with ETH you know what you're getting.
11:58:30 <ComplyLast> anything is an improvement over ETH account based system
11:58:46 <kayabaNerve> ETH is honest with you about privacy lol
11:58:50 <kayabaNerve> And SCRT is also account based
11:58:53 <ComplyLast> I guess
11:59:31 <kayabaNerve> Like I know ETH has a ton of problems and SCRT's ability to use wasm is great. I'm not calling it a bad SC platform. If the SGX is available with no penalty, *why not use it*
11:59:32 <ComplyLast> Even Tari that claims it's private will have its own trade-offs there, if it ever launches.
11:59:49 <kayabaNerve> 96% GRIN de-anonymization anyone?
12:00:05 <kayabaNerve> *I do understand the GRIN de-anon was based on network traffic observation and several mitigations were proposed
12:00:24 <kayabaNerve> But also, MW is amount private until QCs
12:00:26 <Inge> Beam did a good deal of mitigation to te basic MW protocol tho
12:01:02 <kayabaNerve> Secret isn't even amount private now
12:01:40 <ComplyLast> also you need to onramp via email
12:01:43 <ComplyLast> :P
12:04:12 <lousiF> With a name like "Secret" that is not secret at all
12:04:22 <lousiF> pretty blantly dumb name
12:04:54 <lousiF> I'm just assuming it is the opposite of a secret
12:04:56 <lousiF> lol
12:05:03 <kayabaNerve> ComplyLast: That one I don't get
12:05:18 <kayabaNerve> Like you can't easily specify a SCRT address in a XMR TX. Memo field isn't UX accessible
12:05:25 <kayabaNerve> *just generate a new address*
12:05:33 <ComplyLast> afaik you need to email them to wrap your XMR into sXMR
12:05:46 <ComplyLast> and it's a manual process on their side completely trusted
12:05:52 <lousiF> why even use it then
12:06:15 <ComplyLast> I dont, some people do and prefer it to using CEXes 
12:06:23 <lousiF> what advantage does it have if any?
12:06:27 <ComplyLast> In the end the more options the better
12:06:37 <ComplyLast> Some degree of privacy and no kyc
12:06:46 <ComplyLast> that's what I would say
12:07:05 <lousiF> hrmm
12:07:50 <lousiF> the name is lame
12:07:52 <lousiF> af
12:08:02 <lousiF> period
12:09:49 <lousiF> https://scrt.network/
12:10:33 <lousiF> looking at the corporate logos at the footer is an instant turn off
12:11:45 <lousiF> cointelegraph is run by scam artists
12:12:07 <lousiF> a link to a Nasdaq article?
12:14:32 <kayabaNerve> ComplyLast: Probably why it's not open source despite their blog post claiming it is
12:14:51 <kayabaNerve> Again, I'm fine with calling it equivalent to a CEX for privacy. No one calls CEXs private.
12:15:08 <lousiF> https://github.com/SecretFoundation/awesome-secret   ???
12:15:35 <lousiF> "Secret Monero Bridge - Turn your XMR into the SNIP-20 sXMR"
12:15:52 <lousiF> y
12:16:06 <kayabaNerve> "DeFi"
12:16:12 <lousiF> ShitFi
12:17:38 <kayabaNerve> Oh. According to this, the bridge server does exist as a zip file on their repo.
12:17:52 <kayabaNerve> So either I've missed it for months or it's a comment only recently published despite a historic date.
12:20:48 <kayabaNerve> ... I'm not sure I trust downloading a zip file off GitHub but I'll drop my non-OSS claim for now
12:21:32 <kayabaNerve> A lot of these files are months after April though
12:21:48 <kayabaNerve> *May, when this was published as "open source"
12:22:44 <lousiF> -- https://github.com/scrtlabs/SecretNetwork
12:22:49 <lousiF> -- https://github.com/SecretFoundation/SecretNetwork   ???
12:23:09 <lousiF> done looking at that thing
12:23:11 <lousiF> lol
12:25:12 <kayabaNerve> No, its on someone's personal account.
12:26:41 <kayabaNerve> I may have been a dunce who missed the zip file or they may have forgotten to git push despite having the commit. The DApp is definitely from the last month. The token was undocumented yet just the reference impl of a SCRT token so that's... meh.
12:30:59 <kayabaNerve> The emails may be automatically parsed to execute deposits/withdrawals? Yet then the bridge isn't OSS
12:39:43 <kayabaNerve> Is a human OSS anyways?
14:48:48 <msvb-lab> Community meeting starting in this room in about two hours!
14:48:51 <msvb-lab> https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/638/
14:52:23 <msvb-mtx[m]> Is the Matrix IRC bridge working now? Test ping.
14:52:45 <msvb-lab> Looks good msvb-mtx[m] you idiot.
15:59:44 <SerHack> Hey, is there RogueMaven around? Send me a message
17:00:12 <Keiji[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/638
17:00:17 <carrington[m]> Hello and welcome to a Monero community meeting! These meetings are a chance for updates on recent events in Monero, as well as focussed discussion on crowd funding proposals. Please try and stick to the agenda, as there will hopefully be time at the end for any other business.
17:00:20 <Keiji[m]> 1. Greetings
17:00:40 <msvb-lab> Hello.
17:00:44 <carrington[m]> Hi hello howareya
17:00:47 <Rucknium[m]> Present :)
17:00:55 <midipoet> hi
17:00:56 <rottenstonks> Greetings.
17:01:18 <netrik182> Hi
17:01:47 <elizabeth[m]> hey :) 
17:02:17 <carrington[m]> As far as updates for the past week or so:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/fceb60578176191a0bf8169ded70db12652a0bf0)
17:03:26 <msvb-lab> Wow the new Haveno site looks very good, is the author here?
17:03:34 <msvb-lab> https://haveno.exchange/
17:03:42 <netrik182> About the point release. We had plenty of languages updated in GUI as well
17:03:49 <rottenstonks> gnuteardrops announced their website for publishing Monero designs. https://monero.graphics/
17:04:20 <carrington[m]> Yes I saw that there was some giant translation PR, that's good to see
17:04:51 <carrington[m]> I assume ErCiccione is behind the haveno website, don't think they are here
17:06:03 <carrington[m]> We can move onto CCS proposals/updates if no one wants to highlight anything else
17:06:45 <carrington[m]> First up is monero-guides  proposal to create a video guide series
17:06:48 <carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/271
17:07:24 <Rucknium[m]> OSPEAD Update: Work continues. I am getting feedback on how to present the "dry run" results from carrington  and jberman  . Follow the progress here if you dare: https://github.com/Rucknium/OSPEAD
17:08:00 <carrington[m]> It doesn't look like they are here. My own opinion is that the first guide video they made was great so a series sounds good. I'm less sure on if the price is a fair level because I am not involved in video production.
17:08:34 <carrington[m]> Rucknium: sorry for the delay getting back to you, other stuff has gotten in the way recently
17:08:35 <netrik182> Can't comment on prices neither 
17:09:20 <Rucknium[m]> carrington: No problem at all. In parallel I am working on BCH stuff, so there is no real delay.
17:10:15 <carrington[m]> If no one has any comments on monero-guides proposal for now we can move on
17:10:53 <midipoet> we should try and comment on the proposal/MR at least (if at minimum for feedback?)
17:10:53 <carrington[m]> I probably should have shilled this meeting more widely to get proposers to be here to answer questions. Sorry about that.
17:11:01 <carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/273
17:11:09 <netrik182> Fwiw I think a video series would be nice
17:11:58 <carrington[m]> Yes please drop a comment on any proposals you have opinions on (applies to everyone)
17:12:06 <carrington[m]> On the MRs
17:12:15 <Rucknium[m]> I think the monero-guides proposal should go to funding stage, personally.
17:13:03 <carrington[m]> Next is Pluja's proposal for Monero education content
17:13:17 <carrington[m]> (I can't find their matrix handle to tag them)
17:13:33 <msvb-mob> I looked and tried to find them as well, but failed.
17:13:49 <msvb-mob> It's a really cool idea, wish we could ask questions.
17:14:13 <carrington[m]> My own opinion, which I'll add as a comment, is that extra education content would be most effective if it was worked into updates to getmonero.org
17:14:44 <msvb-mob> Or monerodocs.org.
17:14:57 <msvb-mob> Or pluja is correct to make it its own specific area.
17:15:26 <carrington[m]> Yeah I'm not sure which direction is best, but I'll suggest it as something for them to consider
17:15:57 <carrington[m]> Next is netrik182  's proposal for translation coordination
17:15:59 <carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/275
17:16:52 <carrington[m]> Would you like to summarize your plans netrik182 ?
17:16:53 <netrik182> Yeah, first month is completed and I would like to keep managing translations
17:17:12 <netrik182> I'm open to any questions you may have
17:17:17 <netrik182> Sure carrington 
17:17:42 <carrington[m]> I'm glad that your first month didn't put you off and that it seems lots of successful translation was completed
17:18:01 <netrik182> Plan is to keep managing contributors and all resources mentioned in the proposal
17:18:37 <carrington[m]> Do you feel there is a decent number/variety of translators to keep up with changes to the software?
17:18:54 <netrik182> I personally interested in advancing getmonero.org translation 
17:19:36 <netrik182> The Russian, Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese are most active 
17:19:57 <netrik182> GUI is 100% translated in those languages 
17:20:09 <netrik182> German as well iirc
17:20:43 <midipoet> that's pretty cool
17:20:55 <netrik182> Dutch is pretty much active too
17:21:07 <carrington[m]> I think it is important to emphasise translator recruitment (if that is possible) in languages used in oppressive regimes with low English usage
17:21:30 <carrington[m]> Of course you can't make volunteers appear, but that is where XMR is most needed
17:22:09 <netrik182> https://translate.getmonero.org/engage/monero/
17:22:44 <carrington[m]> That is great to hear, and that site is very informative. Hopefully things will not get too crazy in the run up to the network upgrade.
17:22:53 <netrik182> Yeah, I am really interested in getmonero.org analytics
17:22:56 <msvb-mob> There are many interesting interfaces where a manager could make a difference, for example engaging the PT region if we're doing Monerokon in Lisboa.
17:23:12 <msvb-mob> ...which seems to already be quite healthy.
17:23:29 <netrik182> We would benefit knowing where people connect from
17:23:57 <netrik182> And which pages are most visited for example 
17:25:03 <carrington[m]> Such metrics would also interesting to people in #monero-ux:monero I think.social I think
17:25:03 <carrington[m]> Ill move us on to the TNABC proposal from msvb-mob as time is limited I think
17:25:17 <carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/274
17:25:22 <msvb-mob> Yes, dankon thanks.
17:25:43 <msvb-mob> The proposal is quite comprehensive, most things are described well there.
17:25:57 <carrington[m]> This proposal isn't visible in the "Ideas" frontend section of the CCS btw
17:25:57 <Rucknium[m]> If people are using Tor or VPNs, then source of connection  to the website doesn't tell much.
17:26:06 <msvb-mob> The tldr byline is 'we sideload a Monero component into a interesting BTC event by giving out free wallets.'
17:26:09 <sgp_> I think this conference is a good way to get in front of many people's faces
17:26:38 <msvb-mob> carrington[m]: Can you please suggest what I should do to correct the problem with the 'Ideas' missing?
17:26:45 <rottenstonks> carrington[m]: yes, not visible in the ideas section.
17:26:55 <rottenstonks> perhaps luigi1111 is the best suited to assess what is wrong with the draft.
17:27:18 <msvb-mob> I'm totally lost how to fix the problem with lack of 'Ideas.'
17:27:23 <carrington[m]> I'm not really sure why that has happened, but I can look into it later if no one else knows
17:27:46 <midipoet> i think the efforts at TNABC are a good idea. as long as we aren't parading around shouting "monero is the new/better/real bitcoin" to everyone, and rather subtly reminding/informing them of the benefits, i don't think there is much overarching risk.
17:28:30 <rottenstonks> msvb-mob: just in case, carrington[m] is referring to the proposal not showing up in this specific section of the CCS site. https://ccs.getmonero.org/ideas/
17:28:31 <netrik182> Rucknium: true. But knowing which pages they navigate most can be useful to translate first regardless the language 
17:28:40 <sgp_> midipoet: While true, there will be other coins there too so there's no way we can possibly be worse than all the other coins out there, lol
17:28:44 <msvb-mob> We chose staff members wisely to avoid the circus drama midipoet, because we have the same concern. It's a first year experimental interruption (to BTC.)
17:28:54 <carrington[m]> As I said in the MR, I think giving BTC and XMR equal prominence in the banner would help with this. If it already created then I guess it is too late
17:28:58 <rottenstonks> usually it is something to do with the content or the way the proposal gets submitted. something must be wrong. problem is, i don't know what that could be.
17:29:10 <midipoet> sgp_: well, that is probably true.
17:29:26 <msvb-mob> I understand the concept rottenstonks, just was hoping someone would spoon me the solution, oh well.
17:30:31 <midipoet> front-matter?
17:30:42 <rottenstonks> there are still a few things being deliberated in the comments section of that CCS MR, for what it is worth. everyone should feel welcome to reply and chime in there. https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/274
17:30:55 <netrik182> msvb-mob: you need to edit lines 9 and 13 to read only the numbers 51 and 25
17:30:56 <msvb-mob> carrington[m]: One banner is created but we were just awarded a lot more graphic real estate to use for such things as your and anhdres' sisterhood concept.
17:31:13 <netrik182> You can't have 66%... and such characters
17:31:22 <msvb-mob> Thank you netrik182!
17:31:42 <msvb-mob> We got the Golden package, no joke that's what it is really called.
17:32:02 <msvb-mob> Extra 7.2 Metres of graphic display just like the commercial folks love to paste with logos.
17:32:11 <netrik182> I would remove " " from the title and fix the date to December 2, 2021
17:32:22 <netrik182> Look at mine to have an idea
17:33:08 <msvb-mob> We'll probably advance the proposal before there is another meeting, in case anyone is particularly interested in influencing events we do now is the time to speak.
17:33:30 <rottenstonks> Advance the proposal?
17:33:40 <rottenstonks> There are a handful of comments you have not replied to, made by me.
17:33:44 <rottenstonks> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/274
17:33:57 <rottenstonks> One or two I tagged you, still no response to this day.
17:33:57 <netrik182> Those instructions are in https://ccs.getmonero.org/how-to-ccs/
17:34:19 <carrington[m]> Rotten, it looks like either your messages aren't getting through or you are still banned from the server
17:34:27 <msvb-mob> Maybe the question fell through the cracks rottenstocks, can you express it here clearly?
17:34:34 <msvb-mob> And I'll answer if you want one from me personally.
17:34:37 <rottenstonks> No. It is in the merge request.
17:34:45 <sgp_> The proposal pays the travel costs of 2 people (Michael + Alicia) and Monero tyvek wallets essentially
17:34:46 <rottenstonks> Please follow up in there.
17:34:49 <msvb-mob> Ill look again.
17:34:51 <carrington[m]> Wasn't it a temporary ban? Idk, but we should move on to the next proposal
17:35:05 <netrik182> They only show on IRC for me (monerologs.net)
17:35:27 <carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/276
17:35:30 <rottenstonks> Yeah, the bot banned me on Matrix, not IRC. Sorry, Matrix folks. Not my decision to have done that. :)
17:36:45 <carrington[m]> This is the draft proposal for the Monerokon 2022 event. There is a Monerokon -specific meeting right after this at 18:00 UTC in #monero-events:monero.social 
17:37:18 <carrington[m]> I think we can keep most discussion for that meeting, unless someone here cannot make that meeting and would like to comment?
17:38:10 <midipoet> yeah, i would like to say that i am not fond of the idea of adding all the speaker and travel costs into that CCS. 
17:38:33 <midipoet> and maybe that is something we should discuss here (as opposed to the planning meeting)
17:38:41 <netrik182> I'll try to attend the next meetting carrington 
17:39:29 <midipoet> the main reason is that i don't think its good to over-budget for the event costs AND overbudget/estimate for the travel/volunteer costs - especially in an evolving covid situation
17:40:14 <midipoet> and i especially don't like the idea of creating a milestone for the travel/volunteer costs - as that has price fluctuation risk
17:40:22 <carrington[m]> My issue is I don't know the scale of such a second proposal, so it's unclear to me if it's realistic to make up the difference by reducing the quoted costs for the first proposal
17:40:44 <sgp_> midipoet: Conversely though, under budgeting could be really really bad like it was last time
17:41:23 <midipoet> carrington[m]: i think that is fair, so we can perhaps guesstimate what that CCS-2 would like. i know sgp threw out a very rough estimate of €1000 per person attending (whether speaker or volunteer). so if we imagine 20 speakers and 5 volunteers?
17:42:02 <midipoet> sgp_: this is very true. but the two PMs that did that budget (that's there day job pretty much), and they were very keen not to have that happen (under-budget)
17:43:00 <carrington[m]> Well in that estimate the second proposal is half the size of the first 
17:43:03 <carrington[m]> Roughly
17:43:07 <midipoet> however, i am fairly certain that there is near 10k we can save off the first CCS (as we pay invoices/cut costs/make decisions, etc)
17:43:15 <midipoet> so it would be less again.
17:43:32 <sgp_> So the second proposal estimate is what, $20k?
17:43:38 <sgp_> Just rough idea
17:43:44 <midipoet> sgp_: roughly, sure
17:43:55 <midipoet> (i would hope less)
17:44:35 <sgp_> I'd rather you just tack that on to the first one tbh :)
17:44:36 <carrington[m]> I don't really see the complaint with having a second proposal. If donors don't want to support volunteer costs, that is sad for the volunteers but it doesn't necessarily mess everything up
17:44:51 <rottenstonks> sgp_: +1
17:45:30 <rottenstonks> if fear for volatility, add a buffer for the estimated expenses. milestones are there for a reason. set one for the most important matters and a second one for speakers & volunteers costs.
17:46:07 <midipoet> rottenstonks: i don't want to do a buffer - especially as we are in a relatively hostile market for XMR 
17:46:14 <midipoet> imagine is Kraken delisted from Europe/US?
17:46:23 <midipoet> what would happen to price?
17:46:38 <carrington[m]> But I'm also not against having one larger request with rollover into other Monerokons
17:46:41 <rottenstonks> i don't know and that is a tangent.
17:47:06 <midipoet> i don't see why splitting the CCS into two is such a bad idea 
17:47:06 <carrington[m]> Anyway we should try and fit in the newest proposal and open ideas time
17:47:12 <rottenstonks> if there's extra money it could get sent back to general fund.
17:47:20 <carrington[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/277
17:47:33 <carrington[m]> Here is elizabeth 's proposal for ETH-XMR atomic swaps
17:47:41 <rottenstonks> elizabeth[m]: got any comments on this?
17:48:06 <midipoet> rottenstonks: sure, we can do that. but then we are probably going to have near a €100k proposal (if you include the safety/price/fluctuation buffer)
17:48:56 <carrington[m]> (Sorry I am moving through these quickly, but we have an unusually large number of proposals and conversations can of course continue here afterwards or in the CCS comment sections)
17:49:11 <msvb-mob> This will result in flames at me, but I want to say what incredible venue options are up for discussion in the next hour, that it indirectly proves staff planning (and the CCS for it) are quite active and competent.
17:49:15 <rottenstonks> i personally prefer a single proposal and break it into two or three milestones. apparently, i am not the only one consdering this.
17:49:25 <Rucknium[m]> ETH<>XMR atomic swaps are very important. Monero continues to face threats of delisting in centralized exchanges. And ETH has "DeFi".
17:49:41 <Rucknium[m]> Or DEXes, rather. DeFi too, I guess.
17:50:07 <netrik182> I see no problem of two proposals if the need be midipoet 
17:51:01 <msvb-mob> Pretty cool if elizabeth[m] appears, we have not heard from her before have we?
17:51:07 <msvb-mob> Or him.
17:51:15 <elizabeth[m]> I'm here for any questions 
17:52:13 <carrington[m]> It would be incredible if easy atomic swaps were possible for users into multiple coins. I see that Farcaster (XMR-BTC swaps) is nearly ready for release
17:52:46 <msvb-mob> elizzabeth[m]: You're supposed to copy the entire (except for metadata) text in the MR description. So we can read and review easily.
17:52:48 <monero-guides[m]> what exactly is the incentive to swap xmr with eth? woudn't it be very expensive?
17:52:54 <midipoet> yeah, i think nearly everybody supports atomic swaps
17:53:30 <netrik182> For the record: I support elizabeth's proposal 
17:53:35 <Rucknium[m]> elizabeth: Practically speaking, at the end of this CCS, how easy will it be for a noobish user to execute a swap, all things considered?
17:53:42 <carrington[m]> It gives XMR holders access to the ETH ecosystem
17:53:53 <carrington[m]> Without trusted third parties
17:54:13 <elizabeth[m]> monero-guides[m]: it would be with the current implementation, but there are a few milestones in the proposal that should greater reduce the costs. I'd also like to deploy it on L2 as well as L1 
17:54:23 <sgp_> This proposal should be moved yesterday
17:54:27 <elizabeth[m]> * it would be with the current implementation, but there are a few milestones in the proposal that should greatly reduce the costs. I'd also like to deploy it on L2 as well as L1 
17:54:30 <Rucknium[m]> monero-guides: Users are going to swap to the cheap EVM-compatible chain, smartBCH 😉
17:55:26 <msvb-mob> I'm trying to read it because it sounds totally interesting sgp_ elizabeth[m], and I'm looking here but not finding it https://repo.getmonero.org/noot/ccs-proposals/
17:55:38 <monero-guides[m]> if it can be used in other chains, is it simple?
17:55:40 <elizabeth[m]> * it would be with the current implementation, but there are a few milestones in the proposal that should greatly reduce the costs. I'd also like it to be deployed on L2 as well as L1 
17:56:06 <elizabeth[m]> msvb-mob: it's here https://repo.getmonero.org/noot/ccs-proposals/-/blob/master/noot-eth-xmr-atomic-swap.md
17:56:29 <sgp_> elizabeth[m]: By L2 do you mean Arbitrum?
17:56:36 <elizabeth[m]> monero-guides[m]: yes, it should be simple to deploy on any EVM based chain
17:56:59 <msvb-mob> Thanks elizabeth[m], found it now.
17:57:09 <monero-guides[m]> it would be nice if the finished product had wrapping and a bow for use else where
17:57:18 <monero-guides[m]> in that case
17:57:41 <elizabeth[m]> sgp_: probably any L2 :p 
17:58:00 <elizabeth[m]> monero-guides[m]: do you mean steps for easily deploying it? 
17:58:27 <monero-guides[m]> yep, an option for those who don't care about the eth ecosystem
17:59:28 <elizabeth[m]> yep, I can add steps/documentation for that
17:59:54 <msvb-mob> Totally off topic, but this is the kind of expert information perfect for Monerokon. And noot/elizabeth is not on carrington[m]'s cryptpad.
18:00:36 <carrington[m]> There is a meeting in #monero-events:monero.social  starting now, so I will end the meeting for the purposes of logs here. 
18:01:09 <carrington[m]> The list of potential speakers is something I need to work on more (others are welcome to add to it or reach out)
18:01:25 <carrington[m]> I'll make sure to add comments on each proposal and I encourage others to do the same
18:01:31 <carrington[m]> Thanks for coming all!
18:01:50 <msvb-lab> Thanks a lot Keiji[m] and carrington[m] for an excellent meeting.
18:01:51 <msvb-lab> Cool.
18:02:07 <elizabeth[m]> thank you! 
18:02:09 <sgp_> Ty Carrington!!!
18:02:23 <monero-guides[m]> please excuse me for not being available earlier. On the topic of our ccs, we recently completed the final draft of our proposal, which included some minor changes and the addition of a web site which is now live. We would be very glad for this to go through to the funding stage.
18:02:26 <Keiji[m]> It was all carrington this time around haha. Thanks and great job!
18:03:22 <netrik182> Yeah, thanks carrington 
18:04:26 <msvb-lab> Great meeting happening at #monero-events (in a different room) for whoever is still here and interested.
18:07:35 <xmrscott[m]> <carrington[m]> "Wasn't it a temporary ban? Idk..." <- Going by the backscroll that involves the mod bot, after being temp banned for blatantly violating Libera policy the temp ban was extended to perma for doing things during the temp like trying to dox members of the greater privacy community like Calyx contributors. Given doxing was involved and this is a privacy community, odds of that being lifted for future meetings, etc are
18:07:35 <xmrscott[m]> slim.
18:11:07 <rottenstonks> Haha, I didn't dox any Calyx contributors xmrscott[m]. That is a lie. Mamushi Droid is a reseller of Pixel devices running CalyxOS, FYI.
18:11:28 <rottenstonks> I also did not, ever, dox anyone. So both claims are wrong.
18:42:55 <msvb-lab> By the way, I was wrong about noot/elizabeth not being on carrington's speaking candidate list. They are there.
18:59:21 <atomfried[m]> has someone here heard about log4shell? holy shit https://blog.malwarebytes.com/exploits-and-vulnerabilities/2021/12/log4j-zero-day-log4shell-arrives-just-in-time-to-ruin-your-weekend/
19:39:19 <quartz[m]> Yes, I heard about it a couple hours after it was public- some minecraft friends were wreaking havoc with it
19:40:04 <quartz[m]> probably 2b2t and related servers burning down the internet as usual
20:21:08 <escapethe3ra[m]> https://www.monero.observer/roguemaven-shares-spec-tails-like-monero-ilaro-linux-os/
21:26:21 <sgp_> https://reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/re95dh/new_magic_monero_fund_expectations_pages_for/
21:26:30 <sgp_> I made 2 dedicated pages to help people understand what the expectations are for Voters and Committee Members
21:31:38 <sgp_> elizabeth: the Monero CCS is definitely a good funding route, but let me know if a MAGIC Grants fundraising initiative would be easier for you. We can protect you with a contract, get donors tax deductibility, and send you a check or XMR. MAGIC Grants is a 501(c)(3) public charity that can give grants to improve the Monero ecosystem
22:35:25 * gnuteardrops[m] uploaded an image: (29KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/OfxIGuRgVxnRAPMUELtDSTit/monero-holiday-gift-card-400x300.png >
22:35:27 <gnuteardrops[m]> Feedback welcome
22:49:08 <Torr_> gnuteardrops[m]: Make the "with love" text have the size as the "amount".
22:50:02 <Torr_> Could u paint the upper green line to Monero's orange?
23:09:00 <Torr_> Sorta like this: https://0x0.st/-F9g.png
23:25:42 <gnuteardrops[m]> Done
23:26:00 <gnuteardrops[m]> https://monero.graphics
23:26:28 <gnuteardrops[m]> added an orange color scheme available for download
23:29:39 <Torr_> gnuteardrops[m]: Great graphics buddy.
23:30:56 <gnuteardrops[m]> Thanks! Feel free to use them.
23:31:52 <Torr_> o/