04:23:33 <fundiswithsifu[m> How is RingCt compared to zk stark?
04:23:33 <fundiswithsifu[m> Advantage, disadvantage, difference 
05:23:52 <selsta> fundiswithsifu[m: zkstark isn't used in production yet as far as I know
07:07:40 <kinghat[m]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGV3SqprNz4
11:46:51 <bridgerton[m]> <Veemo> why do people always say bitcoin is censorship resistant when its not
11:47:21 <coxring> Veemo what makes you think it is not censorship resistant? I am all ears.
11:48:41 <monerobull[m]> Miners can censor blocks if they want to
11:49:16 <spacekitty420[m]> it's not cause tainted coins are a thing basically and then exchanges can be like locking your funds and stealing your coins, also what ^ just said
11:49:36 <bridgerton[m]> <Veemo> ^
11:49:47 <coxring> Tainted coins are irrelevant to how the protocol works. That is as short-sighted as it can get.
11:50:07 <coxring> If you have any "tainted" BTC, please send it my way, so I can prove that your half-assed assessment is utter crap.
11:50:20 <monerobull[m]> And since miners are mostly registered companies, government can actually just tell them to start censoring whenever they want
11:50:31 <bridgerton[m]> <Veemo> i dont have any btc cause i dont believe in it
11:50:35 <coxring> If you do not want to speak nonsense, please think twice before you type bullshit.
11:51:56 <spacekitty420[m]> https://news.bitcoin.com/marathon-mines-first-ofac-compliant-bitcoin-block/
11:52:21 <coxring> So what? Is the entirety of the bitcoin network hashrate "OFAC compliant"?
11:52:38 <spacekitty420[m]> could be
11:52:38 <coxring> Again, source OFAC-blacklisted UTXOs and by all means send them to me.
11:52:53 <coxring> Could is not a fact, could is a half-assed criticism. Do better.
11:53:13 <spacekitty420[m]> through more regulation, it could become the majority of nethash so only "clean" blocks being mined
11:53:33 <coxring> The same regulation Monero advocates for so it doesn't get delisted from KYC/AML CEXs?
11:53:36 <spacekitty420[m]> bitcoin literally can be outlaw
11:53:46 <coxring> This one? https://www.complyfirst.org/
11:56:27 <spacekitty420[m]> 🤷‍♀️
11:56:29 <spacekitty420[m]> https://www.perkinscoie.com/images/content/2/3/v7/237411/Perkins-Coie-LLP-White-Paper-AML-Regulation-of-Privacy-enablin.pdf
11:56:52 <spacekitty420[m]> ```We conclude that privacy coins protect legitimate individual and commercial privacy interests and that existing financial regulations sufficiently address the AML issues that privacy coins present.```
11:56:53 <spacekitty420[m]> ```Not only do privacy coins provide public benefits that substantially outweigh their risks, existing AML regulations properly and sufficiently cover those risks, providing a proven framework for combatting money laundering and related crimes.```
11:56:56 <coxring> https://a.uguu.se/AhcwPphY.jpg
11:57:46 <coxring> Yeah, yeah. Go shill Monero's view key to KYC/AML CEXs so NgU and mass adoption can still occur. God forbid we just roll KYC-free moving forward.
11:58:09 <coxring> BTW, individual who claimed bitcoin is not censorship resistant seems very silent. :)
11:58:34 <nikg83[m]> coxring: You can’t block tx on monero, as address are not known to miners 
11:58:46 <coxring> nikg83[m]: So what?
11:59:13 <nikg83[m]> coxring: So there is no way to be compliant in terms of what btc miners have to be 
11:59:14 <coxring> Do you not understand the "blocking" on BTC happens exclusively if you touch a KYC/AML on-ramp because they are in bed with chainaylisis et. al.?
11:59:31 <coxring> That is completely different from claiming Bitcoin is not censorship resistant, when it factually is.
11:59:51 <nikg83[m]> coxring: Yes btc is not censorship resistant 
11:59:51 <coxring> Keep living in your own biased bubble y'all. Waste of time.
11:59:59 <coxring> Ok, join the ignore list.
12:00:49 <monerobull[m]> It is technically possible to censor transactions on a miner level and it's not that unthinkable it could become a requirement for registered miners in the Future.
12:01:07 <nikg83[m]> If 51% of hashrate goes to compliance blocks only, it will lead to a new chain ?
12:01:43 <monerobull[m]> No it just means you'll get your blocked transactions 50% slower
12:02:13 <bridgerton[m]> <Veemo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrHsFZBab4U im just gonna leave this here. its clear your mind will not be changed and arguing online is a waste of time. give it  a watch
12:02:23 <coxring> No.
12:02:37 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: Won’t the miners ignore those non compliant blocks ?
12:02:42 <spacekitty420[m]> coxring: nothing is censorship resistant
12:02:42 <spacekitty420[m]> hosted full nodes could be like being made illegal or somethin u know
12:02:42 <spacekitty420[m]> so isp be like sending notices to people that do host them to shut them down before taking it further
12:02:42 <spacekitty420[m]> vps providers can be like not allowing full node hosting cause then they're the ones that risking getting that love letter from an alphabet agency or somethin somethin
12:02:46 <coxring> Lol, sharing Mental Outlaw's content... Explains a lot.
12:03:02 <monerobull[m]> nikg83[m]: If they abandon non compliant blocks then yes
12:03:36 <monerobull[m]> But they don't need 51% for that, you could spin up *Compliant BTC* right now with a single pc
12:04:26 <nikg83[m]> Matter of time blockstream releases a compliant node 😅
12:04:56 <monerobull[m]> Isn't the whole liquid thing already kyced?
12:05:18 <nikg83[m]> monerobull[m]: No idea haven’t looked into that 
12:05:43 <monerobull[m]> I believe it's aimed at institutions so not that important really
12:06:38 <fundiswithsifu[m> monerobull[m]: Not 100%
12:06:38 <fundiswithsifu[m> Btc has bisq
12:06:45 <fundiswithsifu[m> Just majority
12:06:52 <monerobull[m]> Huh
12:07:02 <monerobull[m]> I don't understand what you are trying to sau
12:07:06 <monerobull[m]> s/sau/say/
12:07:12 <coxring> Bisq, mining at home, local meetups, localcryptos, Bitcoin ATMs...
12:07:26 <coxring> Really, Monero community is filled with half-assed biases that are just wrong. Simple as day.
12:07:42 <monerobull[m]> coxring: Your P2P transactions can still be blocked by miners
12:08:23 <monerobull[m]> Government could just say "all bisq transactions are on the sanctions list now" 
12:09:03 <fundiswithsifu[m> monerobull[m]: Coin join
12:09:07 <monerobull[m]> Regulated miners + Chainalysis
12:09:14 <monerobull[m]> fundiswithsifu[m: Won't be allowed
12:09:39 <monerobull[m]> If the literal chain is being censored, you can't do shit
12:10:13 <spacekitty420[m]> coxring: bitcoin atms literally just made illegal in the uk like yesterday or so
12:10:30 <spacekitty420[m]> mining got made illegal in china
12:10:51 <spacekitty420[m]> bisq can be an issue, literally getting tainted coins and then no one accepting your coins from there
12:10:56 <coxring> Ah, ok. Since UK banned bitcoin ATMs then bitcoin is ded!!!! Much like it is ded because there is a compliant mining pool!!!
12:11:13 <coxring> Didn't I just lecture you "tainted" coins is a dumb argument?
12:11:41 <fundiswithsifu[m> Tainted coin is real concern i think
12:11:42 <monerobull[m]> coxring: we are not saying anyone can stop your BTC right now but the existence of an onchain compliant block should be all you need to understand BTC could become very locked down in the future
12:11:57 <coxring> Not for me. :)
12:12:00 <monerobull[m]> How
12:12:17 <monerobull[m]> If your transactions are blocked on the chain. What are you going to do
12:12:48 <monerobull[m]> You can't mine a block yourself since it will be orphaned by the compliant miners
12:13:14 <monerobull[m]> You will literally not be able to make transactions the regulators deem bad
12:14:47 <fundiswithsifu[m> coxring: U don’t use any centralized exchange? They may seize your tainted coin the second you send it
12:14:53 <coxring> No.
12:14:56 <coxring> I do not.
12:15:08 <coxring> I also do not go through any KYC/AML verification process.
12:15:18 <coxring> I do not use any CEX either. :)
12:15:18 <monerobull[m]> There is BIG money in BTC mining, those guys will make sure the public will keep using their chain, even if people keep a non compliant one running
12:15:32 <fundiswithsifu[m> Solely bisq?
12:16:11 <spacekitty420[m]> <monerobull[m]> "Your P2P transactions can..." <- ^
12:16:18 <monerobull[m]> coxring: still haven't told me how you will move your coins if miners refuse to include your transactions in their blocks
12:17:24 <fundiswithsifu[m> monerobull[m]: Mining is probabilistic, if some hashing power don’t comply with regulations. His tx will pass
12:17:30 <monerobull[m]> Nope
12:17:38 <monerobull[m]> Non compliant block will be abandoned
12:18:20 <monerobull[m]> As soon as compliant miners make up a considerable amount of hashrate they will do that
12:18:50 <monerobull[m]> And since most hashrate is now based in the US, US laws will apply to all of them
12:19:11 <fundiswithsifu[m> Hash rate can flee
12:19:48 <monerobull[m]> Even people mining with stolen power will be compliant since they don't get rewards for finding a block that's getting abandoned
12:20:02 <spacekitty420[m]> fundiswithsifu[m: it did flee from china because they couldnt mine at all anymore but in the case of still allowing mining, most will probably just comply and get their paycheck tbh
12:20:08 <coxring> Probabilistic he says. lmao.
12:20:44 <monerobull[m]> monerobull[m]: coxring: 
12:21:35 <spacekitty420[m]> coxring: she*
12:21:35 <spacekitty420[m]> but yeah, we did see that happening already for 2 years, most will comply for that paycheck cause fighting for their values is just too much of a bother, so yeah, most will probably just comply
12:21:58 <coxring> so yeah just yea just yeah just yeah.
12:22:09 <monerobull[m]> That's literally you
12:22:15 <monerobull[m]> monerobull[m]: .
12:22:28 <monerobull[m]> <monerobull[m]> "coxring: still haven't told me..." <- .
12:23:20 <monerobull[m]> It will be exactly like centralized exchanges, miners will have to follow regulations
12:24:16 <monerobull[m]> Kraken CEO himself always says he can't protect you and you need to get your coins off the exchange
12:24:26 <monerobull[m]> It will be just like that for miners
12:25:27 <monerobull[m]> What do you think the fines for not complying with sanctions imposed by the US are? I doubt mining farm operators will go to jail over this.
12:25:31 <spacekitty420[m]> maxis just coping be like tbh
12:25:35 <monerobull[m]> * operators will want to go to
12:25:49 <monerobull[m]> He still doesn't have an answer
12:27:30 <coxring> Imagine unironically thinking _I_ am a Bitcoin maxi.
12:27:32 <monerobull[m]> I'm sure 10 years ago no one would have believed you when you told em in the future 99% of all Bitcoin is bought on exchanges where you have to submit a picture of yourself holding a driver's license
12:27:50 <coxring> Just hilarious. Maxis on both sides are _hilarious_.
12:29:09 <monerobull[m]> Shit changed so much in a few years and we got coxring over here unable to comprehend how this relatively small step could be taken and all his efforts to avoid KYC get turned useless
12:29:23 <monerobull[m]> We HAVE
12:29:29 <monerobull[m]> Technology to do it
12:31:15 <monerobull[m]>  We HAVE 
12:31:25 <monerobull[m]> Seen compliant blocks on chain
12:32:10 <monerobull[m]> It is possible to censor transactions on Bitcoin and thus the logical next step is forcing registered miners to filter the chain
12:32:25 <monerobull[m]> Which will turn into non compliant miners turning unprofitable
12:32:40 <monerobull[m]> Which turns the whole chain compliant
12:32:57 <spacekitty420[m]> right, it's not like that's some sci-fi scenario or somethin, it already happening and now it just has to keep going in that direction, it already is getting fucked over by censorship so how the fuck still being all like it cant be censored while it already is and the next step it will fully be
12:33:31 <monerobull[m]> Conclusion: coxring: is being hella ignorant
12:34:11 <unscottable[m]> so true 
12:34:55 <unscottable[m]> i investigated layer 2 on btc a bit more and im realizing as well that that cannot be a solution either as it opens up more weak points 
12:36:10 <monerobull[m]> There could essentially be a whitelist for transactions allowed on the BTC chain, which would make second layers as a solution to avoid censorship basically impossible
12:36:20 <unscottable[m]> luke smith had a great stream recently on this, problems with BTC long term. there is quite a few 
12:37:13 <coxring> Luke Smith and Mental Outlaw are a couple of half-assed jackasses.
12:37:20 <coxring> No wonder you are using them to defend your point.
12:37:45 <coxring> I do not use 2nd layer solutions. L-BTC and LN are shitcoins.
12:37:57 <coxring> Coinjoin with whirlpool and call it quits. On-chain only.
12:38:10 <spacekitty420[m]> layer 2, segwit and all that is just bullshit too... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/f69ed809bcc3ecb0c09ef127e5816c307cc781d1)
12:38:30 <unscottable[m]> coinjoin users have had consequences that have been documented... 
12:38:34 <unscottable[m]> already
12:38:37 <coxring> Such as?
12:38:50 <coxring> Are you going to talk about some KYC/AML CEX freezing funds, again?
12:38:54 <fundiswithsifu[m> If l2 is bad, bitcoin is hopeless
12:39:04 <coxring> Are you mentally challenged or you just have a reading comprehension problem?
12:39:06 <bridgerton[m]> <Veemo> imagine needing coin mixers to stay private
12:39:14 <fundiswithsifu[m> Very slow transparent
12:39:14 <fundiswithsifu[m> Expensive 
12:39:23 <spacekitty420[m]> fundiswithsifu[m: the more time goes for bitcoin, the more it becomes hopeless yea
12:39:26 <unscottable[m]> https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/fungibility-graveyard/
12:39:34 <spacekitty420[m]> every year is a year closer to btc's death
12:39:40 <coxring> Lol. Seth... lol.
12:40:14 <monerobull[m]> coxring: Government mandated on chain censorship
12:41:37 <monerobull[m]> This whole discussion is stupid and only continues because coxring ignores any and all points he can't argue against
12:42:19 <monerobull[m]> And instead results to passive aggressive comments of no substance
12:42:19 <unscottable[m]> https://youtu.be/31eI9UD83PY
12:42:33 <unscottable[m]> really good discussion on the issues with btc long term
12:42:57 <spacekitty420[m]> unscottable[m]: "lol kevin wad" incoming
12:43:07 <coxring> Indeed.
12:43:28 <unscottable[m]>  cope and seethe 
12:43:58 <coxring> Been seething since 2009. Poor public blockchain shitcoin. :'(
12:44:14 <coxring> Be back later, dumping all my BTC for XMR. Moon soon.
12:44:23 <unscottable[m]> based
12:44:38 <spacekitty420[m]> 🚀 🌘
12:44:59 <unscottable[m]> to be fair i do keep some money in both, i just have a majority in xmr 
12:45:59 <unscottable[m]> also layer 2 is fun to use to pay for stuff.. ive been buying things with it and its very fast 
12:46:46 <unscottable[m]> ive never really usee crypto as just a index to hope for gains but actually using it as a currency 
12:47:06 <unscottable[m]> ive been paying my cellphone bill for over a year now exclusively with crypto 
12:47:12 <unscottable[m]> s/usee/used/
12:47:18 <unscottable[m]> s/usee/used/, s/a/an/
12:47:33 <coxring> What site or service? Bitrefill? Coincards?
12:48:25 <unscottable[m]> those sites and others 
12:48:42 <coxring> Cool beans.
12:49:17 <spacekitty420[m]> doing a single btc transaction seems like wayyyy too much of a bother tbh, aint doing that shit no more for awhile now
12:49:17 <spacekitty420[m]> am legit too retarded to figure how to proper output hygiene with btc or even just.. well xmr has dandelion++ and all that too
12:49:17 <spacekitty420[m]> like wtf if wanna do a single btc transaction gon do all those weird ass hops and it takes foreeever just for a single block, like, fuck that, aint using that shit
12:49:42 <coxring> Ahh, I am glad you admit your mental condition!
12:49:45 <coxring> Congratulations.
12:50:04 <spacekitty420[m]> never hided it LOL
12:50:19 <coxring> Cheers. 🍻🍻
12:52:35 <spacekitty420[m]> tbf, compared to AI, we all retarded
12:52:35 <spacekitty420[m]> and something thinking they aint retarded is just some other retard that might be more or less retarded as the next retard
12:53:04 <coxring> Hey, hey... careful with the R word... The monero Kliq does not approve it.
12:53:04 <spacekitty420[m]> people using btc do be retarded cause why in the flying fuck would someone ever go through all those retarded ass hops just for something as simple as just 1 transaction?
12:53:26 <spacekitty420[m]> well, as someone that do be retarded, am allowed to say it u know
12:53:28 <coxring> Yeah, you look up the r word on a dictionary and there is a 5000x5000 selfie of me right there.
12:53:37 <spacekitty420[m]> and since we all do be retarded, we all can say it :3
12:53:46 <spacekitty420[m]> o.o
12:53:47 <coxring> Cheers. 🍻🍻
12:54:18 <spacekitty420[m]> s/something/someone/
12:54:50 <unscottable[m]> AI is fake 
12:54:54 <unscottable[m]> and a spook 
12:54:56 <spacekitty420[m]> ur mom is fake
12:55:17 <unscottable[m]> you really dont like my mother 
12:55:18 <unscottable[m]> : (
12:55:27 <unscottable[m]> she bakes delicious cookies 
12:57:14 <M5ff38ajj[m]> <coxring> "Lol, sharing Mental Outlaw's..." <- His old videos are good though
13:42:53 <runfox[m]> they already have mit working on a way to make miners compliant with kyc:
13:42:54 <runfox[m]> https://petertodd.org/2016/mit-chainanchor-bribing-miners-to-regulate-bitcoin
13:55:06 <runfox[m]> <kinghat[m]> "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v..." <- what a shitshow. 
13:57:08 <coxring> runfox[m]: Yep. Already dumped all my BTC.
13:57:29 <coxring> Now I have 3 XMR more! Please, write another news on MSM claiming Bitcoin is dead and everyone should just flock to XMR.
13:57:41 <coxring> Make sure you do it through Kraken after submitting three different angles of your face. KYC so best!
13:57:42 <spacekitty420[m]> 🚀 🌘
13:57:46 <inlight> "why cyberspace isn't, and never be Nirvana"
13:57:50 <inlight> https://danknee.livejournal.com/160431.html
13:58:33 <runfox[m]> I don't think bitcoin is dead, it's just become hedge fund coin. 
13:58:55 <coxring> Right, settlement layer, hedge fund coin. The coin of the trillionaires. Monero is people's money!!!
13:59:08 <coxring> That's exactly where you start noticing Monero has been taken over by filthy commies.
14:01:16 <runfox[m]> you can not overthrow the fiat banking system with aml/kyc, sorry bro
14:01:46 <coxring> Another KYC/AML cuck.
14:01:49 <spacekitty420[m]> coxring: isnt that the whole thing tho? with no premine, no ICO, aiming to be the most decentralized through asic resistance and whatnot?
14:01:49 <spacekitty420[m]> what's wrong with being a filthy commie when it comes to cryptocurrency?
14:02:00 <coxring> What exchange has the most liquidity in Monero? Kraken. Is it KYC/AML or not? runfox[m]
14:02:08 <spacekitty420[m]> * asic resistance,, *  P2Pool and whatnot?
14:02:19 <spacekitty420[m]> binance i think
14:02:22 <coxring> spacekitty420[m]: Join the ignore list.
14:02:23 <coxring> Bye.
14:02:24 <inlight> hi
14:02:36 <spacekitty420[m]> coxring: haveno on the work tho
14:02:58 <runfox[m]> coxring: not sure, I have been using fixed floatand it seems alright, they don't ask for aml/kyc, it's fast, market price, etc
14:03:04 <inlight> what is the circumvention measure,  when government ban exchanges ?
14:03:17 <coxring> runfox[m]: Poloniex last: 0.004593 BTC on 6.33 BTC volume | Bitfinex last: 0.004591 on 1655.72 XMR volume | Kraken last: 0.004603 on 3953.99 XMR volume | Binance last: 0.004597 on 319.77 BTC volume
14:03:24 <inlight> it is designed to be censorship resistant, 
14:03:27 <coxring> 3953.99 XMR volume on Kraken.
14:03:37 <inlight> but if people won't be able to get xmr, they won't be able to use it
14:03:45 <inlight> it will focus of un-ease of use. 
14:03:53 <coxring> So do not come in here in your high horse talking about BTc being all KYC/AML, because the exchange with the vast majority of liquidity in Monero, is KYC/AML. runfox[m]
14:03:56 <inlight> declining mass adoption.
14:04:21 <spacekitty420[m]> coxring: what's the ignore list? u cant handle arguments so u being all like autisticly screeching to mute?
14:04:25 <coxring> inlight: Mass adoption at what cost? KYC/AMLing everything? Fuck that.
14:04:45 <inlight> what is the measure,  if government bans exchanges ?
14:04:51 <spacekitty420[m]> coxring: have u heard about haveno?
14:04:51 <runfox[m]> coxring: it is all aml/kyc, it can be tracked and traced and mining is about to be censored by chain anchor, the MIT project. BTC has failed. 
14:04:53 <inlight> how will people get monero, common people ?
14:05:05 <coxring> runfox[m]: another one bites the dust. Join the ignore list, fella.
14:05:07 <coxring> Cheers.
14:05:21 <runfox[m]> inlight: peer to peer exchanges and atomic swaps
14:05:46 <spacekitty420[m]> coxring: autisticly screeching muting eryone that aint a bitcoin maxi on a monero channel LOOOOL
14:05:49 <inlight> runfox[m]: atmoic swap is one thing, yeah sure, but p2p exchanges ? 
14:06:08 <inlight> if government want to do crackdown, like their agent is sent money to bankk and arrest you for using exchanges
14:06:11 <inlight> it won't work 
14:06:19 <inlight> since exchange is not anonymous and private.
14:06:23 <runfox[m]> inlight: haveno is like bisq (forked) and localmonero is like localbitcoins w/o aml/kyc
14:07:35 <inlight> like some country are refusing to accept cryptocurrency so they can keep doing surveillance.
14:07:42 <inlight> bitcoin, monero, etc 
14:08:00 <inlight> the network is censorship resistant, so they will attack on exchanges and ban them.
14:08:11 <runfox[m]> Bitcoin maxis have not come to terms that the value of bitcoin was rooted in its use on the darkweb illegal markets. after many law enforcement takedowns of darweb markets, because of bitcoin's achilles heal of privacy flaws, dark web uses xmr, and it is the actual true crypto. 
14:08:34 <spacekitty420[m]> inlight: that's the point of havenoDEX tho, exchange that do be censorship resistant
14:08:37 <inlight> for p2p exchange-  they could send their sellers (agent) on those exchange and arrrest if you made deal with their agents,  for buying cryptocurrency
14:08:59 <inlight> spacekitty420[m]: ^ 
14:10:32 <inlight> ??
14:10:55 <nioc> rotten putting people on the ignore list again?  lol
14:12:26 <spacekitty420[m]> inlight: there would still be legit buyer/sellers on there with reputation system and whatnot
14:12:26 <spacekitty420[m]> once u made a trade that worked out, you can stick to that buyer/seller for future trades
14:12:26 <spacekitty420[m]> like, sure 1 gov can be like "we gon go undercover" but wtf they gon go undercover in countries where it's not illegal?
14:12:26 <spacekitty420[m]> Dr. Kim made a great point on the prison dilemma thingy that basically, it cant be banned worldwide cause if 1 country being it legal then that 1 country would actually profit soooo much
14:20:41 <spacekitty420[m]> <coxring> "runfox: Poloniex last: 0...." <- so apparently i got on the ignore list for sayin a true statement that he even confirmed my statement... 319 BTC is something like 60k monero so binance is indeed the exchange that has the most liquidity in monero
14:20:44 <spacekitty420[m]> oh well
14:28:17 <inlight> spacekitty420[m]: well, you can't do p2p exchange if buyer and seller are in different country
14:28:45 <inlight> they can't accept your medium of payment or can they ?
14:30:58 <spacekitty420[m]> how so?... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/11be51d2716bd5cf4410c154a715c9f7a0855ca5)
14:32:19 <spacekitty420[m]> that's for the fiat on/off ramp
14:32:19 <spacekitty420[m]> cause p2p crypto to crypto, that's yet even an other story where it definitely shouldnt be an issue
14:33:13 <inlight> why this matrix link
14:33:28 <inlight> i mean-  crypto-fiat exchange 
14:33:40 <inlight> we can use  visa/mastecard (plastic money) 
14:34:24 <spacekitty420[m]> ezzocard.com ?
14:35:16 <inlight> or paysafecard
14:36:13 <spacekitty420[m]> idk what u mean by matrix link, maybe since u on irc my message was too long and got formated into a txt file link or somethin, whatever, irc for boomers hipsters, just switch to matrix already like jfc...
14:37:00 <inlight> im not even boomer
14:37:11 <spacekitty420[m]> well hipsters for sure
14:37:17 <inlight> neither hipster
14:37:24 <spacekitty420[m]> right...
14:37:38 <inlight> matrix is for noobs, who just know point and click
14:37:41 <spacekitty420[m]> do u even know any hipster saying that they do be hipster?
14:37:55 <inlight> yes many
14:38:25 <spacekitty420[m]> so u know hipsters eh
14:38:29 <spacekitty420[m]> u def one of them, just coping
14:39:56 <spacekitty420[m]> like the fuck is that, idk if libera set up that way but when it was on freenode that shit be like, u join irc, ur ip is leaked to the whole chat, how fucking retarded is that shit?
14:40:12 <spacekitty420[m]> then they gon be like "use a vpn" well, yeah sure, still kinda cringe
14:40:18 <spacekitty420[m]> then they be like "u a shield"
14:40:28 <spacekitty420[m]> and u be like "the fuck even is a shield"
14:40:44 <spacekitty420[m]> then its like "u gotta dm that dude that run freenode to ask for a shield"
14:40:48 <spacekitty420[m]> like the fuck????
14:40:50 <spacekitty420[m]> u know
14:41:19 <spacekitty420[m]> s/u/use/
14:42:17 <spacekitty420[m]> also  that droneBL bullshit by default
14:42:41 <spacekitty420[m]> so like, most of the time cant even access irc cause ip is blacklisted by that bullshit
14:42:52 <spacekitty420[m]> and ofc freenode be lazy af they didnt disable that droneBL
14:43:13 <spacekitty420[m]> libera prob the same shit tbh, prob lazy af and kept that shit enabled u know
14:46:15 <nioc> hi
14:46:20 <inlight> hi
14:46:34 <spacekitty420[m]> henlo
14:47:49 <inlight> 3~3~
15:17:38 <nioc> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNpQ4lCVIAMbJDH?format=jpg&name=small
15:30:11 <tottles_mcgee[m]> @nioc So basically Monero is privacy
15:30:28 <tottles_mcgee[m]> Even the FBI can't touch your transactions if you don't let them.
15:42:50 <spacekitty420[m]> cant the fbi just $5 wrench attack u till u tell them the priv key tho?
15:49:38 <fundiswithsifu[m> <spacekitty420[m]> "cant the fbi just $5 wrench..." <- Can't u just give them a wallet with 0.1 xmr and no other tx
15:52:28 <spacekitty420[m]> they prob would have setup an undercover operation sending fund to one of the address so they would most likely keep doing the wrench attack til having access to the wallet on which they know they sent funds to, maybe, idk
20:57:26 <fr33_yourself[m]> The BTC guy in here earlier was interesting.
20:59:48 <fr33_yourself[m]> There a variety of advantages BTC has over XMR. The primary reasons I usually hear from the BTC folk are that (1) More Monero code changes = Higher risks (2) Harder to detect an inflation bug. The remaining reasons are either obvious or less serious.
21:08:11 <coxring> Finally someone speaking some sense.
21:19:47 <fr33_yourself[m]> It's true that Bitcoin offers some better tradeoffs over Monero. They are different currencies and their properties can provide users different forms of utility.
21:20:30 <fr33_yourself[m]> I wonder what the risks of connecting and sending tx through a remote node are with Monero?
21:23:39 <nioc> yes more code changes, things actually improve
21:24:31 <nioc> sending using a remote node means they know your ip address
21:24:44 <fr33_yourself[m]> If memory serves me right there were/are certain attacks where the remote node one is connected to could (1) deny the transaction or (2) figure out which output was the true spend in a tx
21:24:57 <fr33_yourself[m]> nioc: I agree, but it is at least true to a marginal extent that more code churn implies greater risk to a monero holder than a bitcoin holder.
21:25:16 <nioc> risk of what?
21:25:21 <fr33_yourself[m]> nioc: Yes, but I thought there were other attacks they could do as well?
21:25:46 <fr33_yourself[m]> nioc: Any bug/issue in the code
21:26:18 <nioc> I am not sure of others, there was talk about possible large fees being charged 
21:26:29 <fr33_yourself[m]> nioc: The risk with bitcoin though is that by being so conservative it becomes obsolete and an asset that better serves the market is built
21:26:44 <fr33_yourself[m]> nioc: I thought I saw this as well, but this is relatively easy to spot
21:28:16 <nioc> any changes that could cause any serious issue is audited by a 3rd party, multiple 3rd parties 
21:28:46 <fr33_yourself[m]> There are tradeoffs between Monero and Bitcoin. One is not superior to the other in all ways. It will always be tradeoffs and people will find their way through the crypto space with time.
21:28:50 <fr33_yourself[m]> nioc: I'm a bit skeptical of this.
21:29:39 <fr33_yourself[m]> The reality is this: Monero's code is changed more therefore, even if only to a small or tiny extent, it carries a higher risk of a code bug than bitcoin
21:30:04 <fr33_yourself[m]> This is just the logical implication of changing / innovating more.
21:30:13 <nioc> higher ofc, meaningfully so?  IDK
21:30:35 <nioc> just use doge, they don't change.  :D
21:30:53 <fr33_yourself[m]> Exactly. That's I'm not a BTC maxi
21:30:55 <Torr> fr33_yourself[m]: No it doesn't. More frequent rewrites does not mean more bugs. That would only be the case if the new code was arbitrary, which is not the case.
21:31:13 <nioc> didn't think that you were
21:31:16 <nioc> :)
21:31:23 <fr33_yourself[m]> It is not arbritrary but human mistakes are a real thing
21:31:26 <jwinterm> https://cointelegraph.com/dogecoin-for-beginners/dogecoin-transition-from-proof-of-work-to-proof-of-stake-why-is-it-important
21:31:38 <nioc> jwinterm: WHAT
21:31:58 <Torr> fr33_yourself[m]: Humans are also the beings responsible for Bitcoin, so the same applies to them.
21:32:03 <jwinterm> are there not actual examples of critical vulnerabilities being introduced via hardfork in monero?
21:32:04 <fr33_yourself[m]> We have to grant the BTC maxi's at least some higher sense of code security, due to their conservative culture and lack of hard forks
21:32:24 <jwinterm> I think there are
21:32:28 <nioc> why don't they put dates on their articles jwinterm 
21:32:35 <fr33_yourself[m]> Torr: Monero's code is changed more therefore there is a higher (even if only fractions of a percent higher) risk of a bug.
21:32:36 <jwinterm> it's from february
21:32:49 <nioc> thx
21:32:55 <nioc> had no idea
21:33:07 <nioc> which Feb? 
21:33:24 <fr33_yourself[m]> jwinterm: I don't know. I'm glad that serious issues have been resolved by the Monero community in the past though. 
21:33:28 <jwinterm> this, supposedly will be done in 2022
21:34:15 <nioc> I imagine there are uses for a transparent chain 
21:35:27 <Torr> fr33_yourself[m]: Again, this is completely false. More changes does not equate to higher bug risk.
21:35:59 <nioc> you can't introduce new bugs if you don't make changes 
21:36:20 <jwinterm> Torr: that seems wrong
21:36:34 <jwinterm> far less changes + far more eyeballs on changes = less risk
21:36:51 <Torr> But by fixing bugs you are making a change. Also, by redesigning modules, you can not only eliminate individual bugs but entire bug classes.
21:36:55 <jwinterm> far less changes by itself for equal number of eyeballs also less risky
21:37:30 <Torr> No, it's not less risk. This is wrong due to the assumption that every change is equal.
21:38:29 <jwinterm> I'm pretty sure there was a bug introduced in bullet proofs that would have allowed people to mint monero undetected - literally the bug that everyone always throws in monero's face about undetectable supply inflation was introduced
21:38:31 <jwinterm> no?
21:40:03 <nioc> yes there is risk but how do you build and improve things>  Privacy is not a static thing  
21:40:15 <jwinterm> it was pre-bulletproof https://www.getmonero.org/2017/05/17/disclosure-of-a-major-bug-in-cryptonote-based-currencies.html
21:40:23 <jwinterm> and apparently not introduced by hardfork
21:40:23 <nioc> Changes will always need to be made
21:40:40 <nioc> to insure privacy
21:40:54 <jwinterm> but still fewer changes = more time for interested people to design and review changes = less risk
21:41:06 <jwinterm> it seems inarguable to me
21:41:22 <Torr> jwinterm: Again... This is totally false dude.
21:41:34 <jwinterm> ok
21:44:02 <jwinterm> really weird how this is on sports.yahoo.com https://sports.yahoo.com/monero-wallet-bug-causes-altex-110056433.html
21:44:09 <jwinterm> good old altex
21:50:48 <fr33_yourself[m]> <jwinterm> "far less changes + far more..." <- Yep. The degree of "less risk" is subject to debate though.
21:53:08 <fr33_yourself[m]> It is not deductively necessary that bug risk increases with code changes, but it is inductively inferred. 
21:53:35 <Torr> fr33_yourself[m]: No, it isn't.
21:53:39 <fr33_yourself[m]> I should clarify that I am comparing Monero and Bitcoin. 
21:53:46 <Torr> Still
21:55:02 <fr33_yourself[m]> Torr: Care to explain your reasoning? I have already explained that the more actions a human makes the greater the chance of making a mistake. In Gambling it is referred to as the Risk of Ruin.
21:55:57 <fr33_yourself[m]> It would be similar to betting everything you own on heads for a coin toss weighted 80% heads and 20% tails over multiple iterations.
21:56:45 <fr33_yourself[m]> The more iterations one does the more likely it becomes that the eventual low probability outcome occurs.
21:57:16 <Torr> fr33_yourself[m]: I already did: > No, it's not less risk. *This is wrong due to the assumption that every change is equal.*
21:58:11 <fr33_yourself[m]> I'm not saying a code bug is likely or probable or significantly more likely in Monero, rather that is marginally more likely in Monero than Bitcoin. The extent of this margin is something I can't fully grasp yet. I think it's fantastic that the Monero community puts out so many educational resources detailing how the code and protocol work. This decreases the likelihood of bugs.
21:59:33 <fr33_yourself[m]> Torr: Why should one believe that the chance of a bug in a Monero Comit vs a BTC Comit are different?
21:59:42 <Torr> A random code change is not the same as a code change to increase the quality of a module design. There is whole methodology in system's hardening called Proactive Security, which is based on that.
21:59:48 <fr33_yourself[m]> I do think the Monero Devs are smarter and on the whole the Monero community is superior in intellect and reasoning, than all other crypto projects.
22:00:31 <Torr> In that methodology, you have more changes and fewer bugs, because the intent to *prevent* them from appearing to begin with.
22:00:40 <Torr> is* to
22:01:59 <Torr> > Torr: Why should one believe that the chance of a bug in a Monero Comit vs a BTC Comit are different?
22:02:12 <fr33_yourself[m]> Torr: I am ignorant of this topic. I should research it some. If what you say is true, and this method of changing code is applied to Monero, then I will admit I was wrong.
22:04:29 <Torr> fr33_yourself[m]: Yup, you were.
22:05:16 <fr33_yourself[m]> Are you a Monero developer?
22:05:22 <Torr> Nope
22:06:12 <fr33_yourself[m]> Then what makes you believe this sort of design is implemented in Monero? 
22:07:55 <Torr> It's not a "design", it's a method of development. Designs come out of it.
22:09:38 <fr33_yourself[m]> ^ Sure, so what leads you to believe this method of development is utilized in Monero?
22:10:49 <fr33_yourself[m]> serpent: https://masteringmonero.com/book/Mastering%20Monero%20First%20Edition%20by%20SerHack%20and%20Monero%20Community.pdf
22:11:19 <fr33_yourself[m]> Regarding wallet setup there are some relatively basic tutorials on YouTube if memory serves me right
22:11:30 <Torr> fr33_yourself[m]: By looking at the source changes, how they are implemented, why they are implement, etc. '-
22:14:06 <coxring> <fr33_yourself[m]> There are tradeoffs between Monero and Bitcoin. One is not superior to the other in all ways. It will always be tradeoffs and people will find their way through the crypto space with time.
22:14:06 <coxring> based.
22:14:33 <fr33_yourself[m]> Torr: Alright, at the moment I'm too ignorant and stupid to parse the source changes, but I hope to get to that level soon. Are you a software dev in general?
22:15:00 <fr33_yourself[m]> Torr, do you know C++?
22:15:19 <Torr> Yup
22:15:40 <coxring> <jwinterm> far less changes + far more eyeballs on changes = less risk
22:15:41 <coxring> yeap.
22:16:01 <Torr> coxring: Noap :D
22:16:37 <coxring> jwinterm: imagine a random Torr weirdo rebutting someone who has been around since 2014.
22:16:45 <coxring> some of these people don't even know who we are, do they?
22:16:56 <coxring> check bio, nitwit.
22:17:01 <Torr> coxring: Imagine resorting to name calling due to lack of arguments.
22:17:05 <coxring> Ignored.
22:17:50 <coxring> anyways, thanks for reviving the discussion fr33_yourself[m] xo.
22:30:44 <nioc> yeah just ignore coxring aka rotten
22:30:49 <fr33_yourself[m]> <Torr> "Yup" <- Gotcha. It makes sense that you can read the source code and changes then. Thanks for taking the time to introduce a new concept to me.
22:31:09 <Torr> fr33_yourself[m]: Thumbs up
22:42:53 <spacekitty420[m]> how much rotten do be retarded, the argument about more changes = more risk to introduce a bug can be true to some extent
22:42:54 <spacekitty420[m]> for example, ravencoin
22:44:15 <spacekitty420[m]> like, couple years ago or so, there was an inside job from someone in the team that created an alt account on github to introduce an inflation bug in ravencoin, ofc the pull request been accepted and they were able to print millions over something like 5 fucking months
22:45:07 <spacekitty420[m]> then that was still even more retarded when the fix was introduced cause it's been done through closed source binaries which... /facepalm
22:47:53 <spacekitty420[m]> in monero's case there's already way more eyes on the code and malicious code would have a harder time getting through like this, still not impossible and my :tinfoil: ass do expect an undercover job from the glowies some day or at least they would try to infiltrate the team to introduce shits like that
22:49:35 <fr33_yourself[m]> spacekitty420[m]: Yeah infiltration, pushing further back into TOR via bans and regulation, and bug exploits seem to be the highest threats from glowies. The last of which is less likely.
23:16:15 <Torr> spacekitty420[m]: The point is not that more changes never bring more risk, but rather that you can't judge the security impact just with the change rate. There are many different ways to modify source code.