07:00:18 -xmr-pr- [meta] rbrunner7 opened issue #680: Monero Dev Meeting: v15 network upgrade - Sat 2 April 2022 @ 17:00 UTC
07:00:18 -xmr-pr- > https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/680
08:15:18 -xmr-pr- [css-proposals] mj opened pull request #299: SolOptXMR - Solar Optimal mining of XMR
08:15:18 -xmr-pr- > https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/299
11:23:46 <mj-xmr[m]> <xmr-pr> "[css-proposals] mj opened pull..." <- This is a part time proposal for endor00 and me, that is meant to automate the energy consumption from solar panels to spread it optimally across house's demand and Monero mining from the excess energy produced.
11:24:45 <mj-xmr[m]> You might know endor00 from #xmrmine:matrix.org
11:54:05 <nikg83[m]> mj-xmr: imho better spend your time on core project than something distant
11:54:59 <mj-xmr[m]> nikg83: note, that I'd be spending a tiny bit of time per week on this and the deadline is spread across 6 months.
11:55:13 <mj-xmr[m]> And why do you think it's distant?
12:07:10 <mj-xmr[m]> Regarding the time: I'm doing major steps here, like selling my rental business to be able to spend more time on software dev. So I personally don't see that time problem. Also there are limits as to how many open branches I may have. Some are even reviewed yet still unmerged. Currently I have 25 open branches. If I have 50, it won't help the Core either >_<
12:07:50 <ZombieMaster[m]> mj-xmr: I think it's a great idea
12:08:13 <mj-xmr[m]> <nikg83[m]> "mj-xmr: imho better spend your..." <- Anyway, thanks for sharing your opinion
12:08:31 <nikg83[m]> <mj-xmr[m]> "And why do you think it's..." <- Solar power calculator is nothing close to monero 
12:09:00 <mj-xmr[m]> It might become, once power gets scarce in the coming years.
12:09:20 <mj-xmr[m]> I mean, you still want to mine Monero in such conditions.
12:13:48 <mj-xmr[m]> My vision of the near future is outlined in the Why paragraph, if anybody wants to get more familiar:
12:13:48 <mj-xmr[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/299#why
12:15:07 <mj-xmr[m]> But if this isn't convincing, than I accept your "no".
12:15:23 <mj-xmr[m]> *then
12:25:30 <mj-xmr[m]> <mj-xmr[m]> "I mean, you still want to mine..." <- As well as "have it mined by others" to confirm your transactions. I could imagine what happens to "Some Other ASIC Coins" when TSHTF.
13:31:53 <nikg83[m]> mj-xmr: i understand your reasons, but nobody mines xmr to be profitable (aside from botnets)
13:32:07 <merope> nikg83[m]: [citation needed]
13:32:16 <merope> Profitability is the fundamental incentive behind mining
13:33:02 <merope> The fact that some people accept to mine at breakeven value, or even at a loss, is a posterior consideration
13:33:16 <mj-xmr[m]> nikg83[m]: It isn't profitable if you:
13:33:16 <mj-xmr[m]> - sell while mining, rather than waiting for your price target to be reached
13:33:16 <mj-xmr[m]> - use grid, rather than renewable energy
13:33:49 <merope> I don't know where the myth that "nobody mines xmr to be profitable" started, but it needs to end
13:33:58 <mj-xmr[m]> The 2nd argument becomes even more valid, when power becomes expensive.
13:35:33 <nikg83[m]> merope: If profitability was criteria they would mine some other coins isn’t it ? They mine xmr to secure the network, given that only latest amd processor can be slightly profitable and have very small roi over investment 
13:37:18 <merope> Profitability is a pure number. People make additional subjective considerations based on that number, such as: what's their minimum accepted threshold, which project they want to support/avoid, personal preferences, etc.
13:37:26 <mj-xmr[m]> So if they mine to secure the network, their bill for doing this will be lower, if they use renewables.
13:38:13 <nikg83[m]> mj-xmr[m]: Then they don’t need optimisation, they just need renewable setup and hook up their existing gear
13:38:33 <merope> The concept of a mining reward was introduced in Bitcoin to provide a stable incentive for miners to keep mining and keep the chain alive and stable. Profitability determines the "size" of that incentive: people with the highest profitability have the greatest incentive to mine; people with the lowest profitability have the least incentive to mine/greatest incentive to stop
13:39:24 <merope> nikg83[m]: The optimization would be deciding when to start/stop mining based on your available power and your expected consumption
13:39:39 <mj-xmr[m]> And that renewable setup works only with optimization. Otherwise you either damage your batteries in an isolated setup or consume the power from grid if the mining + regular consumption > renewable production.
13:39:45 <merope> No point in mining all day, if you can't recharge your batteries and get blacked out at night
13:41:39 <merope> I challenge you to find people willing to spend 10$ of electricity to mine 1$ of xmr (who aren't millionaires with free money to burn). Profitability matters
13:44:12 <nikg83[m]> merope: It’s not that huge of a difference right now, it’s simply not that profitable for miners to invest considering they are against miners who have zero investment and can scale when they want 
13:44:16 <merope> * personal preferences, the hardware they have available, etc.
13:45:09 <merope> Here's the irony in that bit: profitability is low because there are many people willingly mining at a loss - thus lowering profitability for everyone
13:45:25 <nikg83[m]> Fix botnet issues, then think about optimisation
13:46:09 <merope> That's a nonsequitur :) It has nothing to do with the optimizations of our project
13:46:52 <nioc> This sounds like it addresses off grid solar, you mention batteries
13:47:29 <merope> The optimization in our project is: "You have a solar power setup. Find out how much power you can produce, how much you consume, and use the excess energy to mine at a profit."
13:47:39 <merope> nioc Yup
13:47:47 <merope> Well, it doesn't have to be off-grid
13:48:09 <nioc> Almost all solar my me is tied to the grid, no batteries 
13:48:30 <nioc> I think in Germany you must tie into the grid
13:48:38 <merope> It can also be on-grid: if you're forced to resell your excess power at a bad price, perhaps mining is more profitable
13:49:25 <mj-xmr[m]> nioc: Not necessarily. This is my setup but I will be allowing users to select their setups. This will affect some variables from the input but the rest remains the same.
13:49:27 <merope> And our system will tell you how much, and run your mining rigs accordingly
13:49:31 <mj-xmr[m]> nioc: Not true.
13:50:06 <nioc> For new systems?
13:50:15 <mj-xmr[m]> Yes.
13:51:00 <mj-xmr[m]> https://www.enpal.de/magazin/solar-inselanlage
13:51:27 <plowsof[m]> I like the idea of a 'mentor' and 'student' for a ccs proposal (someone to be held accountable and help to complete, which i trust mjxmr to 'get it done') endor00 has this issue been resolved? are those "quotes" accurate? i think mining monero with "free" electricity / and those quotes are a bit strange  https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/679
13:51:29 <dartian[m]> > <@mj-xmr:matrix.org> It isn't profitable if you:
13:51:29 <dartian[m]> > - sell while mining, rather than waiting for your price target to be reached
13:51:29 <dartian[m]> > - use grid, rather than renewable energy
13:51:29 <dartian[m]> That's not profiting from mining, though. That's profiting from speculation. 
13:52:09 <mj-xmr[m]> dartian[m]: Imagine that you can't buy Monero and you want to have it anyway. You have to mine it.
13:52:35 <mj-xmr[m]> Secondly, I don't know as far speculation goes, but anything below the average price is "oversold"
13:52:37 <dartian[m]> Who can't buy monero?
13:52:56 <mj-xmr[m]> dartian[m]: Locked out of the system. Like being in Russia.
13:53:32 <merope> plowsof long story short, those "quotes" are absolute bs. He spent the whole argument twisting my words into oblivion and throwing strawman after strawman just to derail the conversation. Hell, just compare them with the stuff I say just above here ^ about profitability and judge for yourself
13:54:22 <merope> dartian[m]: People in Australia, for example (from exchanges, at least)
13:54:31 <merope> People in NY
13:54:45 <merope> Lots more that I can't recall
13:54:53 <dartian[m]> mj-xmr[m]: I didn't realize people in Russia were locked out of the system. I thought acquiring crypto was accessible even in places like China because people exchange fiat for it through mail
13:55:21 <mj-xmr[m]> dartian[m]: Hi. I'm Chinese FED. Would you like to buy Monero from me?
13:55:41 <mj-xmr[m]> Russians get their Visas and Mastercards blocked.
13:55:56 <nioc> Teach people to static overclock at an efficient cpu frequency and undervolt :D
13:56:09 <nioc> Much savings
13:56:36 <merope> Yeah, there was some push to get exchanges to ban/block russian customers, with the fear that they might use crypto to funnel money in/out of Russia
13:56:45 <merope> Not sure how it went though
13:58:45 <dartian[m]> I didn't realize crypto is actually firewalled for billions of people between billions of others. Not being sarcastic or anything... I just didn't realize
13:59:03 <dartian[m]> except for mining 
13:59:25 <mj-xmr[m]> nioc: I'm only talking about operating within the permitted frequency range by the governor. It's easier than you think.
14:00:06 <mj-xmr[m]> `cpufreq-set -c 0 --related --max`
14:00:19 <mj-xmr[m]> * --related --max 1.2GHz`
14:00:48 <merope> Yup. One of the many reasons why PoS cannot truly replace PoW: in a PoW system, anyone can "join" just by mining; in a PoS system, you can only enter if someone else who's already in decides to sell you some of their coins (and the power that comes with them)
14:01:04 <merope> And we all know how much rich people like hoarding power
14:01:16 <mj-xmr[m]> merope: Sounds like a.... like a Ponzi Scheme!
14:01:26 <dartian[m]> <mj-xmr[m]> "Hi. I'm Chinese FED. Would you..." <- why not? is there additional risk? a reputable seller is a reputable seller
14:01:28 <merope> lol
14:02:01 <mj-xmr[m]> dartian[m]: For example the reputable seller is already 100% busy talking with only reputable buyers.
14:02:04 <merope>  * lol (to the ponzi scheme comment)
14:02:26 <mj-xmr[m]> *only the reputable byuers.
14:03:44 <merope> dartian[m]: In a hostile environment such as China, identifying a truly reputable seller can be extremely difficult. It's not sustainable if you're trying to build a new large-scale economy
14:04:54 <dartian[m]> mj-xmr[m]: I am **really** reluctant to say "Ponzi" about the NgU purists roping normies in for greed, but I don't believe the people on the internet who say "I always stack sats and will never part any of them"
14:34:06 <dartian[m]> <merope> "In a hostile environment such as..." <- I can imagine. Yeah that's definitely going to require a lot more effort. Mining is the clearest way to acquire, but even spending becomes difficult for many normal purposes
14:34:42 <jwinterm> sgp_: if you guys could make this same document for ios I would buy you like two beers https://github.com/cake-tech/cake_wallet/blob/main/howto-build-android.md
14:41:10 <mj-xmr[m]> <plowsof[m]> "I like the idea of a 'mentor..." <- It's also part of my obligations to recruit and motivate young talent, that Monero needs. It's not enough to say "here I am to help" / "ping me if you need something". In such environment the NFT dealers will snatch them sooner than you know :)
14:43:54 <mj-xmr[m]> I basically wrote the entire proposal, only after asking endor00 a few questions and taking about 4 hours of his time. Not that it was a burden for me, but I don't believe that endor00 would find time to write such a proposal with his busy school schedule. And we want to have everything arranged before the summer starts, so that we can just focus on doing the job.
14:44:26 <mj-xmr[m]> Or do you see it differently, endor00 ?
14:53:34 <merope> Not that I couldn't find the time, but I have not tackled a project this size before. Having an experienced mentor that can bridge my gaps and help me if I get stuck is a great opportunity for me. Plus, I get to apply all the theoretical knowledge about mining to a "real", practical project
15:04:22 <mj-xmr[m]> <merope> "plowsof long story short, those..." <- I've been through this as a moderator when I was at that age as well. There was chaos, I banned a few arrogant people, they bit me back. Standard thing. The cure is actually to do something productive and let them use your paid software, so to speak.
15:08:08 <mj-xmr[m]> And I don't want to point at anybody but people usually overreact, when you confront them with carefully prepared quantitative analysis, that proves them wrong ;)
15:12:56 <mj-xmr[m]> And that's why I think it's better to write working software around an idea, rather than convincing people that the idea is bound to work.
15:19:12 <dartian[m]> I really like your mindset mj-xmr 
15:41:06 <ZombieMaster[m]> <nikg83[m]> "Fix botnet issues, then think..." <- botnets are what will keep monero alive when every PoW crypto is banned 
15:46:03 <merope> I'm not so sure that botnets are actually good for the network
15:46:21 <merope> Sure, they add hashrate, but they push out legitimate miners
15:46:46 <merope> Last thing you want is a bunch of skiddies running your entire financial system
15:47:05 <nikg83[m]> <ZombieMaster[m]> "botnets are what will keep..." <- Retail Botnets vs corporate botnets who will win
15:47:46 <ZombieMaster[m]> time will tell :)
15:48:08 <nikg83[m]> ZombieMaster[m]: Yes till then nobody wants to rely on it 
15:48:51 <ZombieMaster[m]> next few years will be pretty interesting, crypto-wise
16:12:50 <mj-xmr[m]> <ZombieMaster[m]> "next few years will be pretty..." <- "AI Wars", I tell ya.
16:14:38 <ZombieMaster[m]> mj-xmr[m]: "smart mining"
16:15:52 <mj-xmr[m]> "Illegal pirate mining" <-- Mainstream Media fixed it for ya.
16:20:20 <ZombieMaster[m]> pow miners -> terrorists
16:20:30 <ZombieMaster[m]> they do not care for environment
16:20:41 <ZombieMaster[m]> s/pow/PoW/
16:21:19 <mj-xmr[m]> Especially with their renewables. They should have given their gathered power to the People for free!
16:21:25 <mj-xmr[m]> Greedy bastards!
16:21:47 <merope> Electricity is electricity, it has no knowledge of its source. Wanna fix the environment? Stop giving money to coal mines and coal plants, and start subsidizing renewables
16:22:13 <ZombieMaster[m]> personally I'm all in for mining on nuclear energy
16:22:49 <dartian[m]> <mj-xmr[m]> ""Illegal pirate mining" <-- Main..." <- "da4k miners"
16:23:42 <ZombieMaster[m]> but yeah as EU closed nuclears in Germany
16:24:04 <ZombieMaster[m]> and the recent proposal to ban PoW
16:24:15 <ZombieMaster[m]> what next?
16:24:18 <ZombieMaster[m]> stoning people?
16:24:27 <ZombieMaster[m]> crypto users?
16:24:32 <mj-xmr[m]> ZombieMaster[m]: That's why p2pool came around just in time...
16:25:04 <ZombieMaster[m]> word up
16:48:41 <mj-xmr[m]> <xmr-pr> "> https://repo.getmonero.org/..." <- Also available on Reddit:
16:48:41 <mj-xmr[m]> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/tont5q/new_ccs_proposal_soloptxmr_solar_optimal_mining
22:34:59 <surgeon_[m]> <ZombieMaster[m]> "and the recent proposal to ban..." <- What? As in banning PoW mining or any tech using PoW?