02:16:51 <escapethe3ra[m]> https://www.monero.observer/monero-observer-xmr-analysis-week-16-2022/
03:07:12 * Kivojo[m] uploaded an image: (1006KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/agoradesk.com/kxgfhcsXUXgLhXqgLXVXdxxb/image.png >
03:07:45 <Kivojo[m]> Next time be skeptical of people who add "CODE OF CONDUCT" in a repo
03:09:29 <Kivojo[m]> More like "CODE OF CENSORSHIP"
03:13:05 <Kivojo[m]> https://libredd.it/user/HavenoDEX
03:13:05 <Kivojo[m]> Read their disgusting answers here
03:47:43 <jimmyt[m]> What are people finding objectionable about their CoC?
04:04:17 * Kivojo[m] uploaded an image: (65KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/agoradesk.com/KEpeJacslqfrgHZGDvUweMky/image.png >
04:04:29 <Kivojo[m]> <jimmyt[m]> "What are people finding objectio..." <- This ☝️
04:04:55 <mattisr[m]> <jimmyt[m]> "What are people finding objectio..." <- It's not so much that the CoC is objectionable in itself. People are pointing out the raging irony that ErCiccione consistenly exhibits behavior that is the very antithesis of their own supposed "ethos"
04:05:15 <mattisr[m]> * It's not so much that the CoC is objectionable in itself. People are pointing out the raging irony that ErCiccione consistently exhibits behavior that is the very antithesis of their own supposed "ethos"
04:07:40 <selsta> lmao who is this group of people that will suddenly blacklist you for removing a CoC?
04:08:18 <Kivojo[m]> selsta: Disney production
04:09:32 <selsta> if you want to fork and remove the CoC then just do it instead of whining around on Reddit about being blacklisted by whoever
04:14:07 <Kivojo[m]> selsta: Justifications for these kind of acts are incorrect 
04:14:52 <Kivojo[m]> We're fed up with these and don't tolerate anymore
04:15:00 <selsta> we??
04:16:21 <jimmyt[m]> I think people might be seriously misunderstanding the meaning of "listing Zcash". Haveno is heavily based on Bisq, so Haveno's asset listing process is probably very similar to that of Bisq. You can check out the Bisq repo to see what that involves; it can be done with about 80 lines of code in a single commit. As u/HavenoDEX said, Zcash will never touch the platform. Adding Zcash support will probably take a single developer no
04:16:21 <jimmyt[m]> more than 20 minutes.
04:17:26 <Kivojo[m]> selsta: No offence but don't think you're in the majority in this.
04:49:47 <mattisr[m]> <jimmyt[m]> "I think people might be seriousl..." <- I don't think how long it would take to add Zcash to the platform has anything to do with the community's fury and feelings of betrayal
04:50:28 <selsta> it's literally not that deep
04:52:57 <jimmyt[m]> mattisr[m]: Why do you say the community is furious and feeling betrayed?
04:55:44 <jimmyt[m]> oceanus: What about it makes it an SJW tool? As I understand, the CoC boils down to "don't harass people."
04:57:46 <Kivojo[m]> jimmyt[m]: There is no clear definition of harassment in these days and it's wildly open for interpretations so it's basically a tool to silence anyone who you don't like
04:59:26 <Kivojo[m]> Kivojo[m]: And by-default people have sympathy with people who are "offended"
05:01:33 <Kivojo[m]> So it's all going to be justified based on people's feelings and everyone happily walks home
05:07:41 <mattisr[m]> <jimmyt[m]> "Why do you say the community..." <- This thread has had most of the drama caused by ErCiccione wiped clean from it by reddit moderators, but it's a good place to start to get a general understanding of people's feelings about this
05:07:41 <mattisr[m]> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/uaqx9u/haveno_funded_by_the_monero_community_will_list/
05:13:34 <jimmyt[m]> <Kivojo[m]> "There is no clear definition..." <- Ah OK, I guess I understand how definitions of  "Public or private harassment" or "conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate" could be stretched to censor somebody. But then again, if Haveno devs or Reddit mods wanted to shut somebody up, they could delete comments/ban people with or without a CoC. I understand people may have reservations, but all the anger seems like
05:13:34 <jimmyt[m]> a bit of an overreaction to me.
05:15:27 <Kivojo[m]> jimmyt[m]: It's not an overreaction.
05:15:27 <Kivojo[m]> If you'd have enough XP in free software projects, especially in Github, forking and removing a CoC basically means signing your career's death sentence
05:16:00 <selsta> imagine being afraid of deleting a document
05:16:22 <Kivojo[m]> selsta: Who's trolling now
05:16:26 <selsta> make a new account, then you don't have to worry about your career
05:17:42 <jimmyt[m]> > <@mattisr:nokyc.im> This thread has had most of the drama caused by ErCiccione wiped clean from it by reddit moderators, but it's a good place to start to get a general understanding of people's feelings about this
05:17:42 <jimmyt[m]> > 
05:17:42 <jimmyt[m]> > https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/uaqx9u/haveno_funded_by_the_monero_community_will_list/
05:17:42 <jimmyt[m]> Already read and left my thoughts about misunderstanding on that post. Comments seem to be filled with a lot of people with very short fuses. If people are this opposed to Zcash, will we see the same reaction if the devs decide to allow WeChat/AliPay/UPI?
05:19:16 <Kivojo[m]> selsta: I'm trying to keep this conversation polite but you wouldn't let.
05:21:09 <Kivojo[m]> In what world you keep creating aliases and making new reputations unless you're a conman trying to scam people?
05:22:00 <Kivojo[m]> In systems that are built on some levels of trust, this idiotic approach of you is impractical
05:22:29 <Kivojo[m]> s/approach/approaches/
05:23:07 <Kivojo[m]>  * In systems that are built on some levels of trust, this idiotic approach of you is impractical
05:25:34 <Kivojo[m]> All some of people have become is just a cope mechanism that waits for the other big thing to adopt itself to it
05:25:49 <Kivojo[m]> s/itself/themselves/
05:26:04 <Kivojo[m]> s/thing/scandal/, s/itself/themselves/
05:26:43 <jimmyt[m]> Kivojo[m]: What do you mean by this?
05:28:27 <mattisr[m]> <jimmyt[m]> "> <@mattisr:nokyc.im> This..." <- Nice. Thanks for checking it out. Yeah, short fuses definitely abound on both sides. To say this is a controversial decision on Haveno's part is definitely an understatement.
05:29:13 <Kivojo[m]> jimmyt[m]: Think about Snowden, prior to it people were like "dude you're not important for the government", after that it came out they were wrong, they just coped with it like "pfff, yeah government did it but they're not able to do anything with all those data"
05:29:13 <Kivojo[m]> It's all just a big, programmed coping mechanism
05:30:01 <Kivojo[m]> * came out that they were
05:30:42 <Kivojo[m]> do not tolerate
05:30:57 <Kivojo[m]> if you do, they are going to do way worse than the last time
05:31:16 <Kivojo[m]> And it's never going to end
05:32:18 <jimmyt[m]> mattisr[m]: I guess I just don't really understand why this is so controversial. Isn't the entire point of a DEX to allow people to acquire/dispose on their own terms? And since Monero hodlers seem to dislike Zcash so much, wouldn't they want to provide Zcash users with a KYC-free avenue for ditching Zcash and making the switch to XMR?
05:32:33 <Kivojo[m]> <selsta> "make a new account, then you don..." <- Don't be like this
05:33:57 <Kivojo[m]> jimmyt[m]: Oh my dear friend, you don't seem to know the toxicity of Zcash community
05:34:20 <jimmyt[m]> Kivojo[m]: No, I'm not familiar with it.
05:35:30 <Kivojo[m]> jimmyt[m]: Smallest dogs bark the loudest
05:36:15 <monerobull[m]> Whenever ZCash pumps over noneros per coin price they are like "this is a historical moment, real privacy won"
05:36:39 <orly_owl> ZCrap
05:37:29 <monerobull[m]> And monero is just a shell game anyways, just look at this paper written by a monero researcher about how monero wasn't as private before we added more privacy
05:38:04 <Kivojo[m]> monerobull[m]: The population of Zcash community won't even go near 1000 people
05:38:04 <Kivojo[m]> But they bark the loudest
05:38:29 <monerobull[m]> They are actively harming people by claiming their coin is so superior in privacy over everything
05:39:25 <Kivojo[m]> s/won/don/, s/go/exceed/, s/near/to/
05:39:31 <monerobull[m]> It just doesn't matter if you have the most private transactions if there's only 200 fully private transactions per day
05:40:00 <Kivojo[m]> s/won/doesn/, s/go/exceed/, s/near/to/
05:40:22 <monerobull[m]> Can just figure out it was you by looking which IP the transaction came from and then ask ISPs who that was
05:40:32 <Kivojo[m]> monerobull[m]: And it doesn't have trustless setup
05:40:51 <monerobull[m]> Kivojo[m]: Oh but they are "going to remove it soon"
05:45:09 <Kivojo[m]> What you want to say about Zcash, It doesn't matter because
05:45:09 <Kivojo[m]> with its enlisting in Haveno, you're doing more harm than good to your "beloved and only thing we want to use" BS you, Haveno and Erc, said for past couple days on social media
05:45:09 <Kivojo[m]> Do it or don't do it, we are fed up with you
05:51:57 <monerobull[m]> There is really nothing to gain for Monero and the only thing it gives haveno is a dead pair to boost the number of available cryptos
06:11:16 <mattisr[m]> > <@kivojo:agoradesk.com> What you want to say about Zcash, It doesn't matter because
06:11:16 <mattisr[m]> > with its enlisting in Haveno, you're doing more harm than good to your "beloved and only thing we want to use" BS you, Haveno and Erc, said for past couple days on social media
06:11:16 <mattisr[m]> > Do it or don't do it, we are fed up with you
06:11:16 <mattisr[m]> Yup. Definitely more interested in checking out the other fork, Penumbra.
06:12:12 <jimmyt[m]> mattisr[m]: Is that still being developed? It sounds very cool, but it looks like the last commit was months ago.
06:57:05 <cheekyleeks> jimmyt[m]: https://gitlab.com/l0nelyc0w/penumbra/
07:05:53 <jimmyt[m]> <cheekyleeks> "jimmyt: https://gitlab.com/..." <- I was looking at the PenumbraDEX Gitlab rather than l0nelyc0w‘s. Thanks for the link.
07:06:07 <jimmyt[m]> * > <@cheekyleeks:libera.chat> jimmyt: https://gitlab.com/l0nelyc0w/penumbra/
07:06:07 <jimmyt[m]> Ah, I was looking at the PenumbraDEX Gitlab rather than l0nelyc0w‘s. Thanks for the link.
08:02:01 <bridgerton[m]> <ian.niculescu> https://cincodias.elpais.com/cincodias/2022/04/12/mercados/1649718725_561435.html
08:02:08 <bridgerton[m]> <ian.niculescu> I answered questions for this one lol
08:02:15 <bridgerton[m]> <ian.niculescu> @sgp
08:22:43 <cheekyleeks> @ian.niculescu bad one... but meh. ""Preferimos decir que el Bitcoin es una moneda de vigilancia, mientras que la nuestra es una moneda normal", ironiza el portavoz."
08:25:25 <bridgerton[m]> <ian.niculescu> (google translates it for you)
08:25:26 <bridgerton[m]> <ian.niculescu> (I hope you don't use google like me though)
08:25:43 <bridgerton[m]> <ian.niculescu> yeah haha
08:33:47 <bridgerton[m]> <ian.niculescu> 
08:33:47 <bridgerton[m]> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/621366094531133461/968429674382381056/Monero_questions.docx
09:10:53 <rbrunner> Maybe convert that "Monero_questions.docx" to a PDF before sharing? Just for peace of mind. All kinds of bad things can lurk inside a .docx for Windows users.
09:11:26 <rbrunner> And that article isn't too bad, is it?
11:49:03 <netrik182> if anyone here speaks Chinese and can add a comment, it would be very much appreciated https://github.com/monero-ecosystem/monero-translations/issues/117
12:31:05 <bridgerton[m]> <sgp> Did they not credit you?
12:32:08 <bridgerton[m]> <sgp> I specifically sent: 
12:32:08 <bridgerton[m]> > I am forwarding an attached response from Monero community member ian_niculescu
12:32:45 <bridgerton[m]> <sgp> Thank you for making the doc!
12:34:32 <bridgerton[m]> <ian.niculescu> I mean it's really not important, thank you though
13:38:15 <r4v3r23[m]> anyone got stats on RPC node monthly data usage?
13:40:58 <spacekitty420[m4> r4v3r23[m]: wondering same thing, like how long a $9 of 2GB data through crypto on https://silent.link esim can last if only doing things like ssh, rpc and such o.o
13:41:17 <spacekitty420[m4> * crypto on <https://silent.link, * https://silent.link> esim
13:41:34 <r4v3r23[m]> spacekitty420[m4: dont think 2GB will last very long
13:44:08 <spacekitty420[m4> with locking everything up with proper firewall rules prob could make it last more than a month which would be oki imo, anyways, would still be nice to have some actual data like u be asking :3
13:44:44 <r4v3r23[m]> bitcoin blockchain grows by about 2GB a month
13:44:44 <r4v3r23[m]> monero would be more
13:45:02 <spacekitty420[m4> oh right, i meant as a remote client, not the actual node
13:45:17 <spacekitty420[m4> like client to remote into the node
13:45:47 <r4v3r23[m]> so just your walelt scanning blocks to sync?
13:45:50 <r4v3r23[m]> thats essentially an RPC node 
13:45:54 <spacekitty420[m4> yeah
13:46:03 <r4v3r23[m]> in terms of data usage
13:46:28 <spacekitty420[m4> dang, well R.I.P 😿
13:47:11 <r4v3r23[m]> spacekitty420[m4: LWS will help out as long as you have a node running somewhere
13:47:25 <r4v3r23[m]> it removes the need for syncing on mobile
13:49:57 <spacekitty420[m4> monero-lws (light wallet server), looking into it, thanks <3
13:51:37 <r4v3r23[m]> still a WIP but should be ready soon
13:52:58 <cryptogrampy[m]> spacekitty420[m4: Take note that these bugs still exist in the mobile apps: https://github.com/mymonero/mymonero-app-js/issues/458
13:53:39 <cryptogrampy[m]> If you go with mymonero apps with your selfhosted lws.  They said they fixed the desktop app, but I haven't tested it yet
13:54:47 <r4v3r23[m]> cryptogrampy[m]: MM is the only wallet that supports lws?
13:56:19 <spacekitty420[m4> more like sharing the connection from phone to desktop through ethernet and do that from inside desktop virtual machines rather than directly using a phone app but i pretty stoopid so that's most likely a bad idea tbh 😹
14:05:59 <cryptogrampy[m]> <r4v3r23[m]> "MM is the only wallet that..." <- not sure on that.  
14:46:19 <agatesAlecksGate> Is there any interest in the community for looking at how to integrate Monero into "Podcasting 2.0" (pc20) as an alternative to Bitcoin lightning?
14:46:19 <agatesAlecksGate> I'm pretty heavily involved in the pc20 community and would love to help if there's anyone already interested, as I know the required areas of research but not how they fit into Monero
14:49:37 <plowsof[m]> Could add that to the community meeting this Sunday if you'd like , or i can mention it if you're not available https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/695
14:52:08 <cryptogrampy[m]> > <@agates:matrix.org> Is there any interest in the community for looking at how to integrate Monero into "Podcasting 2.0" (pc20) as an alternative to Bitcoin lightning?
14:52:08 <cryptogrampy[m]> > 
14:52:08 <cryptogrampy[m]> > I'm pretty heavily involved in the pc20 community and would love to help if there's anyone already interested, as I know the required areas of research but not how they fit into Monero
14:52:08 <cryptogrampy[m]> can you send a link to an overview of what this is?
15:03:35 <cryptogrampy[m]> (also why it's needed :) )
15:05:57 <plowsof[m]> i've added it to the open ideas section after skimming over this link https://www.newsbtc.com/news/bitcoin/lightning-speed-podcasting-2-0-and-its-relationship-with-the-lightning-network/ - using monero 0conf transactions for micropayments in real time im assuming ^ 
15:05:57 <plowsof[m]> >“As Podcasting 2.0 apps continue to build easy interfaces for listeners to tip their favorite podcasters, Lightning tips could even become a primary revenue source, without cannibalizing or interfering with a creator’s existing ad revenue.”
15:07:07 <cryptogrampy[m]> There are a couple projects related to this in monero: https://git.sr.ht/~anon_/shadowchat and https://github.com/tipxmr
15:08:14 <cryptogrampy[m]> https://xmr.lukesmith.xyz/
15:08:20 <cryptogrampy[m]> example of the shadowchat 
15:08:45 <cryptogrampy[m]> i assume luke needs to be livestreaming for it to really 'work' :)
15:12:36 <plowsof[m]> I've seen it in action on Lukes stream, really nice
15:12:55 <cryptogrampy[m]> Yeah i was trying to find the video- feel free to post it if you find
15:13:15 <spacekitty420[m4> lukesmith \o/
15:13:15 <spacekitty420[m4> https://based.cooking
15:13:15 <spacekitty420[m4> <3
15:13:15 <spacekitty420[m4> :3
15:19:05 <surgeon_[m]> "Normal" recipe websites are a nightmare come alive. The popups, the ads. Downright scary.
15:19:18 <cryptogrampy[m]> So it seems like podcasting 2.0 is additional meta tags that allow creators to add payment methods?  So for Monero, they could add their tip link and/or their monero donation address?
15:19:57 <cryptogrampy[m]> I don't see how a 'new' centralized index of podcast 2.0's is censorship resistant though
15:20:52 <spacekitty420[m4> seems like it, just read a medium article explaining it, the "value-to-value" category was the one relevant to tipping with LN which seems pretty nice, like for tips on streams can even add a message and such
15:20:56 <cryptogrampy[m]> surgeon_[m]: Please spend 5 minutes scrolling on my page before i give you the recipe
15:21:56 <spacekitty420[m4> s/to/for/
15:22:11 <cryptogrampy[m]> spacekitty420[m4: so apps that are podcast 2.0 compatible allow app creators to implement the messaging interface using the metatags under the hood
15:22:45 <cryptogrampy[m]> so in the shadowchat example, the creator could also provide an api compatible with podcast 2.0 
15:23:10 <cryptogrampy[m]> * example, the shadowchat creator could
15:23:12 <cryptogrampy[m]> instead of just providing a UI 
15:26:29 <cryptogrampy[m]> will have to see how the lightning payment works... is it a kind of handshake with the podcast host's server? or is it more one-way
15:26:43 <cryptogrampy[m]> i.e. here's my payment, the message, and the podcaster it's intended for
15:28:11 <cryptogrampy[m]> <cryptogrampy[m]> "so apps that are podcast 2.0..." <- by apps here, i'm talking the podcast apps.  I.e. you pull up your favorite podcast app and it supports podcast 2.0, and it has a nice interface to send a message to a podcaster.  i'm totally spitballing here and should actually download a podcast 2.0 app
15:30:46 <cryptogrampy[m]> https://github.com/Podcastindex-org/podcast-namespace/blob/main/podcasting2.0.md
15:32:16 <agatesAlecksGate> <cryptogrampy[m]> "I don't see how a 'new' centrali..." <- The index is not the central point of the project, though they do provide their database.  Podping is the layer that we have to publish new feeds/updates, and that isn't centralized.  Regardless, none of that has to do with value-for-value.
15:35:22 <surgeon_[m]> <cryptogrampy[m]> "Please spend 5 minutes scrolling..." <- And here's a funny story about me and my family that is barely related to the recipe or cooking at all. Please read it before we get to the recipe.
15:37:43 <agatesAlecksGate> <cryptogrampy[m]> "So it seems like podcasting 2...." <- Yes, the Podcast Namespace is a standard RSS namespace that would be defined where one would be able to list Monero addresses.  However it's not this simple, as we need to consider:
15:37:43 <agatesAlecksGate> 1. Transaction volume, currently these applications are performing tens if not hundreds of thousands of micro payments per month
15:37:43 <agatesAlecksGate> 2. Podcast app integration to actually perform payments, currently we do them on a "per-minute" basis.
15:37:43 <agatesAlecksGate> 3. There's a way to attach messages but i don't think the payment mechanism should be used for messaging, personally.  As of now apps are attaching JSON payloads to payments and causing protocol bloat and centralization issues.  I wrote a concept for an out-of-band proof of payment standard because of this
15:39:56 <cryptogrampy[m]> 🤔
15:40:05 <agatesAlecksGate> <cryptogrampy[m]> "will have to see how the..." <- Currently they use keysend to send payments, lightning offers a mechanism to find a "route" over a series of onion routed payment channels.  It's a giant mess and i have concerns on centralization of liquidity.
15:40:43 <cryptogrampy[m]> So looking at fountain.fm, is the goal with that app to create a platform where users must pay for use of the stream?
15:40:51 <cryptogrampy[m]> i.e. as they listen, they pay?
15:41:00 <agatesAlecksGate> <cryptogrampy[m]> "by apps here, i'm talking the..." <- Breez is probably the easiest to understand both sides of this it's a Bitcoin/lightning wallet that has podcast integration
15:42:44 <agatesAlecksGate> cryptogrampy[m]: No, payments are entirely opt in.  http://value4value.io
15:42:44 <agatesAlecksGate> I can't speak for fountain's marketing
15:44:04 <agatesAlecksGate> It may be that some apps try to enforce payment but that's an app-level decision, and not a protocol one
15:44:37 <agatesAlecksGate> * Yes, the Podcast Namespace is a standard RSS namespace that would be defined where one would be able to list Monero addresses.  However it's not this simple, as we need to consider:
15:44:37 <agatesAlecksGate> 1. Transaction volume, currently these applications are performing tens if not hundreds of thousands of micro payments per month
15:44:37 <agatesAlecksGate> 2. Podcast app integration to actually perform payments, currently we do them on a "per-minute" basis.
15:44:37 <agatesAlecksGate> 3. There's a way to attach messages but i don't think the payment mechanism should be used for messaging, personally.  As of now apps are attaching JSON payloads to payments and causing protocol bloat and centralization issues.  I wrote a concept for an out-of-band proof of payment standard because of this
15:44:39 <agatesAlecksGate> * Yes, the Podcast Namespace is a standard RSS namespace that would be defined where one would be able to list Monero addresses.  However it's not this simple, as we need to consider:
15:44:39 <agatesAlecksGate> 1. Transaction volume, currently these applications are performing tens if not hundreds of thousands of micro payments per month
15:44:39 <agatesAlecksGate> 2. Podcast app integration to actually perform payments, currently we do them on a "per-minute" basis.
15:44:39 <agatesAlecksGate> 3. There's a way to attach messages but i don't think the payment mechanism should be used for messaging, personally.  As of now apps are attaching JSON payloads to payments and causing protocol bloat and centralization issues.  I wrote a concept for an out-of-band proof of payment standard because of this
15:46:54 <cryptogrampy[m]> If i was implementing this for monero, I would have a direct 'stream' payment metatag where creators simply provide a monero address, and a superchat-stream tag where content creators can provide a standardized common API for receiving superchat payments/messages.  That api could be provided by a selfhosted server or a centralized superchat service they pay for. 
15:47:11 <cryptogrampy[m]> * common API/url for
15:47:43 <cryptogrampy[m]> I can't speak to the capacity of monero for receving small streaming payments but it is a dynamically scaling blockchain that is made for cheap tx's.  
15:50:27 <agatesAlecksGate> I did work on this concept to provide opt-in payment proofs for lightning and i think it could be extended to Monero.  The idea is to provide a standard way to "prove" a payment without relying on in-band metadata
15:50:27 <agatesAlecksGate> https://github.com/Podcastindex-org/podcast-namespace/issues/355
15:51:07 <cryptogrampy[m]> I would probably expect the superchat server host to prove the payment
15:51:09 <agatesAlecksGate> Basically JSON Web Tokens for payments
15:53:34 <cryptogrampy[m]> ah i see
15:53:50 <cryptogrampy[m]> you're providing the proof and data to the recipient
15:54:23 <agatesAlecksGate> cryptogrampy[m]: Depends on the payment mechanism and why, both Monero and keysend in lightning have this issue of not knowing *who* sent money.  Which is great.  But if i want to say I did it this is a means to prove it
15:55:15 <agatesAlecksGate> cryptogrampy[m]: Yes and I do think the out of band proof is critical for scaling purposes
15:56:17 <cryptogrampy[m]> well, in monero's case, sending messages via tx isn't really encouraged :)
15:56:23 <agatesAlecksGate> But anyway, I'm primarily interested in the part about how to actually send payments first :) and how does Monero scale for micro payments?
15:58:01 <spacekitty420[m4> scales very very well with that dynamic block size thingy
15:59:10 <reeemuru[m]> > <@agates:matrix.org> I did work on this concept to provide opt-in payment proofs for lightning and i think it could be extended to Monero.  The idea is to provide a standard way to "prove" a payment without relying on in-band metadata
15:59:10 <reeemuru[m]> > 
15:59:10 <reeemuru[m]> > https://github.com/Podcastindex-org/podcast-namespace/issues/355
15:59:10 <reeemuru[m]> seems like an upgrade to LSATs no? a loose analogy ->  basic http  auth : lsat :: jwt : jpt
15:59:34 <spacekitty420[m4> the only theorical limit about how many tx/s would be how fast the blockchain would be growing with all dem tx and if the nodes can even sync that fast
15:59:34 <spacekitty420[m4> which would already be more than visa/mastercards tx/s or something like that, aint got the numbers right now so correct me if am wrong but should be something along those lines
15:59:41 <cryptogrampy[m]> it's just kind of a useful wrapper around a txproof
15:59:48 <agatesAlecksGate> reeemuru[m]: Yes, something not lightning specific
16:00:41 <agatesAlecksGate> And critically not tied to an identity provider
16:01:23 <reeemuru[m]> hmm, maybe try and bake in similar data from tpat into the json web token using monero's tx proofs
16:01:23 <reeemuru[m]> very interesting🤔
16:02:07 <cryptogrampy[m]> Someone in MRL said you can create a txproof that includes the amount for monero, but I still need proof that that's possible
16:02:45 <cryptogrampy[m]> passing someone a txproof is still kind of a 0conf tx, correct?
16:03:43 <cryptogrampy[m]> tfw you're 85 yo and very out of your safe zone 
16:04:26 <reeemuru[m]> cryptogrampy[m]: yes tx proof has amt on OutProofV2
16:04:33 <reeemuru[m]> https://github.com/hyahatiph-labs/infosec/tree/main/tpat
16:05:33 <reeemuru[m]> see https://www.getmonero.org/resources/developer-guides/wallet-rpc.html#check_tx_proof
16:05:52 <cryptogrampy[m]> https://github.com/hyahatiph-labs/infosec/blob/main/tpat/plantuml/e2e-flow.png :o 
16:07:59 <reeemuru[m]> <cryptogrampy[m]> "passing someone a txproof is..." <- i never really thought of it as a scaling solution but i guess in a way it is due to the fact that authentication and payment creates time-based access instead of relying on multiple payments
16:08:11 <reeemuru[m]> the jwt could be more secure though
16:08:30 <reeemuru[m]>  * the jwt could be more secure though
16:08:30 <reeemuru[m]> edit: is more secure...
16:09:43 * monerobull[m] uploaded an image: (187KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/psFFuAvJFwnYFqaarPQaZbxL/grafik.png >
16:09:45 <monerobull[m]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIwsMidCk0w
16:10:05 <cryptogrampy[m]> I think for auth, a txproof totally makes sense, but for payment, the protected resource owner (i.e. my protected pickle jar factory) has to specify how many conf's they want before they send out the pickles
16:10:44 <monerobull[m]> monerobull[m]: oh the video is about the report we funded kek
16:10:51 <cryptogrampy[m]> they also need a monerod connection, whereas an auth resource could theoretically be protected by an offline validator
16:10:58 <cryptogrampy[m]> * an auth-only resource
16:12:45 <cryptogrampy[m]> https://github.com/monero-ecosystem/Monero-Crypto-Lock/
16:12:49 <reeemuru[m]> cryptogrampy[m]: from a pure privacy perspective we all 'need' to run our own monerod instance no?
16:12:50 <cryptogrampy[m]> reeemuru: 
16:14:29 <cryptogrampy[m]> that cryptolock example uses a challenge and signature handshake that happens totally offline on both ends
16:16:08 <reeemuru[m]> cryptogrampy[m]: hmm interesting, i haven't read much on seraphis but it seems like a job for 'tx chaining' if possible as far as offline txs but not sure
16:21:57 <reeemuru[m]> oh wait maybe im off topic now. the json web token is interesting. in order to scale these payment systems it needs to be transparent to users. my brain isn't big enought for that yet
16:22:10 <reeemuru[m]> * the json ~web, * web~, *  payment token is
16:23:43 <cryptogrampy[m]> I think the payment token is like, hey merchant, here's what i bought, here's how much i paid, here's proof that this hasn't been tampered with, and here's my txproof of payment.  it's just a standardized message that the merchant would validate on their end before approving sending out the goods
16:24:14 <reeemuru[m]> cryptogrampy[m]: or like tab?
16:24:24 <cryptogrampy[m]> I think 🫣
16:24:34 <reeemuru[m]> like hey here is how much i already paid, you still owe 4 beers
16:25:39 <cryptogrampy[m]> I think a txproof is still 0conf though.  I could create this using a nefarious monero node and say, hey I paid!  see!.  Recipient always has to validate using their own node
16:25:50 <agatesAlecksGate> cryptogrampy[m]: But also equivalently useful for things like superchats.  You could attach the token to a message anywhere and provide just enough information for the recipient to validate it
16:25:53 <reeemuru[m]> cryptogrampy[m]: no no no
16:26:00 <reeemuru[m]> it has the amount of confs
16:26:16 <reeemuru[m]> reject if it doesnt enoug
16:26:20 <cryptogrampy[m]> my nefarious node adds the confs? 
16:27:05 <reeemuru[m]> i dont think this is blockchain data, not created by a user
16:27:14 <reeemuru[m]> cant forge confirmations
16:27:24 <reeemuru[m]> well, not easily i imagine
16:27:39 <reeemuru[m]> s/dont//
16:27:58 <cryptogrampy[m]> that's beyond my smol brain.  but huge if true.
16:28:31 * reeemuru[m] sent a json code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/1037a54058a127f7a77270b3380618a9d9475dc5
16:28:40 <reeemuru[m]> that is tx proof
16:29:54 <reeemuru[m]> potential validations (e.g. prokurilo)... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/3c06ce9975ff9cf777cb167a3f18d1d7b8fb17f3)
16:32:09 <cryptogrampy[m]> > <@reeemuru:matrix.org> potential validations (e.g. prokurilo)... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/b64f1163db71380d112925443f69c14029de6014)
16:32:15 <reeemuru[m]> oh nvm i think you mean to verify confs offline yeah?
16:33:41 <reeemuru[m]> im not so sure about the integration, i would have to look more into that 
16:35:24 <cryptogrampy[m]> I guess my initial question is, is there anything i can hand to a merchant from a txproof perspective that tells them I paid X amount of Monero and it has say, 3 confirmations that they can verify offline ?
16:35:59 <cryptogrampy[m]> I have to assume that's a no? 
16:36:53 <reeemuru[m]> cryptogrampy[m]: one sec
16:37:10 <reeemuru[m]> havent done this in a while
16:38:40 <merope> I guess having them import the signed transaction from you into their offline wallet would allow them to see that it is indeed valid and correct
16:38:57 <merope> But they would have no way to check confirmations, because they are offline
16:39:11 <cryptogrampy[m]> That's what i'm getting at
16:39:29 <reeemuru[m]> yeah sounds right
16:40:06 <reeemuru[m]> but if it a superchat host, arent they always online?
16:40:37 <reeemuru[m]> or you mean just not using monerod? cryptogrampy 
16:41:13 <cryptogrampy[m]> So i think this json payment token is like:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/7356553d106c55bfd11d62f41a7a90803529c92b)
16:41:51 <reeemuru[m]> monerochan 🤤
16:41:53 <cryptogrampy[m]> and reemuru spins up his monerod, uses his moneros json payment token validator to validate payment, and do all of the things requested in the token
16:42:40 <cryptogrampy[m]> https://github.com/Podcastindex-org/podcast-namespace/issues/355
16:42:42 <cryptogrampy[m]> this token 
16:43:26 <merope> Though nothing stops them from submitting that tx through their online node, just to double check: either the transaction already exists and is valid (all good); or it doesn't exist and it gets accepted (you lied about submitting the payment, but they caught you before you spent those coins elsewhere); or it gets rejected as a double-spend (because you've already spent those coins elsewhere, like sending them to yourself)
16:43:54 <reeemuru[m]> dont trust verify
16:44:37 <cryptogrampy[m]> yeah.  So i think the server end of this would be really easy to implement, you just parse the request, decode the jwt, and use monero-javascript or soemthing to ping monerod and verify payment stuff
16:45:12 <cryptogrampy[m]> and on the podcast app end, the podcast would have to be a sort of wallet that provides the txproof stuff and assembles the payment token
16:45:20 <cryptogrampy[m]> * the podcast app would have
16:45:43 <cryptogrampy[m]> or else it generates the payment uri, watches for the payment and then sends the message along
16:45:46 <cryptogrampy[m]> something like that
16:46:46 <merope> To verify the payment on the receiver side, the easiest solution would be a view-only rpc wallet and using tx-notify. Pretty sure it's already baked into the js/python libraries
16:47:24 <cryptogrampy[m]> and the whole purpose of this is to create a format for sending information along with payment 'proof' to a merchant/podcast host etc
16:48:13 <cryptogrampy[m]> merope: yes, but this jwt payment is a wrapper that allows apps to send payments with messages
16:48:31 <merope> Oooh right, sorry - I was missing some context
16:49:58 <cryptogrampy[m]> or not 
16:50:14 <reeemuru[m]> alright, now that that is settled, wen xmr podcast?
16:50:38 <agatesAlecksGate> <cryptogrampy[m]> "yeah.  So i think the server end..." <- Yeah, it's just a string you attach to some API.  For live chats I'm probably going to extend XMPP to allow something.  But that's way down the road.  We're still working on live stream support and decentralized live stream notifications within apps
16:51:29 <cryptogrampy[m]> agatesAlecksGate: can you give an example of what a request would look like for me sending 'hello world' to your podcast using monero and your jwt idea?
16:51:37 <cryptogrampy[m]> * your jwt-payment idea?
16:52:53 <cryptogrampy[m]> just dummy data for proof and such
16:58:06 <agatesAlecksGate> <cryptogrampy[m]> "can you give an example of..." <- Anything i would come up with now would be pure speculation, I'm still arguing with the Bitcoin guys about not sending messages over lightning.
16:58:06 <agatesAlecksGate> But there may need to be a distinction between offline and live stuff.  For offline, perhaps the podcast would specify a standard HTTP API in their feed to send a message to.  Alternatively, since we are actively implementing ActivityPub comments, a token could be attached to a comment (which could be public or private).
16:58:06 <agatesAlecksGate> I think I lean more toward the latter route since it's a spec that already exists and has a mechanism to extend.  We'll eventually be adding other metadata like timestamps to say *when* you're commenting within the episode.  The payment token would be additional metadata at this point
16:58:06 <agatesAlecksGate> Live experiences ala YouTube/Twitch have different options because they are inherently more interactive
17:01:16 <cryptogrampy[m]> I like pure speculation 😁.  It would be helpful to get a clearer idea of what you're trying to build
17:02:05 <kindlyremember[m> Hi all, I’m new here
17:02:40 <cryptogrampy[m]> agates (Alecks Gates):  In the superchat example, how does the podcasting app know about a potential 'minimum' amount required by the podcast host to display the message
17:11:03 <agatesAlecksGate> <cryptogrampy[m]> "agates (Alecks Gates):  In the..." <- That would be another value in the RSS namespace specification
17:11:19 <cryptogrampy[m]> makes sense. 
17:11:48 <agatesAlecksGate> <cryptogrampy[m]> "I like pure speculation 😁.  It..." <- I'm only thinking about the actual payment integration now.  I only brought up my payment token RFC because the topic came up :)
17:12:39 <cryptogrampy[m]> I think the token makes a lot of sense and is a very cool idea.  especially as it could be used with numerous currencies.  
17:13:19 <cryptogrampy[m]> i'd still be curious what an ideal example request looks like though :) 
17:13:43 <cryptogrampy[m]> s/an/a/, s/ideal/highly-speculative/
17:34:53 <cryptogrampy[m]> agates (Alecks Gates): it may also make sense to add message data as part of the jwt.  Not sure what the data limits are on that, but you want to make sure the data you're providing with the payment info hasn't been tampered with
17:40:58 <demitasse[m]> > <@agates:matrix.org> Is there any interest in the community for looking at how to integrate Monero into "Podcasting 2.0" (pc20) as an alternative to Bitcoin lightning?
17:40:58 <demitasse[m]> > 
17:40:58 <demitasse[m]> > I'm pretty heavily involved in the pc20 community and would love to help if there's anyone already interested, as I know the required areas of research but not how they fit into Monero
17:40:58 <demitasse[m]> i recently posted about this on reddit. I would also like to have a podcast with xmr donations like podcasting 2.0
17:42:59 <demitasse[m]> <surgeon_[m]> "And here's a funny story about..." <- this is the absolute worst. I hate the stupid anecdotes just tell me how to make the recipe
17:43:27 <cryptogrampy[m]> it's just for google SEO. 
17:44:48 <cryptogrampy[m]> imagine a search engine that actually gave the best tuna casserole recipe, not the most popular one
17:45:19 <cryptogrampy[m]> s/most/one/, s/popular/that/, s/one/hits all of the SEO requirements the best/
18:03:17 <agatesAlecksGate> <demitasse[m]> "> <@agates:matrix.org> Is..." <- We're doing it for music/videos/films too, potentially audiobooks etc.  None of it is "podcast"-centric.  Something that gets overlooked
18:18:38 <cryptogrampy[m]> <agatesAlecksGate> "We're doing it for music/videos..." <- i would consider giving a passing sideways glance at usage from a merchant web store perspective as well :) 
18:20:49 <agatesAlecksGate> cryptogrampy[m]: For RSS feeds?  Not sure it's worth it.  If you're talking about the payment token, maybe, but i don't have bandwidth to focus on it
19:08:38 <r4v3r23[m]> reading about the bip119 shitshow now
19:13:32 <cryptogrampy[m]> send links 
19:13:55 <r4v3r23[m]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAE5fOZ2Luw
19:14:13 <r4v3r23[m]> aantop explains it here
19:14:41 <r4v3r23[m]> essentially ability to white/blacklist address at the protocol level
19:14:42 <r4v3r23[m]> who could have seen this coming?
19:15:17 <r4v3r23[m]> s/aantop/aantonop/
19:28:48 <spacekitty420[m4> that's fucked, the way he mentioning the whitelist really makes me think of how easily that can be enforced to whitelist only verified CEX approved addresses
19:30:10 <spacekitty420[m4> oh, well he mentioning that now 😹
19:31:14 <spacekitty420[m4> so......
19:31:23 <spacekitty420[m4> that would also fuck up atomic swap with xmr then
19:31:58 <spacekitty420[m4> "that's not the controversy" LOL
19:42:02 <cryptogrampy[m]> Would be curious to see who/which entities are squirming the most about andres' video 
19:42:18 <sethforprivacy> What video?
19:42:38 <cryptogrampy[m]> the BIP119 video above
19:42:52 <cryptogrampy[m]> oh
19:42:55 <cryptogrampy[m]> :) 
19:42:57 <cryptogrampy[m]> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAE5fOZ2Luw
19:43:08 <r4v3r23[m]> cryptogrampy[m]: im squirming, mainly on how convoluted his explaination is
19:43:11 <cryptogrampy[m]> this is bitcoin drama hour :)
19:43:47 <cryptogrampy[m]> yeah i'm still watching.. haven't parsed it in my brain yet
19:43:51 <sethforprivacy> Thanks
19:44:05 <r4v3r23[m]> even if something like this is possible in monero, it would only affect specific addresses
19:44:14 <r4v3r23[m]> just pull a fresh subaddress and voila
19:44:27 <r4v3r23[m]> on bitcoin you could ban clusters
19:45:59 <spacekitty420[m4> if am not mistaken, eth already could ban clusters and the tokens on it like tether were already doing it
19:46:14 <r4v3r23[m]> eth had been cucked since day 1
19:46:26 <r4v3r23[m]> no surprise there
19:46:35 <spacekitty420[m4> fair x)
19:47:16 <spacekitty420[m4> and majority of crypto market is either a fork of btc or a token on ethereum so... 😹
19:47:37 <r4v3r23[m]> 🤡
20:23:23 <han-shan[m]> "and then you essentially end up with paypal"
21:18:50 <bridgerton[m]> <NFDeez> My sweet Monero Cyborg (Blockchain Crusaders) Harmony ONE NFTs
21:18:50 <bridgerton[m]> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/621366094531133461/968622196123660318/-eIrORjN.jpg
21:19:05 <bridgerton[m]> <NFDeez> theres more
21:19:05 <bridgerton[m]> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/621366094531133461/968622264532742234/Screen_Shot_2022-04-25_at_11.33.29_PM.png
21:19:33 <bridgerton[m]> <NFDeez> Kadena??
21:32:38 <monerobull[m]> Redo them with sol and double the price. Thank me by sending 5% of profits to the general fund ;)
22:12:33 <midipoet> How much is a ONE worth these days?
22:33:57 <nioc> 1 = 1
22:37:36 <plowsof[m]> luigi1112 can you edit the room title please Monero Community Workgroup Meeting: Sunday 1st May 2022 @ 18:00 UTC , thnxx 
22:38:46 <r4v3r23[m]> nioc: 1 ONE = 1 ONE
22:42:52 <luigi1112> is it not January still?
22:43:07 <luigi1112> do it thyself
22:46:10 <demitasse[m]> <cryptogrampy[m]> "the BIP119 video above" <- taintcoin is dying a slow death by a thousand papercuts
22:47:03 <nioc> congratulations to selsta the slacker on getting funded  https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/selsta-5.html
22:47:41 <cryptogrampy[m]> demitasse[m]: I think it's important to take note on this one... A lot of the issues stem from a lack of project focus and direction in Bitcoin (i.e. is it digital cash?  digital energy? an ethereum competitor?) 
22:47:51 <cryptogrampy[m]> everyone has a very different idea of what bitcoin should be
22:48:02 <r4v3r23[m]> nioc: MajesticBank: based
22:48:38 <demitasse[m]> cryptogrampy[m]: well we can all agree it should be fungible.
22:49:07 <cryptogrampy[m]> demitasse[m]: ironically it sounds like covenents move the lack of fungibility caused outside of the bitcoin blockchain directly into the chain 
22:49:16 <agatesAlecksGate> cryptogrampy[m]: At least the Bitcoin community still has voices of reason.  I've always been for Monero but the last few months have pushed me to actively contribute.  Running a public node and p2pool node now.
22:50:00 <agatesAlecksGate> Whatever happened to side chains in the BTC world?
22:50:33 <demitasse[m]> agatesAlecksGate: there's liquid and rsk, and paul sztorc has been trying to get his implementation going since like 2016
22:50:49 <cryptogrampy[m]> Yeah Paul is definitely pushing it hard still
22:51:19 <reeemuru[m]> agatesAlecksGate: woorah
22:52:41 <r4v3r23[m]> agatesAlecksGate: they are all shit and require some form of permission to peg out
22:59:28 <midipoet> do people buy those drawings for that much ONE? Jesus. 
23:13:32 <plowsof[m]> <luigi1112> "is it not January still?" <- The year is 2022 , Monero is 8 years old,  people who are graduating from university _today_ where born in 2002 , the last community meeting was in 1996
23:19:00 <nioc> plowsof[m]: you are op now and have the power to edit the title
23:19:15 <nioc> please don't let that power change you
23:21:52 <plowsof[m]> oh thanks, didn't realise 🧐
23:22:36 <luigi1112> 2002 ouch
23:32:12 <Kivojo[m]> <cheekyleeks> "jimmyt: https://gitlab.com/..." <- I hope the woke mob don't try to cancel this
23:32:52 <agatesAlecksGate> BTW, I took Seth's monerod/p2pool docker guides and adapted it to run in podman rootless containers for more security.  So far so good especially in combination with firewalld.  I've seen docker bypass software firewalls before which is no bueno
23:33:38 <Kivojo[m]> Kivojo[m]: https://matrix.to/#/#penumbra:penumbra.social
23:41:23 <jimmyt[m]> <Kivojo[m]> "I hope the woke mob don't try to..." <- Didn't the developer of Penumbra say they were opposed to working for pay? Or am I recalling that wrong?
23:41:49 <Kivojo[m]> jimmyt[m]: I'm not sure
23:42:28 <Kivojo[m]> But the system was like a "arbitrators are free to join"