02:46:14 <nioc> congrats gingeropolous , fully funded https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/gingeropolous_zenith_storage.html
05:56:44 <ajs_[m]> 50 additional tickets will be available for sale soon on monerokon.com sign up to the waiting list to get an email alert
05:57:11 <ajs_[m]> we have increased the capacity to 200
06:39:01 <rbrunner> Did you know that story of the 40 tickets bought by MajesticBank? Or did you only learn about it now, from their Reddit post?
07:20:57 <ajs_[m]> They asked about buying a large amount, but we declined the request
07:23:42 <ajs_[m]> Most tickets were purchased anonymously, so we have no idea who bought what and how many in total
07:33:51 <rbrunner> Oh my. This makes the whole thing even more ambivalent.
09:10:31 <mj-xmr[m]> 1st milestone and a Minimal Viable Product of SolOptXMR:
09:10:32 <mj-xmr[m]> https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/299#note_16590
09:10:32 <mj-xmr[m]> https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/v072o3/soloptxmr_minimum_viable_product_1st_milestone/
09:10:32 <mj-xmr[m]> Thanks for reading!
10:34:01 <msvb-web> That's excellent information mj-xmr[m], dankon. It is easy to understand from the wise choice of colours, diagrams, and charts.
10:34:11 <msvb-web> Are you going to present the information at the forthcoming Konferenco?
10:47:30 <mj-xmr[m]> <msvb-web> "Are you going to present the..." <- I'm not ready for this, but thanks for thinking about it.
10:47:30 <mj-xmr[m]> I believe I will present it once we reach all our 4 milestones. Only then it will become automated enough to present it to larger electricity producers.
10:48:59 <mj-xmr[m]> <msvb-web> "That's excellent information mj..." <- Thanks for that. The colors you see are inverted to spare your eyes. The default Python ones are even more suggestive as there the Sun plot is yellow, as one example.
10:59:06 <mj-xmr[m]> > <@mj-xmr:matrix.org> I'm not ready for this, but thanks for thinking about it.
10:59:07 <mj-xmr[m]> > I believe I will present it once we reach all our 4 milestones. Only then it will become automated enough to present it to larger electricity producers.
10:59:07 <mj-xmr[m]> Meaning, that there's little point in presenting it TWICE.
13:00:37 <plowsof[m]> There is a meeting here today https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/707
14:16:42 * ofrnxmr[m] uploaded an image: (246KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/monero.social/gDBRputsUweRmZVfCEsNrNqJ/Imagepipe_128.jpg >
14:16:54 * ofrnxmr[m] uploaded an image: (246KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/monero.social/REMSJSJAVcxfEekuXfJDbryo/Imagepipe_127.jpg >
14:18:51 <plowsof[m]> wow
14:19:44 <plowsof[m]> sech1 said 'strange' things happen over 1500 miners?
14:21:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> Maybe someone is testing that
14:21:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> Because those extra 700 miners only added 3h/s/miner 
14:22:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> On the smaller pools it looks like miners are doing 5-30h/s 
14:22:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> #allbots?
14:23:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> Which means... my 30-60h/sec miners are > average.. 🤔
14:48:26 <sech1> No, each of these 1500 miners actually mined a share in the last 72 hours
15:29:25 <gingeropolous> thank you everyone. this means a lot to me! can't wait to get it started
15:30:05 <monerobull[m]> looking for someone who wants to keep some of the more "controversial" ccs proposals in check. i cant deal with it anymore. its just people with their own ccs proposals (aka financial incentive) ganging up against critisism.
15:32:39 <monerobull[m]> * ccs proposals "in check, * in check". i
15:35:17 <ajs_[m]> I've emailed invoices to everyone on the monerokon waiting list. Your tickets are reserved for 24 hours, after which, they will be release to the public for purchase. If you didn't get an email, check your spam box.
15:41:03 <orly_owl> tick tock!
15:52:50 <mj-xmr[m]> <monerobull[m]> "looking for someone who wants to..." <- Go ahead and criticize me :)
15:53:11 <monerobull[m]> you did solxmr, right?
15:53:24 <mj-xmr[m]> All the criticism I ever get is from WelfarePrussia, which is far from being constructive.
15:53:29 <mj-xmr[m]> monerobull[m]: Yep
15:54:41 <mj-xmr[m]> <gingeropolous> "thank you everyone. this means a..." <- Thank you for your help / service and reaching out to your users :)
15:55:49 <monerobull[m]> yeah no, awesome proposal.
15:56:31 <monerobull[m]> i just didnt interact with it because i dont know much about solar power
15:58:31 <mj-xmr[m]> With that Hong Kong guy's proposal, I feel you. I really don't want to add insult to the wound there, as he maybe didn't deserve it from me, but it all sounds shady.
15:59:28 <plowsof[m]> will k's first proposal 'promised the world' - he was then seen later in the monero dev channel asking how to detect outputs that belong to a wallet 
15:59:46 <mj-xmr[m]> What annoyed me though was that he compares my budget with his, while our is divided into two, and doesn't contain the additional XMR component of the same USD value as the USD component itself. Therefore making his budget per person 4 TIMES LARGER.
16:00:13 <plowsof[m]> and generally quite combative / aggressive / insulting to other contributors 
16:00:13 <mj-xmr[m]> plowsof[m]: Simple. Download the wallet from bitcoincore.org
16:00:53 <mj-xmr[m]> plowsof[m]: It's their cultural thing. As soon as these types reach some level of power (I'm a manager), they tend to abuse it.
16:01:12 <plowsof[m]> but i have said to other people that we still owe him something for creating the 'let me speak to management' meme 
16:01:12 <mj-xmr[m]> Not a real anarchistic type at all.
16:01:54 <mj-xmr[m]> plowsof[m]: Oh yeah. That for sure. I'd give my 10 hard earned XMRs for that, but his proposals just can't seem to get merged ... I think I HAVE TO call the management about it.
16:04:24 <mj-xmr[m]> mj-xmr[m]: This also reminds me of how China boosts their GDP "on paper" via construction of (ultimately) "ghost cities".
16:05:34 <mj-xmr[m]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under-occupied_developments_in_China
16:05:39 <mj-xmr[m]> "A common assumption by foreign media is that local officials are strictly incentivized to start construction on this newly created urban land to boost GDP growth and look good within the Party. However, Wade Shepard points out many places which started becoming ghost cities were under the jurisdiction of an area with already strong GDP growth. He argues that these developments are seen as an investment for the future and promote
16:05:40 <mj-xmr[m]> development with timescales of over 20 years.[4]"
16:05:59 <mj-xmr[m]> But nevermind that.
16:09:05 <monerobull[m]> i just dont really want to deal with the slander of "ohhh maybe youll doxx customers if you are in a bad mood"
16:09:57 <mj-xmr[m]> I don't know the details of this, so I can only hope that it was a big misunderstanding.
16:10:43 <mj-xmr[m]> Anyway, I saw your last comment. It was indeed time to back off.
16:10:49 <mj-xmr[m]> and carry on :)
16:12:44 <mj-xmr[m]> I mean, that Will k proposal looks shady enough already anyway. I THINK nobody wants to say it loudly.
16:16:36 <monerobull[m]> not even apple blocks you from opening the debug consol on their website :P
16:24:11 <mj-xmr[m]> <monerobull[m]> "not even apple blocks you from..." <- I see you liked my little joke :)
16:24:49 <mj-xmr[m]> "UHM. What's wrong with my browser? Too much porn lately or sth.?
16:26:08 <plowsof[m]> serhack is the only payment processor dev we need but do not deserve 
16:26:22 <plowsof[m]> and moneropay!
16:26:41 <plowsof[m]> ... and hotshop for point of sale situations!
16:26:46 <monerobull[m]> yes all of those
16:27:23 <plowsof[m]> and custom solutions like ShadowCart !
16:27:39 <monerobull[m]> yes yes
16:29:42 <plowsof[m]> we even have a "rust cart" accept-xmr from busyboredom ^_^ 
16:31:26 <plowsof[m]> if someone wanted to 'integrate monero into a vending machine' as a smaller ccs im sure that would get alot of support (e.g. for a monerokon event) 
16:34:42 <plowsof[m]> Hello! meeting in 1.5 hours https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/707
17:26:08 <ooo123ooo1234567> > <@mj-xmr:matrix.org> 1st milestone and a Minimal Viable Product of SolOptXMR:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/62c1c4e1b62a0742840f558edba888a7d3adaf58)
17:33:04 <sech1> and this "1 week" estimate you pulled from where? How to verify your "1 week"?
17:58:52 <ooo123ooo1234567> <sech1> "and this "1 week" estimate you..." <- sech1, if even you will protect this scammer, then I have no idea what I'm doing here
17:59:15 <mj-xmr[m]> <ooo123ooo1234567> "> <@mj-xmr:matrix.org> 1st..." <- Care to answer sech1 's question before I extend my ignore list again?
17:59:42 <sech1> If you criticize, take time to substantiate your claims too
18:00:06 <rbrunner> "then I have no idea what I'm doing here" exactly
18:01:24 <mj-xmr[m]> Including all the CI work, that I had to do only once, it were more than 2 weeks, but I'm not bitching about it. It was my risk of poor estimation.
18:01:34 <mj-xmr[m]> Anyway, I want to have a nice meeting now. Begone.
18:02:03 <plowsof[m]> Alot of activity here, just in time for the meeting :D https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/707
18:02:20 <plowsof[m]> 2. Greetings 
18:02:21 <msvb-web> Hello.
18:02:24 <plowsof[m]> Hello everyone!
18:02:42 <binarybaron[m]> Hello
18:02:42 <spackle_xmr[m]> Hello
18:02:43 <monerobull[m]> Hi
18:02:48 <Morpheus[m]> Hi
18:02:51 <selsta> hi
18:03:24 <plowsof[m]> Thanks for joining us, lets just go over some of the events that happened since the last meeting ~2 weeks ago 
18:03:31 <Rucknium[m]> Hi
18:03:53 <plowsof[m]> the usual news sources: News: [Monero Observer](https://www.monero.observer/) - [Monero Moon](https://www.themoneromoon.com/) - [Revuo Monero](https://revuo-xmr.com/) - [The Monero Standard](https://localmonero.co/nojs/the-monero-standard/)
18:04:26 <plowsof[m]> Firstly i just wanted to thank SethForPrivacy for helping with the HF with simple [testnet monerod nodes](https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/utzyyz/help_test_out_the_upcoming_monero_network_upgrade/) and he made a [BTCpay server guide](https://sethforprivacy.com/guides/accepting-monero-via-btcpay-server/) for Monero
18:05:12 <plowsof[m]> Ditatompel adds 'fee estimate' to [node list](https://www.ditatompel.com/monero/remote-node)
18:06:34 <plowsof[m]> -[Monero.fail](https://monero.fail) adds 'Web compatible' (usable for browser wallets such as HotShop 
18:07:12 <plowsof[m]> and p2pool has been growing, ALOT 
18:07:18 <plowsof[m]> we even have XMR<->ETH [Atomic swaps on stagenet](https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/ux6lzk/ethxmr_atomic_swap_development_update_live_on/)
18:07:42 <plowsof[m]> RINO willing to partly fund an audit for multisig fix [#8149](https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/8149)
18:08:48 <plowsof[m]> "web compatible" column in monero.fail for website wallets.. there has been alot of news in the last 2 weeks. would anyone like  to talk about anything on their minds?
18:09:10 <monerobull[m]> Majestic bank kinda goofed up 
18:09:26 <msvb-web> Rino is looking very good, especially for those of us who prefer not using web wallets but want the convenience.
18:10:07 <plowsof[m]> Majestic bank giving away 40 free tickets to Monerokon 
18:11:08 <monerobull[m]> They have good intentions but they executed it without putting much thought into it
18:11:57 <plowsof[m]> Hopefully Monerokon has a great turnout. The events team are nothing but professional in their planning 
18:12:49 <plowsof[m]> will jump into ccs ideas if no one wishes to bring some events up 
18:13:29 <monerobull[m]> I am once again asking for the closure of Afghanistan expansion strategy ccs
18:14:43 <plowsof[m]> noted. spirobel is currently reinventing that proposal / resubmitting it i believe, so we await the new one. (will touch on it again later)
18:15:54 <plowsof[m]> We have binarybaron and morpheus with us i believe to discuss their current proposals 
18:16:00 <plowsof[m]> 4. [CCS updates](https://ccs.getmonero.org/)
18:16:29 <Morpheus[m]> Yep I'm here guys
18:16:29 <plowsof[m]> [Moneroj.net improvements, articles and maintenance (3 months)](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/
18:16:34 <binarybaron[m]> Me too
18:16:40 <plowsof[m]> Thanks!
18:16:53 <plowsof[m]> lets discuss moneroj.net first 
18:16:59 <plowsof[m]> thje proposal has changed slightly 
18:17:20 <plowsof[m]> Morpheus has created 10 new charts from his CCS list, and also split it in half as a sign of good faith. so if the new proposal is funded, a 2nd one would be made for further work.
18:17:51 <plowsof[m]> sorry , here is the link to the proposal https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/318
18:18:14 <monerobull[m]> Morpheus: is there any way the site could get speed up with more funding? Some charts take quite some time to load
18:18:44 <Morpheus[m]> Yes, I intend to use a better server, and I need funding to spend some time working on the database
18:19:14 <Morpheus[m]> The website should take less than a second to load when everything is done
18:19:26 <selsta> is the amount 35 or 70?
18:19:27 <Rucknium[m]> Morpheus: You mention that having an onion hidden service would be difficult. In my experience, it is quite easy. Just adjust some config options in NGINX and get `tor` running. SethForPrivacy has a guide on his blog. I think you may be able to do it without much additional work.
18:19:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> "New server, fix bugs, loading speed, improve the interface and build new charts
18:19:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> I need to invest into a new, improved and faster server;
18:19:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> "
18:20:11 <Morpheus[m]> Rucknium[m]: Cool, I can try that too in the future. Can I talk to you about this when It's time?
18:20:26 <Morpheus[m]> I would like some tips too
18:20:32 <plowsof[m]> amount is now 35 - with a 2nd proposal for another 35 after 1st complete
18:21:12 <sethforprivacy> Morpheus[m]: Ping me when the time comes, happy to help you get a hidden service setup 🙂
18:21:23 <plowsof[m]> ooo123 don't worry we are discussing jeffros ccsd, after the atomic swaps gui
18:21:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> Is the proposal split? Or a second proposal is a new proposal 
18:21:43 <Morpheus[m]> sethforprivacy: I'll certainly ping you. Thanks a lot
18:22:34 <plowsof[m]> i suggested to split it into 2 proposals if the community had an issue with a 1st ccs being for higher amounts
18:22:48 <selsta> is it a static website?
18:22:54 <escapethe3ra[m]> Morpheus: you can also ping me if Seth is busy at the time, I recently created a hidden service for MO and can help as well
18:23:01 <plowsof[m]> if 1st proposal is funded and everyone is happy, the 2nd proposal would also be funded 
18:23:14 <Rucknium[m]> Morpheus: Sure, no problem. My other comments are that the website seems quite focused on Monero as a speculative investment. That's not my cup of tea, but I know that it is some people's cups of tea, so it's OK I suppose. Also, I think you refer to Gresham's law in the text of the website, but misapply it IMHO.
18:23:42 <monerobull[m]> Rucknium[m]: The charts make me feel better about buying xmr lmao
18:23:55 <Morpheus[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: I split the original into two so people would be more comfortable. This is the first one, and it is about half the work of the original. Dont know if I'm being clear
18:24:11 <Rucknium[m]> Gresham's law deals with the case when the face value of coinage is the same but the coinage has different metal content value.
18:24:56 <monerobull[m]> Is there no other meaning?
18:24:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> At current prices, 35 and 70xmr is still a lot. (6-12k)
18:24:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> Would this require constant funding ?
18:25:12 <plowsof[m]> selsta : at the moment it is javascript site, but morpheus has attempted to reduce the amount of js required? 
18:25:13 <selsta> shouldn't we be careful with darknet related statistics?
18:25:27 <Morpheus[m]> escapethe3ra[m]: Thanks, I love your work
18:25:46 <monerobull[m]> selsta: It's arguably our niche
18:26:19 <Morpheus[m]> selsta: I run python to calculate the charts on the backend
18:26:34 <monerobull[m]> Morpheus: do you know any markets that currently accept ZCash?
18:27:26 <plowsof[m]> to clarify , you are asking for 35 xmr now. and then you will make another ccs of 35 xmr in the future?
18:27:26 <Morpheus[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> At current prices, 35 and 70xmr is still a lot. (6-12k)
18:27:26 <Morpheus[m]> > 
18:27:26 <Morpheus[m]> > Would this require constant funding ?
18:27:26 <Morpheus[m]> No.. it's just because I have to put a lot of time to build the charts, after they are ready, the server costs are small
18:28:11 <Morpheus[m]> plowsof[m]: Yes, that's the idea, because there will still be a lot of work ahead if people want more data on the website, or more improvements
18:28:57 <selsta> I still think we should be careful with darknet related stats
18:29:42 <selsta> but the core team has to decide that in the end if they are ok with funding something like that on the CCS
18:30:02 <Morpheus[m]> selsta: I believe my mission is to provide information. The website should be transparent in that sense
18:30:06 <monerobull[m]> People who feel like they need to use the markets should know only xmr is safe
18:30:25 <Morpheus[m]> But I can understand your view, sure
18:30:57 <selsta> Morpheus[m]: yes, but if you directly or indirectly link to darknet markets this can cause issues if it's funded by the monero community
18:31:01 <Morpheus[m]> monerobull[m]: No, xD not yet
18:31:32 <monerobull[m]> selsta: Doesn't he just show dread subscribers?
18:31:46 <selsta> I'm going by what is says in the proposal
18:31:55 <selsta> Darknet adoption (DN markets, seft reported);
18:32:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> This is only for 45 days?
18:32:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> I have to vote no.
18:32:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> - same proposal but basically forced a second.
18:32:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> - rates are higher than researcher rates
18:32:46 <Morpheus[m]> selsta: Ah, ok, I understant now. Yeah, I wont lilnk anything about darknet on the website.
18:33:05 <mj-xmr[m]> selsta: So far the "regulators" have been really easy on us for some reason.
18:33:06 <selsta> there were websites that were raided that just linked to darknet markets
18:33:09 <Morpheus[m]> The only DN chart I built is about forum users, so that's ok I think
18:33:23 <selsta> the operators were raided to be precise
18:33:36 <monerobull[m]> 0.o
18:33:57 <Morpheus[m]> Yeah, you guys are right. I wont build the darknet markets chart, just leave the one I already built, which is about users on a Forum
18:34:06 <mj-xmr[m]> selsta: It's very important that you make us all aware of this.
18:34:40 <selsta> Morpheus[m]: what would be your hourly rate?
18:34:45 <monerobull[m]> Well linking to the .onion ala dark.fail is way different than having a chart that says alphabay: 500 vendors
18:34:53 <Morpheus[m]> selsta: Yeah, I can remove that. No problem.
18:35:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> selsta: About 1xmr per day, excluding weekends 
18:37:02 <selsta> ofrnxmr[m]: seems to be higehr than 1xmr
18:37:26 <selsta> it would be nice if you could more clearly write down the rate and hours planned to work per month
18:37:52 <selsta> unless i overread it
18:37:58 <Morpheus[m]> selsta: Being honest, I am already working 8 hours a day on this, because I have a lot of free time. For example I built 5 charts this week and worked yesterday the whole day, so I'm calculating around 6 hours a day at 21 usd / hour I think
18:38:31 <plowsof[m]> I think we have brought up all the relevant points for this proposal? (needs more discussion / input from core it seems ) we have 2 more to discuss 
18:38:56 <Morpheus[m]> Something around that. 5 hours a day isn't that hard for me, because I like working on my project
18:39:06 <selsta> Morpheus[m]: ok, would be great if you could clarify it in the CCS and so that it is possible to see how you calculated the 35 XMR
18:39:26 <Morpheus[m]> Ok, no problem
18:39:45 <plowsof[m]> Right binarybaron 
18:40:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> Thats on 7 days per week.
18:40:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> 5 days Lee week is 34/hr
18:40:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> Per*
18:41:14 <Morpheus[m]> As I said, I work on weekends because that's something I like to do
18:41:53 <Morpheus[m]> Today I worked the whole morning, uploaded the new charts, etc
18:42:15 <plowsof[m]> This can be clarified and discussed again shortly. (the rates and such) lets move on to the other proposal. Thank you for taking the feedback on board Morpheus 
18:42:26 <Morpheus[m]> ok
18:42:34 <plowsof[m]> [XMR BTC Atomic Swaps Desktop GUI - Continued development](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/321) | [reddit thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/uybc5n/ccs_proposal_xmrbtc_atomic_swaps_gui_desktop_app/)  
18:42:43 <monerobull[m]> Move
18:42:45 <monerobull[m]> Forward
18:43:29 <plowsof[m]> my 2 cents : As an outsider who has not used atomic swaps, i have only seen the support questions.. the thing where you have to 'do something' before 'x blocks / time' or you lose your funds because 'something happened' (e.g. technical issue or alice doesnt have enough funds). The process is not noob friendly at all.
18:43:29 <plowsof[m]> Part of the proposal is to tackle this issue so the cancel / refund will be made much easier. (people will be able to do it using the GUI / see a warning / timer)
18:43:53 <plowsof[m]> this is a 'new' proposal but has alot of updoots on reddit 
18:45:51 <ajs_[m]> wasn't atomic swaps abandoned by the comit team?
18:45:53 <plowsof[m]> i was assured that it would 'work' after the hard fork. but one thing we must consider is that comit is officially 'not maintained' 
18:46:00 <selsta> ajs_[m]: yes, that's what i thought too
18:46:17 <monerobull[m]> Doesn't binarybaron maintain it with 2 others
18:46:18 <plowsof[m]> and this proposal is 4 months funding into the future 
18:46:20 <monerobull[m]> Unpaid
18:46:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> 150xmr for an interface
18:46:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> is comparable to haveno
18:46:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> But the backend isnt maintained and this is only maintenance 
18:46:47 <plowsof[m]> in the ccs proposal they state 5% or so of time may be fore actuall pull requests to the 'swap_cli'
18:46:52 <ajs_[m]> https://github.com/comit-network/xmr-btc-swap/commits/master
18:47:45 <plowsof[m]> are we funding a gui for an abandonned project when we could fund him to make a gui for 'farcaster' ? is my only concern 
18:48:38 <monerobull[m]> Just curious but did Farcaster do anything in the last 6 months? 
18:48:45 <selsta> yes https://github.com/farcaster-project/farcaster-node/commits/main
18:49:25 <monerobull[m]> Ok 👌
18:49:34 <ajs_[m]> they are presenting stuff at monerokon
18:50:20 <ajs_[m]> and have a workshop on using farcaster
18:50:27 <plowsof[m]> binarybaron assures that the atomic swaps are functional though and will continue to be after the hard fork , its just a concern about its 'not maintained status' - but the popularity of the proposal / people willing to donate is clear
18:51:37 <selsta> how dependent would the gui be on swap-cli from comit?
18:52:00 <ajs_[m]> could it work on farcaster?
18:52:40 <plowsof[m]> good question(s) will pass these on to baron 
18:53:35 <plowsof[m]> the meeting might extend passed the hour to discuss the jeffro proposal (if we have devs in here to discuss it)
18:53:44 <selsta> also for his CCS it would be good to write down the rate and approx worked hours per week
18:54:05 <plowsof[m]> more clarification of rates again, yep
18:54:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> I dont think we should be funding a ui for a separate project that is dead/unmaintained and mostly benefits people that need to get rid of dirty bitcoin 
18:54:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> If a ui for farcaster, then you can compare to haveno.
18:54:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> But if comit is in limbo..
18:54:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> 37xmr/month to maintain an existing up
18:55:12 <plowsof[m]> ok lets take the gloves off and let oo123  jump into the jeffro proposal. he has been very patient 
18:56:05 <plowsof[m]> [jeffro256: part-time dev work 2022Q3](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/319)  
18:56:47 <selsta> support from my side, with focus on gui, rpc, protocol spec
18:57:28 <plowsof[m]> oo123 , if you consider point number 10 to be the most controversial, we have assurance that he is gong to 'leave it alone' / not do drastic changes 'just because' 
18:57:55 <plowsof[m]> i would love if jeffro focussed on the gui with selsta / community node list
19:02:20 <plowsof[m]> damn, thanks mj !
19:03:00 <mj-xmr[m]> jeff vs oo000.
19:03:00 <mj-xmr[m]> Fight.
19:03:48 <plowsof[m]> Thank you all for joining btw, we're just waiting for everyone to voice their concerns on jeffros proposal. MoneroObserver put up their proposal today also.
19:04:39 <ooo123ooo1234567> > <@mj-xmr:matrix.org> 1st milestone and a Minimal Viable Product of SolOptXMR:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/27591763725baf154604a624eed2b4b5f16a0292)
19:04:53 <ooo123ooo1234567>  * What was the hardest / the most time consuming part in that work ? What's the nutshell of that work ? What would be included into mvp without fluff to simulate working hours ?
19:05:02 <plowsof[m]> :( ok thats not about jeffro 
19:05:14 <ooo123ooo1234567> > <@mj-xmr:matrix.org> 1st milestone and a Minimal Viable Product of SolOptXMR:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/4a82a022ec7a5498766d23f9e916c745eccf8c69)
19:05:26 <ooo123ooo1234567> And the same steps for the next milestones ?
19:05:36 <mj-xmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: They were all pretty hard. There were just a few easy parts.
19:05:36 <mj-xmr[m]> I don't understand the 2nd part of your question.
19:06:16 <mj-xmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: Yes. There's a Quickstart section in the README.md from the start for a reason. Have you tried?
19:06:41 <ooo123ooo1234567> mj-xmr[m]: Ok, can pull steps from README.md and put them into list under your proposal ?
19:06:47 <ooo123ooo1234567> So that anyone can verify what you've done
19:06:52 <ooo123ooo1234567> now and any time later
19:07:17 <ooo123ooo1234567> And learn from you how to simulate 96 hours from few python libs
19:07:32 <mj-xmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: Always the same way - run the quickstart steps. I care about documenting my stuff and I'm happy for a constrictive criticism.
19:07:45 <ooo123ooo1234567> Your fiction literature docs leave for incompetent people who will read/write/or even use that code
19:07:59 <ooo123ooo1234567> * who will not read/write/or even
19:07:59 <mj-xmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: No, thanks. Be a manager of your own project.
19:08:19 <mj-xmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: Aye. Continue living in a DisneyLand.
19:08:20 <ooo123ooo1234567> mj-xmr[m]: community proposals are supposed to be verifiable
19:08:26 <mj-xmr[m]> Mine is.
19:08:42 <ooo123ooo1234567> mj-xmr[m]: List concrete steps under your proposal, ideally with hours split
19:08:43 <plowsof[m]> Unrelated but : NFC is cool msvb-labs is knowledgeable on this, had some great discussions the other day. (also monerujo has nfc functions), cryptogrampy is busy with hotshop :D
19:08:46 <mj-xmr[m]> OK guys, just tell me when you want to switch subject :)
19:08:50 <cryptogrampy[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: WOULD ENJOY SOME STIMULATION OF MY PYTHON LIB
19:09:05 <cryptogrampy[m]> sorry hi I'm here at this meeting
19:09:24 <msvb-web> If there are questions about implementing NFC interactions in hardware, I will try to answer.
19:09:27 <mj-xmr[m]> oh hi! How's life? :)
19:09:49 <ooo123ooo1234567> mj-xmr[m]: Don't jump from topic
19:10:21 <mj-xmr[m]> I don't want to be annoying, but I think you don't realize, that you're attracting a bit too much attention now.
19:10:24 <cryptogrampy[m]> NFC instant payment is a nogo for HotShop FYI.  discussed with a couple people and wallet 1's viewkey/primary will not be able to generate an offline unsigned tx for wallet 2 (customer) to sign offline and send back via NFC for monero technical reasons
19:10:25 <ooo123ooo1234567> python is the easiest language, there are many people who can code in it; please, describe how to verify your work; others want to learn
19:10:38 <plowsof[m]> would you benefit from a developer 'mocking' up the workflow of a monero transaction using an NFC badge msvb-labs , or , are the steps involved known? 
19:10:48 <cryptogrampy[m]> wallet 1 would need wallet 2's primary/view key to generate an unsigned payment
19:11:46 <monerobull[m]>   Before I go through the hassle of submitting a proposal, would anyone support giving me 15 xmr to subsidize 100 1.75kg boxes of stickers? Right now there are only 5 more subsidized packages available 🥺
19:11:49 <cryptogrampy[m]> If anyone can get luigi1111  on the phone though, Milestone 2 is complete- i'd like to have the payment go to my grandson's monero address.  I've been getting some amazing feedback for completing Milestone 3. 
19:11:53 <mj-xmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: OK. I verify it by monitoring the battery drain. If you are presented with a solution that shows you, that the battery charge goes below it's declared minimum, then I failed my milestone.
19:13:03 <msvb-web> I would not benefit from that plowsof[m], no.
19:13:05 <mj-xmr[m]> cryptogrampy[m]: I usually text him directly on such issues. He reacts after max 2 days.
19:13:23 <cryptogrampy[m]> plowsof[m]: no, there's literally no way for a PoS to generate an unsigned tx for someone's random offline wallet without some custodial magic involved, or someone learning the view key of the customer.
19:13:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> monerobull[m]: Open a proposal for 70xmr 
19:13:57 <monerobull[m]> The way of the ccs kek
19:14:55 <plowsof[m]> ok i think we can call the meeting over at 15~ mins passed the hour, apologies as we still have some loose ends to tie up , thank you all for attending 
19:14:59 <ooo123ooo1234567> mj-xmr[m]: Concrete steps under each milestone how to verify that it was reached; not here, in your proposal
19:15:21 <mj-xmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: OK.
19:15:53 <cryptogrampy[m]> If anyone has HotShop recommendations though- that they would like to see added into Milestone 3 release, please feel free to ping me. 
19:16:20 <cryptogrampy[m]> I would still really appreciate it if anyone could get a web-compatible public node up and running.  *cough* Seth For Privacy  *cough*
19:16:57 <mj-xmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/299#note_16611
19:17:12 <cryptogrampy[m]> https TLS + rpc-access-control-origins=* in your node config.  
19:17:47 <ooo123ooo1234567> mj-xmr[m]: Concrete steps for each milestone without recursion or any links
19:17:56 <plowsof[m]> meeting adjourned, i can now go back to reading reddit and watching youtube and get  popcorn to read ooo123 , my guilty pleasure 
19:17:58 <ooo123ooo1234567> s/recursion or//
19:18:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> Is https working ok for you? Or did you have to use Arleta's master-beta
19:18:04 <ooo123ooo1234567>  * self-contained concrete steps for each milestone without any links
19:18:08 <mj-xmr[m]> I don't repeat myself.
19:18:09 <cryptogrampy[m]> * node config.  Tor nodes only need the rpc-access-control-origin=* flag- please don't add https to your tor node.
19:18:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> Selsta
19:18:52 <plowsof[m]> so an NFC badge ... would need to 'give' its view key when swiping..
19:18:58 <cryptogrampy[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: hard to say.  I haven't seen any crazy stuff with leaking memory usage or CPU, but I have had to restart the node a couple times.
19:19:10 <cryptogrampy[m]> I'm using the regular node
19:19:10 <plowsof[m]> the PoS would need to... ok im lost 
19:19:41 <cryptogrampy[m]> i did try building selstas with some modifications to seth's dockerfile to no avail.  have to look a little closer i guess
19:19:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> cryptogrampy[m]: Yeah, after I would make a few https connections my node would stop accepting connections and would have to restart 
19:19:44 <msvb-web> Good meeting and great moderation plowsof[m], dankon.
19:20:02 <SerHack> Thanks for the meeting
19:20:08 <selsta> ofrnxmr[m]: yes?
19:20:25 <selsta> for now i'm not sure about the security implications of running with `rpc-access-control-origin=*´ so I don't have it on my nodes
19:20:45 <Morpheus[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "Open a proposal for 70xmr..." <- What do you recomend I do? I'll indeed put as many hours into it as possible, and I'll probably deliver way mone than what is in the proposal. I'm fine with criticism, that's good. Do you happen to like my work? 
19:20:45 <mj-xmr[m]> msvb-web: Yes thanks. Love that proto-German too.
19:20:53 <cryptogrampy[m]> plowsof[m]: in the nfc situation- the PoS needs access to the customer's view key in order to scan and export incoming outputs, which the offline wallet uses to export key images, 
19:21:14 <ooo123ooo1234567> > <@mj-xmr:matrix.org> 1st milestone and a Minimal Viable Product of SolOptXMR:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/58f2e6e7a52338a450a35f496185f318c73a9459)
19:21:31 <ooo123ooo1234567>  * How to verify it ? Where are concrete steps for each milestone ? Goal of project must be verifiable without links to solution. It's like saying this proof of theorem is correct since proof itself  says it.
19:21:41 <Morpheus[m]> ofrnxmr: Can I private message you?
19:21:41 <cryptogrampy[m]> and that's time consuming and bad privacy.  maybe there's some woo woo handwavey magic that Seraphis can do 
19:21:48 <Morpheus[m]> So I dont spam here xD
19:22:27 <mj-xmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: Question to anybody else:
19:22:28 <mj-xmr[m]> Would you like to have instructions from me, apart from the Quickstart, that would help you verifying my milestone?
19:23:02 <mj-xmr[m]> If so, then please text me anytime.
19:23:13 <monerobull[m]> > <@mj-xmr:matrix.org> Question to anybody else:
19:23:14 <monerobull[m]> > Would you like to have instructions from me, apart from the Quickstart, that would help you verifying my milestone?
19:23:14 <monerobull[m]> Honestly, don't waste your time
19:24:06 <monerobull[m]> Btw did the German translation ever get paid out?
19:25:31 <ooo123ooo1234567> > <@mj-xmr:matrix.org> Question to anybody else:
19:25:31 <ooo123ooo1234567> > Would you like to have instructions from me, apart from the Quickstart, that would help you verifying my milestone?
19:25:31 <ooo123ooo1234567> luigi1111, how will you verify 1st milestone without any instructions ? Can you disclose ?
19:26:00 <mj-xmr[m]> (hint: they're in the quickstart)
19:27:41 <ooo123ooo1234567> <monerobull[m]> "i just didnt interact with it..." <- you don't support spirobel proposal, willk proposal, but support this scammer; facepalm
19:28:23 <mj-xmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: I think he meant to say: if I have nothing to say, I don't jab.
19:28:26 <monerobull[m]> I like the idea, i have no ideas about the tech that's why I didn't comment on the proposal itself
19:28:35 <monerobull[m]> s/ideas/idea/
19:28:51 <ooo123ooo1234567> <monerobull[m]> "i just dont really want to..." <- But supporting this scammer "https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-research-lab/20220519#c97621"
19:28:55 <sethforprivacy> <cryptogrampy[m]> "I would still really appreciate..." <- Shit
19:29:05 <sethforprivacy> Will try to get it figured out tonight or tomorrow!
19:29:47 <monerobull[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: Dude, no idea in too tired. Had enough beef today
19:30:01 <monerobull[m]> * Dude, no idea im too tired. Had enough beef today
19:30:47 <ooo123ooo1234567> monerobull[m]: The problem with proposals is lack of verification, not who is doing and what.
19:31:24 <cryptogrampy[m]> sethforprivacy: one of my goals in life is to be a stickynote on your desktop
19:32:11 <mj-xmr[m]> I think that something is wrong with the minds of the kids these days.
19:32:11 <mj-xmr[m]> You write a working product, you write a comprehensive documentation, you share the source, yet their brains still have no ways of comprehending what's before their very eyes. 
19:32:12 <monerobull[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: Tell me about it. I made a whole new proposal about translating a bunch of stuff only to discover someone finished it 3 months prior but never had his work merged and didn't get paid out
19:34:16 <monerobull[m]> https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/wobole-german-translation-subtitles.html
19:34:25 <monerobull[m]> Still stuck in limbo
19:34:51 <selsta> the was this whole problem with translators scamming using machine translations
19:34:59 <monerobull[m]> And nobody can give me a moderator account to finally merge that shit
19:35:29 <monerobull[m]> I'd proofread that shit for free
19:35:45 <selsta> i did read it and it was trash
19:35:49 <luigi1111> Translations is its own thing for sure 
19:35:51 <selsta> but don't know if it's the same one you linked
19:36:15 <monerobull[m]> The German looked good from what little I saw
19:36:54 <ooo123ooo1234567> monerobull[m]: And in ideal case you must get at least part reward for all mistakes or full reward if that's machine translation
19:37:03 <ooo123ooo1234567> The same with this scammer: define how to verify your work
19:37:51 <selsta> verifying machine translations to see if CCS is done correctly is more work than submitting machine translations
19:37:56 <ooo123ooo1234567> The same with haveno frontend: define how to verify that work
19:38:16 <ooo123ooo1234567> And those who can do work faster and correctly must get full reward
19:38:43 <mj-xmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: Define "correctly"
19:38:56 <ooo123ooo1234567> What's the purpose to verify work of scammer if luigi1111 approve it anyway without any punishment
19:38:58 <monerobull[m]> Anyways, if someone manages to dig up whoever admins the translation panel, pm me
19:39:28 <selsta> monerobull[m]: and the person behind it is gone?
19:39:41 <ooo123ooo1234567> mj-xmr[m]: It must be defined before any proposal get any funding; facepalm;
19:39:53 <monerobull[m]> selsta: They finished their work 3 months ago, what are they supposed to do?
19:39:58 <ooo123ooo1234567> mj-xmr[m]: If goal of proposal is not verifiable then it's obvious corruption
19:40:03 <monerobull[m]> Or maybe 4 at this point
19:40:21 <mj-xmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: Define what have you tried to prove me wrong.
19:40:43 <luigi1111> selsta: I think it was wobole
19:40:47 <ooo123ooo1234567> mj-xmr[m]: Specify concrete steps to verify each milestone
19:40:56 <luigi1111> Not sure what happened to translations though
19:40:57 <monerobull[m]> luigi1111: Yeah
19:41:02 <mj-xmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: Execute steps in Quickstart.
19:41:05 <monerobull[m]> The translation is there
19:41:13 <monerobull[m]> It just needs to be approved
19:41:31 <monerobull[m]> But that is done through some stupid upvote process
19:41:34 <luigi1111> Does wobole not care about it?
19:42:12 <ooo123ooo1234567> mj-xmr[m]: Copy&paste full quickstart then
19:42:33 <ooo123ooo1234567> > <@mj-xmr:matrix.org> Execute steps in Quickstart.
19:42:33 <ooo123ooo1234567>  * Full quickstart ? then copy&paste it completely
19:42:34 <monerobull[m]> What is he supposed to do without reviewers
19:43:03 <mj-xmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: No. It belongs to the project. If you want to verify the project, you have already checked out its README.md anyway. Go there.
19:44:02 <mj-xmr[m]> I've created a tag for the delivered milestone, so that the newest Quickstart version don't derail against the presented milestone.
19:44:41 <mj-xmr[m]> Have you ever had a job in IT? Or any other?
19:45:56 <mj-xmr[m]> OK. Enough of this childsplay. If somebody wants to talk like men, I'm open for a constructive discussion.
19:45:57 <mj-xmr[m]> And you should create another alias. 
19:47:25 <ooo123ooo1234567> mj-xmr[m]: if there are two implementations, how to check which one is better ?
19:47:53 <ooo123ooo1234567> > <@mj-xmr:matrix.org> OK. Enough of this childsplay. If somebody wants to talk like men, I'm open for a constructive discussion.
19:47:53 <ooo123ooo1234567> > 
19:47:53 <ooo123ooo1234567> > And you should create another alias.
19:47:53 <ooo123ooo1234567> You mean this language: https://rekt.news/
19:48:03 <ooo123ooo1234567>  * You mean this language: https://rekt.news/ ?
20:03:48 <luigi1111> monerobull[m] Pursue some I guess. I didn't hear anything about it though. Also trx manager was supposed to help with that but he seems to have disappeared (?)
20:25:40 <luigi1112> <ooo123ooo1234567> What's the purpose to verify work of scammer if luigi1111 approve it anyway without any punishment <= in the case of hourly work, it's not very straightforward to verify. A reasonable approach is evaluation at end of period and determining "hey this was worth the money let's renew" or not. Historically devs have been more or less "auto-renew" if rate wasn't egregious; this obviously doesn't work so well if there's a 
20:25:40 <luigi1112> significant issue.
20:26:47 <ooo123ooo1234567> <sech1> "and this "1 week" estimate you..." <- "https://github.com/mj-xmr" from github activity since 19 May
20:28:30 <sech1> there is a lot of activity there
20:28:36 <sech1> what am I supposed to look at?
20:28:50 <ooo123ooo1234567> sech1: count number of non-gray squares
20:29:24 <sech1> they are all non-gray after May 19
20:31:09 <ooo123ooo1234567> sech1: That isn't 2 weeks if that work is hourly paid
20:31:38 <ooo123ooo1234567> And at the same time this scammer is doing some "maintenance" of monero repo; with 30h/week
20:32:59 <ooo123ooo1234567> <luigi1112> "<ooo123ooo1234567> What's the..." <- Obvious conclusion: CCS mustn't be paid by hours, since it's impossible to verify; Is it possible to setup competition for hours spent on something ? I suppose the most incompetent charlatan will win it
20:33:56 <ooo123ooo1234567> <luigi1112> "<ooo123ooo1234567> What's the..." <- This rate based payments underestimate work of those are doing hard problems and allows abuse by incompetent people, since spent time isn't verifiable thing.
20:34:20 <ooo123ooo1234567> s/doing/solving/
20:34:54 <selsta> that's why people solving hard problems should have a significantly higher rate
20:35:20 <ooo123ooo1234567> selsta: incompetent charlatan has 50% of UkoeHB
20:35:22 <ooo123ooo1234567> though he is doing nothing
20:35:27 <ooo123ooo1234567> by this claim UkoeHB should have +inf rate
20:37:11 <luigi1112> that's fair; hourly CCSes may not be tenable outside specific circumstances
20:51:55 <ooo123ooo1234567> <luigi1112> "<ooo123ooo1234567> What's the..." <- Can you ask that scammer to specify goal for each milestone in verifiable way ?
20:57:00 <ooo123ooo1234567> <ooo123ooo1234567> "Can you ask that scammer to..." <- Do you need evidence that it's scammer ?
20:58:52 <ooo123ooo1234567> <luigi1112> "<ooo123ooo1234567> What's the..." <- There is no value in discussion under proposal except when it helps to make goal more verifiable, or it helps to point out problems in proposal to punish incompetent abuser
21:05:48 <ooo123ooo1234567> <luigi1112> "<ooo123ooo1234567> What's the..." <- "A reasonable approach is evaluation at end of period and teremining ..." without ability to verify goal ? 
21:06:15 <ooo123ooo1234567> s/teremining/deremining/, s/goal/work/
21:08:06 <Save_G[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: for which 3 letter agency do you work?
21:12:27 <ooo123ooo1234567> Save_G[m]: facepalm
21:15:36 <nioc> XMR
21:16:23 <ooo123ooo1234567> nioc: how to expand ?
21:17:05 <nioc> I assume that is the 3 letter agency that you work for 
21:21:05 <ooo123ooo1234567> <msvb-web> "Are you going to present the..." <- facepalm
21:29:26 <ooo123ooo1234567> luigi1112: can you describe your internal "engagement meter" that helps you to identify when it's ready to merge proposal of obvious scammer, but any other ?
21:29:37 <ooo123ooo1234567> if you don't care about verification then merge all of them
21:31:04 <ooo123ooo1234567> "https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/311#note_15938" attacking new anonymous proposal, but don't see scammer around; facepalm
21:31:37 <ooo123ooo1234567> the only thing that matters is that goal must be related to monero, and it must be verifiable
21:32:09 <ooo123ooo1234567> In the worst case it's at least possible to prevent abuse for free, in the best case there must be explicit punishment for abuse
21:33:33 <ooo123ooo1234567> "https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/311#note_16588" or this follower of money driven scammer; facepalm
21:34:52 <plowsof[m]> are you for or against the Buisiness Kit proposal oo123
21:37:50 <ooo123ooo1234567> plowsof[m]: there is no such user
21:38:08 <ooo123ooo1234567> "https://teddit.net/r/Monero/comments/v072o3/soloptxmr_minimum_viable_product_1st_milestone/iagszws/#c" facepalm
21:38:53 <ooo123ooo1234567> "https://teddit.net/u/Lynnaignet_293" May 08 2022, fresh account
21:43:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> <ooo123ooo1234567> "there is no such user" <- Plowsof is asking you what your what you think about
21:43:12 <ofrnxmr[m]>  https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/311#note_16588
21:43:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> * Plowsof is asking you what you think about
21:43:57 <ofrnxmr[m]>  https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/311#note_16588
21:44:20 <ooo123ooo1234567> <plowsof[m]> "are you for or against the..." <- There is no value in opinion of anyone
21:44:30 <ooo123ooo1234567> Only verifiable solutions matter
21:44:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yes, but do you have those solutions?
21:44:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or can you help find them?
21:46:40 <ooo123ooo1234567> "https://teddit.net/r/Monero/comments/umgew1/mjs_dev_report_aprmay_2022_23/" I have no idea, but it looks like this scammer is talking with himself; facepalm
21:47:13 <ooo123ooo1234567> fresh account, leading intro towards something that only he is caring about
21:47:31 <ooo123ooo1234567>  * fresh account, leading intro towards something that only scammer is caring about, and actually failed to deliver via blackbox approach
21:47:47 <ooo123ooo1234567>  * fresh account, leading intro towards something that only scammer is caring about, and actually failed to deliver via blackbox approach: fix code without reading it
21:51:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monero isnt a company though.
21:51:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> If better people offered their services, better people would be funded 
21:51:44 <ooo123ooo1234567> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Monero isnt a company though.
21:51:44 <ooo123ooo1234567> > If better people offered their services, better people would be funded
21:51:44 <ooo123ooo1234567> better solutions, it doesn't matter how these solutions were obtained
21:52:15 <plowsof[m]> is the debate 'hourly rate' vs 'i want to achieve this goal' ?
21:55:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> Plowsof, I think its the price/approval for to quality of work or not work we are paying for
21:55:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: am I wrong ?
21:55:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> I also agree that the most essential stuff needs to ve prioritized. Koe should raise His rate. Perfect-daemon should open a ccs. Moneromoo should as well
21:55:23 <plowsof[m]> verifying that the person 'actually' worked x hours right?
21:56:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> * Plowsof, I think its the price/approval of project vs their quality (or lack of quality) of work we are paying for
21:56:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: am I wrong ?
21:56:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> I also agree that the most essential stuff needs to ve prioritized. Koe should raise His rate. Perfect-daemon should open a ccs. Moneromoo should as well
21:56:43 <selsta> moneromooo has a CCS still open, but he is slow with his hours
21:57:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> I think hours are nonsense.
21:57:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> Koe says 20 hrs / week. There's no way he only works 20hrs. He's just not charging for his every hour
21:57:19 <ooo123ooo1234567> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Plowsof, I think its the price/approval of project vs their quality (or lack of quality) of work we are paying for... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/5528ad0d19334d9aa5b2e5fca5e919911bfe6414)
21:57:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> selsta: Is it fully funded?
21:57:57 <plowsof[m]> yes moos is fully funded, he just chooses not to ask for payment (even though he has done alot of the hours already) xd
21:58:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> plowsof[m]: Well HOW DO I PAY HIM
21:58:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> lol
21:58:30 <ooo123ooo1234567> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Plowsof, I think its the price/approval of project vs their quality (or lack of quality) of work we are paying for... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/50d863be00f2cde97565ddf96754e428fa2ec005)
21:58:43 <ooo123ooo1234567>  * You forget luigi1111, he is specialist in cryptography <del>without</del> with vulnerabilities
21:59:37 <ofrnxmr[m]> I'd be happy to help fund a proposal for perfect-daemon
22:00:00 <ooo123ooo1234567> ofrnxmr[m]: facepalm
22:00:14 <ooo123ooo1234567> I'm quite sure, there are very few people that fund everything here
22:00:47 <plowsof[m]> the whales is amogus 
22:00:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> Why faceoalm? 
22:00:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> I want 7760 7999 merged 
22:01:12 <ooo123ooo1234567> ofrnxmr[m]: you don't have money
22:01:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: 26 people on every poposal haha
22:02:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> I dont have money? Hmm. Must b doxxed.
22:02:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> Better people think I dont have money
22:02:40 <selsta> 7760 7999 isn't merged for other review reasons
22:02:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> Open your proposal and you might see 27 people
22:02:55 <ooo123ooo1234567> selsta: the reasons is incompetent developers
22:03:14 <ooo123ooo1234567> s/reasons/reason/
22:04:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> So whats stopping PD from making an alt and doing the reviews for CCS? Like mj
22:04:16 <selsta> which review?
22:04:45 <ooo123ooo1234567> ofrnxmr[m]: I'm not scammer
22:05:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> But youre more competent than the current devs? So why not help us out?
22:05:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> And get paid for your work?
22:06:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> (Or not, if you dont want the money)
22:06:19 <ooo123ooo1234567> ofrnxmr[m]: luigi1111 can't even merge code that fixes problem properly since he isn't competent himself, there are no people to review it properly, no people to audit it properly
22:06:29 <ooo123ooo1234567> And I don't want to be in the same row as all these scammers
22:06:51 <selsta> well yes, like i said lack of review
22:07:18 <ooo123ooo1234567> But luigi1111 did/does/will merge vulnerable code approved by incompetent developers
22:07:27 <plowsof[m]> i believe it is being outsourced (the audit) - to be funded mostly by RINO (16kusd) last i heard. not sure where that has progressed to now 
22:07:42 <selsta> plowsof[m]: we are waiting for a statement from auditing firm
22:08:11 <ooo123ooo1234567> plowsof[m]: outside company auditing PR for monero, since monero environment isn't capable to do it; facepalm
22:08:28 <plowsof[m]> yes because we are all scammers and cant be trusted :D
22:08:28 <ooo123ooo1234567> And luigi1111 is merged CCS proposals of these scammers without any verification at the same time; facepalm
22:08:33 <ooo123ooo1234567> s/merged/merging/
22:08:48 <ooo123ooo1234567> s/outside/external/
22:08:57 <selsta> plowsof[m]: the multisig PR is being audited, not 7760 7999
22:09:06 <plowsof[m]> oh sorry 
22:09:20 <selsta> or there are plans to audit it, but we are waiting for a reply
22:09:29 <plowsof[m]> spreading misinformation <- facepalm, sorry 
22:14:33 <plowsof[m]> ooo123ooo123 was nicer , 1234567 is a big meanie 
22:14:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> The systems arent perfect. You know as well as everyone else that there arent many real devs working on the project.
22:14:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> Moneromoo has voiced their concerns about the quality of MRL as well.
22:14:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monero needs more talent... but complaining about the current talent doesnt fix the problem. Nobody is arguing that monero, CCS or luigi is perfect. We would all like it to be, but better eyes are needed. 
22:14:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> If you know people, well.. why complain? Fix the problem 
22:15:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> plowsof[m]: 123 to 1234567 real quick
22:15:20 <ooo123ooo1234567> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> The systems arent perfect. You know as well as everyone else that there arent many real devs working on the project.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/271409b25810d856efbd701e7a26eb5a881f8b4b)
22:15:59 <ooo123ooo1234567> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> The systems arent perfect. You know as well as everyone else that there arent many real devs working on the project.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/5268d633ca52b7fe21538e0cb9f87ba17c2c1d06)
22:16:03 <ooo123ooo1234567>  * What are you calling as talent ? It's just problem -> solution -> verification;
22:16:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> Your memory in impeccable. I dont remember the message in that much detail. Haha
22:16:29 <ooo123ooo1234567>  * What are you calling as talent ? It's just project goal -[work] -> problem -[work]-> solution -[work]> verification;
22:17:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: Im using the word as a figure of speech.
22:17:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> Dont worry, im not calling anyone talented 
22:18:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> When I say monero needs more talent, I mean needs more people who understand the things you talk about 
22:18:45 <ooo123ooo1234567> actually all people that working directly with mj-xmr are equally incompetent
22:18:57 <ooo123ooo1234567> endor00: Rucknium 
22:19:00 <ooo123ooo1234567> who else ?
22:19:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> plowsof: 
22:19:48 <plowsof[m]> what did i do 😳
22:20:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> Im jk haha.
22:20:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> Lighten up, 1234567
22:24:58 <ooo123ooo1234567> <ofrnxmr[m]> "But youre more competent than..." <- Competent people are not needed in environment where there is no respect, no reward bounded to proper solutions. I was ok to be abused in case if my code at least merged quickly.
22:25:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> You wanted s reward?
22:26:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> Majesticbank offered you one
22:26:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> For multisig
22:26:19 <plowsof[m]> is "anon: perfect peer to peer protocol from bottom to top" your proposal ooo123?
22:26:22 <ooo123ooo1234567> Majesticbank shouldn't exist since it's MITM between cryptocurrency users
22:26:31 <ooo123ooo1234567> thanks for pennies
22:26:59 <plowsof[m]> whoever made "anon: perfect peer to peer protocol from bottom to top" should be punished for abandoning it !
22:27:15 <selsta> they didn't lol
22:27:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ooo
22:27:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> How much do you want? We had a meeting today but I dont recall seeing any work to be paid for by you
22:27:29 <plowsof[m]> selsta: ohh
22:27:34 <selsta> the work was done, just no payout asked
22:27:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> * Ooo
22:27:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> How much do you want? We had a meeting today but I dont recall seeing any proposals for moneys to be paid to you for work
22:27:53 <plowsof[m]> huh 
22:28:00 <ooo123ooo1234567> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Ooo
22:28:01 <ooo123ooo1234567> > How much do you want? We had a meeting today but I dont recall seeing any proposals for moneys to be paid to you for work
22:28:01 <ooo123ooo1234567> I suppose maximum since I'm ready to compete with everyone here
22:28:16 <ooo123ooo1234567> And there is only competition with everyone at once: rekt.news
22:28:22 <ooo123ooo1234567> * is only one competition, * competition (known to me) with everyone
22:28:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> Open the ccs and list out what youre going to do, my man
22:29:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> If you opened ccs to rewrite p2p protocol, fix SSL etc etc etc, it would have been funded quickly.
22:29:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> Right plowsof: 
22:29:18 <ooo123ooo1234567> ofrnxmr[m]: I'm caring about privacy for real unlike that scammer that deanonymized himself in exchange for money (tsqsim) proposal
22:29:37 <selsta> ofrnxmr[m]: the problem is that we need someone else to review his work
22:29:50 <selsta> otherwise we are back again like 7760 7999 where there is no review
22:29:56 <selsta> even though both are important
22:30:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> A God to review a king
22:30:19 <plowsof[m]> yes, reviewers for his work, and we need to pay a public relations team for him 
22:30:28 <ooo123ooo1234567> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> If you opened ccs to rewrite p2p protocol, fix SSL etc etc etc, it would have been funded quickly.
22:30:28 <ooo123ooo1234567> > 
22:30:28 <ooo123ooo1234567> > Right plowsof:
22:30:28 <ooo123ooo1234567> SSL must removed completely; it was implemented poorly, still broken in repo, but some incompetent developers instead of learning what is needed and what is not, are happy to waste time on this SSL; facepalm;
22:31:05 <ooo123ooo1234567> Nobody is using separate certificates per each app on clear net 
22:31:20 <ooo123ooo1234567> And non clear networks have e2e encryption bounded to hostname
22:33:47 <plowsof[m]> lets get the ccs contract written up for oo123 . Section 1: I declare that i will never post in public using the name for which this ccs is to be undertaken by Signed:___________
22:35:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> If you know people who are capable of reviewing your work, perhaps you can bring them over?
22:35:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> Like years ago, when surae brought sarang
22:36:52 <ooo123ooo1234567> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> If you know people who are capable of reviewing your work, perhaps you can bring them over?
22:36:52 <ooo123ooo1234567> > 
22:36:52 <ooo123ooo1234567> > Like years ago, when surae brought sarang
22:36:52 <ooo123ooo1234567> I know that with strict rules even that scammer will have to work for reward
22:39:05 <ooo123ooo1234567> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> If you know people who are capable of reviewing your work, perhaps you can bring them over?
22:39:05 <ooo123ooo1234567> > 
22:39:05 <ooo123ooo1234567> > Like years ago, when surae brought sarang
22:39:05 <ooo123ooo1234567> And then both leaved with burnout (one with health problems, the one without probably)
22:39:06 <ooo123ooo1234567> hahahahaha
22:39:17 <ooo123ooo1234567>  * And then both leaved with burnout (one with health problems, the other one without probably)
22:39:45 <selsta> ooo123ooo1234567: you said you know how to setup a competition for multisig
22:39:59 <Rucknium[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: I'm competent in my area, which is statistics (econometrics, really). I am not competent in cryptography nor coding C++, which I have discussed before. You are not competent in statistics, AFAIK.
22:43:09 <ooo123ooo1234567> Rucknium[m]: competent people don't afraid of competition and ready to defend their solutions, you're not;
22:46:49 <plowsof[m]> Rucknium is actively trying to recruit new talent (also researchers) into Monero (not afraid of competition) 
22:47:17 <ooo123ooo1234567> plowsof[m]: recruit incompetent; facepalm
22:47:26 <plowsof[m]> the goal is to not recruit incompetent though 
22:47:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> Wheres ooo's invite :(
22:48:03 <plowsof[m]> Sign the contract ooo123!
22:48:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> 4567*
22:48:51 <ooo123ooo1234567> <plowsof[m]> "lets get the ccs contract..." <- I don't understand it
22:50:32 <Rucknium[m]> <ooo123ooo1234567> "competent people don't afraid of..." <- I'm not afraid of competition. I want more statisticians working on Monero! I'm ready to defend my solutions. What do you mean by that?
22:50:42 <plowsof[m]> you work -> provide solutions -> get paid . and any of your extra curricular activities must happen under aliases / not related to your CCS name 
22:50:51 <plowsof[m]> simple 
22:51:13 <Rucknium[m]> This is what I was taking about: you don't understand how Monero's privacy model relies on resistance to statistical attack. I suggest you read:
22:51:26 <Rucknium[m]> Moser et al. (2018) "An Empirical Analysis of Traceability in the Monero Blockchain"
22:51:32 <Rucknium[m]> Ronge, Egger, Lai, Schröder, and Yin (2021) "Foundations of Ring Sampling"
22:51:39 <Rucknium[m]> Aslam, Tošić, and Mrissa (2021). "Secure and Privacy-Aware Blockchain Design: Requirements, Challenges and Solutions"
22:51:48 <Rucknium[m]> Ni, Cheng, Chen, and Lin (2021) "When the Recursive Diversity Anonymity Meets the Ring Signature"
22:51:54 <Rucknium[m]> Wijaya, Liu, Steinfeld, Liu and Yuen (2019) "Anonymity Reduction Attacks to Monero"
22:52:03 <Rucknium[m]> Ye, Ojukwu, Hsu, and Hu (2020). "Alt-Coin Traceability"
22:52:50 <ooo123ooo1234567> plowsof[m]: how is it different from current state of things ? what's the purpose of this contract ?
22:53:08 <selsta> haha
22:53:28 <plowsof[m]> +1 
22:54:50 <plowsof[m]> and your rates will be Rate: 50 USD + 0.2 XMR ?
22:55:38 <ooo123ooo1234567> <Rucknium[m]> "I'm not afraid of competition. I..." <- "I want more statisticians working on Monero!" the goal should be to reduce privacy leaks in monero, so that there will be no data analyse, no work for statisticians. You're doing completely opposite.
22:56:34 <Rucknium[m]> I agree. But with ring signatures there is substantial data to analyze
22:56:47 <nikg83[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: If we don’t do it, others will do it and find flaws 
22:57:12 <plowsof[m]> Rucknium is exposing flaws , 'job creation' for people like ooo123 
22:58:54 <ooo123ooo1234567> plowsof[m]: Hiring incompetent developer, supporting that scammer, underestimate work of UkoeHB; all of this only increases data leakage
22:59:12 <ooo123ooo1234567> s/underestimate/underestimating/
23:00:31 <Rucknium[m]> I certainly didn't hire anyone. I don't underestimate the work of UkoeHB. But the fact remains that with Seraphis we will still have ring signatures, so there is data for attackers to analyze.
23:01:50 <ooo123ooo1234567> plowsof[m]: and scammer is abusing environment for profit at the same time
23:01:58 <plowsof[m]> highschool musical : 'we're all in this together...'
23:05:27 <ooo123ooo1234567> <nikg83[m]> "If we don’t do it, others will..." <- I've already pointed out few flaws and none of them is fixed; facepalm
23:06:20 <ooo123ooo1234567> <nikg83[m]> "If we don’t do it, others will..." <- And you were advocating for obviously (deterministically, unlike privacy leaks collected via machine learning) insecure thing for users; facepalm
23:06:23 <nikg83[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: Like 0-conf ?
23:07:14 <nikg83[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: What ? I am advocating finding flaws before others find it 
23:08:32 <ooo123ooo1234567> nikg83[m]: The final goal is improving this project. And finding flaws without fixing is making project worse, not better.
23:08:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> <plowsof[m]> "and your rates will be Rate..." <- 100usd + 0.2xmr
23:08:55 <ooo123ooo1234567> And I'm asking how Rucknium is going to fix those issues
23:09:11 <ooo123ooo1234567> * those issues or better how someone can verify that issues are indeed fixed
23:09:38 <ooo123ooo1234567> Verification procedure is actually the final goal since it will allow to catch all privacy leaks or prove that it's impossible we can close this project
23:09:50 <ooo123ooo1234567> * it's impossible and we can
23:10:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ooo, we/I want you to 😉
23:11:15 <ooo123ooo1234567> Verification procedure is good goal since it can be approached from both sides at the same time; 
23:11:38 <ooo123ooo1234567>  * Verification procedure is good goal since it can be approached from both sides at the same time
23:12:02 <Rucknium[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: I will send you the draft. It's old and incomplete, though.
23:12:36 <ooo123ooo1234567> ofrnxmr[m]: What's the purpose if scammers will get more, will mock anyone who is doing something useful and will joke in the end who gratefully he abused this project for his personal needs
23:12:52 <ooo123ooo1234567> s/who/how/, s/he/they/, s/his/their/
23:14:01 <ooo123ooo1234567> <ofrnxmr[m]> "100usd + 0.2xmr" <- Add verification procedure for each CCS and anyone competent will get this reward for solving problems from CCS faster or better or pointing out mistakes with proofs
23:15:11 <ooo123ooo1234567> Or better add competition to each CCS so that scammers will not be able to scam
23:16:02 <sech1> ooo111222333 your texts are very hard to read
23:16:44 <nikg83[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: That would be https://bounties.monero.social , but it doesn’t have a lot of exposure 
23:16:53 <selsta> if you can demonstrate how a competition for e.g. multisig should look, maybe other can understand better what you are proposing
23:17:29 <sech1> he's talking about bug bounty
23:17:47 <ooo123ooo1234567> nikg83[m]: problem with CCS and bounties that both are created by people that are not interested in competition
23:17:53 <sech1> at least that's what I translated from his GPT-3 english to normal english
23:19:24 <nikg83[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: Bounties is competition, whoever finishes firsts gets awarded 
23:19:40 <ooo123ooo1234567> nikg83[m]: No, there is even example with atomic swap
23:19:57 <ooo123ooo1234567> The first applier for bounty is locking it somehow, preventing anyone else to do it at the same time
23:20:11 <nikg83[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: Eth one? there was some specs issue I think 
23:20:13 <sech1> bounties are bad for writing production code
23:20:20 <sech1> they encourage people to hurry and make mistakes
23:20:43 <nikg83[m]> sech1: Bounties can get new coders to join ccs and long term development 
23:20:48 <plowsof[m]> yeah bounties have their own problems .. contracts would be better  
23:21:17 <ooo123ooo1234567> sech1: bounties without verification - yes
23:21:18 <sech1> New coders, maybe. But I wouldn't let bounties anywhere near critical code
23:21:53 <ooo123ooo1234567> sech1: there must at least two roles: someone who is doing, someone who is trying to crack it / verify
23:21:58 <ooo123ooo1234567> * there must be at least
23:22:09 <plowsof[m]> i would not expect a person who can handle 'hard problems' to engage in some kind of bounty where they are against the clock / risk getting no reward 
23:22:29 <plowsof[m]> they already have a well paying job probably 
23:22:32 <ooo123ooo1234567> plowsof[m]: No. Competent people can solve any problem faster than anyone else.
23:22:47 <sech1> bullshit
23:22:55 <sech1> some people prefer to work slow and tediously
23:23:41 <ooo123ooo1234567> sech1: Learning slowly - yes, doing something already learned - no
23:24:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> sech1: Not to say that some people cant do that a lot faster than others 
23:24:00 <sech1> doing something already learned is not solving a new problem
23:24:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> But, for example. Vtnerd wrote an SSL shutdown patch and perfect daemon rewrote a lot of the code.
23:25:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> If vtnerd finished first, id still want to look at perfect daemons work
23:25:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> As it was.. a lot
23:27:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/7999/commits/744555d5c0391d811843c4a1e72723da086d9f7d
23:30:13 <ooo123ooo1234567> <sech1> "some people prefer to work..." <- it depends on the task / knowledge of solver / abilities of solver / probably something else.
23:32:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/7760/commits/925c0364d2d8823132cda8cdc84619828c8e4607#r884315795
23:33:13 <ooo123ooo1234567> <sech1> "doing something already learned..." <- From perspective of solver - yes, from external perspective - no;
23:33:58 <ooo123ooo1234567> <sech1> "some people prefer to work..." <- "https://github.com/SChernykh/vanity_xmr_cuda" if someone would open CCS  for this work, then you would be able to submit solution qucker
23:37:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> (Were confused) what you mean ^
23:37:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> About ccs
23:38:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> Sarcasm? I think?
23:38:34 <selsta> not sarcasm, it was an example
23:45:46 <BusyBoredom[m]> Jesus christ, this conversation is still going?
23:46:08 <selsta> not for long, soon everyone will be asleep