09:45:56 <midipoet> msvb-web: yes, i do. he is on telegram
12:29:30 <msvb-web> I found rehrar on Matrix by the way midipoet, so we have even two methods of reaching them.
12:32:43 <midipoet> msvb-web: great!
12:39:08 <spirobel[m]> <mj-xmr[m]> "Reminds me of the quote: "..." <- I think we can all agree that monero has too much "discussions" at the moment. The only long term solution to this is that we need to have a communication platform where we can reliably ban these bloodsuckers and people that didnt donate to a proposal cant comment on it. I also think the CCS process involves too much "discussions" with randos from the internet. Compare that to gitcoin:
12:39:08 <spirobel[m]> I got almost 700 dollars in advance to work on stuff. ZERO discussions. 
12:52:34 <w[m]> <mj-xmr[m]> "If I shot him dead, wouldn't I..." <- spirobel:  you approve of this statement?
12:54:13 <midipoet> gitcoin seem to have some interesting grants, in fairness. https://gitcoin.co/grants/explorer .though it is not clear whether the funding is predominantly coming from a central authority or from the community at large (probably a mix, i guess). 
12:55:02 <spirobel[m]> midipoet: yes it is a mix. You also get social proof from getting and giving donations. It is a bit bloated, but in general it is a great platform
12:55:54 <spirobel[m]> meanwhile in monero: you just have this unmoderated gitlab full of mentally ill people. not cool. 
12:56:56 <spirobel[m]> I mean some of the comments are helpful and constructive. But if it really gets devalued by being surrounded by all this garbage. 
12:57:10 <spirobel[m]> s/if//
13:00:05 <spirobel[m]> And also this: while constructive and helpful comments are great => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibMf68i4rz8
13:00:41 <spirobel[m]> we should do stuff instead of talking about doing stuff. 🚀
13:02:45 <midipoet> I don't think it's fair or ethical making judgements on mental health, but it would be helpful if discussions on CCS ideas were sometimes more constructive. Having said that, we shouldn't moderate away critical voices, as they are important too. It's about finding the right balance. I think the key is getting more people to engage in the discussions, especially the more left field ones. It is easy to reach consensus on 
13:02:45 <midipoet> the important stuff (devs, infrastructure, etc) but harder when benefits are less tangible or less technical. 
13:04:57 <spirobel[m]> midipoet: I disagree. Critical voices are mostly useless waste of time. Just let the donors decide what they want to spend money on. There still needs to be some process though and donors should get something in return: social proof and the ability to offer their opinion on a proposal.
13:05:37 <spirobel[m]> gitcoin does a great job at that.
13:07:32 <spirobel[m]> The ability to offer critique is also an open barn door for community attacks. Adversaries can come in and just demotivate everyone. There is no way to effectively counteract that besides only giving a voice to people that showed commitment and good faith by giving money to a certain proposal. So they should be allowed to comment. Everyone else can just keep their opinion to themselves.  
13:08:43 <spirobel[m]> I mean even now you see this kind of clique building and people making alliances or shilling for the proposals of people on "their team" while  attacking the ones they deem to be "in the other team".
13:08:55 <spirobel[m]> it is cringe and non productive tbh
13:09:32 <midipoet> so the process would be donate to be allowed comment on a CCS idea? that seems inequitable and would increase the barrier to comment even further
13:11:15 <spirobel[m]> midipoet: yes. this is exactly what is needed. I mean read my proposal for example. Imagine you are a newcomer to Monero. Imagine you are a woman from Afghanistan and you read the kind of shit that rottenwheel put in there. Would you feel welcome? would you be happy to contribute and become part of the community? 
13:16:09 <spirobel[m]> the problem is that we have people commenting in there that dont care about improving proposal or helping out. If you spent money on something it is proof that you argue in good faith and that you care about moving the initiative forward. I dont see how people that dont argue in good faith add value. They just stand in the way and we get nothing done and argue all day with people whose whole purpose it is to block things from
13:16:09 <spirobel[m]> moving forward. So if we argue with them, they win. We just need to ignore them. 
13:16:18 <spirobel[m]> s/proposal/proposals/
13:28:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> Double standards much?
13:32:40 <spirobel[m]> I can also recommend this chapter on handling difficult people in open source projects: https://producingoss.com/en/producingoss.html#difficult-people 
13:33:27 <spirobel[m]> I think there is a lot we can learn from this. Lots of valuable insights into the social dynamics behind this. 
13:34:39 <spirobel[m]> The way the medium we use to communicate is structured will affect if we are productive as a community or if we are constantly debating each other. We can design it in a way that makes us more productive.  
13:36:23 <spirobel[m]>  * The way the medium we use to communicate is structured will affect how productive we are as a community or if we are constantly debating each other. We can design it in a way that makes us more productive.  
13:36:45 <spirobel[m]>  * The way the medium we use to communicate is structured will affect how productive we are as a community or if we waste our energy constantly debating each other. We can design it in a way that makes us more productive.  
13:38:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> How about
13:38:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> If rotten get banned for threats, so should mj 
13:38:53 <plowsof[m]> the 'evil schizos' leave the new comers alone thankfullythe ccs is not all doom and gloom for new comers. here is an example, first time contributor, has done previous work on the subject and wants to contribute - https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/297
13:39:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> Unlike Rottens threats, mj's are here for everybody to see and he has no remorse for saying them 
13:39:51 <spacekitty420[m]> the fuk are yall even talking about
13:39:58 <plowsof[m]> Moneroj.net received criticism in the recent meeting, and he changed his proposal alot https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/318#note_16622
13:40:34 <plowsof[m]> even WIll K has changed his proposal, (after aggression and hatred in the comments)
13:46:42 <plowsof[m]> the Atomic swap gui proposal - if this got merged for funding, it would get funded quite quickly i think we can all agree? but some concerns were raised over the comit swap protocol being not maintained / hourly rates not specified etc
13:50:33 <spirobel[m]> plowsof[m]: the onboarding experience was far from optimal. We had to ban schizos that were spamming the chat and the bounties. 
13:51:31 <plowsof[m]> was this the person who made an eth - xmr atomic swap that didnt perform atomic swaps?
13:51:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> Spirobel, its hard to take you seriously when you are only talking about rotten.
13:51:42 <spirobel[m]> <plowsof[m]> "the 'evil schizos' leave the new..." <- I guess some people get "lucky". But we cant have luck decide over if the experience for newcomers is shitty or not. The process needs to be improved.
13:52:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> How about the others? Do those rules apply universally? Or you make exceptions for anyone not named rotten
13:53:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> plowsof: apologies
13:53:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> im not trying to derail the convo, but its hard to work out a problem while ignoring the pink elephant in the room
13:53:27 <spirobel[m]> plowsof[m]: yeah. Some mentally ill person showed up and misbehaved. 
13:53:31 <plowsof[m]> no problem 😁
13:53:32 <spirobel[m]> shouldnt be possible
13:54:24 <spirobel[m]> in gitcoin something like this cant happen in the same way because there is no "discussions" that the crazy people can hijack. 
13:55:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> Crazy is subjective it seems
13:56:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> You seem to think rotten is the reason your proposal is stalled - he's not
15:03:29 <r4v3r23[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "If rotten get banned for threats..." <- mj at least contributes something of worth
15:03:58 <r4v3r23[m]> not saying death threats are cool but the 2 aren't comparable
15:04:17 <r4v3r23[m]> besides wtf is a death threat online between nyms 
15:05:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> r4v3r23[m]: So does ooo123
15:06:02 <r4v3r23[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: right. not everyone is agreeable
15:06:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> And I agree, death threats online are ridiculous. But thats why they are comparable.
15:06:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> Why are we cool with mj talking about shooting ooo123
15:07:04 <r4v3r23[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> And I agree, death threats online are ridiculous. But thats why they are comparable.
15:07:05 <r4v3r23[m]> > 
15:07:05 <r4v3r23[m]> > Why are we cool with mj talking about shooting ooo123
15:07:05 <r4v3r23[m]> i think it was a figure of speech and not a real direct threat
15:07:44 <r4v3r23[m]> i could say the same to you right now and itd mean nothing
15:07:45 <r4v3r23[m]> bad taste, sure. but harmless
15:08:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> It was harmless, of course, this is the internet.
15:08:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> But the only reason it wasnt a direct threat is because ooo wasnt here to be threatened
15:08:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> Rotten saying "this wont end well for you or haveno" is what I consider not a threat 
15:08:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> But were supposed to hate him for stuff like that
15:09:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> But mj can fully refuse to clarify or take back his statements
15:09:30 <r4v3r23[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: no, he's just a larping faggot with a victim complex deperate for attention
15:09:43 <r4v3r23[m]> hes demonstrated that in every community hes been part of and kicked out of
15:10:24 <r4v3r23[m]> i dont think mj has to take back his statements - we all know its harmless
15:10:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> The narrative with rotten is that he doxxes and threatens people 
15:10:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> So in that case
15:10:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its ok if I start talking like that in here?
15:11:02 <r4v3r23[m]> no one likes him. thats his problem
15:11:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> r4v3r23[m]: Ooo123s?
15:11:24 <r4v3r23[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: you could but you'd probably just ignored
15:11:28 <r4v3r23[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: rotten
15:11:35 <r4v3r23[m]> * probably just be ignored
15:11:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> No, id get banned 🤣
15:12:36 <r4v3r23[m]> people;s fuck ups are more tolerated depending their value (true of any community)
15:12:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> This chat is supposed to be higher level than #monero
15:12:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Talking about shooting people is a crime yknow
15:13:02 <r4v3r23[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> This chat is supposed to be higher level than #monero
15:13:02 <r4v3r23[m]> > Talking about shooting people is a crime yknow
15:13:02 <r4v3r23[m]> agree it was in bad taste
15:13:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> r4v3r23[m]: I agree. Which is why ooo has been allowed to post like crazy in MRL.
15:13:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> But I havent seen ooo talk about shooting people dead to make the world a better place 
15:13:32 <graydrgn[m]> Hi
15:13:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> How does that even make sense when ooo wrote 7760 and 7999
15:13:53 <r4v3r23[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: based
15:13:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> And mj didnt review them
15:14:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> They just sat idle, and now thank sech we've got some progress
15:14:20 <plowsof[m]> we're all happy when the rules are applied to people we don't like
15:14:27 <zounds[m]> graydrgn[m]: hi
15:14:37 <r4v3r23[m]> plowsof[m]: no i think youre making false comparisons
15:15:00 <plowsof[m]> r4v3r23 you just used a homophobic slur in public , im literally shaking right now in fear
15:15:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> plowsof[m]: I dont 'like anybody 😁
15:15:12 <r4v3r23[m]> plowsof[m]: dont make me say it again
15:15:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> graydrgn[m]: Good morning graydrgn: 
15:15:26 <r4v3r23[m]> 😂
15:16:31 <r4v3r23[m]> plowsof: that word has nothing to do with being gay
15:16:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> BTW
15:16:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> im against cancelling or banning mj
15:16:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> But he SHOULD apologize 
15:16:54 <r4v3r23[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> BTW
15:16:54 <r4v3r23[m]> > im against cancelling or banning mj
15:16:54 <r4v3r23[m]> i dont think every ban is a cancel
15:17:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> r4v3r23[m]: It is when you get instabanned from every platform after you utter a threat 
15:17:36 <plowsof[m]> if i threatened to kill someone / and then doubled down on it and say 'actually, i don't need weapons' (aka ill do it with my bare hands) i would issue a public aplogy , especially if im under the CCS pay-roll 
15:17:39 <r4v3r23[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: no that just means people dont like you
15:17:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> And have your unrelated work shadowbanned 
15:18:00 <r4v3r23[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: "work"
15:18:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> plowsof[m]: Bro
15:18:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> He went and completeted the milestone hours later 
15:18:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> Like im going to get paid after threatening people, who's gonna stop me
15:19:05 <r4v3r23[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: $thuglyf
15:19:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> r4v3r23[m]: Im not defending rotten
15:19:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> Im sating the same people who ACTIVELY try to make sure rotten is silenced, dont hear the crazy shit mj is saying 
15:20:17 <monerobull[m]> What the hell is going on in here
15:20:47 <r4v3r23[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Im not defending rotten
15:20:47 <r4v3r23[m]> > Im sating the same people who ACTIVELY try to make sure rotten is silenced, dont hear the crazy shit mj is saying
15:20:47 <r4v3r23[m]> and im saying it has to do with him being an annoying cunt that nobody likes. he bans people left and right in every room he begs to be an admin in, and then whines when he gets banned, going on a victim "cancel" crusade
15:21:36 <r4v3r23[m]> people dont care what others say, just what they do
15:21:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> monerobull[m]: Everybody shh, monerobull is here 🙇‍♂️ 
15:21:50 <midipoet> monerobull[m]: i was also wondering. i don't get where the quotes are coming from. is it #monero?
15:22:03 <plowsof[m]> https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-community/20220530#c102169 
15:22:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> midipoet: Hete
15:23:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> * Here
15:23:15 <spacekitty420[m]> monerobull[m]: usual drama tbh, someone saying they gon shoot somethin or somethin somethin
15:23:15 <spacekitty420[m]> but the only thing that needs to be shot is sgp_'s load in me so he can breed the shit outta me o.o
15:23:17 <spacekitty420[m]> wait what
15:23:57 <monerobull[m]> I only made it to sgp, what comes after :(
15:24:07 <spacekitty420[m]> NOTHIN LOL
15:24:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> monerobull[m]: Same!
15:49:30 <rbrunner> "How does that even make sense when ooo wrote 7760 and 7999" ofrnxmr[m], do we know that for sure? Or at least with reasonable certainty? Serious question.
16:06:07 <nioc> rbrunner: maybe ask sel sta
16:40:53 <selsta> don't want to read backlog
16:40:59 <selsta> lol
16:41:03 <selsta> rbrunner: yes
16:49:50 <rbrunner> Thanks, selsta. A bit unfortunate, IMHO, but obviously we can't choose ...
16:51:55 <selsta> at least there is some on topic discussion around the patch in dev
16:53:35 <rbrunner> Yes, what is taking place right now there is, well, almost reasonable and productive, at least in comparison :)
17:26:56 <nioc> mjxmr falsely claiming sockpuppets in -dev
17:28:24 <nioc> just stepped in, will catch up with the drama there in a bit 
17:29:13 <sethforprivacy> Would love some input on answers I'm writing up to a journalist about using Monero as a "mixer":... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/e7065206d7eaefa7a84cd1919cc8ba5576a93284)
17:32:16 <sethforprivacy> And some contact from the journalist:
17:32:16 <sethforprivacy> > An idea that was presented to me in my conversations is that one should consider crypto mixers like Tornado Cash and a protocol like Monero in much the same way: some Monero transactions are more linkable than others, just like transactions sent through Tornado Cash.
17:32:16 <sethforprivacy> > For example, if a cybercriminal swapped 10 BTC for an equivalent amount of XMR, moved that XMR between a few Monero addresses, then swapped that XMR into ETH after a short period of time, then it doesn't really matter how privacy-preserving Monero is in this instance, those transactions can be reasonably linked by analytics firms like Elliptic and Chainalysis
17:32:17 <sethforprivacy> > Chainalysis in particular was said to be very good at linking Monero transactions, I'm presuming on account of how wide their net is with regard to blockchain data and their proprietary tooling that helps sort through that data to link amounts and auxiliary addresses together.
17:32:20 <SerHack> sethforprivacy: I would mark in the third question that Monero provides the "privacy by default" feature. Generally it seems fine.
17:35:11 <sethforprivacy> s/> If you want to gain the most privacy from Monero you should convert transparent cryptocurrencies into Monero and use Monero itself to send and receive funds directly. Using Monero as a mixer is a very dangerous approach and has far too many ways to shoot yourself in the foot. If you're using Monero natively you have freedom to transact normally and expect strong privacy guarantees, but if you have a more severe threat
17:35:11 <sethforprivacy> model you should be sure to run your own node and only use that when transacting. Thankfully Monero makes transactional privacy extremely easy and handles the hard work for the user, so there is very little to be intentional about unless you have a much more severe threat model than most people./> If you want to gain the most privacy from Monero you should convert transparent cryptocurrencies into Monero and use Monero itself
17:35:11 <sethforprivacy> to send and receive funds directly. Using Monero as a mixer is a very dangerous approach and has far too many ways to shoot yourself in the foot. If you're using Monero natively you have freedom to transact normally and expect strong privacy guarantees due to its holistic approach to privacy by default​. Thankfully Monero makes transactional privacy extremely easy and handles the hard work for the user, so there is very
17:35:11 <sethforprivacy> little to be intentional about unless you have a much more severe threat model than most people. One of the simplest steps to improving your privacy and self-sovereignty when using Monero is to run your own node which is much easier than most expect it to be!/
17:35:16 <sethforprivacy> SerHack: Thanks, updated a bit!
17:41:50 <Rucknium[m]> Seth For Privacy: You probably want to cite this:
17:41:51 <Rucknium[m]> https://monero.observer/elliptic-liat-shetret-no-blockchain-analytics-company-can-track-monero/
17:43:20 <sethforprivacy> Great, added in a context section, thanks!
17:43:28 <sethforprivacy> Was trying to track that one down but couldn't remember who had said it 🙂
17:45:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> <nioc> "mjxmr falsely claiming sockpuppe..." <- Smh
17:46:15 <nioc> ofrnxmr[m]: just catching up to see in what context it was
17:47:03 <Rucknium[m]> Amount and timing linking is quite dangerous to anyone who uses Monero as a pass-though "mixer". Think of a motorist who is spotted in two different places at different times by law enforcement, but it is impossible to drive the distance under the speed limit. It doesn't matter that the formal link (transaction graph in the case of Monero; direct speed reading in the case of the motorist) is not recorded.
17:47:28 <nioc> ask not what monero can do for you, ask what you can do for monero™
17:48:26 <ajs_[m]> Seth For Privacy: also on CipherTrace's claim on filling a patent tracing monero... anyone can fill file a patent, it doesn't mean one will actually be granted
17:49:04 <Rucknium[m]> Stay in Monero. Enjoy the privacy.
17:49:05 <sethforprivacy> ajs_[m]: They also have the claimed solution they sell for $16k, but no details on that and no evidence of its use.
17:50:04 <ajs_[m]> it is come practice for start ups to file non sense patents in hopes of attracting gullible investors
17:51:04 <ajs_[m]> *common practice
18:16:40 <merope> <ajs_[m]> "Seth For Privacy: also on..." <- The patents were actually for *a graphical application that can show the chain analysis data* - but not for any *actual chain analysis method*
18:17:08 <merope> So they only patented a pretty interface
19:55:09 <kravmag7> $16,000 to track monero? That's cheap. Brb gonna bust some drug dealers
21:37:25 <luigi1112> rehrar is very easy to reach, let me know if you need something out of him cc msvb-web 
23:00:45 <msvb-web> Dankon luigi1112. My mistake was forgetting the RTC platform he likes to use. We got in touch successfully.
23:46:21 <dartian[m]> whatever happened to jberman: 's efforts? this soul was doing v good things last I recall. we talked about it at an event this year
23:46:44 <selsta> what do you mean with what happened?
23:46:52 <dartian[m]> (in person)
23:47:00 <selsta> what he worked on?
23:48:40 <selsta> he worked on view tags and some daemon related fixes https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pulls?q=is:pr+author:j-berman+is:closed