00:12:28 <escapethe3ra[m]> https://monero.observer/monero-cli-wallet-cheat-sheet/
02:33:36 <bullskey[m]> Hey, just joined here
02:33:59 <bullskey[m]> What docs should i read to become big brain
02:34:10 <bullskey[m]> Also does monero use rust ?
02:34:16 <bullskey[m]> * big brain?
02:36:42 <chesterfield[m]> How big of a brain are we talking? Are you looking to write code/research or do you want to be a power user? 
02:36:43 <chesterfield[m]> or both
02:37:23 <bullskey[m]> chesterfield[m]: I am not a dev, literally just started to code, just started to learn my first language (chose rust) by big brain i meant understand how the monero tech works
02:38:18 <bullskey[m]> I am also curious to see if monero is written using Rust at all ?
02:43:17 <plowsof[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/monero c++ , but there are rust things out there e.g https://github.com/monero-rs/monero-rs (for some reason the very mention of rust and monero in the same sentence is controversial)
02:43:20 <chesterfield[m]> There are 2 good Monero books: https://web.getmonero.org/library/Zero-to-Monero-2-0-0.pdf and Mastering Monero https://masteringmonero.com/ .
02:44:01 <bullskey[m]> plowsof[m]: Why is it controversial lmao ? 
02:51:00 <chesterfield[m]> There are also some Monero-related bounties here if you want to contribute and get paid in XMR: https://bounties.monero.social/
02:52:19 <plowsof[m]> random monero-rust project to look at too https://github.com/busyboredom/acceptxmr
02:52:57 <bullskey[m]> plowsof[m]: Was not aware monero could build projects, like does it have smart contracts ? 
02:53:30 <plowsof[m]> smart contracts is perhaps even more controversial 
02:53:32 <bullskey[m]> chesterfield[m]: Why is the monero atomic swap btc so bad in UI/UX
02:54:00 <bullskey[m]> plowsof[m]: Why is rust controversial with monero ? And why would smart contracts be ?? 
02:54:07 <kayabaNerve_> plowsof[m]: It's only controversial if you don't appreciate superior languages ;)
02:54:21 <bullskey[m]> What are the arguments
02:54:27 <bullskey[m]> I genuinely want to read on
02:54:48 <kayabaNerve_> SCs aren't supported by XMR. They're non-private expensive bloat which don't offer benefit to being a private currency
02:55:30 <bullskey[m]> kayabaNerve_: Whats SCs ? 
02:55:30 <kayabaNerve> There's still projects around Monero in Rust. monero-rs is a huge lib, the first atomic swap impl was in Rust, the first widely used atomic swap impl was in Rust, and Farcaster is :p
02:55:39 <kayabaNerve> I'm also working on code in Rust 
02:55:42 <kayabaNerve> Smart Contracts
02:55:53 <plowsof[m]> evening kayaba , c++ devs seething 
02:56:13 <kayabaNerve> cope
02:56:15 <kayabaNerve> :p
02:56:55 <kayabaNerve> Different languages are beneficial for different things. If you want to learn about how Monero works, the links from chester are solid
02:56:59 <plowsof[m]> lol, and yeah smart contacts always make the news for being exploited 
02:57:08 <kayabaNerve> Monero itself is not in Rust and will not add a Rust toolchain as a build requirement.
02:57:22 <kayabaNerve> At least, not without an extremely large reason, which no one has provided yet.
02:57:45 <bullskey[m]> Is C++ better for privacy or sum ?
02:57:47 <kayabaNerve> General language appreciation and memory safety unfortunately are not considered significant enough :(
02:58:05 <kayabaNerve> Rust didn't really exist as a viable option when Bytecoin was originally written
02:58:09 <kayabaNerve> And Bitcoin was in C++
02:58:16 <kayabaNerve> And Monero was a fork of Bytecoin
02:58:37 <kayabaNerve> And sure, Rust has been viable for a while but... why would we destroy our functional codebase and fragment existing environments by adding it?
02:59:00 <bullskey[m]> What about smart contracts ? Why is it controversial ?
02:59:12 <kayabaNerve> I already answered that one
02:59:19 <bullskey[m]> kayabaNerve: Where
02:59:35 <kayabaNerve> Right before you asked me what SCs were
03:00:01 <bullskey[m]> kayabaNerve: Ohh SC = smart contracts
03:00:14 <kayabaNerve> Right, I also answered that :p
03:00:41 <bullskey[m]> Sorry the whole element app kinda different to what i am used to
03:00:49 <bullskey[m]> All messages are together, gets confusing
03:02:05 <bullskey[m]> <kayabaNerve_> "SCs aren't supported by XMR..." <- How would they be non private if built on privacy blockchain ? 
03:04:59 <kayabanerve[m]> Private blockchains aren't magically private
03:05:09 <kayabanerve[m]> They're private as they implement cryptography to achieve privacy
03:05:33 <kayabanerve[m]> Monero uses RingCTs to create transactions with confidential amounts and ring signatures to obscure the sender
03:05:57 <kayabanerve[m]> If we add in a VM which operates off data, like the EVM... it won't magically be private. It'll expect public data and work with it
03:06:16 <bullskey[m]> Is that ringCT tech all explained in the docs yall sent me previously ?
03:06:27 <kayabanerve[m]> "So modify it to use private data!" Cool. Let me know when you have a full VM spec which successfully executes fully private data
03:06:31 <kayabanerve[m]> Then we can discuss performance, ease of integration, usage likelihood, caveats...
03:06:35 <kayabanerve[m]> bullskey[m]: Yes
03:06:40 <kayabanerve[m]> Also, where are you from lol
03:07:00 <bullskey[m]> I am Canadian from Iraq
03:07:07 <bullskey[m]> What about you mate ?
03:07:15 <kayabanerve[m]> y'all is the most southern slang possible yet I don't think you're a native English speaker :P
03:07:17 <kayabanerve[m]> Or young
03:07:18 <bullskey[m]> kayabanerve[m]: Is this ever likely to happen ?
03:07:34 <bullskey[m]> kayabanerve[m]: Yeah just young hahahah
03:07:42 <kayabanerve[m]> I spent my teenage years in Texas :) Regardless, not relevant right now.
03:07:57 <kayabanerve[m]> bullskey[m]: There have been a few attempts, yet none I'd call successful nor worthy of discussion regarding Monero.
03:08:04 <kayabanerve[m]> The current one making the rounds is Darkfi.
03:08:27 <kayabanerve[m]> There is a mathematical proof it's impossible to execute arbitrary private code for arbitrary data IIRC though lol
03:08:42 <bullskey[m]> I heard of other anonmyous cryptos L1 making smart contracts, are they not good ?
03:09:01 <bullskey[m]> Did not dig into them yet
03:09:30 <bullskey[m]> kayabanerve[m]: What is IIRC ?!
03:09:34 <bullskey[m]> > <@kayabanerve:matrix.org> There is a mathematical proof it's impossible to execute arbitrary private code for arbitrary data IIRC though lol
03:09:34 <bullskey[m]>  * What is IIRC ??
03:09:39 <kayabaNerve> If I recall correctly.
03:10:10 <kayabaNerve> One which claims private smart contracts is Dero, yet they don't have private smart contracts. It's all public data.
03:10:31 <kayabaNerve> They do offer private token balances though, yet I believe any operations on said balances publicly doxx them.
03:11:06 <kayabaNerve> So Darkfi is letting users write ZK circuits for SCs IIRC, and they're a project that exists. I don't care to comment further on them at this time. I'm not experienced with them and this isn't the place for that
03:12:11 <bullskey[m]> Okay thanks
03:13:19 <bullskey[m]> By the way how does monero project update the code ?
03:13:27 <bullskey[m]> Like is there a centralized team ?
03:13:33 <bullskey[m]> Or is there some sort of DAO ?
03:15:15 <plowsof[m]> no DAO, there is a general fund people donate to, and community crowdfunding system (ccs) https://ccs.getmonero.org/
03:17:09 <kayabanerve[m]> bullskey[m]: There's a GitHub repo acknowledged as Monero by the community which has a variety of community members contributing
03:17:35 <kayabanerve[m]> There is a group of people who are the admins, yet they're not a centralized team. They're individuals.
03:18:14 <kayabaNerve> I've submitted a review on PRs even though I'm not a PR. People just pitch in
03:18:28 <bullskey[m]> kayabanerve[m]: Well it is a centralized group, like if somehow they all disappear, would the project still be able to progress ?  
03:18:49 <kayabanerve[m]> It's not a centralized group. It's a group with a central definition. There's a distinction.
03:19:12 <kayabanerve[m]> If every human on Earth disappeared, the project wouldn't be able to progress.
03:19:17 <kayabanerve[m]> If you kill off every person willing to contribute, it wouldn't progress either.
03:19:44 <kayabanerve[m]> So sure, removing this group would halt contributions to that repository. That doesn't make it a centralized group. It makes it a decentralized group centrally defined on GitHub.
03:20:02 <kayabanerve[m]> Someone would fork Monero and it'd continue. Sure, it'd fracture, but one group would be the largest.
03:20:08 <kayabanerve[m]> And that largest group would be Monero.
03:20:30 <bullskey[m]> This answers my question thanks
03:20:41 <kayabanerve[m]> I'm not an admin on GH yet I'm known around the community. I could have a fork :p So could you.
03:21:02 <kayabanerve[m]> But I assume the community would prefer my fork to yours and prefer a few others to mine
03:21:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> kayabanerve[m]: As I do
03:21:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> And run code that isn't merged
03:21:35 <bullskey[m]> Is there any planning in the world to build a Github type of plateform but more decentralized ?
03:21:46 <kayabanerve[m]> Regarding funding, there's the general fund, MAGIC, CCS, and recently we had a few organizational sponsorships
03:22:00 <kayabanerve[m]> Git is decentralized.
03:22:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> kayabanerve[m]: I run a fork of selstas fork :P
03:22:10 <bullskey[m]> kayabanerve[m]: But it needs admins
03:22:19 <kayabanerve[m]> ofrnxmr: Do I dare ask why? :p
03:22:31 <kayabanerve[m]> I actually wouldn't mind a fork which was more aggressive on merging code clean ups tbh
03:22:51 <kayabanerve[m]> bullskey: Nope. You can spawn your own server and move Monero there now
03:22:59 <kayabanerve[m]> Hf
03:23:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> bullskey[m]: Code if freely available to mirror wherever you want
03:23:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> Wownero mirrors moneros GitHub on their own git server
03:23:21 <kayabanerve[m]> You are correct that branches need some level of access control, sure.
03:23:35 <kayabanerve[m]> But even if everyone only had a personal branch, I'd coordinate with ofrnxmr and we'd combine our work occasionally
03:24:01 <kayabanerve[m]> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The community can decide who they trust more to use as their build source and the project would continue
03:24:14 <kayabanerve[m]> If you want to decentralize access control... you can't really
03:24:21 <kayabanerve[m]> What makes anyone more worthy of access control than someone else?
03:24:36 <bullskey[m]> kayabanerve[m]: Yeah that, well what if monero had a program where people can propose code and then we can vote on whether or not monero should adopt it
03:24:41 <kayabanerve[m]> How would you determine voting?
03:24:59 <kayabanerve[m]> The community implicitly votes by updating their nodes as releases are issued. We don't need an explicit process
03:24:59 <bullskey[m]> kayabanerve[m]: With token holders is a starters
03:25:12 <bullskey[m]> kayabanerve[m]: Ohhhh
03:25:12 <kayabanerve[m]> It's unneeded bureaucracy which would massively slow things down
03:25:16 <kayabanerve[m]> bullskey[m]: Balances are private?
03:25:28 <kayabanerve[m]> Saying I have more money than you so I deserve more control is bullshit?
03:25:28 <bullskey[m]> kayabanerve[m]: Are they private to the network too?
03:25:42 <kayabanerve[m]> bullskey[m]: That is what private means
03:25:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yes
03:25:55 <bullskey[m]> kayabanerve[m]: Thats not the idea -> its i am more invested so i should have more to say since i have more risk
03:25:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> Do you own any monero
03:26:06 <bullskey[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Yes
03:26:17 <kayabanerve[m]> bullskey[m]: ... no, I got that's the idea
03:26:20 <kayabanerve[m]> It's still bullshit lol
03:26:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> Sounds like you own monero on binance
03:26:42 <bullskey[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Nice story bro
03:27:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> Vote?
03:27:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> Proof of stake? Governance? Oxen
03:27:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> Free merging? Wownero
03:27:14 <kayabanerve[m]> Considering you didn't know how Monero is private... yeah, sounds like you only have XMR on an exchange lol
03:27:14 <plowsof[m]> masternodes??
03:27:26 <kayabanerve[m]> So exchanges would be massively over represented as effective delegates
03:27:40 <kayabanerve[m]> And they could vote to halt the network under your model when no one would want that
03:27:44 <kayabanerve[m]> But the community wouldn't upgrade
03:27:45 <kayabanerve[m]> And monero would continue
03:27:47 <kayabanerve[m]> But guess what?
03:27:53 <kayabanerve[m]> That's the current system
03:28:08 <kayabanerve[m]> So why would we turn it into some corporate bureaucracy nightmare in the meantime
03:28:27 <plowsof[m]> so i can make 500% apr of course 
03:29:07 <kayabanerve[m]> plowsof[m]: i will support the corporate bureaucracy if its first act is to give me 51% shares.
03:29:13 <bullskey[m]> kayabanerve[m]: I dont get the idea of attempting to  making fun of someone for having different views. Or just questioning around. It’s unnecessary drama. 
03:29:16 <kayabanerve[m]> Then I will give myself and plowsof 500% apr 
03:29:37 <ofrnxmr[m]> plowsof[m]: Just stake like ETH, forever
03:29:43 <bullskey[m]> kayabanerve[m]: Well the whole point of more tokens = more vote is also to counter bots
03:29:44 <plowsof[m]> Thank you. i would wrap them , stake them and lock them in a smart fund to gain extra ++%
03:29:48 <kayabanerve[m]> Jokes aside, that'd immediately make Monero extremely questionable legally. The SEC really does say mess around and find out
03:30:00 <kayabanerve[m]> bullskey[m]: I wasn't making fun of you. I was saying you're new to this.
03:30:16 <kayabanerve[m]> I don't mind that you appreciate Monero and want to learn more. I'm saying you don't have experience with Monero.
03:30:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> bullskey[m]: No. The whole point of money is to run an economy 
03:30:35 <kayabanerve[m]> And I will say I mind you suggesting radical changes completely contrary to our ethos when you don't actually know Monero
03:30:50 <kayabanerve[m]> It's like if I walked into BTC and just submitted a PR to move Satoshi's coins to my public key
03:30:51 <kayabanerve[m]> ... why
03:30:56 <kayabanerve[m]> ... why would anyone support me on that
03:31:02 <kayabanerve[m]> why would i ever think that's appropriate to do
03:31:11 <bullskey[m]> kayabanerve[m]: Thats not what i am trying to do, sorry if it came off that way -> thats just my way of questioning around to understand
03:31:18 <bullskey[m]> Like how you guys work and think
03:31:40 <kayabanerve[m]> I'd recommend reading the provided documents, or even just some links from getmonero ;) It'll help fill you in on why Monero exists
03:31:41 <bullskey[m]> I am not suggesting anything
03:31:49 <kayabanerve[m]> Instead of proposing changes, I'd ask why Monero has its current behavior
03:31:59 <kayabanerve[m]> Like asking why Rust/SCs are a pain. That's good :)
03:32:27 <kayabanerve[m]> "Why doesn't Monero have token voting" <- Much better phrasing
03:32:38 <kayabanerve[m]> One is proposing it to some degree. One is learning the community. Should work better :)
03:32:44 <kayabanerve[m]> And then yes, we're happy to answer questions
03:33:09 <bullskey[m]> English is my third language, of course its not your fault. Just something i have to work on 🙂
03:33:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or, "how does monero work without token voting"
03:34:00 <kayabanerve[m]> bullskey[m]: Sure. We'll try to keep that in mind. Thanks for your clarifications :)
03:34:16 <kayabanerve[m]> ofrnxmr: Considering it does sound to be a slight language barrier, probably best to move on for now :)
03:34:37 <bullskey[m]> Alright thanks for all the help, will go to sleep. Getting late here. Will defo read up tomorrow on the docs you guys shared 💪🏽👋🏽
03:36:22 <kayabanerve[m]> Definitely. Let us know if you have questions. Balances aren't public to the network or anyone without your private view key though ;)
03:36:23 <plowsof[m]> i did say that SC's where controversial 😳
03:36:39 <kayabanerve[m]> plowsof[m]: Not if we're the ones getting that yield though ;p
03:36:48 <kayabanerve[m]> SCs on Monero would be a horrible idea
03:37:18 <kayabanerve[m]> I just like joking around a bit late at night outside of -dev and -research :p
03:37:20 <plowsof[m]> Its just money 🤷
03:39:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> The thing is, there are many takes on monero already 
03:39:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Oxen, mobilecoin, both proof of stake
03:39:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Wownero has much less (no?) scrutiny when it comes to merges 
03:43:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monero is one of the most professional groups of randoms, because we all take this money thing seriously.
03:43:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> Does Bitcoin have community meetings? 
03:44:41 <plowsof[m]> they have board meetings where all the rich / big miners meet and decide whats happening
03:45:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> I was about to say 😅😅
03:45:19 <plowsof[m]> i think most of them are not devs
03:45:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> I mean, meeting where regular folk can affect change ?
03:47:47 <plowsof[m]> bitcoinminingcouncil .com ? 
03:48:01 <plowsof[m]> microstrategy... etc
03:48:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> People in bitcoin are all just along for the ride. 
03:48:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> If an improvement can be made etc, in monero, most times it will be.
03:48:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> In other coins (or governance) you have to have money or pay to vote. Which means, even if your idea is genius.. you can be blocked by rich "miners" *cough* corporations 
03:50:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> Bitmain/antpool
03:51:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> Imagine minexmr being able to vote on "monero improvement proposals"
03:52:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> * Imagine minexmr "miners" being able
03:53:04 <plowsof[m]> increase tx fees and smaller / fixed block sizes merged
03:55:03 <plowsof[m]> with monero i can join monero-dev and ask moo why my balance is 0 , there is a beauty in that 
03:55:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> And moo will answer, even if you meeeeeoooww for 3 days 
03:55:52 <plowsof[m]> :((((((((((((((((
03:57:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> I got Giacomo to agree to do a chat with Seth and Doug 
04:01:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> I think guys like tone are pretty slow. Giacomo seems to be a smart guy. Either he comes out of the convo "enlightened".. or in denial
12:07:09 <r4v3r23[m]> basic question: should a wallet sync the entire blockchain even when a restore height is set?
12:07:44 <r4v3r23[m]> i expected the wallet to just start at that block height but its going back 2.6 million blocks
13:09:09 <nioc> same happened to me.  It seems that the blocks before the restore height were scanned very quickly.
13:42:26 <r4v3r23[m]> <nioc> "same happened to me.  It seems..." <- yeah, and grinds to a halt when it hits the restore height
13:43:23 <dsc_> r4v3r23[m]: no that should not happen, what wallet exaclty are you using?
13:43:48 <nioc> I was using CLI
13:43:59 <r4v3r23[m]> dsc_: shruum (monerujo fork)
13:45:21 <dsc_> the terminology is 'refreshing' btw
13:45:33 <spirobel[m]> <plowsof[m]> "no DAO, there is a general..." <- hm...I think the CCS and the bounties are a DAO. People are not in one spot. -> so its decentralized. You cant really tell anyone what to do. -> so it is autonomous. And people organize there together . -> so its an an organization. Combine these three things and you can see its a DAO. It looks like a DAO, it walks like a DAO and it quacks like a DAO. So it is a DAO.  
13:45:34 <dsc_> syncing is the downloading of blocks, while refreshing scans transactions
13:47:04 <dsc_> either way, shruum should not do that, and it sounds like a reproducible issue, so you might want to create an issue on their tracker
13:47:24 <dsc_> nioc: as for CLI, I blame cat
13:47:39 <r4v3r23[m]> dsc_: monerujo/shruum uses "sync" instead of refreshing
13:47:49 <nioc> *Cat
13:48:39 <ooo123ooo1234567> spirobel[m]: supermarket + it's customers is DAO too according to your definitions; facepalm
13:48:44 <spirobel[m]> spirobel[m]: we did DAOs before it was cool. I would even say Silkroad was a DAO. proabably the first one. the darknet markets were a prototype for DAOs and the web3.
13:50:02 <spirobel[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: no. they are all in one spot and they are not autonomous. ( its a company regulated by law) better analogy would be an informal street sellers market. But that is not decentralized because the people are all in one spot. Facepalm 😆
13:51:46 <ooo123ooo1234567> spirobel[m]: online supermarket not registered legally + it's customers; facepalm
13:53:23 <spirobel[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: you seem like one of these  goofy "DAO word bad" NPCs. what you say makes zero sense. Online supermarkets are of course registered legally. facepalm 🤪 
13:53:53 <spirobel[m]> probably you are just a rotten alt.
13:54:00 <spirobel[m]> post link to github or other socials
13:54:12 <ooo123ooo1234567> spirobel[m]: No, it's just you who don't understand what you're talking about
13:54:18 <r4v3r23[m]> spirobel[m]: no, oo123 actually knows his shit
13:54:27 <dukenukem> seemingly rotten lives rent free in your head, doesn't he? spirobel[m]
13:54:39 <r4v3r23[m]> also happens to be a class A troll
13:54:52 <dukenukem> takes one to know one, mr. r4v3r23.
13:55:04 <r4v3r23[m]> dukenukem: thank you sir
13:55:17 <dukenukem> you are welcome, clown.
13:56:05 <r4v3r23[m]> dukenukem: aww youre butthurt. not sure what i did to you but im sure you deserved it
13:56:43 <dukenukem> ah, not only are you a wannabe troll, you also judge what people deserve and don't. marvelous.
13:57:11 <r4v3r23[m]> dukenukem: all of the above, plus more
13:57:21 <dukenukem> cool story, croatan larper.
13:57:29 <spirobel[m]> <ooo123ooo1234567> "online supermarket not registere..." <- your examples are just incredibly stupid. For a dao to be a dao all 3 conditions must be met. 
13:57:35 <r4v3r23[m]> dukenukem: LMAO
13:57:43 <spirobel[m]> spirobel[m]: whats so hard to understand about that?
13:58:13 <r4v3r23[m]> looks like ive got a stalker and fan
14:00:13 <spirobel[m]> r4v3r23[m]: happy pride month to you two
14:06:24 <nioc> https://p2pool.io/tail.html
14:13:45 <ooo123ooo1234567> <spirobel[m]> "your examples are just incredibl..." <- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralized_autonomous_organization, "... in other words they are member-owned communities without centralized leadership" is it applicable to current environment ?
15:16:02 <nioc> don't remember whether it was this channel or the monero one that brought up new york state banning pow mining.  The bill not passed yet and it would "only" temporarily halt new crypto-mining projects at fossil-fuel burning plants  
15:31:43 <spirobel[m]> <ooo123ooo1234567> "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..." <- yes. I would say so. Who owns the monero community and the code?  "rules encoded as a computer program that is often transparent, controlled by the organization's members and not influenced by a central government," <--- that is exactly what Monero is. So by this definition we are a DAO. And that is cool 😎
15:32:49 <ooo123ooo1234567> spirobel[m]: I would say no. There are no rules and there is no explicit membership
15:34:10 <spirobel[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: But that is because you have this narrow defintion in your mind that means DAO="smart contract written in solidity + a bunch of degens" The definition that we just read is broader. 
15:36:14 <Siren[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: There are rules to CCS proposals and overall participating in the matrix chats, which is the current environment we are in.
15:37:10 <spirobel[m]> 1.Monero is a computer program.  2. its source code is transparent. 3.It is controlled by us.  There is no law that states that membership of a group must be explicit. (it opens up the danger of community attacks when the boundaries of the group are too fluid, but at the same time it allows rapid, non permissioned innovation. So it is a tradeoff how rigid you want to be about who is a member of the group or not.) 
15:38:43 <chesterfield[m]> <ooo123ooo1234567> "I would say no. There are no..." <- The Monero dao is an invisible make believe box living in peoples heads
15:38:57 <chesterfield[m]> Rent free of course
15:39:33 <Siren[m]> Unironically monero dao pays my rent
15:40:40 <spirobel[m]> chesterfield[m]: so it is undeniably a thing. We all experience it. 😀
15:44:42 <chesterfield[m]> Monero may function today mostly through a dao but I wouldn’t confuse it with a dao being essential to Monero
15:47:12 <Siren[m]> <spirobel[m]> "so it is undeniably a thing..." <- This sounds a lot like an [ontological argument](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_argument) but we exist for sure :D 
15:49:27 <ooo123ooo1234567> <Siren[m]> "Unironically monero dao pays..." <- What are you doing for monero according to your subjective opinion ? Any example of the most complex / useful thing ?
15:51:00 <chesterfield[m]> I would consider the eternal September scenario and or a situation where a group of nation state funded developers who want nothing to do with the current codebase or community begin writing thousands of lines of code per day
15:54:44 <Siren[m]> <ooo123ooo1234567> "What are you doing for monero..." <- I'm working on several projects. First one is a payment processor however not many people use it. Second project is a website in which you can buy giftcards (of gas stations, drugstores, every single mall and the biggest supermarket chain in where I live) for XMR. I'm working to automate purchasing and sales of these cards. I don't think I'm allowed to talk about the third
15:54:44 <Siren[m]> project yet but it's going to launch in a few weeks. As a small clue I can say that it has to do with telecommunication. Both of these projects rely on my payment processor. And what do you that is useful for the community?
15:55:50 <monerobull[m]> p2pool mini observer is broken
15:56:00 <spirobel[m]> <chesterfield[m]> "Monero may function today mostly..." <- I think it is essential. The eternal September will happen once people realize that it requires a fundamental change in how society operates. People shouldn't organize in companies and nation sates anymore. A different structure is necessary. 
15:57:00 <plowsof[m]> unrelated: matrix users can stop the 'is typing' packet by blocking the request url in their browsers network devtools e.g. block https://matrix-client.matrix.org/_matrix/client/r0/rooms/!WzzKmkfUkXPHFERgvm%3Amatrix.org/typing/%40plowsof%3Amatrix.org
15:59:44 <Siren[m]> <Siren[m]> "I'm working on several projects...." <- I also push other companies/organizations that I offer system administration to accept XMR and offer Tor services/mirrors. Been successful a few times.
16:01:18 <Siren[m]> * I also push other companies/organizations that I offer system administration to, to accept XMR and offer Tor services/mirrors. Been successful a few times.