00:00:59 <BusyBoredom[m]1> Soiledcold, try not to be discouraged by ooo123, he's a little harsh in his criticism of everyone. 
00:00:59 <BusyBoredom[m]1> This is definitely one of those cases where thorough research of existing solutions is important though (unless you're just making something for fun for yourself, of course). You can learn a lot from other people's stuff. 
00:02:44 <soiledcold[m]> plowsof[m]: Yup, plus this is also going to help my project on spreading Monero in Punjab, India. I was just on a call with a small electric company in Punjab and they said they will eventually take monero once our thing is done. (it's for person to person not digital)
00:03:11 <soiledcold[m]> > <@busyboredom:monero.social> Soiledcold, try not to be discouraged by ooo123, he's a little harsh in his criticism of everyone. 
00:03:11 <soiledcold[m]> > 
00:03:11 <soiledcold[m]> > This is definitely one of those cases where thorough research of existing solutions is important though (unless you're just making something for fun for yourself, of course). You can learn a lot from other people's stuff.
00:03:11 <soiledcold[m]> We actually have been looking at some other payment processors to get an idea on how we can make ours better but I totally agree
00:03:48 <ofrnxmr[m]1> https://github.com/btcpayserver
00:03:59 <ofrnxmr[m]1> <plowsof[m]> "https://github.com/CryptoGrampy..." <- ^
00:04:02 <soiledcold[m]> ofrnxmr[m]1: They aren't the greatest tbh
00:04:17 <soiledcold[m]> not tech wise but more ideological 
00:04:35 <soiledcold[m]> but i do agree with y'all
00:04:45 <ofrnxmr[m]1> And hotshop is a webapp
00:04:45 <ofrnxmr[m]1> You can "install" it and and pin/freeze it so it cent be dismissed.
00:04:45 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Kiosk mode doesnt allow navigation
00:04:53 <plowsof[m]> we can all send an invoice to the Monero ceo for 1 hour meeting / consultancy work , if anyone else wants to join in on the invoice let me know 
00:05:16 <ofrnxmr[m]1> plowsof[m]: Ooo approves of this msg
00:06:11 <ofrnxmr[m]1> soiledcold[m]: What do you require that isnt offered by btcpay or flipstarter-waas
00:06:35 <soiledcold[m]> ofrnxmr[m]1: no im not saying that is doesn't offer much I just don't like the dev team personally
00:06:39 <soiledcold[m]> but im looking at hotshop rn
00:06:48 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Ok and you want funding? 
00:06:53 <ofrnxmr[m]1> You're not a dev
00:07:16 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Fork it.
00:07:26 <ooo123ooo1234567> > <@busyboredom:monero.social> Soiledcold, try not to be discouraged by ooo123, he's a little harsh in his criticism of everyone. 
00:07:26 <ooo123ooo1234567> > 
00:07:26 <ooo123ooo1234567> > This is definitely one of those cases where thorough research of existing solutions is important though (unless you're just making something for fun for yourself, of course). You can learn a lot from other people's stuff.
00:07:26 <ooo123ooo1234567> There is nothing to talk about with a developer that didn't look firstly into available open source alternative for another payment processor. It's just pure scam. That's it.
00:07:39 <plowsof[m]> waas is just 0-conf donations, no strings attached* garlix.io appears to be functional already, and looks nice, the funding is to 'add monero' - it does look like a nice project 
00:07:58 <soiledcold[m]> I might just use the hotshop pos tbh
00:07:59 <soiledcold[m]> it looks really nice
00:08:07 <soiledcold[m]> does anyone know if it will be a mobile app tho?
00:08:07 <ofrnxmr[m]1> And its not finished yet
00:08:12 <soiledcold[m]> cuz if it is then I can use it
00:08:16 <soiledcold[m]> ofrnxmr[m]1: hotshop?
00:08:25 <ofrnxmr[m]1> #monero-community-dev:monero.social to talk to cryptogrampy
00:08:44 <ofrnxmr[m]1> * to cryptogrampy about hotshot dev
00:08:47 <soiledcold[m]> Thanks!
00:08:49 <ofrnxmr[m]1> soiledcold[m]: Correct
00:09:03 <soiledcold[m]> perfect, im gonna look into it
00:09:04 <soiledcold[m]> thanks for the feedback everyone
00:09:49 <ofrnxmr[m]1> I believe he has prelim NFC working, exchange rates, integrated addresses and more
00:10:14 <ofrnxmr[m]1> soiledcold[m]: But please, if you need to raise money for stuff that has preexisting solutions, dont use ccs
00:10:29 <soiledcold[m]> ofrnxmr[m]1: sounds good, thanks again!
00:10:33 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Flipstarter-waas was created for fundraising goals that dont require approval
00:10:39 <BusyBoredom[m]1> Cryptogrampy is a beast, I did not expect hotshop to get this far this quickly. 
00:10:49 <soiledcold[m]> ofrnxmr[m]1: I do, my whole exchange is finished
00:11:02 <soiledcold[m]> just working on apis for coingecko
00:11:27 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Yea, cryptogrampy is using coingecko I believe
00:12:03 <ofrnxmr[m]1> <plowsof[m]> "there is a bit of a backlog of..." <- Check all of this out for fundraising 
00:15:08 <cryptogrampy[m]> <soiledcold[m]> "does anyone know if it will be a..." <- Hi- HotShop will not be a mobile app in the very near future.  It will be web first and maybe then a heavily cached PWA.  It can be turned into an android WebView quite easily and I would welcome any PR's
00:15:52 <cryptogrampy[m]> For a real payment processor accepting online payments, you will need to do verification on the backend
00:16:28 <soiledcold[m]> cryptogrampy[m]: It looks really good so far, I didn’t know about it until this chat. So if I got this set up a couple of my friends businesses they would just need to put this on a phone or smth and everything else is simple right?
00:16:34 <cryptogrampy[m]> HotShop verifies on the front end and is meant to use a human cashier to validate someone isn't hacking the system / making bogus payments
00:16:44 <soiledcold[m]> Is there any way an employee could change the address?
00:16:49 <soiledcold[m]> Or is it password protected
00:17:22 <cryptogrampy[m]> Is there any way to prevent an employee from taking cash as a payment instead of using the app?
00:18:30 <cryptogrampy[m]> If I get PWA working, you could pin the app in kiosk mode as someone mentioned earlier
00:18:47 <cryptogrampy[m]> On androids, pinned apps are password protected so you won't be able to make any changes
00:19:12 <cryptogrampy[m]> Would work well for a POS used by maybe less trust worthy people
00:19:23 <soiledcold[m]> cryptogrampy[m]: That’s true, didn’t think of it like that!
00:19:45 <cryptogrampy[m]> But at the end of the day, a barista can just take cash, skip the POS and give someone a coffee
00:20:37 <cryptogrampy[m]> I've been a bit busy the past couple weeks, but I hope to make more progress on HotShop very soon.  I have pwa roughly working 🙃
00:21:03 <ofrnxmr[m]1> soiledcold[m]: If would probably be (not too hard) to password protect the address field? cryptogrampy: 
00:22:08 <cryptogrampy[m]> I feel like password protecting it is a bit too much security theatre, pinning and using the android app password is much more secure
00:22:19 <cryptogrampy[m]> Someone could just change the url 
00:22:35 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Yeah yeah, 2 steps ahead of me
00:22:57 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Admin page = already password protected using device password
00:23:31 <ofrnxmr[m]1> (To get out of kiosk mode, and employees would be using kiosk mode)
00:23:32 <cryptogrampy[m]> Yeah I think you would basically have a kiosk pwa bookmark on your home screen
00:24:04 <cryptogrampy[m]> I will also be adding a button that enters the app into kiosk mode
00:24:21 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Let me know as soon as I can test pwa :p 
00:24:26 <cryptogrampy[m]> So you could start the admin pwa, make any changes if necessary, pin the app, hit the kiosk button and you're good to go
00:24:40 <cryptogrampy[m]> It's kind of a one way button
00:24:54 <cryptogrampy[m]> Once you enter kiosk, you can't escape
00:25:06 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Have to password and close the app to get back to admin, which is perfectly fine imo
00:25:56 <cryptogrampy[m]> Will see how people like that, I'm totally up for other idea, and in fact the pin would be really nice if people are using it in this pwa mode
00:26:14 <cryptogrampy[m]> Maybe that does make more sense
00:26:16 <ofrnxmr[m]1> I tried it in a "webapp" app, to emulate pwa
00:26:29 <cryptogrampy[m]> Yeah there are some problems with that
00:26:37 <plowsof[m]> the hour is up at 26 mins over the hour. ill tag on any overtime later but just putting this here for now:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/6676b0e9531c3cd45f971dbe2cc97e7b3323e354)
00:27:00 * ofrnxmr[m]1 uploaded an image: (21KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/monero.social/PmuDdeIPWKqOfFhsqHJRPurk/Imagepipe_167.jpg >
00:27:06 <cryptogrampy[m]> You can't really save a profile in the WebView mode
00:28:23 <cryptogrampy[m]> What is a webapp app
00:30:21 <cryptogrampy[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]1> "Let me know as soon as I can..." <- Will do!
00:31:15 <ofrnxmr[m]1> cryptogrampy[m]: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.tobykurien.webapps
00:34:01 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Its not maintained, but it allows you to sandbox any website similar to a pwa
00:34:01 <ofrnxmr[m]1> I have setting set to not show address bar when Launched from shortcut. 
00:34:01 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Useless for now, but good to see hot it would look / act when pinned in fullscreen 
00:34:01 <ofrnxmr[m]1> (Wen darkmode 😌)
00:34:34 <plowsof[m]> can the blocked domains contain wildcards? 👀
00:34:46 <cryptogrampy[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Its not maintained, but it allows you to sandbox any website similar to a pwa... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/40dd628ab3546163fb67f5b60257b05ef87fa81c)
00:35:24 <cryptogrampy[m]> Once the ui stabilizes, will work on themes
00:38:06 <plowsof[m]> matrix users can disable 'read' receipts or 'is typing' with wild card url blockers (or with some /etc/hosts-fu in linux) 
00:39:27 <ooo123ooo1234567> why is so important to repeat it ?
00:39:33 <ooo123ooo1234567>  * why is it so important?
00:39:34 <ooo123ooo1234567>  * why is it so important ?
00:40:39 <plowsof[m]> i get stage-fright 
00:41:23 <plowsof[m]> i always disable read receipts / typing in other messengers, and the matrix devs seems to not allow this in settings 
00:41:38 <plowsof[m]> Element* devs 
00:42:04 <ooo123ooo1234567> stage-fright for your own msgs or for msgs from others ?
00:42:25 <ofrnxmr[m]1> On mobile you can disable "is typing"
00:42:39 <plowsof[m]> BOTH -anxiety++- 
00:46:15 <plowsof[m]> ah thanks ofrnxmr , its right there in the settings to disable 'is typing' 
00:46:35 <plowsof[m]> i can plan my evil statements in peace now 
02:59:50 <zounds[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]1> "https://f-droid.org/en/packages..." <- Slingcode I think does a similar thing but for your own apps, kinda fun 
03:00:09 <zounds[m]> https://slingcode.net/
03:00:38 <zounds[m]> Fun way to test out apps and then use them from a menu
03:01:07 <zounds[m]> (If I'm not misinterpreting what the webapps thing does)
10:51:12 * john_r365[m] uploaded an image: (404KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/monero.social/BWhLwctlnXTUlovAWGPkdwKp/ima_89f22c3.jpeg >
10:52:24 <john_r365[m]> ^ It looks like the Monero integration for Molly (Signal messenger fork) is going to be delayed due to the bear market. 
10:52:24 <john_r365[m]> Oscar just posted the above update. 
10:54:39 <john_r365[m]> Source (last comment): https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/252
10:59:50 <john_r365[m]> Just looking at the CCS - Oscar (nym: valldrac) hasn’t actually claimed any of the milestones yet. 
10:59:50 <john_r365[m]> https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/vd-molly-payments-stage1.html
11:02:28 <john_r365[m]> So it’s been 8 months, work has been done, but now the first milestone is around 50% less than he might have anticipated being paid out. 
11:02:29 <john_r365[m]> Can understand this would cause some issues. 
11:02:29 <john_r365[m]> I guess we’re going to have to get better at this as a community. Ie - hedging volatility risk 
11:07:32 <monerobull[m]> People just need to sell xmr the second they are moved to work in progress 
11:07:58 <monerobull[m]> Obviously not practical for hugely expensive stuff
11:08:52 <monerobull[m]> But if you have like 4k in xmr and your proposal is for ?? Xmr worth 2k, sell 2k instantly and get it back after finishing your work
11:09:16 <monerobull[m]> Zero volatili risk in that
11:09:30 <monerobull[m]> s/volatili/volatility/
11:10:14 <john_r365[m]> Also bare in mind that the current system doesn’t pay people out until they claim their first milestone. 
11:10:15 <john_r365[m]> So those funded would have to change the payout structure such that they’re requesting a % of funds up front - before any work has been done. 
11:10:31 <ofrnxmr[m]1> > <@john_r365:monero.social> Also bare in mind that the current system doesn’t pay people out until they claim their first milestone. 
11:10:31 <ofrnxmr[m]1> > 
11:10:31 <ofrnxmr[m]1> > So those funded would have to change the payout structure such that they’re requesting a % of funds up front - before any work has been done. 
11:10:31 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Or request all up front. 
11:10:38 <ofrnxmr[m]1> But no, everybody WANTS to gamble 
11:11:08 <monerobull[m]> ofrnxmr[m]1: Nope, that's retarded
11:11:25 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Hasnt claimed any milestones yet development is paused? The past 8 months has been unpaid, how does the price affect anything 
11:11:31 <monerobull[m]> Sell your own coins to avoid volatility, get them back after finishing your work, no matter their price
11:11:43 <ofrnxmr[m]1> monerobull[m]: And if you have no coins?
11:12:21 <monerobull[m]> I'm not saying it's perfect but i would assume a lot of people working on monero have some 
11:12:34 <john_r365[m]> Paying them 100% up front makes no sense from the community’s perspective.
11:12:34 <john_r365[m]> The point of milestones is to have accountability and incentivise output 
11:12:44 <ofrnxmr[m]1> > <@john_r365:monero.social> Paying them 100% up front makes no sense from the community’s perspective.
11:12:44 <ofrnxmr[m]1> > 
11:12:44 <ofrnxmr[m]1> > The point of milestones is to have accountability and incentivise output 
11:12:44 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Not true
11:12:51 <monerobull[m]> ???
11:12:59 <ofrnxmr[m]1> People change milestones and contract as they please 
11:13:01 <ofrnxmr[m]1> And still get paid
11:13:11 <monerobull[m]> That's not how it works lol
11:13:11 <ofrnxmr[m]1> "I went to 5 hrs of meetings "
11:13:15 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Was not in original proposal 
11:13:40 <ofrnxmr[m]1> "It took me 6 hours to do my accounting of my hours" ssd not in proposal 
11:13:46 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Was not*
11:18:15 <ofrnxmr[m]1> john_r365: whats the problem? Facts hurt your feelings?
11:18:29 <ofrnxmr[m]1> <ofrnxmr[m]1> "People change milestones and..." <- Once again ^
11:19:11 <john_r365[m]> Oh look here, a troll
11:19:15 <ofrnxmr[m]1> 6 months turn into 6 years, 10xmr turns into 100, reviews turn into accounting, shipping products turns into "in theory" 
11:20:00 <ofrnxmr[m]1> I'm not a troll, I'm a sock puppet.
11:20:42 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Need look no further than MJ's "dev report" for the insane billing that was not in the ccs
11:20:59 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Thats just the most recent example 
11:22:35 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Haveno as well, invoices are funny. No avg sell prices, banking profits, weird dates
11:24:11 <ofrnxmr[m]1> And no usd amounts for the invoice, so trying to do any accounting is a clown show
11:26:59 <ofrnxmr[m]1> <monerobull[m]> "Sell your own coins to avoid..." <- Or request maintainers convert all to fiat at time of merge, if not paying out immedietly 
11:27:19 <ofrnxmr[m]1> But as we went over yesterday, haveno sold the bottom when they held through a 50% profit 
11:27:41 <ofrnxmr[m]1> * But as we went over couple days ago*, haveno sold the bottom when they held through a 50% profit 
11:28:40 <ofrnxmr[m]1> 203 was their target price. 
11:28:40 <ofrnxmr[m]1> They held through 280
11:28:40 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Not quite 30% but you get it.
11:28:57 <ofrnxmr[m]1> s/30/50/
11:37:09 <plowsof[m]> thanks john_r365 for keeping an eye on things, i forgot about this one 👍️ this is a learning experience for future  CCS proposers.. we've seen one ask for 50% upfront and still manage to suffer which i think is the most realistic way of handling things (ideally only for trusted / regular contributors that could probably use direct donation systems like a wishlist (see monerujo)) - MAGIC pays in fiat(or stable coin (kyc), but
11:37:09 <plowsof[m]> its another option for people
11:42:03 <john_r365[m]> sgp_: Is MAGIC definitely KYC only for the person raising funds? 
11:42:03 <john_r365[m]> I thought so, but then a conversation at the weekend with kayabanerve suggested it might be possible non-KYC? 
11:42:03 <john_r365[m]> Or perhaps I misunderstood. 
11:43:38 <plowsof[m]> what if i made a CCS that said i want 100$  -> after ccs is funded / funds released , i sell the Monero, and now i have $100 + extra monero in my wallet -> everyone who donated can contact me to get a refund % 
11:45:27 <john_r365[m]> plowsof: yep, going forward with the CCS there will be more requests to get paid out a % prior to milestones being completed. 
11:45:28 <john_r365[m]> And in some cases, if this isn’t requested, it may want to be encouraged by the community. 
11:45:28 <john_r365[m]> I guess the applicability will need to be handled on a case by case basis. 
11:48:18 <plowsof[m]> one example to be weary of is xmrsale, who had alot of amazing buzzwords in their proposal, an easy self hosted monero shop! of course the community donated quickly - then he was awol for 7 months - returned and said some milestone was not possible (it was) and kinda done an easier version.. so a 'case by case basis' indeed
13:19:58 <sgp_> > <@john_r365:monero.social> sgp_: Is MAGIC definitely KYC only for the person raising funds?... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/70d3f699d4b2e26c5b356d967c9f5dab9ef680f1)
13:20:58 <john_r365[m]> Thanks for clarifying sgp_ 
13:27:35 <r4v3r23[m]> comply first amirite
13:32:52 <eudaimon36[m]> Could someone comment on the weaknesses/issues with Paynym as a privacy solution for BTC? I.e., why is Monero still better in light of that option?
13:34:45 <r4v3r23[m]> eudaimon36[m]: inputs can still be connected/merged after receiving
13:34:55 <r4v3r23[m]> so user still has to manage their UTXOs very carefully
13:35:15 <r4v3r23[m]> example: you post a paynym online and get 10 donations
13:35:49 <r4v3r23[m]> you use 6 on those inputs for a tx
13:36:45 <r4v3r23[m]> any one of those 6 senders can see the other 5 inputs once merged
13:37:23 <eudaimon36[m]> doesn't seem to be much of a solution at all then!
13:38:35 <eudaimon36[m]> a friend was making the case that this tech would ultimately make BTC as private as Monero with very little effort (though admittedly by him more than Monero)
13:39:12 <eudaimon36[m]> one has to be mixing and merging and whirlpooling all day long for any privacy
13:39:59 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Your friend likes to make excuses for using wrenches as hammers 
13:40:48 <ofrnxmr[m]1> "More effort than monero"
13:40:48 <ofrnxmr[m]1> More effort than cash, efiat....
13:41:03 <r4v3r23[m]> eudaimon36[m]: youre friend doesnt know what hes talking about
13:41:15 <merope> eudaimon36[m]: Except that blockchain analysis companies have already shown that they can untangle all that mixing and merging, pretty easily
13:41:15 <r4v3r23[m]> s/youre/your/
13:41:39 <r4v3r23[m]> eudaimon36[m]: yes
13:42:05 <merope> Think of Monero's ring signatures as non-interactive, protocol-enforced Bitcoin coinjoins that work for arbitrary amounts, and have a fixed number of participants
13:42:18 <eudaimon36[m]> r4v3r23[m]: lol! that's what I was worried about
13:42:19 <merope> Except that Monero also hides senders and receivers and amounts for all transactions
13:42:29 <r4v3r23[m]> eudaimon36[m]: and even then its still not as private as monero
13:43:01 <merope> merope: In other words: if you actually wanted to make Bitcoin private, you'd have to implement all these features on top of it - and you would end up with Monero
13:43:18 <eudaimon36[m]> merope: Interesting! Didn't know that. I thought one could avoid prying eyes, so long as one made coin-joining a part-time job...
13:43:20 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Monero is just bitcoin done right.
13:43:28 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Digitial cash that actually works 
13:44:13 <r4v3r23[m]> eudaimon36[m]: uSe tHe ToOls
13:44:15 <r4v3r23[m]> or just pay with cash
13:44:17 <merope> eudaimon36[m]: Too bad that some exchanges will outright reject/seize any deposits if they see any coinjoins in all your transaction history
13:44:38 <eudaimon36[m]> merope: This is a great comment, and just what I suspected (but don't fully understand)!
13:44:46 <ofrnxmr[m]1> endor00: some mweb ltc is being rejected too
13:44:46 <r4v3r23[m]> merope: coinjoiners think they are so slick evading blacklists, when the real enemy are whitelists
13:45:13 <merope> Yeah, that didn't take long at all lol
13:45:35 <merope> Quite hilarious, in a very sad way
13:45:39 <eudaimon36[m]> merope: Seize?! WTF? How do they justify that?! 
13:45:49 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Another exchange will only accept zcash from T addresses (I guess they will freeze if you sent from a shielded pool)
13:46:15 <ofrnxmr[m]1> eudaimon36[m]: They dont have to. You literally TRIED and PAID to wash your money
13:46:32 <eudaimon36[m]> My Lord
13:46:35 <ofrnxmr[m]1> They dont have to justify*
13:46:53 <ofrnxmr[m]1> You walked in saying "im trying to hide money"
13:47:00 <merope> eudaimon36[m]: "We have reason to believe that you're trying to hide something, therefore you must be doing something illicit. Prove that you are not, or we will be forced to seize your money as potential evidence of criminal activity"
13:47:35 <eudaimon36[m]> Jesus!
13:47:35 <merope> Basically the rejection of the presumption of innocence, enforced outside of a legal court by private companies
13:47:40 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Sir, what reason do you have 
13:47:40 <ofrnxmr[m]1> "Sir, you spent no less than 18 hours on YouTube to try to learn how to use lightning + samourai"
13:47:58 <ofrnxmr[m]1> eudaimon36[m]: More like "holy shitcoins!"
13:47:58 <eudaimon36[m]> hahahaha
13:48:15 <eudaimon36[m]> You guys are a trip!
13:48:20 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Well, we use real money
13:48:26 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Honest money 
13:48:39 <eudaimon36[m]> have all of you swapped all your BTC for Monero?
13:48:55 <eudaimon36[m]> I still have some, though I now focus on Monero
13:49:00 <merope> Literally never touched BTC, Monero was my first ever coin
13:49:24 <eudaimon36[m]> once I understood the privacy issue (to the level I do) I  adjusted my focus
13:49:35 <eudaimon36[m]> merope: incredible!
13:49:57 <ofrnxmr[m]1> 0 btc here. I hold 0 of any coin that claims to be money and... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/3adb77aad06d844af45b04155d5ab221055d92c4)
13:50:38 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Bitcoin has a hard cap that makes fees 100% unfeasible with the fixed block size
13:50:44 <merope> Should include 5. Is not a memecoin (cough wownero cough)
13:50:50 <eudaimon36[m]> lol
13:50:58 <merope> (Also Monero is public, but not transparent)
13:51:01 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Yeah haha..
13:51:05 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Wownero > Litecoin though 
13:51:09 <merope> * not transparent (by default), * ))
13:51:20 <ofrnxmr[m]1> 🥲
13:51:46 <eudaimon36[m]> still so much to learn
13:52:43 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Haven charges ridiculous dev fees.
13:52:43 <ofrnxmr[m]1> They have xusd.
13:52:43 <ofrnxmr[m]1> They want to be the first private stablecoin and widely adopted. 
13:53:13 <ofrnxmr[m]1> This is insanity. Giving a private company that much power over usd.
13:53:13 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Aka dev fee on zcash or xhv = affinity scams
13:53:31 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Im not against dev fees. But I am when you claim to be money.
13:53:52 <eudaimon36[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> 0 btc here. I hold 0 of any coin that claims to be money and... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/174ad6886e05549f0631ec5b9ea38c9240fd8f55)
13:54:06 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Public addresses and amounts on the blockchain 
13:54:19 <ofrnxmr[m]1> You send me 1$, I read you back your balance
13:54:19 <eudaimon36[m]> Ah, the most obvious
13:54:27 <eudaimon36[m]> hadn't heard that term
13:54:31 <eudaimon36[m]> yes
13:55:18 <eudaimon36[m]> it took me a bit to see the virtue in tail emissions rather than hard cap 
13:55:30 <eudaimon36[m]> not immediately intuitively better
13:56:34 <merope> Unfortunately, hard caps have a strong appeal for the "collector" types who want to own things they perceive to be finite, and thus "destined to increase in price" due to "increasing demand"
13:57:13 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Which is baffling to me. Once the mining reward isnt worth it, the network will 'owe all security
13:57:27 <merope> (See also nft collectors)
13:57:40 <ofrnxmr[m]1> s/owe/lose/
13:57:53 <merope> ofrnxmr[m]1: Yup
13:57:57 <eudaimon36[m]> ofrnxmr[m]1: Yes, but this is less obvious. One has to think a bit more. The supply/demand issue is immediately sensible. 
13:58:15 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Transaction fees will NEVER cover the block reward. Simple math. Very very simple math
13:58:30 <eudaimon36[m]> ofrnxmr[m]1: Why is this necessarily so?
13:59:19 <eudaimon36[m]> (I'm comfortable admitting I can't do "very very simple math)
13:59:44 <eudaimon36[m]> It seems demand could drive it to where it needs to be once mining ends
14:00:46 <r4v3r23[m]> eudaimon36[m]: you will take a finite amount of shits in your life. does that make them valuable?
14:01:15 <merope> ofrnxmr[m]1: Or rather: they *can*, but the coin price would have to skyrocket to insane values, and the average tx fee would have to greatly increase too
14:01:55 <eudaimon36[m]> r4v3r23[m]: lol
14:02:01 <sech1> r4v3r23[m] every shit I take makes me less shitty, so it is valuable to me
14:02:08 <merope> Ironically, BCH's "unpopoular" decision to raise the blocksize limit is exactly what will save it from becoming unusable 30 years from now
14:02:39 <eudaimon36[m]> hahaha
14:04:11 <r4v3r23[m]> sech1: need to cover the polices 'every breathe you take" with these lyrics
14:04:21 <Rucknium[m]> merope: IMHO, the BTC exchange rate doesn't have to appreciate, necessarily. But yes the average tx fee in real purchasing power terms would need to skyrocket.
14:05:06 <merope> It does, if you want the $/second mining incentive to remain constant as the block reward goes down
14:05:27 * merope uploaded an image: (14KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/lJjODqScVONRBahyGlcDeqiW/fees_perc_reward.png >
14:05:31 * merope uploaded an image: (12KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/sqiowFRdRJKpzdxNZRhxpiAg/avg_tx_fee.png >
14:06:06 * merope uploaded an image: (14KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/qAaqjKGxCxrwerxGOYeQcTCW/btc_price.png >
14:06:32 <merope> And just for fun:
14:06:43 * merope uploaded an image: (17KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/qaGyaNRNchYhRxfyKSIWrfHn/btc_mcap.png >
14:06:44 * merope uploaded an image: (14KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/eYMOWmcrfHuSwunpnGzniEzb/price_1_sat.png >
14:07:20 <eudaimon36[m]> How the hell do you generate these graphs in seconds!? 
14:07:20 * merope feeling bad because I'm not done writing the bloody paper yet
14:07:23 <eudaimon36[m]> My lord!
14:07:34 <merope> Lol, been working on this for months
14:07:37 <ofrnxmr[m]1> He's fast
14:07:47 <eudaimon36[m]> Ah, right!
14:07:48 <eudaimon36[m]> You mentioned.
14:07:56 <Rucknium[m]> Oh. I thought you mean if BTC were relying on only fees. Yes, to avoid reliance on high tx fees, the real purchasing power of each coin would have to increase exponentially, in step with the exponential decay of the block reward.
14:08:06 <eudaimon36[m]> Though I am still impressed, for a moment you were G*D himself...
14:08:40 <eudaimon36[m]> How did Satoshi miss these facts? 
14:08:54 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Rucknium[m]: If btc were relying on only fees, per trasaction on full blocks is somwhere in the 60-100$/ tx range 
14:09:03 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Assuming full blocks, 24/7
14:09:10 <eudaimon36[m]> When I heard there would be an end to mining I immediately wondered how that could work.
14:09:12 <ofrnxmr[m]1> eudaimon36[m]: He didnt. 
14:09:44 <Rucknium[m]> Right. See https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48.msg329#msg329
14:09:45 <merope> > if BTC were relying on only fees
14:09:46 <merope> That's actually the extreme case, which is where I initially started from. Then I worked backwards, and noticed that for most of the emission epochs, the reward will still be too tiny compared to the fees - even assuming the lowest fee levels possible
14:09:46 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Whoever sits on the btc throne doesnt want btc to be money. They want it to he an investment / an asset
14:09:49 <Rucknium[m]> "In a few decades when the reward gets too small, the transaction fee will become the main compensation for nodes. I'm sure that in 20 years there will either be very large transaction volume or no volume." -- Satoshi
14:10:18 <Rucknium[m]> We have 8 years
14:10:23 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Satoshi 1MB blocks iirc were not something set in stone 
14:10:31 <merope> Rucknium[m]: Which was not wrong - until the 1MB block limit was introduced
14:10:36 <sech1> 1MB blocks weren't even in the original whitepaper
14:10:41 <sech1> the limit was added later
14:11:09 <r4v3r23[m]> "what happens if electricity prices 3x?"
14:11:09 <Rucknium[m]> And Satoshi planned to increase the block size limit
14:11:09 <r4v3r23[m]> "You could always generate your own electricity. "
14:11:11 <ofrnxmr[m]1> 1MB blocks mean a Max of ~3000tx/10mins
14:11:41 <sech1> I remember hearing about Bitcoin first in 2010
14:11:50 <merope> r4v3r23[m]: That makes the network even more vulnerable, because it reduces the maximum hashrate attainable by rational miners by a factor of 3
14:12:08 <r4v3r23[m]> merope: the answer to it is hilarious
14:12:15 <sech1> that limit of 7 transaction/second is what turned me away - I though it could never be the real "p2p cash"
14:13:43 <eudaimon36[m]> so interesting
14:16:06 <Rucknium[m]> For reference, here is Satoshi saying that the block limit should be increased over time:
14:16:06 <Rucknium[m]> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1347.msg15366#msg15366
14:17:26 <ooo123ooo1234567> it doesn't matter who is saying what, give all details about trade-offs and anyone else will make their own decision;
14:17:54 <eudaimon36[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: ?
14:20:23 <eudaimon36[m]> i.e., I'm not sure what you are saying there
14:21:47 <merope> eudaimon36 if you're responding to ooo123's messages - make sure you take his words with a heavy dose of salt. His conduct has been "less than stellar" in many other channels...
14:22:16 * merope goes back to writing...
14:22:20 <r4v3r23[m]> ooo123ooo1234567: 100%
14:22:36 <eudaimon36[m]> I don't know what his words mean
14:22:45 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Also, language barrier. So if not understood you may just have to read him a few times
14:22:56 <r4v3r23[m]> dont just listen to people, make your own decisions
14:23:36 <r4v3r23[m]> just cause some one fancies themselves a privacy guru doesnt mean you shoud just blindly follow their "recommendations"
14:23:46 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Dont "use monero" because we say so.
14:23:46 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Listen to all valid details and make your own mind up. 
14:23:56 <Rucknium[m]> eudaimon36 asked "How could Satoshi miss this flaw?" The answer is that he didn't miss it. I provided the reference.
14:24:06 <eudaimon36[m]> Don't have to tell me that. Socrates is my idol.
14:24:20 <Rucknium[m]> And then the Block Size Wars happened.
14:24:41 <ofrnxmr[m]1> eudaimon36[m]: Ooo typed that, didnt quote or reply or tag anyone 
14:24:55 <ofrnxmr[m]1> We just transalated for you
14:25:03 <eudaimon36[m]> gotcha
14:28:44 <r4v3r23[m]> eudaimon36: you can try to be cool like mr all star mental gymnist here: https://nitter.pussthecat.org/Diverter_NoKYC/status/1462563858950807552?s=20
14:28:51 <r4v3r23[m]> or just use monero :)
14:29:28 <r4v3r23[m]> no LARPing needed
14:32:13 <eudaimon36[m]> LOL!
14:32:21 <eudaimon36[m]> hilarious
14:33:34 <ooo123ooo1234567> <merope> "eudaimon36 if you're responding..." <- comments from people that don't read code / can't answer to critical questions - take as is, comment that not all details were provide to make unbiased conclusion - take with grain of salt; facepalm
14:33:47 <ooo123ooo1234567> s/provide/provided/
14:41:02 <eudaimon36[m]> How about another question: is there already, or will there soon be something like the Lightening Network for Monero?
14:41:45 <eudaimon36[m]> although 2 minutes is much better than 10, it still isn't swift enough for certain transactions
14:42:15 <merope> There have been a few papers published about payment channels on Monero
14:42:25 <merope> But no active implementation yet, afaik
14:43:00 <eudaimon36[m]> I see
14:43:03 <merope> And for small, quick transactions (like buying coffe in a shop), 0-confs are generally regarded as "safe enough"
14:43:23 <eudaimon36[m]> right
14:43:38 <ooo123ooo1234567> merope: wow, 0-confs are safe enough
14:45:18 <ooo123ooo1234567> though, sufficiently competent reply for someone who is working with scammer
14:45:24 <ooo123ooo1234567> * who is "working, * working" with
14:46:03 <eudaimon36[m]> what is scammer?
14:47:10 <ofrnxmr[m]1> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scammer
14:47:26 <ofrnxmr[m]1> - siri
14:47:39 <ofrnxmr[m]1> * From: siri
14:47:42 <eudaimon36[m]> Why is endor00 "working" with scammer?
14:47:59 <eudaimon36[m]> And why scare quotes?
14:48:46 <nioc> :)
14:48:58 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Stick around 
14:49:11 <ofrnxmr[m]1> No need to stir up dust, it will stir itself 
14:49:24 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Just have the popcorn ready 
15:20:09 <Indigenz[m]> <eudaimon36[m]> "although 2 minutes is much..." <- Might be a related solution
15:20:09 <Indigenz[m]> https://invidious.sethforprivacy.com/watch?v=4k9yWVURNkY
15:20:58 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Wen bug fixes 🤓
15:21:16 <Indigenz[m]> More of an offramp to fiat afaik
15:22:00 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Yeah, but the wallet is broken lol. I need bug fixes 😕 or properly tested releases  :(
15:22:27 <eudaimon36[m]> > <@indigenz:matrix.org> Might be a related solution
15:22:27 <eudaimon36[m]> > https://invidious.sethforprivacy.com/watch?v=4k9yWVURNkY
15:22:27 <eudaimon36[m]> I have now like 6 wallets, and you suggest yet another new one. Drowning in wallets
15:22:46 <ofrnxmr[m]1> You have at least 3 too many if mobile only 
15:22:50 <eudaimon36[m]> Hopefully at some point I will figure out which few are the best and dump some of these :)
15:23:15 <eudaimon36[m]> yea, I know, but I keep learning about better wallets
15:23:45 <Indigenz[m]> eudaimon36[m]: I'm a noob I don't even have one ha
15:23:45 <merope> Desktop: offical cli/gui or Feather
15:23:46 <merope> Android: monerujo
15:23:46 <merope> iOS: Cake
15:24:18 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Cake wallet, monerujo, shruum
15:24:20 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Mymonero for android is broken right now and edge is centralized 
15:24:21 <merope> Everything else is pretty much pointless
15:24:54 <eudaimon36[m]> I haven't dumped all my BTC yet, though, so we have that 
15:25:16 <merope> Right, there's MyMonero if you want to self-host the backend - because why on earth would you use a centralized service
15:25:41 <ofrnxmr[m]1> merope: This. It works with mymonero, probably. Never tried.
15:25:41 <ofrnxmr[m]1> But it wasnt working with lws and was leaking my view key.
15:26:00 <ofrnxmr[m]1> * This. It works with mymonero backend, probably. Never tried.
15:26:00 <ofrnxmr[m]1> But it wasnt working with lws and was leaking my view key.
15:26:15 <merope> Yeah, seen that bug. Not ideal...
15:29:19 <ofrnxmr[m]1> If you use monerujo, make SURE you backup the seed.
15:29:19 <ofrnxmr[m]1> "Backup" option uses a different password than the wallet password 
15:29:26 <endogenic> it used to make sense when there was like one person with access to the mymonero server
15:29:35 <endogenic> now who knows who has access to it
15:29:47 <endogenic> i mean like back in 2017 times
15:29:59 <eudaimon36[m]> I use the official Monero GUI with the full node activated
15:30:11 <eudaimon36[m]> that is what I mine to 
15:30:27 <ofrnxmr[m]1> eudaimon36[m]: Using p2pool, correct?
15:30:52 <eudaimon36[m]> Not yet; too difficult still for me.
15:31:38 <ofrnxmr[m]1> P2pool comes built into the latest GUI release 
15:37:10 <eudaimon36[m]> that is my target, but right now I am xmrpool and supportxmr
15:37:28 <eudaimon36[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]1> "P2pool comes built into the..." <- hmm
15:38:15 <eudaimon36[m]> I set up xmrpool on my main rig running Linux
15:38:46 <eudaimon36[m]> I had Hive OS working for about a week, but then somehow screwed that up and couldn't reconfigure
15:42:16 <eudaimon36[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]1> "P2pool comes built into the..." <- I see that now looking in the GUI on my desktop. Since I have the rig set to dual boot, I could use the Windows GUI with P2Pool after downloading the wallet there too. You think this is better than XMRpool? 
15:47:56 <ofrnxmr[m]1> P2pool should be better than xmrpool (no fees, immediate payout)
15:47:56 <ofrnxmr[m]1> The setup confuses me though
15:47:56 <ofrnxmr[m]1> What would you like to do? Where is your node now? Linux or windows,  rig or desktop
15:51:20 <eudaimon36[m]> my wallet/node is on my Windows only desktop. My rig has both Linux and Windows 10, from which I am currently using xmrig pointed to xmrpool.
15:52:10 <eudaimon36[m]> (very proud of my noob success setting up the dual boot, fyi :)
15:57:42 <cryptogrampy[m]> https://twitter.com/notgrubles/status/1538938895152336903
15:57:42 <cryptogrampy[m]> fresh grumbles
15:58:28 <ofrnxmr[m]1> <eudaimon36[m]> "my wallet/node is on my Windows..." <- Do you use the windows box to mine xmr? 
16:00:57 <eudaimon36[m]> no, I use Linux
16:01:00 <ofrnxmr[m]1> cryptogrampy[m]: Ive been off twitter for a while.. they want doxxing
16:01:00 <ofrnxmr[m]1> But wow. Its hard to understand how people can be so braindead 
16:01:18 <eudaimon36[m]> I put Windows on it to use Ryzen Master and other such programs for tuning 
16:01:38 <eudaimon36[m]> so I go back and forth (test on one, run on other)
16:02:59 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Ok, so you'll need p2pool startup flag --stratum=0.0.0.0:3333... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/07d58a25724be58bbaad3ba30cc727512b966f17)
16:03:43 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Then on Linux, point xmrig pool section at the lan ip of your windows machine
16:03:43 <ofrnxmr[m]1> 192.168.x.x:3333 
16:04:30 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Xmrig doesnt need your wallet address, p2pool should use your base wallet address in gui
16:05:04 <ofrnxmr[m]1> ALSO. Might want to create a new wallet to mine to, as the address is public on the p2pool website
16:27:39 <cryptogrampy[m]> https://twitter.com/BIS_org/status/1539202222772338689?s=20 Rucknium sgp_ 
16:28:53 <cryptogrampy[m]> looks like a fun read :) 
16:39:30 <Rucknium[m]> >Not least, the system must protect privacy as a fundamental right, and provide user control over financial data. The integrity of the system must be protected, by guarding against illicit activity such as money laundering, financing of terrorism and fraud.
16:45:27 <Rucknium[m]> Recent U.S. Federal Reserve papers of CBDC are taking a similar rhetorical approach: Protect privacy, but prevent illicit activity.
16:53:19 <r4v3r23[m]> will be more private than bitcoin
17:13:10 <nioc> .lenny 
18:14:54 <ofrnxmr[m]1> Easily