11:55:23 <evalda[m]> Yo! How you kind people use monero?
11:55:23 <evalda[m]> I've been syncing monerod for a few days now and it's at 49%... It's in Whonix over Tor... Very slow... I can wait for it to finish but my main concern is it will struggle to keep at to date... Sometimes it can't sync for hours and hours... So you can't just do a transaction any time you want...
11:55:23 <evalda[m]> Is it okay to sync monerod over clearnet?? And when you want to transact is it still OK that node is connected to the clearnet??
11:55:23 <evalda[m]> Or what is a sane way to do monero anyways???
12:01:46 <evalda[m]> oceanus: Thanks! Not a bro 💃 tho... And when you want to send a payment is it still okay that node is connected over clearnet?? It won't compromise anonymity, won't it?
12:09:02 <zoom0ut> another day another person seemingly talking to themselves  
12:09:10 <zoom0ut> I seem to be missing posts by some people in this channel   
12:09:13 <zoom0ut> I have nobody ignored 
12:21:04 <selsta> evalda[m]: you can sync over clearnet and send transactions over tor
12:21:09 <selsta> zoom0ut: I also don't see them
12:22:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> selsta: The person is using a bridge to telegram or discord
12:22:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> Joshpigdog guy I presume evalda: 
12:24:32 <bridgerton[m]> <sech1> I can see the message in discord
12:24:37 <sech1> and not in IRC
12:26:23 <Rucknium[m]> My guess is a ban of the user from the Libera IRC server for some reason
12:28:32 <bridgerton[m]> <kimapr> the discord <-> irc(/matrix?) bridge strips away discord replies
12:29:04 <bridgerton[m]> <kimapr> any reply is left as a context-free message
12:31:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> Rucknium[m]: Msgs were delayed on matrix 
12:31:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> Im assuming a bridge problem 
12:31:43 <evalda[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> The person is using a bridge to telegram or discord
12:31:44 <evalda[m]> > Joshpigdog guy I presume evalda: 
12:31:44 <evalda[m]> Sorry, what?
12:32:23 * ofrnxmr[m] uploaded an image: (201KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/monero.social/MHUmvPSpQpcLEBCmeBDfodTC/Imagepipe_334.jpg >
12:32:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> Are these the msgs youre talking about? 
12:32:54 <evalda[m]> <selsta> "evalda: you can sync over..." <- Thanks! Does it mean switch the node to Tor connection just before making a transaction?? Or how to do that?
12:33:43 <selsta> --tx-proxy 127.0.0.1:9050,disable_noise
12:34:00 <bridgerton[m]> <kimapr> the messages look like this on discord
12:34:00 <bridgerton[m]> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/621366094531133461/1005453685293330502/unknown.png
12:35:00 <selsta> if your Tor is running on port 9050 this would send transactions over Tor and sync over clearnet
12:35:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> <bridgerton[m]> "<kimapr> any reply is left as..." <- ^^ 
12:35:44 <evalda[m]> selsta: Thanks!
12:36:10 <evalda[m]> selsta: It works in Whonix too?
12:36:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> selsta: wouldnt whonix auto tor everything though? (Im not knowledgeable on whonix)
12:36:43 <selsta> if whonix routes everything through Tor then it won't work
12:36:46 <evalda[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: That's what I thought too...
12:37:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> If so, youre probably bottlenecked by whonix or, more likely, your hard drive if your not using an ssd
12:38:46 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Sorry I didn’t realize that replies on Discord don’t also show the message I’m replying to in IRC
12:39:00 <evalda[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Its on Qubes which could add some performance overhead too I suppose... But Tor is the main problem for performance me thinks...
12:39:03 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I was happy Justin clarified regarding Cake Wallet and Cake pay
12:39:19 <aremor[m]> Yeah everything with a 2 whonix vm setup will go through tor
12:39:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> bridgerton[m]: Josh, switch to matrix 🥲
12:39:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> Bridgerton is ugly 
12:40:02 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I do have a matrix set up it’s just not as convenient.
12:40:03 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I’m a mobile user
12:40:15 <evalda[m]> So what's the canonical way to run monero privately??
12:40:42 <selsta> messages from discord to show up
12:40:51 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Discord is omega easy to keep open and constantly monitoring here for updates. I don’t always have access to a laptop where I can use matrix/IRC
12:40:52 <evalda[m]> I assumed you need to run your own node ideally over Tor... No??
12:41:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> bridgerton[m]: I use matrix exclusive on mobile 
12:41:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> evalda[m]: Yes
12:41:31 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Evalda, that is probably the most private way to use Monero but also the slowest and most difficult (for a tech rookie such as me)
12:41:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or I2p
12:41:36 <selsta> evalda[m]: it depends on what you want to do
12:41:56 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> There’s a Matrix app for mobile?
12:42:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yes
12:42:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> Element 
12:42:34 <selsta> do you want to hide that you are running a node at all? do you want to unlink txid <-> ip? do you just care about blockchain privacy?
12:42:59 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> And I guess the benefit of using matrix on mobile is that you don’t have to deal with the scumbags behind discord. Slightly less attack surface from Agents of the State
12:43:11 <Kimapr> element is shit on mobile
12:43:11 <Kimapr> actually it's just shit in general, but it's the most complete one
12:43:37 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Problem is that I can’t see the discord channel for Monero if I delete discord and only use Element.
12:43:51 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> And every now and again a good discussion happens there.
12:44:45 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I understand Element/Matrix > Discord , but I wouldn’t be able to monitor the Monero discord room so I’ll probably just take a hit on my threat model and stay with Discord
12:45:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> #monero:monero.social Isnt the same channel?
12:45:14 <evalda[m]> selsta: At minimum, I need to preserve transactional privacy... Meaning nobody can figure out who I paid to and how much... Ideally, would be nice to hide the fact I am using monero from the ISP but that's less critical
12:46:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> If you only need tx privacy, you can use 
12:46:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> 1. Tx-proxy to tor
12:46:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> 2. Onion rpc 
12:46:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> 1 or 1+2
12:46:28 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> There is a Monero exclusive discord server I’m in. None of those messages are relayed to matrix if I understand correctly.
12:46:44 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> But by being in that discord I get to talk with you guys. The big brains 🙂
12:47:16 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> And trigger all of you because I ask lots of questions and am unsophisticated tech rube haha
12:47:49 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I updated to v18 btw
12:48:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> I was about to say.. you bring all the bad questions from #monero over here LOL.
12:48:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> We (well, I ) avoid #monero because of that 
12:49:08 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Is it correct that at some future stage when Seraphis upgrade happens, the “nuclear” option if a bug is found would be to move everyone back to the old chain prior to the fork?
12:49:40 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Yeah thank you guys for your patience and sorry. I’m a tech rube. Monero basically got me into the privacy / tech world.
12:49:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> Thats always the drill
12:50:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> The old chain can always be continued
12:50:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> But no, likely nobidy' is going to be cool with a bullshit chain rollback 
12:50:34 <evalda[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> If you only need tx privacy, you can use 
12:50:34 <evalda[m]> > 1. Tx-proxy to tor
12:50:34 <evalda[m]> > 2. Onion rpc 
12:50:34 <evalda[m]> Thank you!
12:50:41 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> And the downside of having to use the aforementioned nuclear option is that it would void all transactions that happened after the network upgrade, is this chain of reasoning correct?
12:50:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> This is monero, where we do things properly. 8 years 0 downtime. This is not solana.
12:50:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> These #monero questions are  😅
12:50:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> Seraphis will be released when its ready  
12:50:58 <selsta> joshhavepigdog your messages are relayed
12:51:21 <aremor[m]> <evalda[m]> "So what's the canonical way to..." <- Running your own node is always private because your node will forward transactions that do not belong to you.  Bonus if these sync actions are over SSL. The caveat being that a sophisticated attacker can see you have a monero node, but nothing more than that. 
12:51:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> aremor: 
12:51:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> You dont have to be sophisticated to see youre running a monero node 
12:52:07 <Kimapr> <ofrnxmr[m]> "#monero:monero.social Isnt the..." <- the discord server has a few discord-exclusive channels. the rest are all bridged to matrix/irc
12:52:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> Your isp and any other node on the network that makes a connection with you can know youre running a mode simply by watching some traffic 
12:52:31 <aremor[m]> <bridgerton[m]> "<joshhavepigdog> I do have a..." <- The discord client is better imo…. But that was before I knew of this delay plus bridgerton thing 
12:52:50 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I get that you guys take serious pre-cautions. It is my opinion that Bitcoin is effectively marching to its inevitable demise . Monero is the real “Bitcoin” in my opinion.
12:53:14 <aremor[m]> <bridgerton[m]> "<joshhavepigdog> Discord is..." <- You can use matrix on mobile with the element app though 
12:53:29 <zoom0ut> if you need transaction privacy.....use monero
12:53:33 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Yes, but then I wouldn’t get to see the Monero discord channel I’m in.
12:54:23 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I don’t see why Monero’s use case is solely advertised as transactional privacy. I think it can do most of what Bitcoin can do, but better.
12:55:39 <Kimapr> fungibility, cheap & fast transactions AND privacy
12:55:51 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Anyways, I understand many of the questions I ask are low likelihood scenarios, but I am curious how the dev team here would think about such nuclear situations. Chain rollback or continue on exploited chain? I suppose the tradeoffs would be weighed on the exact circumstances surrounding the hypothetical bug.
12:56:06 <zoom0ut> I was responding to the question of the user's use case which was transactional privacy 
12:56:26 <zoom0ut> if you need that then it is very simple 
12:57:13 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I’ll send an email I recently sent to someone here. I’m curious to hear your thoughts
12:57:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> bridgerton[m]: This question is wild. 
12:58:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> This. Is SPARTA. I mean.. MONERO
12:58:08 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Why?
12:58:13 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> It’s an honest genuine question
12:58:18 <Kimapr> chain rollback can only be a decision of the majority of miners
12:58:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> We dont pull plugs, roll back chains, or release broken untested bullshit 
12:58:39 <zoom0ut> miners control monero?  lololol
12:59:15 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Yes, I understand that. But what if for example the bug that was found in Monero’s past regarding CT was exploited? The one the devs caught and speedily/discretely patched.
12:59:57 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I’m not downplaying the security measures taken, but I’m of the opinion that it pays to be prepared for even the craziest scenarios.
13:00:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> Sure. Did we roll back the chain? This isnt xhv. ....
13:00:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> 8 years 0 seconds of downtime 
13:00:32 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> So what is your point/answer to my question?
13:00:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> And we are prepared 
13:00:49 <zoom0ut> 8 years 4 months
13:00:58 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Wouldn’t it be circumstantial to the bug in question? Whether rollback or not
13:01:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> Again, this is monero. Not some shit scamcoin who fakes it til they make it.
13:01:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> Again, checkpoints, seed nodes etc are implemented as failsafes 
13:01:40 <zoom0ut> to continue to be prepared please donate >> https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/selsta-6.html
13:01:40 <aremor[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "Your isp and any other node on..." <- Fair. That’s not everyone but under certain circumstances yes some others can tell 
13:01:44 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I understand Monero is not a scam project. Bitcoin is a scam project in my opinion. I’m a Monero maxi because right now Monero is top dog.
13:03:00 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Ofrnxmr, could you elaborate on the seed nodes and check points, this is the first time I’ve heard of this
13:03:16 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I don’t know what those are and how they help mitigate risk
13:04:25 <aremor[m]> <zoom0ut> "miners control monero?  lololol" <- 3 way partnership between devs, miners, and node runners 
13:05:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> "If encountered block hash does not match corresponding checkpoint, the local blockchain will be rolled back a few blocks, effectively blocking following what MoneroPulse operators consider invalid fork. The log entry will be produced: ERROR Local blockchain failed to pass a checkpoint, rolling back! Eventually, the alternative ("fixed") fork will get heavier and the node will follow it, leaving the "invalid" fork behind."
13:05:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> DNS checkpoints 
13:08:12 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Ah I think I understand.
13:08:51 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> So it not only can enable a rollback, but could be used to discontinue the hypothetical exploited chain
13:09:10 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> That is good, if I actually do understand it correctly
13:12:01 <aremor[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> "If encountered block hash does not match corresponding checkpoint, the local blockchain will be rolled back a few blocks, effectively blocking following what MoneroPulse operators consider invalid fork. The log entry will be produced: ERROR Local blockchain failed to pass a... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/36f05798cd7855cbde5e5e4c2e946576266bebf4)
13:12:39 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Yeah I’m talking about the nuclear option not a 5 block deep reorg haha
13:13:06 <aremor[m]> No respectable blockchain will do a rollback like that
13:13:46 <aremor[m]> In the scenario you posed, I think there would be a very fast update and if necessary hard fork to fix the bug
13:13:58 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> There’s three ways I could see it go in the nuclear scenario (1) Everyone runs for the exits and the chain dies (2) exploited Chain continues and some confidence is retained despite the exploit (3) Nuclear option rolling back the chain to a prior software version
13:14:02 <Rucknium[m]> aremor: What do you consider this?
13:14:02 <Rucknium[m]> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Value_overflow_incident
13:14:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> And.. monero would never roll back like some stupid shitxoib
13:15:37 <ofrnxmr[m]> Cmon folks. You're asking "what would you Mr node running ofrnxmr"
13:15:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> I dont use checkpoints is what I do
13:15:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> I follow the longest chain and if it breaks, it breaks.
13:15:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> If monero doesnt work, it doesnt work.
13:15:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> If the longest chain is broken for days, weeks, no, im not cool with a rollback 
13:15:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> (Like xhv) 
13:16:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> If monero wallets are getting cracked, no, I dont support a rollback 
13:16:45 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> So it seems that outcome (3) has close to a 0% chance of happening. Rollback would never happen in Monero
13:17:21 <aremor[m]> bridgerton[m]: You forgot just patch / hard fork. Which I think is most likely. Just like the earlier Monero example you provided 
13:17:28 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Basically either Monero would die or a patch was pushed in such a skillful manner that damage was limited and some confidence is retained
13:18:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> ^ I dont think anybody in monero or devs would be on board with centralized plug/rug pulls
13:18:21 <aremor[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: It’s effectively censorship.  It should never be exercised 
13:18:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> No matter what, if you do a deep reorg on a chain that most usage is ON CHAIN, you stand to screw over a lot of people - merchants, employees etc
13:18:41 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Gotcha so chain rollback would never happen really
13:18:53 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> That is helpful info
13:19:10 <aremor[m]> > <@rucknium:monero.social> aremor: What do you consider this?
13:19:10 <aremor[m]> > https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Value_overflow_incident
13:19:10 <aremor[m]> Very early days lol 
13:19:16 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Yeah this was my point earlier about but downside
13:19:26 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Big downside* to rollback
13:20:27 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> In reality the bug would probably be patched by the dev team but the confidence of users would determine the outcome of death or persistence of Monero
13:20:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> It could.. this is why we do 4 hard forks before mainnet goes live. 
13:20:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> Testnet 1 and 2, stagenet 1 and 2.
13:20:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> If there are issues found in the ~month before the hard fork, the fork is cancelled/delayed etc. 
13:22:13 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Thanks, I knew there was testing done, but you guys go through 4 layers of testing. That’s taking things seriously 🙂
13:22:48 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I’ll send an email I sent to another Monero community member here.
13:23:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> "stagenet forked to v15 without issues, v16 fork in 16h"
13:23:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> Selsta yesterday 
13:24:06 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> This was an email I sent to Seth for Privacy
13:24:14 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Hi Seth,... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/9b6b065380ba997056914e0b63d006f5889dc4fe)
13:24:59 <aremor[m]> All he was saying is that he doesn’t care
13:25:06 <aremor[m]> Seth doesn’t get into number-go-up discussions
13:25:30 <aremor[m]> His interest is usable money technology and privacy.
13:25:31 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I got that vibe as well. But you guys are all intelligent, so I wanted to hear your thoughts as well as Seth’s.
13:26:09 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I’m only thinking about number of Dollars in existence going up, hence my concern with Monero number go up in the long term.
13:26:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> aremor[m]: This
13:26:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> I would assume Seth didnt reply 😅
13:26:43 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> So it seems like he just doesn’t like discussing that aspect of it.
13:26:49 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Yeah he didn’t reply.
13:27:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monero is 5000+$ if were being realistic about inflation vs utility vs adoption vs real world usage
13:27:44 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I was more so curious if I would hear any strong counter arguments to reducing one’s counterparty risk and inflation risk with USD in a bank.
13:27:58 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Maybe
13:28:00 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I’m not that big of a moon boy haha
13:28:15 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I have a long time horizon like 5-10 years
13:28:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> You cant rely on binance to tell the trust about trading volume or prices. If you do, sure, xmr can be reported as 50$
13:28:38 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> If Monero is $500 in 2027 I will be satisfied
13:29:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> XMR goes to 1000 before 2023 is out. Who are we kidding
13:29:17 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I have diamond hands. I’m only exchanging Monero for another crypto if Monero gets flipped on the DNMs
13:29:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> Binance etc will have to delist when regulations come, because selling products you cent deliver on is illegal in a lot of places 
13:30:19 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Dang I thought I was going to get chided by you guys for talking about price but you think it will 6x in a year haha
13:30:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monero is honest.
13:30:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> Show me a privacy project who isnt scum
13:30:32 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I agree
13:30:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> Nothing will flip monero.
13:30:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> Dero does coin swaps and 1hr notixe emergency hard forks 
13:31:56 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Here is my take on crypto —> the average person who buys crypto is very unsophisticated and lazy. They will do what the media and talking heads tell them. The real sophisticated end user would be the DNM participants. Thus it makes sense to look at what DeSnake is doing not Michael Saylor lol
13:32:23 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I stand with AlphaBay😎
13:32:46 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Let the moon bois have Michael Saylor and Goldman Sachs lol
13:33:19 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> So if understand correctly ofrnxmr, you strongly doubt that Monero will be less than $160 per coin in 2027?
13:34:42 <aremor[m]> IMO, as long as exchanges are as untrustworthy as they currently are, I think delistings are good. When these exchanges sell paper coin, and trade against their retail traders, all they’re doing is robbing the community. I’d rather be delisted. The exchanges are needed for the coin’s success.
13:35:39 <aremor[m]> aremor[m]: And to that point, I don’t care about the exchange rate. That’s not the primary goal. 
13:37:13 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> It will be when the Fed does helicopter stimulus again
13:37:22 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> And money supply doubles
13:37:35 <Kimapr> aremor[m]: that's not really an option when you need to actually buy stuff because most people price stuff in dollars/fiat, not monero
13:37:56 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I’m just trying to shield from the banksters and Fed bois
13:38:03 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Dollar will be unit of account for a long time
13:38:23 <aremor[m]> Kimapr: The solution is that people start pricing in Monero.  The exchanges are not the solution. 
13:38:49 <aremor[m]> I’d argue that no exchange is the solution to that.  The circular economy is the solution to that
13:41:24 <Rucknium[m]> joshhavepigdog: Fiat or cryptocurrency are not the only two investment vehicles available. Don't back yourself into that dichotomy. If you are concerned about the risk of fiat inflation you can put some of your wealth in an investment vehicle that tends to be negatively correlated with inflation, such as commodities.
13:41:31 <aremor[m]> bridgerton[m]: You cannot shield from them under the current setup.  Look at what just played out.  Crypto “price” exploded because of helicopter money and then crashed after it. Partly due to exchange access that average citizens have. This exchange setup creates a tether from fiat to limited supply crypto that shouldn’t be there and is allowing fiat world to play games with crypto price. It’s a problem, plain and simple 
13:41:53 <Rucknium[m]> Granted, not everyone on the planet has the ability to invest in a full menu of investment vehicles.
13:43:15 <aremor[m]> <bridgerton[m]> "<joshhavepigdog> Dollar will..." <- It will be as long as people keep thinking like that.  
13:43:15 <aremor[m]> But Tim May (I believe it was him) wrote about parallel economies. You might want to read up on that.  That’s what this was built to do. Not the number go up bullshit 
13:47:10 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Great point Rucknium, what do you think about Gold?
13:49:46 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Dollar Cost Averaging May prevent buying tops. Using standard deviations based on volatility to forecast buying opportunities too.
13:50:23 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Also your problem with fiat system still pulling the strings is a result of people still believing in fiat and a system that abuses them.
13:51:20 <Rucknium[m]> We're getting off topic for this channel, but when I said "commodities" I was mostly talking about raw materials rather than gold. Copper, lumber, agricultural products, energy, etc.
13:51:47 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I have thought about it deeply. However the dollar is the most liquid asset, thus it’s network affect is ingrained. Imagine you are a business and you only accept Monero. Great, but your expenses are denominated in dollars. Thus your prices will be denominated in dollars but paid in Monero
13:52:30 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Interesting alternatives Rucknium, you like those commodities more than Gold?
13:52:35 <Rucknium[m]> It's difficult to self-custody those things though 🤔
13:52:49 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Another nice thing about Gold😉
13:55:29 <aremor[m]> bridgerton[m]: That’s one issue but it’s also fundamental problems with the CEXs.  They’re fundamentally dishonest. And it’s legal. The details were mentioned above 
13:56:38 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Fair enough. I’m unconvinced regarding malpractices of all CEXs, but there seems to be funny stuff going on.
13:58:10 <aremor[m]> <bridgerton[m]> "<joshhavepigdog> I have thought..." <- Not 100% accurate. You can use whatever unit of account you want. The question arises, given exchange rate fluctuations, can you guarantee that you’ll remain profitable.
14:00:26 <aremor[m]> If profit margins are high enough, I’d switch to a crypto and if needed prices could be adjusted as well
14:02:56 <aremor[m]> <bridgerton[m]> "<joshhavepigdog> Fair enough. I..." <- Watch the earnings report of any CEX. If there’s revenue from other exchanges or hedge funds such as Citadel, you know exactly what that’s about. And any exchange that is not providing a verifiable way of checking their coin reserves, same thing.  
14:14:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> Pretty sure 0 exchanges offer audits on their xmr supply 
14:14:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> So to say that any ARE honest is wishful thinking @josh
14:26:36 <zoom0ut> what coins do they offer audits for?
14:28:16 <aremor[m]> Look at it this way, they have 0 reason not to sell paper monero. If they think they can time the market better, it’s a potential money making opportunity to buy at the bottom and sell at the top. There’s multiple down sides.  They allow shorts, that if you don’t add up all the units, looks like price is going down when it’s just paper coin games. And when they time withdrawals and deposits wrong, they end up having to
14:28:16 <aremor[m]> disable them so that they can catch up.  There’s no law requiring them to keep it 1 to 1.
14:28:46 <aremor[m]> zoom0ut: Kraken has a verification system for bitcoin 
14:42:08 <zoom0ut> one coin on one exchange, so we are not special 
14:43:18 <zoom0ut> kraken is probably the best exchange 
14:44:39 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I see. I agree with everything you have said here.
14:44:57 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I said I was unconvinced either way
15:03:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> <zoom0ut> "kraken is probably the best..." <- I believe kraken does more than btc and some others do bitcoin as well. Kraken is public and sends emails about recent audits etc.
15:03:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> They mention xmr audits but never do them  
15:04:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> "At this time we do not offer audits on xmr but we hope to in thebfuture" type of talk
15:04:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> Who started the video chat and why?
15:05:45 <zoom0ut> thx, kraken doesn't service me so I have no first hand experience
15:33:09 <zoom0ut> The current block height is 2,683,787. Fork height is 2,688,888. 5,101 blocks to go, happening in approximately 170.03 hours
15:35:39 <evalda[m]> zoom0ut: What's going to happen with syncing? It's not going to restart or smth?
15:36:06 <selsta> there won't be any interruptions for users as long as they use v0.18
15:36:16 <zoom0ut> you won't notice a thing
15:36:38 <zoom0ut> oh yes, as long as you update  :P
16:25:23 <plowsof> <ofrnxmr[m]> "Who started the video chat and..." <- Fat fingers sorry