00:34:53 <aremor[m]> <zounds[m]> "they'll redefine whatever..." <- This 
00:35:58 <aremor[m]> <xenu[m]> "I'm in agreement, but if they..." <- Ultimately Only the ones they decide to sanction 
00:46:35 <aremor[m]> <xmrscott[m]> "Monero is unlikely to be taken..." <- The government funds TOR. We can only guess why that is 
00:49:13 <aremor[m]> <xmrscott[m]> "And even then that doesn't..." <- lol it is LE and crimination.  It means, if you’re caught at that point, jail time. So if you refuse to stop you have to worry about your OPSEC 100% because it’s illegal at that point. 
00:52:19 <xmrscott[m]> And yet Tor is employed by various well trusted and established platforms like QubesOS or the recommended platform Bisq. If anything gov should then take down i2p given it competes with a supposedly gov ran Tor. Point stands
00:53:09 <jimmyt[m]> <aremor[m]> "The government funds TOR. We can..." <- Without tools like Tor, how would NSA/CIA etc cover their tracks?
00:54:44 <xenu[m]> <aremor[m]> "lol it is LE and crimination..." <- The thing is that these aspects of digital cash applay to any crypto. It would mean anybody using non kyc bitcoin with whirlpool and paynyms would be violating this, or zcash zk snarks, or litecoin mimblewimble, etc. Feds are going to go after all non kyc crypto if your doomsday scenario is correct. They wouldn't just go after monero. 
00:54:52 <xenu[m]> s/applay/apply/
00:55:04 <xenu[m]> Monero of course does it best, but that doesn't mean elements of privacy aren't found in other projects
00:57:09 <aremor[m]> xmrscott[m]: Yes they should.  The guides I read say place no trust in TOR.  Use VPN, VMs, and randomly generated MAC addresses, No persistent storage, the full 9 when **contemplating** needing full privacy on TOR.  
00:58:45 <aremor[m]> <jimmyt[m]> "Without tools like Tor, how..." <- Protects against non sophisticated users yet not against the NSA itself…..
00:59:36 <aremor[m]> xenu[m]: I said this 
01:03:48 <aremor[m]> If Monero is criminalized it means it’ll only be useful for underground stuff. And we can forget all grandiose ideas of having public circular economies. That’s depressing to me but the one bright side is that the price would stop fluctuating so much due to exchanges
01:05:43 <xmrscott[m]> Depends on your threat model as to Tor vs VPN; VPNs 100% know your true IP
01:06:56 <xmrscott[m]> If you do journalism/whistleblowing, Tor is the recommended method in all guides I'm aware of
01:07:08 <aremor[m]> End of the day, it’s not a versus. It’s a both. Just depends how you combine them
01:10:48 <aremor[m]> Even the ISP to the VPN shouldn’t be yours.  And the MAC shouldn’t be the original either.  Even as just a journalist that can be a death sentence in many countries. Long story short TOR isn’t enough because you don’t know how infiltrated the entry and exit nodes are.
01:41:10 <selsta> https://electriccoin.co/blog/us-treasury-announcement-eccs-engagement-on-policy-for-economic-freedom/
01:41:21 <selsta> lol zcash is like pls don't sanction us
01:52:22 <chesterfield[m]> 🤣
01:52:48 <nioc> they want to give me cookies, how generous 
01:54:16 <nioc> Zcash is compliant and fully compatible with global AML/CFT standards, including all final FATF recommendations, the European Union’s Fifth Anti-Money Laundering Directive, and the United States’ Anti-Money Laundering regulations. It is approved by the New York State Department of Financial Services (NYDFS), a key requirement for listing on major exchanges, like Gemini and Coinbase.
01:56:37 <nioc> In 2020, ECC commissioned the RAND Corporation to conduct research into Zcash usage for illicit purposes. The research revealed no evidence of any substantive use of Zcash for money laundering, terrorism financing or trade in illicit goods and services.
01:56:50 <nioc> that's right, nobody uses it
02:02:46 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Sad, but true.
02:03:01 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> For Zcash that is
02:06:01 <jwinterm[m]> Lol selsta: jeezzzzzzz
02:43:57 <zach> hi
03:40:29 <cryptogrampy[m]> <zach> "hi" <- hi
06:16:19 <xmrscott[m]> .zooko
08:21:43 <r4v3r23[m]> > <@xmrscott:monero.social> Not just that, but the writer has previously lied about why Cake Wallet pulled their sponsorship of him, and he got called out publicly for it and they called him a crazy racist https://twitter.com/vikrantnyc/status/1403036355735789583
08:21:43 <r4v3r23[m]> > "If Cake Wallet pulled sponsorship, why should anyone fund him when there are better news alternatives" would be raised in the proposal and he'd like to keep it on the down low going by his deleting of his tweets
08:21:43 <r4v3r23[m]> clear victim complex
08:37:51 <ComplyLast> what was cake sponsoring r4v3r23[m]?
09:27:06 <r4v3r23[m]> plowsof: given the recent controversies around cake (cakepay privacy policy, monero.com, etc) and growing user frustration at their practices, i think we should have a meeting to discuss grievances and reassess cake's  place in the community
09:27:35 <r4v3r23[m]> there is only so much sponsoring they can do to hide issues under the rug
09:27:56 <jwinterm[m]> or you could just...use a different wallet
09:27:57 <jwinterm[m]> lol
09:28:12 <r4v3r23[m]> yeah no shit buddy
09:28:30 <jwinterm[m]> I ain't ur buddy, pal
09:28:36 <r4v3r23[m]> then fuck off
09:28:44 <jwinterm[m]> okidoki
09:29:45 <r4v3r23[m]> lets remove the freewallet warning too since users can "just use a different wallet"
09:31:03 <jwinterm> no one uses freewallet anymore anyway so warning is just a waste of space
09:31:06 <jwinterm> but I'm fucking off
09:34:31 <ComplyLast> <jwinterm[m]> or you could just...use a different wallet
09:34:31 <ComplyLast> xDD
10:09:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> Wookeywallet, is this recommended? 
10:12:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://github.com/WooKeyWallet/monero-wallet-android-app/issues/10
10:18:49 <plowsof> r4v3r23: moo made a a PR to remove cake wallet from getmonero which sums up the sentiment of the anti cakers. I think Core have enough to make a decision  on 'listing monero.com' .. theres also another option to change how wallets are listed on getmonero (ercicione made an issue of his suggestion) e.g make it clear which wallets call home.   A meeting to recap everything would be nice
10:30:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> The joke (coincidence?) with the monero.com pr.. during conversation it was noted that monero.com was listed as an official website by coingecko. 
10:30:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> Coingecko was notified > monero.com removed > then coingecko opened a pr on getmonero.org for priority listing of coingecko..
10:30:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> Why would be endorse coingecko when they, not 24hours prior, were directing users to the wrong website. 
10:30:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> Why would we*
10:30:50 * ofrnxmr[m] uploaded an image: (76KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/monero.social/HBjBrCKuRIbOUrmNpYEDVfso/Imagepipe_342.jpg >
10:37:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://monero.observer/moneromooo-monero-submits-pr-remove-cake-wallet-from-getmonero.org/
11:17:11 <nioc> how do we get this funded?  I made a reddit post a few days ago which resulted in about 1.5xmr being donated 
11:17:13 <nioc> https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/selsta-6.html
11:37:49 <DanIsnotthemanBr> I was confused a bit why cake wallet’s monero only wallet is call monero.com
11:42:08 <nioc> was just checking the monero-gui channel and after receiving help this is the comment a user left >>  <danielevans[m]> 
11:42:08 <nioc> thank you so much for your help, and your work on the monero gui, and your work for the monero community, you truly are a gem, the monero community is so lucky to have you around selsta seriously
11:48:11 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Why does everyone dislike Cake so much? Is it as private and secure as the GUI? Likely not. Is it easy as hell to use enabling complete noobs to get involved in Monero? Yes.
11:49:08 <jwinterm[m]> Some people live to kvetch
12:06:23 <gonbatfire[m]> Imagine if Cake becomes our version of Blockstream 🤣
12:07:23 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Still no v0.18 for cake :/
12:07:31 <r4v3r23[m]> <bridgerton[m]> "<joshhavepigdog> Why does..." <- its pure garbage
12:07:55 <r4v3r23[m]> cant believe monero users stand for this kind of app
12:07:56 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Cake better push v0.18 prior to the fork lol
12:08:08 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Why is cake so bad though?
12:08:17 <monerobull[m]> It's a decent mobile wallet
12:08:37 <monerobull[m]> And they support the ecosystem quite a bit
12:09:08 <gonbatfire[m]> They ping their servers the moment you open the app and apparently refuse to implement and opt-out option
12:09:29 <gonbatfire[m]> "Refuse" in the sense that the fix was done but not merged
12:09:39 <r4v3r23[m]> they bribe the community for support via sponsorships
12:09:52 <r4v3r23[m]> then slyly try to co-opt the monero brand
12:09:57 <r4v3r23[m]> all while gathering users data
12:11:25 <gonbatfire[m]> s/and/the/
12:11:28 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Could you further elaborate on what “pinging their servers” means?
12:11:48 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> They collect all user IPs or something? What is the scope of this tracking behavior?
12:13:14 <r4v3r23[m]> monero needs more wallets
12:13:26 <r4v3r23[m]> better wallets
12:13:43 <gonbatfire[m]> The app ping cake servers to get fiat exchange rates n' stuff
12:13:49 <gonbatfire[m]> Potentially harming users privacy
12:16:15 <gonbatfire[m]> Issue:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/98dc116b53e172832f067429ca6cba3a886b0c71)
12:17:06 <gonbatfire[m]> (Message by ofrnxmr)
12:18:43 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> What is the maximum information they can collect on an end user?
12:18:58 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Isn’t it just their IP address?
12:19:35 <gonbatfire[m]> I supposed that could give them the time and approximate location of each user that open the app each time
12:19:45 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Ah I see time and selected currency as well
12:20:04 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Location? How would they get that information?
12:20:47 <gonbatfire[m]> Can't you get that info by knowing the IP?
12:21:15 <gonbatfire[m]> I have no idea honestly, but you can read the github issue
12:21:57 <gonbatfire[m]> * the IP? (If user doesn't use a vpn)
12:22:06 <BusyBoredom[m]> IP can be traced right back to your name and address provided you ISP cooperates.
12:22:53 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I suppose
12:23:10 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> That’s inherently true of almost all internet usage though
12:23:33 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> To avoid that you have to avoid de-anonymizing yourself and exclusively use TOR / I2P
12:24:11 <BusyBoredom[m]> Monero has put a lot of effort into making it not true for monero. That's why we have dandilion++ built right into monero
12:25:20 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Let’s say the US puts the death penalty on Monero usage. How could one prevent the government from knowing that you are using it under this extremely risky circumstances? Would you exclusively transact over TOR? What about I2P? Or would you have balls bigger than Epcot and still transact over the clear net just to fuck with the government?
12:26:20 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> This is true. Still people have to realize the privacy implications of not running their own node and using their own rather than another’s remote node.
12:26:35 <BusyBoredom[m]> If using monero at all were a crime (regardless of what you use it for) then yeah dandilion++ won't save you and you'll have to connect your wallet to a TOR or I2P node to be safe. 
12:26:59 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Would you personally use TOR or I2P?
12:27:37 <BusyBoredom[m]> I already do :)
12:27:41 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I’ve heard recently that Dark Net Market infrastructure is gradually shifting toward I2P, due to the Feds constantly fucking with TOR’s entry and exit nodes
12:28:05 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> TOR seems to have an easier user experience imo
12:29:32 <BusyBoredom[m]> TOR is still fine, there's no actual case of deanonymization from the feds attempts yet. They're just throwing shit at the wall and hoping it sticks someday.
12:29:36 <BusyBoredom[m]> But yeah I2P seems to be growing
12:31:08 <gonbatfire[m]> So I2P is a full TOR replacement?
12:31:12 <gonbatfire[m]> Or ideally we should use both?
12:32:05 <BusyBoredom[m]> I2P is a full replacement. You can't connect to clearnet sites through it though, it's a walled garden in that regard. 
12:32:49 <BusyBoredom[m]> TOR lets you connect to clearnet through an exit node, but I2P doesn't have exit nodes so clearnet access has to be done through specialized bridges.
12:34:45 <gonbatfire[m]> Thanks for the info, i prefer it to be walled garden actually, I have a tendency to fuck up these kind of things 😅
12:36:02 <r4v3r23[m]> <BusyBoredom[m]> "If using monero at all were a..." <- whats the point of d++ then
12:37:35 <gonbatfire[m]> I'm guessing it protects the privacy of your transactions, while TOR/I2P would protect the privacy of you using Monero at all
12:38:01 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Ahhhh, so using TOR and EXCLUSIVELY connecting to onion services helps in lowering one’s attack surface as you don’t ever even need an exit node, since you never need to connect to a clear net site. Is this above reasoning / threat modeling correct?
12:40:07 <r4v3r23[m]> d++ is supposed to hide origi IP of your tx
12:40:15 <r4v3r23[m]> gonbatfire[m]: yeah
12:43:30 <BusyBoredom[m]> @joshhavepigdog yes, exclusively connecting to onion services massively reduces your attack surface. There's very little meaningful difference between TOR and I2P if you stick to hidden services only. 
12:44:33 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> That information is very useful for threat modeling. Thank you so much.
12:46:45 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> One potential UX issue with TOR and Monero is that sync times take ages if you are restoring a seed. Would it make sense to keep your wallet file on a seperate usb/hard drive, then connect it every now and again over TOR to sync? What files would one need to have on the hard drive to prevent from having to rescan from restore height every single time?
12:50:14 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Assuming one wanted to keep one’s wallet file located on an external usb or drive from the device that is connecting to TOR?
12:52:59 <BusyBoredom[m]> Sync times are improving a ton in the next hard fork, so hopefully that kind of workaround isn't necessary. 
12:54:04 <BusyBoredom[m]> Background syncing is also a WIP. 
12:54:59 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> In my exact case, given my current hardware set up and other limitations. My access to TOR would be on a different laptop each time. In this case, how could I keep my wallet “up to date” while keeping it on an a USB stick?
12:55:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Josh. The issue with the calling home to cake wallet servers is VERY noticable if you run your own node
12:55:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> If you run your own, your connections should look like this:
12:55:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> LOCAL 
12:56:49 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> What files do I need to have on the USB stick? Should I just store the entire Monero GUI there? What about the wallet.keys file? I just would like to know the total amount of files I need on the USB, so that my wallet will “save the last block scanned” that way when I next connect it doesn’t take as long? Sorry if my wording is jumbled here
12:56:55 <BusyBoredom[m]> I have a Tails USB with the monero GUI wallet installed on the persistent volume, so you could do that. 
12:56:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> Instead, im calling home to cake over the internet BEFORE I even attempt to contact my own node running on an internal network.
12:57:50 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> What if you can’t create a persistent volume? Have you ever had trouble updating your persistent volume where when you update TAILs it fucks up your persistent files?
12:58:03 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Yes this is pretty fucked up
12:58:28 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> But until we get a better version of a Monero mobile wallet this is the cost of easy UX for Monero mobile users.
12:58:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> My main issue is that: I opened the issue, instead of fixing they changed the privacy policy
12:58:44 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Haha
12:58:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> Then kept pushing more features and broken updates
12:58:47 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> That is fucked up
12:58:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> Like wtf is this corporate bs.
12:58:55 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I agree that’s pretty horrible
12:58:57 <BusyBoredom[m]> I've never had updating tails mess up my files. That would be pretty inconvenient I agree
12:59:49 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> How long have you been running this set up? I was averse to setting up a persistent volume because I’ve had so many issues with TAILS drives crashing WITHOUT even using the persistent volume feature.
13:00:02 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> So I’m risk averse in that regard.
13:00:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> My setup is quite possibly easier
13:00:55 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> What would the advantages of having a wallet on a TAILS persistent drive be versus having the wallet files stored on an isolated USB stick that never touches anything, but the GUI over TOR?
13:00:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> Simply run monerod-in-termux master beta, tor mode
13:01:01 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Tell me more
13:01:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> Then connect to the resulting node over onion or lan/wifi
13:01:17 <BusyBoredom[m]> If you can't create a persistent volume then just put the monero gui right on a normal USB I guess, your seed is encrypted anyway.
13:01:17 <BusyBoredom[m]> I've been using this setup for many years with bitcoin, and for ~6 months with monero. 
13:01:20 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I can’t understand this
13:01:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> Android node, everything is preconfigured for onion and lan access 
13:02:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> Biggest prerequisite is storage space >64gb, preferrable 128/256 or greater for pruned/full respectively 
13:02:39 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> What trade offs would there be between having the GUI and wallet files on a normal unencrypted USB (of course the wallet file is password protected upon connecting to the internet or opening on a laptop) versus having a TAILS persistent drive?
13:02:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> None 
13:03:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> Wallet files are encrypted, you can do the full tor setup without tails 
13:03:40 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Can you use a wallet on the same android device too? I’m constrained on the number of devices I have access too.
13:04:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> You can, but I dont. I rub my nodes on tablets, and an old android 7 phone
13:04:58 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Gotcha
13:05:59 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> When the day comes that severe Law Enforcement abuses begin to happen on Monero clear net users, I will get fully setup with some sort of persistent volume likely with TAILS
13:06:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monero can be fucked.
13:06:19 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> It will happen unfortunately soon unfortunately.
13:06:30 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> By this you mean?
13:06:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> Hyc and others were talking about encrypted p2p channels or anonymity networks allowing fullsync, this is necessary
13:07:25 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I thought I heard somewhere that Monero’s network couldn’t operate exclusively over TOR and relies slightly on clear net infrastructure, if this is true and government goes full 1984 crackdown things get spicy for us vs them really quick.
13:07:43 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Yes
13:07:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Currently service providers can block p2p monero traffic pretty easily iirc it was jeffro256:  that spoke on it
13:08:00 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> This should be a priority IMO because this battle is coming to our doorstep within the next 5 years
13:08:12 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> That’s fucked
13:08:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> Correct. Its currently not enable to allow incoming connections or to do any block syncing over hidden services
13:08:33 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Even if you run your node as a hidden service? Your ISP can still fuck with you?
13:08:48 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Oofff
13:08:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> Hidden service doesnt do blockchain sync
13:08:56 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> That is bad
13:08:57 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Really bad actually
13:09:07 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Way bigger bug then multisig lmao
13:09:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> Not bigger
13:09:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> And same devs working on both :( 
13:09:50 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> So basically there will always have to be some guy with the balls to say fuck you to the government and run a full node over the clear net, even if they put his neck on the chopping block for doing so?
13:09:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yep
13:10:07 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Alright.
13:10:09 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I’ll be that guy
13:10:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> Always.  And he must have a LOT of incoming connections
13:10:14 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Because the buck stops here
13:10:23 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I hate the fuckkng governemnt.
13:10:32 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> This is the hill I die on.
13:10:44 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I don’t want my kids to live in 1984
13:11:15 <BusyBoredom[m]> > What trade offs would there be between having the GUI and wallet files on a normal unencrypted USB (of course the wallet file is password protected upon connecting to the internet or opening on a laptop) versus having a TAILS persistent drive?
13:11:16 <BusyBoredom[m]> I just use the Tails USB because I want to protect my wallet from any potential malware on my computer while in use.
13:11:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> Which is why some of us run clearnet vps nodes.
13:11:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> Sooner or later we will move to or enable anonymity network block sync, just have to do it in a way that doesnt cause chain splits.
13:11:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> I2p for example doesnt communicate with clearnet.
13:11:46 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I really hope a solution comes up prior to the next hardfork. Even if we can just get monerod to fully run as a hidden service that will probably be enough at least for the next 5-10 years right?
13:12:16 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I2P seems a bit shit relative to TOR
13:12:31 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> The problem is that L E is getting better at attacking hidden services
13:12:35 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Fucking feds
13:12:51 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Good use of taxpayer dollars 🤡🤡🤡
13:12:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> There was a ccs for afganistan outreach.
13:13:08 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> What about it? Seems like a waste
13:13:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> One of my main reasons I couldnt supoort it, is monero can easily be banned on the internet there 
13:14:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> You get s bunch of women to work illegally and dox themselves because of no encryption in the p2p channels... scary
13:14:30 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> When you say “run a clear net vps node”, what exactly does this mean? I don’t want to deanonymixe you here, but is this a node you host at your geolocation or a node you host with a hosting service in Iceland or some shit? I would like to know because the day approaches where I will need to do something similar.
13:15:09 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> The Afghanistan proposal was a load of shit
13:15:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> Hosting service 
13:15:18 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> The guy would’ve just stolen the funds
13:15:19 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Dumbest shit I’ve seen in a while
13:15:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> Basically paying for some fast server to support clearnet connections since my home network isnt nearly as stable 
13:15:55 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> So I can come here and ask you guys what hosting service you use that tolerates risky behavior when the day comes that I need it right?
13:16:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> @Josh 🥲 be nice. Spirobel is easily offended
13:16:35 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Doesn’t this also protect you from law enforcement as well? Because they can come bust down your door and put a cap in your ass?
13:16:53 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> It doesn’t reveal your geolocation by using a hosting service in a different country right?
13:17:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> If you use a VPS that accepts monero and doesnt require id, of course 
13:18:18 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> This is going to sound a bit crazy, but are there any good resources to learn how vendors / admins avoid compromising their OPSEC when trying to host these sorts of things?
13:18:19 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> These exist right?
13:18:47 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> So the smartest thing to do OPSEC wise if one’s threat model is they will kill you if they find out you are running a Monero node is to use VPS that accepts Monero with no KYC?
13:18:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> Basically common sense.
13:18:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> Use monero + dont give id or connecting info (same email you use elsewhere), and connect to manage the server over tor 
13:19:12 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> It’s that simple?
13:20:55 <BusyBoredom[m]> And connect to the server over tor, that part is important.
13:21:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its not btc ln, so not 60 step process. But yeah, basically dont dox yourself during purchase or connecting and use a VPS that doesnt want to dox users (accepts xmr etc)
13:21:05 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> And you could provide me with a link to such a service that accepts Monero at a future date when gov finally stops showing us mercy and goes full tyrant mode?
13:21:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> > > <@ossaix:matrix.org> Any recommendations for a VPS service, that can be paid with XMR for hosting cloud node?... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/2366bf2c303319110b34bffc77f156e34038836f)
13:22:12 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> And you could give me a link to such service in the future? Right now I’m ok operating over the clear net because the gov is still enjoying its power and is less concerned with safeguarding their power.
13:22:28 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Perfect thank you for the list much appreciated
13:23:36 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> If you run a VPS can you enable other people to connect to said service as well? The same as you would if you running your own node on your own personal hardware? Like Seth for privacy’s node that he lets others connect to?
13:24:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> Seth and the like are most likely on a vps
13:26:33 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> So it really is best practice to use a VPS hosted elsewhere in the world. Just a solid move OPSEC wise for a variety of reasons. Right? Otherwise if there is some leak in geolocation it could lead attackers to your doorstep?
13:28:25 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> And things really get ugly for the Monero network if these hosting services are shutdown, either out of fear or by force from Law Enforcement right? Because then it leaves one with only the choice of running a node on their own hardware. Is this train of thought correct? Obviously the scenario described here is hypothetical and an extreme, but that could be a future situation we face? Or no?
13:28:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> Then were on our own and have to run with targets on our backs > like tor exit nodes 
13:30:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> The idea would be to stop traffic analysis from determining that these are monero blocks.
13:31:54 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Gotcha. But presently the “best OPSEC” way to use Monero is:
13:31:54 <bridgerton[m]> Anonymously Host a node on a VPS in different geographical location  +  Connect to said remote node that you run exclusively over TOR on secure Hardware and Operating system
13:31:54 <bridgerton[m]> Is the above equation roughly accurate?
13:34:55 <jwinterm[m]> Sounds like a pita
13:40:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yep. IMO we need that onion blockchain sync turned on so incoming connections arent bottleneck / reliant on clear nodes
13:41:48 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I’m in full agreement with you ofrnxmr
13:41:59 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> It’s just I’m an idiot who can’t program
13:42:02 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Haha
13:42:22 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Oh well. Time will tell if Monero or the Totalitarians will win
13:44:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yeah.. Hyc, sech, ooo, berman are all good guys. Not sure who is best for the job or if anyone wants to do it.. but p2p stuff is always an issue. Cent afford to break anything
13:45:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> Btw regarding cake wallet
13:45:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> "We are putting a banner RIGHT at the top today/tomorrow which will clearly direct people to the open source monero project website. "
13:45:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> From Vik
13:48:33 <nioc> will reality meet expectations?  ^^  :D
13:48:46 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> What does Vick’s comment mean?
13:48:56 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I know Monero devs are beasts
13:49:35 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> This project brings a tear to my eye. It’s beautiful and the principles it stand for are under attack.
13:50:40 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Why does Vik want to direct people to Monero GitHub lol
13:57:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> Vik = cake wallet = monero.com
13:58:33 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Yeah but what is the point of his comment
13:58:41 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> I don’t understand it
13:58:43 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Lol
13:59:32 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Also ofrnxmr, assuming you use a VPS hosted elsewhere as a Monero node, how much in USD does this cost you per year?
14:00:23 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> How much (approximately) is the yearly cost in USD for running a VPS with and anonymous service provider?
14:02:13 <jwinterm[m]> I'm not sure about context, but GitHub issues are generally used for now permanent forum for discussion
14:02:27 <jwinterm[m]> Re: why he directed people to github
14:03:59 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Perhaps something controversial that he wants to discuss over GitHub? I don’t care anyways. Cake is just a convenient solution not a secure one lol. Mobile devices are inherently insecure and should be treated as such.
14:04:59 <jwinterm[m]> *more permanent
14:23:59 <gonbatfire[m]> What would be the exact issue with Monero not being able to fully run inside I2P? Is it "just" that we would have two different chains?
14:24:04 <gonbatfire[m]> What if the longest chain stayed inside I2P?
14:24:16 <monerobull[m]> Cringe tbh
14:26:11 <gonbatfire[m]> gonbatfire[m]: Like 51% of hashrate were only inside I2P/TOR, and so the situation would get upside down (clearnet users would *need* to use I2P/TOR in order to transact in Monero)
14:26:54 <gonbatfire[m]> * Like 51% of hashrate were only inside I2P/TOR, and so the situation would get upside down (clearnet users would *need* to use I2P/TOR in order to transact in Monero trustlessly)
14:26:56 <monerobull[m]> Garbage usability 
14:27:45 <gonbatfire[m]> I'd rather it be slow than to live in 1984
14:27:46 <monerobull[m]> We don't need this at all unless the protocol itself gets banned
14:28:02 <monerobull[m]> Even then, there's probably better solutions
14:28:08 <gonbatfire[m]> Well..
14:28:14 <monerobull[m]> * Even then, there are probably better solutions
14:28:48 <gonbatfire[m]> Hopefully
14:31:34 <plowsof> Use feather for Tor.. or have tor browser running and set the proxy port in the GUI to 9050 (i think) and we have i2p-zero (gui) for noobs to use it with the monero gui, not too bad for usability 
14:33:02 <Lunar[m]11> Tor Browser is 9150
14:34:20 <Lunar[m]11> <monerobull[m]> "We don't need this at all unless..." <- Isn't the entire appeal of Monero hiding everything (sender, receiver, amount)? Why wouldn't you want to hide your IP too?
14:35:40 <jwinterm[m]> You can sync over clearnet where bandwidth is not severely limited like Tor or i2p and just broadcast txs over tor
14:36:00 <jwinterm[m]> This is I think perfectly acceptable for most folks that run nodes
14:36:15 <plowsof> Guide for noobs to use i2p with monero gui + i2p zero gui https://github.com/plowsof/userguide-drafts/blob/main/i2p/monero-gui-i2p-node.md
14:36:29 <jwinterm[m]> Until yesterday there was basically zero indication that the US Treasury department would sanction software
14:36:51 <jwinterm[m]> And it still seems extremely unlikely still imo
14:38:52 <nioc> O will refrain from old meme
14:38:55 <nioc> yw
14:43:03 <plowsof> I like me me's , is it about grapheneOS?
14:58:44 <nioc> so you are saying there's a chance?
14:58:58 <monerobull[m]> <Lunar[m]11> "Isn't the entire appeal of..." <- Because monero already does that
14:59:35 <monerobull[m]> I rather have my ISP see monero traffic than Tor 
15:00:49 <monerobull[m]> Again, Monero isn't illegal. No reason to hide the very fact that I'm running a node at all.
15:03:20 <nioc> Monero is for everyone™
15:09:40 <jwinterm[m]> *some exclusions may apply
15:12:32 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Ping me in 5 years when Monero is punishable by death or life in prison
15:13:34 <nioc> ok, will ping you in both places 
15:14:29 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> If one is connected to a remote onion node in the Monero GUI over TOR, doesn’t the block scanning happen over TOR and not over clearnet right?
15:15:38 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> If your traffic is connected to TOR and you are in GUI connected to an onion node?
15:23:44 <monerobull[m]> <bridgerton[m]> "<joshhavepigdog> Ping me in 5..." <- And while it isn't, why exactly should we force everyone into a shit user experience?
15:24:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> Wallet scanning over onion > yes, all over tor... post v0.18
16:14:02 <gonbatfire[m]> I'm not saying we should force anyone right now ofc, just asking if when the time comes (it will come) we would be able to avoid clearnet dependence entirely
16:14:59 <gonbatfire[m]> Also expect countries to shutdown the internet entirely, (already happens in some places in Africa when there is "elections") but not sure if we can do anything about that
16:15:09 <gonbatfire[m]> s/the/their/
16:15:17 <gonbatfire[m]> * Also expect some countries to shutdown their internet entirely, (already happens in some places in Africa when there is "elections") but not sure if we can do anything about that
16:15:46 <gonbatfire[m]> * Also expect some countries to shutdown their internet entirely, (already happens in some places in Africa whenever there is "elections") but not sure if we can do anything about that
16:17:40 <gonbatfire[m]> <monerobull[m]> "Again, Monero isn't illegal..." <- Also, retroactive laws are thing, maybe not in the US, but in Argentina there are.
16:18:53 <gonbatfire[m]> * Also, retroactive laws are thing, maybe not in the US, but in Argentina they are a thing
16:19:05 <gonbatfire[m]> * Also, retroactive laws are a thing, maybe not in the US, but in Argentina sadly they exist and are not uncommon
16:19:49 <nioc> IRC see all of your editing  :)
16:20:29 <gonbatfire[m]> Ah damn sorry!
16:21:31 <nioc> I hear rumors that it looks nice on matrix,  I have never been there
16:22:28 <gonbatfire[m]> Yeah I'm on Matrix, sorry about English isn't my first language so I edit a lot, I will try to keep that in mind from now on 
16:23:58 <nioc> your english is good
16:25:58 <nioc> feel free to edit to make thing clear, little things don't matter so much
16:26:30 <nioc> seems to me that there is a growing monero community in Argentina 
16:26:41 <sech1> I wonder why /s
16:29:46 <gonbatfire[m]> Today a friend of mine asked me how Monero hides stuff ;)
17:01:01 <Morpheus[m]> Hey guys, let me ask you something
17:02:20 <Morpheus[m]> If I have a Ledger and my seeds written on paper. Can I recover my wallet without a Ledger? I mean, is there any Monero software wallets that will recover my Monero?
17:02:54 <Morpheus[m]> Without the need for a Ledger
17:03:09 <selsta> yes, this is possible
17:03:30 <Morpheus[m]> Which wallet would work?
17:06:28 <selsta> there is a python tool by ledger that allows you to convert your ledger seed to a monero seed
17:06:34 <selsta> no specific wallet
17:07:41 <Morpheus[m]> Ok, thanks
17:54:55 <al800[m]1> Fork in 4.1 days, still no release of Monero update for ledger. I feel I might have to compile it myself... Again... (If it's still possible)
18:07:28 <ct[m]> don't forget to upgrade your node, so far only 40% are ready for the hardfork: have: https://community.rino.io/network/
18:07:39 <ct[m]> s/have://
18:17:41 <nioc> npt sure how accurate that is  for me it shows 197 ready and 1597 npt ready
18:17:48 <nioc> 0_o
18:19:29 <nioc> and mine is not shown
18:27:21 * ct[m] uploaded an image: (20KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/wlCuGXEIspkPzbPJojCqUrpl/screenshot.png >
18:27:31 <ct[m]> this is what I see
18:27:40 <ct[m]> I can not validate if it's correct data
19:07:49 <gingeropolous> never heard of it
19:07:57 <gingeropolous> oh whoops.
20:33:26 <jozsef[m]> <plowsof> "Guide for noobs to use i2p..." <- Thanks a lot for this guide! I followed exactly, and I am getting no connection:
20:33:26 <jozsef[m]> ```
20:33:26 <jozsef[m]> Error: Couldn't connect to daemon: 127.0.0.1:18081
20:33:26 <jozsef[m]> ```
20:33:54 <jozsef[m]> I have no idea why it is trying to use port 18081. Strange.
20:37:49 <jozsef[m]> Trying to use the default monerod port?
20:38:19 <Lunar[m]11> That's the default RPC port
21:02:39 <jozsef[m]> Nevermind: It refused to connect because it was conflicting with my public node that I'm running from docker on the same machine already. Once I configured a different p2p port, e.g.,  `--p2p-bind-port 11080`, it works fine over I2P.  Thanks, again plowsof, for an easy-to-follow guide.
21:06:14 <jozsef[m]> <ct[m]> "screenshot.png" <- How is the data collected? Do nodes have to sign up?
21:09:39 <ct[m]> not sure, its not my website. they did a reddit post 2 weeks ago and I was surprised that the share of upgraded nodes only increased from 7% to 40%
21:14:11 <plowsof> glad it helped jozef! im also thankful to have missed the "i followed it exactly and it doesnt work" comment, phew!
22:10:19 <al800[m]1> Most sites indexing monero nodes need the nodes to sing up indeed. No idea about the one from Rino
22:10:20 <al800[m]1> s/sing/sign/
22:10:29 <al800[m]1> s/to/be/, s/sing up indeed/registred/
22:10:51 <al800[m]1>  * All sites indexing monero nodes that I checked need the nodes be registred. No idea about the one from Rino
22:17:13 <Morpheus[m]> Does anyone have historical data for P2Pool? Like number of miners and hashrate over time?
22:17:47 <Morpheus[m]> I'm building these charts for Moneroj.net, and all I've got so far are data stored on Web Archive from p2pool website
22:18:17 <Morpheus[m]> In case anyone has these data, please get in touch
23:16:37 <bridgerton[m]> <joshhavepigdog> Does one need to update their node node prior to the hardfork too, or leave the node alone and just update the wallet software?
23:24:51 <nioc> what would the wallet be connecting to?
23:26:30 <selsta> you need to ideally update your node and wallet before the HF