02:03:33 <nigrow[m]> https://i.imgflip.com/6pynl9.jpg
04:59:27 <ct[m]> <lindoble> "https://i.imgflip.com/6pynl9.jpg" <- plowsof:  cleanup pls?
12:17:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> nikg83: 
12:17:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Wallets, exchanges etc had more than enough time to release their updates 
12:18:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> They simply chose to wait until the last minute 
12:18:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> Edit: to update their sw
12:19:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> Just about every exchange and wallet maker was contacted.
12:19:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> Cakes release not coming until the second last day is 100% on cake
12:20:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monerujo not coming until after HF, 100% monerujo's CHOICE
12:22:20 <sech1> meanwhile p2pool supported the fork since April 30th: https://github.com/SChernykh/p2pool/releases/tag/v2.0
12:22:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> Cake prioritized cakepay and didnt even start working on v0.18 until after cakepay was released
12:22:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monerujo has had the update pr's for weeks and simply didnt release 
12:23:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> I, personally, released monerujo updates weeks in advance 
12:26:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> Termux node also includes latest p2pool versions and has been hard fork ready for > a month 
12:26:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> Mining pools who gave a shit, even minexmr was able to update 
13:17:01 <monerobull[m]> I thought it was funny how people thought one of the programs that was ready for weeks wasn't because the latest changelogs didn't mention it anymore 
13:18:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> Which program?
13:18:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> Oh. P2pool latest changelogs.  Gotcha
14:47:19 <spacekitty420[m4> binance might have finally fixed their wallet, also seems like there is now less empty blocks and the average number of tx per block is slowly climbing back up as well
14:49:26 <bullskey[m]> is the monero wallet updated ?
14:49:26 <bullskey[m]> do I have to update my wallet ?
14:49:27 <spacekitty420[m4> yea
14:49:44 <bullskey[m]> just go on website and re download ?
14:49:46 <spacekitty420[m4> yup
14:49:50 <bullskey[m]> cool
14:53:44 <bullskey[m]> when will Kucoin re enable XMR withdrawals ?
14:53:59 <bullskey[m]> I use kucoin accs as bridges to hide funds
14:54:13 <spacekitty420[m4> no idea, 2 hours ago they were like "sowry, no ETA"
14:54:46 <bullskey[m]> btw
14:54:50 <bullskey[m]> the new monero app
14:54:54 <bullskey[m]> is way worse with antivirus 
14:55:26 <bullskey[m]> keep getting trojan something virus
14:55:27 <spacekitty420[m4> which app?
14:55:35 <bullskey[m]> like the wallet
14:55:36 <bullskey[m]> gui
14:55:41 <bullskey[m]> https://www.getmonero.org/downloads/#gui
14:56:45 <bullskey[m]> I also use NordVPN despite the hate on it lol, and it legit deleted the whole zip file immediately
14:56:59 <spacekitty420[m4> should be about the same as before, could try uploading the file to https://virustotal.com and it'll tell you the report from multiple antiviruses
14:57:31 <spacekitty420[m4> like, reason should be something like "miner" cause the wallet itself comes with its own integrated miner with which you can solo-mine with
14:57:40 <aremor[m]> bullskey[m]: Stop using CEXs
14:57:51 <bullskey[m]> spacekitty420[m4: can I remove the "miner" part
14:57:53 <bullskey[m]> when downloading
14:58:08 <spacekitty420[m4> prob not
14:58:10 <bullskey[m]> aremor[m]: dont tell me what to do lol
14:58:29 <bullskey[m]> spacekitty420[m4: oh well, ill just whitelist it on nordvpn then
14:59:26 <bullskey[m]> aremor: as long as you dont keep the funds on the CEX I dont see the issue
14:59:32 <plowsof> Isnt virus total useless if the hash of the file is new/has no reports? 
14:59:35 <aremor[m]> bullskey[m]: Well be having losing your money 
14:59:50 <aremor[m]> s/having/happy/
15:00:15 <spacekitty420[m4> plowsof: everything is useless, virus nowadays have polymophic signature or somethin somethin anyways, like changing their signature at each new download
15:00:15 <spacekitty420[m4> windows is the virus imo LOL
15:00:19 <bullskey[m]> aremor[m]: you realise using CEXs as a bridge is a good idea right 
15:00:28 <aremor[m]> bullskey[m]: No there’s an equal issue of using the exchange in the first place 
15:00:33 <bullskey[m]> use fake emails and make an acc, then use it as a middle man to go cross chain
15:00:41 <bullskey[m]> aremor[m]: what is the issue
15:00:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> LOL
15:01:07 <bullskey[m]> > <@spacekitty420:matrix.org> everything is useless, virus nowadays have polymophic signature or somethin somethin anyways, like changing their signature at each new download
15:01:08 <bullskey[m]> > windows is the virus imo LOL
15:01:08 <bullskey[m]> damn lol
15:01:14 <spacekitty420[m4> :3
15:01:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> the issue is, you give them control over your rings
15:01:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> And yes, windows is the virus
15:01:28 <bullskey[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: ? for a second 
15:01:30 <bullskey[m]> i dont mind 
15:01:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> Someone needs a red pill
15:01:43 <aremor[m]> bullskey[m]: Wrong 
15:01:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> No, not for a second 
15:02:09 <bullskey[m]> been doing it for over a year
15:02:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> If exchanges control outputs, they can decrease the anonymity of all rings 
15:02:10 <bullskey[m]> never had issue
15:02:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> Duh
15:02:24 <bullskey[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: you realise I can just use multiple wallets ? 
15:02:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> You realize you have no idea what youre talking about?
15:02:55 <aremor[m]> bullskey[m]: - KYC
15:02:55 <aremor[m]> - you are giving profit to an organization that actively works to destroy crypto.  You are literally part of the problem 
15:03:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> An exchange can pick and choose the ring members, and using monero as washer doesnt work 
15:04:12 <bullskey[m]> > <@aremor:matrix.org> - KYC
15:04:12 <bullskey[m]> > - you are giving profit to an organization that actively works to destroy crypto.  You are literally part of the problem
15:04:12 <bullskey[m]> kucoin is non kyc
15:04:30 <bullskey[m]> > <@aremor:matrix.org> - KYC
15:04:30 <bullskey[m]> > - you are giving profit to an organization that actively works to destroy crypto.  You are literally part of the problem
15:04:30 <bullskey[m]> your second point is clown worthy 
15:04:46 <bullskey[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: wdym
15:05:08 <bullskey[m]> if you can develop ?
15:05:18 <aremor[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: True, people don’t realize these securities are largely Wallet side and not network side
15:05:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> Which part? The ring members?
15:05:32 <bullskey[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: yeah
15:05:40 <bullskey[m]> if they choose ring members
15:05:49 <bullskey[m]> can i not just use a second or third address of XMR 
15:05:54 <bullskey[m]> to send it to from the first XMR address
15:05:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> Exchanges, instead of going "im going to use monerod decoybalgo" say "fuck yall. Everybody who withdraws from my exchange will have identical rings, and the real sender will be the only variable"
15:06:09 <bullskey[m]> basically, kucoin -> xmr #1 -> xmr #2 
15:06:21 <aremor[m]> bullskey[m]: You’re the clown supporting companies that are destroying cryptocurrency.  You’re the clown. 
15:06:29 <spacekitty420[m4> ofrnxmr[m]: you could just "churn" a few times afterward tho, right? like sending your whole wallet to another wallet and repeat that a few times
15:06:38 <bullskey[m]> spacekitty420[m4: yeah thats what I meant
15:06:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> Identical or a choice of rings that they hand select 
15:07:19 <bullskey[m]> aremor[m]: I am using their service because it is the easiest and cheapest path for me. It is not about supporting them. I am not going to make my life harder for something so insignificant 
15:07:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> And thats bad.
15:07:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> Why should we inflate the blockchain
15:07:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> Combining outputs is also bad 
15:08:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> Especially if you churn a bunch of outputs from different exchanges 
15:08:28 <aremor[m]> spacekitty420[m4: No.  They’re not using the network it was meant to be used.  They are degrading the network. They should be boycotted for attempting to destroy the network 
15:08:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> I use kucoin. Dont get me wrong😂😂.
15:08:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> But i'd never say its a good thing 
15:08:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its a necessary evil, at best 
15:09:39 <aremor[m]> bullskey[m]: It’s not about supporting them yet you’re still supporting….. who gives af what your intention was when you’re still proficient profits to them…
15:10:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> + you use windows...
15:10:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> obviously being spied in is fair game for convenience to you
15:10:26 <bullskey[m]> aremor[m]: there has got to be a way out of this no ?
15:10:30 <bullskey[m]> like a solution to that 
15:10:46 <aremor[m]> bullskey[m]: So the health of the network and currency as a whole is an insignificant to you.  We’ll go fuck yourself.  We’re here for the currency.  Not for our own selfishness 
15:11:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> Atomic swaps 
15:11:22 <bullskey[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: how high are fees on those 
15:11:53 <aremor[m]> s/proficient/providing/
15:11:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> Fee of the shit chain youre swapping to
15:12:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> ETH or btc only rn
15:12:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> And expect to get tornado ETH and stolen BTC jahahaha
15:12:39 <bullskey[m]> lol not an option then
15:12:55 <bullskey[m]> can i not use monerod decoybalgo after I am out of the CEX ?
15:13:39 <spacekitty420[m4> 👁️👄👁️ 🍿
15:13:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> bullskey[m]: Why not
15:14:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> Theres nothing wrong with no kyc btc or eth
15:14:26 <aremor[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: They’re only out for themselves. A parasite on the network 
15:14:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> Hodl forever or something 😂
15:14:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> Non fungible shit isnt monwy
15:14:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> I have no love for atomicnswaps because they dont do anything for monero
15:15:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> They just allow regretful shitcoiners to offload their useless proof of a broken system for usable monero 
15:16:05 <bullskey[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: currently Monero and ADA are the main 2 projects I know that wouldnt have an issue with that. However Monero on a higher level. 
15:16:05 <bullskey[m]> ahead 
15:16:09 <bullskey[m]> way ahead
15:16:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> Using other chains as designed, means monero swappers have to accept tornado cash sanctioned eth 
15:16:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> Otherwise we have to support censorship 
15:16:29 <bullskey[m]> I am wondering, what if github bans monero code and all
15:16:32 <bullskey[m]> whats next ?
15:16:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ada 🥲
15:16:45 <aremor[m]> Solutions:
15:16:45 <aremor[m]> Today: peer to peer and pay the real price
15:16:45 <aremor[m]> Tomorrow: Serai and Haveno should eventually be solutions 
15:16:45 <bullskey[m]> like they did to tornado
15:16:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> 🫣🙈
15:16:58 <bullskey[m]> bullskey[m]: ??
15:17:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> bullskey[m]: I have a clone if the repo, and im a nobody 
15:17:39 * spacekitty420[m4 uploaded an image: (47KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/LbePPxXaAVpWGHIEzhppgYNN/image.png >
15:17:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monero isnt run by some head developer 
15:17:46 <aremor[m]> bullskey[m]: Plan accordingly.  If you’re not about this life, kick rocks 
15:17:47 <bullskey[m]> shouldnt there be a github decentralized 
15:17:53 <bullskey[m]> how is there not one yet
15:18:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> Because they get cucked 
15:18:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> Like GitHub was bought by Microsoft. Monero tried to move to GitLab, but GitLab doesnt support SSH amonsgt other things
15:19:04 <bullskey[m]> aremor[m]: mate, you do realise this is a slow process. One does not just go into full privacy from 1 day to the other. Of course you can do it. But for most It is a slow process, one step at a time 
15:19:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> Self hosting is a pita for contributors, so while its up, we use GitHub, backhub and other solutions to mirror the code 
15:19:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> And have backups ready if Microsoft ever pulls the repo 
15:20:18 <bullskey[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: is github not just a database ?
15:20:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> bullskey[m]: Step 1... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/90cf7f81d4a9782823a39ea5397102fc6f1467af)
15:21:26 <aremor[m]> <bullskey[m]> "I am using their service because..." <- Mate, you’ve already stated you couldn’t care less about supporting the project. So I couldn’t care less about what your needs are. I will not assist you on continuing to be a parasite on the project 
15:21:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> bullskey[m]: No. "Git" isnt just a database
15:21:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> It included prs, comments etc 
15:21:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> History of commits etc 
15:22:05 <bullskey[m]> oh okay quite complex then 
15:22:25 <bullskey[m]> is there really no one building a decentralized version of github ? sounds vital
15:24:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/236
15:24:04 <spacekitty420[m4> there is yea but as mentioned earlier it all comes down to the features github having over the other options rn
15:24:20 <bullskey[m]> aremor[m]: you are making so many assumptions its crazy. I legit just said, I am using Kucoin because its easier for me. not that I dont care about monero project and what not lol. chill out lmao 
15:24:46 <bullskey[m]> spacekitty420[m4: oh so none is developped enough for us to actually use
15:25:35 <spacekitty420[m4> as posted the screenshot to quote fluffy earlier, there is a bunch of fallbacks already set in place so definitely not something to worry about
15:25:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/236#issuecomment-605023567
15:25:50 <bullskey[m]> spacekitty420[m4: right
15:25:53 <Rucknium[m]> bullskey: I don't mean to be harsh, but most people who are concerned about GitHub banning do not understand that git itself is a distributed protocol. The first line of the wikipedia page is:
15:26:07 <Rucknium[m]> >Git is free and open source software for distributed version control:
15:26:38 <Rucknium[m]> Using GitHub is a convenience and is not vital for Monero development
15:27:28 <aremor[m]> <bullskey[m]> "how high are fees on those..." <- Coin that helps destroys Monero will always be cheaper.  Yet you’re here looking for the cheapest option possible 
15:28:03 <bullskey[m]> Rucknium[m]: I am not really a dev nor do i understand how these things work. So of course I am asking about it. 
15:28:48 <Rucknium[m]> I hope you are satisfied. It is a non-issue.
15:29:01 <bullskey[m]> Rucknium[m]: yeah thanks for answering
15:29:21 <aremor[m]> <bullskey[m]> "I am using their service because..." <- Your last sentence here says that your own selfishness is more important than the project.  You’ve made your priorities clear. I don’t know why you expect help from a community you clearly state is secondary to your own Pennies you save on transactions. 
15:29:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> Can literally `git remote set-url origin git.samourai.com/monero-project/monero`
15:29:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> Can change where you push/pull your repo to/from with 1 line
15:29:57 <bullskey[m]> I did not get an answer so repost: can i not use monerod decoybalgo after I am out of the CEX ?
15:31:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> It depends what you donwith the money, whether you carry a balance, have multiple inputs with known spends 
15:32:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> Exodus wallet uses a custom decoy algo
15:32:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> So say you go from kucoin to exodus to fixed float.. if they wanted to track you, they could.
15:33:13 <spacekitty420[m4> but why would u even use exodus in the first place? is closed source, same way as windows is o.o
15:33:17 <bullskey[m]> aremor[m]: Unfortunately privacy is quite expensive. I cant really afford it. I am sure the same goes for a lot of people. Its just the way things are. If you have the money and willing to spend it on that then thats great. I personally cant afford it. Nothing against the community. Its not that deep. 
15:33:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> He runs windows and uses cex
15:33:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> I dont think exodus is out of his realm
15:33:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or mymonero / edge 
15:33:57 <bullskey[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: I am trying to move money into Binance from another acc
15:33:57 <bullskey[m]> I dont want binance to be able to view any of my history
15:33:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> Who used to use different decoy algos as well
15:34:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> 😂😂😂
15:34:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> No more help for you
15:34:31 <bullskey[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: unfortunate 
15:34:32 <endogenic> just make a new wallet
15:34:34 <endogenic> churn into it
15:34:38 <endogenic> or just
15:34:43 <endogenic> send it to binanxe
15:34:46 <endogenic> that's why monero is used
15:34:59 <selsta> the benefit of GitHub is free CI, we can compile each commit on a largw amount of different system environments 
15:35:04 <selsta> large
15:35:08 <spacekitty420[m4> "privacy is  too expensive" meanwhile linux is literally free and opensource :hyperthonk: 
15:35:10 <bullskey[m]> endogenic: thats what I wanted to do but the other guys are saying it does not work
15:35:10 <selsta> and we can run tests on every commit
15:35:18 <bullskey[m]> spacekitty420[m4: expensive not just in funds 
15:35:19 <bullskey[m]> time 
15:35:24 <endogenic> bullskey[m]: can you quote where they did?
15:35:53 <bullskey[m]> hold up ill reply to it
15:36:11 <endogenic> i dont use matrix for this room
15:36:20 <endogenic> so i wont see your reply thread
15:36:43 <endogenic> just copy it for me ?
15:37:09 <endogenic> anyway point is, it should work. whatever you're experiencing is likely on your side
15:37:20 <aremor[m]> spacekitty420[m4: This part….
15:38:16 <bullskey[m]> endogenic: cool so I can just -> XMR from kucoin -> Churn into multiple xmr wallets -> binance 
15:38:18 <bullskey[m]> correct ? 
15:38:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> I said something along the lines of... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/a2b46da8260a4ed0d62339a0fbcf7714c94327c9)
15:38:36 <endogenic> sure
15:38:38 <endogenic> or dont churn
15:38:47 <endogenic> that's the point of monero
15:38:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> What I did say was "using monero as a washer doesnt work"
15:39:04 <endogenic> why?
15:39:14 <endogenic> i'm gonna bounce in a sex
15:39:14 <bullskey[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> I said something along the lines of... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/05ff8dca1fc9cc0cceaad0f49b81016c34332411)
15:39:16 <endogenic> sex
15:39:18 <endogenic> sec
15:39:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> Why doesnt it work? endogenic: 
15:39:34 <endogenic> ok yeah fine
15:39:35 <aremor[m]> bounce for sex is fine also
15:39:44 <endogenic> but it's a statistical statement
15:39:48 <endogenic> not a certainty
15:39:50 <bullskey[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> I said something along the lines of... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/17f58e5a805ea8395ce0e473fadab0ff470a27d4)
15:39:57 <endogenic> that's why we want to remove ring sigs tho
15:40:05 <endogenic> but we chose the more mature and reliable option for you
15:40:23 <endogenic> give it time and eventually you will never have to worry about output poisoning
15:40:37 <endogenic> unless the monero project fails under the weight of its own data and tech debt
15:40:42 <endogenic> and social attack surfaces
15:40:43 <bullskey[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: yeah thats the question
15:40:49 <endogenic> tho the second one has already been exploited
15:40:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> But give exchanges more outputs and you do
15:40:57 <endogenic> aremor[m]: i wish
15:41:04 <endogenic> foreveralone moneroismygf
15:41:17 <endogenic> ttyl
15:41:43 <aremor[m]> endogenic: ring sigs IMO are just security through obscurity but that doesn’t say much about Monero as a whole though 
15:42:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> Rings arent just obscurity
15:42:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> But redundancy 
15:43:34 <bullskey[m]> nice chat in here 
15:43:35 <bullskey[m]> really like the community
15:43:45 <bullskey[m]> even aremor 
15:43:46 <bullskey[m]> have a nice one
15:43:51 <bullskey[m]> and thanks everyone for your help
15:44:00 <spacekitty420[m4> likewise, cheers
15:45:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> Dont be mad at my short reponses . I just havent had breakfast yet 😉
15:45:55 <bullskey[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: No worries you were helpful hahah
15:46:08 <bullskey[m]> I don’t know if the message was meant for me
16:04:41 <nioc> The need for churn is not well defined and to do it "correctly", well that defined at all
16:05:10 <nioc> *that is not defined at all 
16:07:37 <nioc> Yes there are some things not to do but as far as getting a "positive" result, shrug
16:12:57 <Rucknium[m]> Churning best practices research is something I want to work on after OSPEAD
16:16:18 <bullskey[m]> By the way when we say to churn, does it mean make new seedphrase and addresses, or just withing the same seed make multiple addresses and send it to em 
16:17:06 <selsta> not a new seed phrase
16:18:12 <nioc> Best way to churn is sending monero to a goo CCS proposal  :D
16:18:27 <nioc> *good
16:19:28 <spacekitty420[m4> all of it, literally all of the monero o.o
16:20:59 <spacekitty420[m4> like lochamesh
16:21:31 <spacekitty420[m4> best CCS to send all of the monero to
16:22:36 <bullskey[m]> <selsta> "not a new seed phrase" <- thanks 
16:23:05 <bullskey[m]> nioc: wouldnt they own it then ? how does that work 
16:23:09 <bullskey[m]> or was it a joke 
16:23:14 <bullskey[m]> idk how that works hahaha
16:26:16 <nioc> Yes a joke, but also a good way of supporting monero 
16:27:30 <nioc> And a tx is a churn, depending on how many outputs your wallet has
19:04:29 <bullskey[m]> <nioc> "Yes a joke, but also a good..." <- I actually love working in crypto communities, it helped me build morals and make better decisions in life overall 
19:19:43 <aremor[m]> I’m seeing syncing be far faster
19:20:44 <aremor[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "Churning best practices research..." <- How often are decoys? I don’t see it discussed much 
19:23:00 <Rucknium[m]> aremor: How often are decoys...? incomplete sentence?
19:23:31 <aremor[m]> <spacekitty420[m4> "like lochamesh" <- You can elaborate?
19:25:56 <spacekitty420[m4> aremor[m]: that was sarcasm :3
19:25:56 <spacekitty420[m4> project was fucking great, like would have loved to see it kept going but it ended up being abandoned unfortunately
19:25:56 <spacekitty420[m4> https://github.com/btcven/locha
19:25:56 <spacekitty420[m4> few years ago it did that ccs and took funding from the monero community, was one of those very few non-monero ccs and it just ended up in massive controversy
19:27:05 <aremor[m]> Rucknium[m]: My understanding is probably incorrect. Decoys Defined as == after you send a tx, there are transactions on the blockchain that look like there are additional txs happening, suggesting that the coin and moving to more and more places, when it isn’t. That’s what I’m referring to 
19:28:42 <aremor[m]> s/and/is/
19:29:50 <Rucknium[m]> Sort of. Once you make a tx, your outputs (i.e. the "coins") can be freely used by other users in the ring signature, even though they do not actually "own", i.e. have the private key for, those outputs
19:30:14 <aremor[m]> > <@spacekitty420:matrix.org> that was sarcasm :3... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/b222b10c8f43958bf12f7f27b3ab6d5d7aa46be9)
19:30:27 <spacekitty420[m4> sure was
19:30:41 <Rucknium[m]> When a transaction is made, decoys are currently selected according to a log-gamma probability distribution based on research in Moser et al. (2018). I am working on an improved decoy selection algorithm:
19:31:09 <Rucknium[m]> https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/Rucknium-OSPEAD-Fortifying-Monero-Against-Statistical-Attack.html
19:31:15 <aremor[m]> Rucknium[m]: Thanks. That helps. It doesn’t seem to come up much in discussion 
19:33:00 <Rucknium[m]> Further, Moser et al. (2018) claimed that the spend age distribution was stable over time, which is one reason why it hasn't been updated in Monero in years. However, even an analysis of transparent blockchains shows that the distribution is quite unstable even from week to week:
19:33:03 <Rucknium[m]> https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-research-lab/20220810
19:34:08 <aremor[m]> Rucknium[m]: To be clear, this selection happens in the wallet? This is important. I think part of the legal justification for attacking tornado cash is that the privacy was advanced by the protocol itself instead of software that was running in end user computers. Therefore they were able to prescribe blame to the service itself 
19:35:56 <Rucknium[m]> Right now the wallet can freely select decoys. However, they must select a specific number of decoys. Prior to the hard fork a few days ago, 10 decoys had to be selected. Now, 15 decoys have to be selected
19:36:55 <Rucknium[m]> Enforcement of a standard decoy selection algorithm at the protocol level is being considered:
19:36:55 <Rucknium[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues/87
19:37:39 <aremor[m]> s/protocol/dapp/
19:38:12 <Rucknium[m]> In very early versions of Monero, users could select basically any number of decoys that they wanted, including zero. This was a very bad idea since privacy could be harmed
19:38:59 <spacekitty420[m4> gotta have that tx uniformity thingy o.o
19:39:51 <spacekitty420[m4> amounts werent shielded either
19:40:22 <aremor[m]> > <@rucknium:monero.social> Enforcement of a standard decoy selection algorithm at the protocol level is being considered:
19:40:22 <aremor[m]> > https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues/87
19:40:22 <aremor[m]> Ok and now that I think about it even the ring signature members themselves are Wallet side….. this IMO protects monero developers…. But at the end of the day the government will find someone to blame and it might be end users…. Time will tell 
19:40:23 <spacekitty420[m4> now its like just the fees that is different for some tx
19:41:35 <spacekitty420[m4> aremor[m]: right, anyone can blame literally anything, like tbh, the whole NK thingy is just bullshit, they can even try to plant evidence and then claim it on you LOL
19:41:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> spacekitty420[m4: But fees are ~uniform, just on different tiers 
19:41:46 <aremor[m]> > <@rucknium:monero.social> Enforcement of a standard decoy selection algorithm at the protocol level is being considered:
19:41:46 <aremor[m]> > https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues/87
19:41:46 <aremor[m]> With wallets selecting custom algorithms, it’s best for privacy. Because any uniqueness can be pin pointed to a specific wallet and start identifying people 
19:41:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> Im from north korea
19:42:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> I live next door to my master Kim 
19:42:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> 🤷‍♂️. Boohoo.
19:43:30 <spacekitty420[m4> i mean, laugh it up by i remember someone actually from nk lurking in one of the servers that was tryna make a fork and getting devs to work for free 😹
19:44:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> Who's laughing
19:44:18 <spacekitty420[m4> :3
19:44:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> Spacekitty is from Venus 
19:44:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> I dont discriminate 
19:44:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> Dmartian is from Mars 🤷‍♂️
19:45:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> I just happen to be from NK
19:45:20 <Rucknium[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Unfortunately this is not entirely correct. Wallets are free to choose fees, and sometime they differ from wallet2, the "reference" implementation.
19:45:26 <spacekitty420[m4> alrighty then x)
19:45:35 <Rucknium[m]> For example, MyMonero had fingerprintable fees for quite some time:
19:45:35 <Rucknium[m]> https://github.com/mymonero/mymonero-core-cpp/pull/36
19:45:45 <Rucknium[m]> >Thus, this difference from wallet2 should be fingerprintable on chain
19:45:45 <aremor[m]> aremor[m]: Ultimately developers should be protected by free speech.  We already know MSFT doesn’t care… and probably lots of other companies would do the same, but that’s not a criminal issue. What they pick up the dev in NL for, we don’t know yet. I’m eager to see. 
19:46:33 <Rucknium[m]> koe's proposal to make fees more "discrete" for Seraphis at the consensus level could reduce the fingerprintability of fees.
19:47:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> Rucknium[m]: Right right.
19:47:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> The default fee also offered very similar fees to users ***
19:48:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> Algo*
19:48:45 <Rucknium[m]> IMHO, we still give wallet software too much freedom, which can create fingerprintable or nearly-fingerprintable transactions. There are various way in which improvements to the protocol have reduced wallet freedom, but we have not yet "sanded down" all the possible tx uniformity defects.
19:48:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> Cake, monerujo, gui, all use the default algo. I assume feather does as well, but like exodus and decoys, they likely use a metadataleaking fee as well
19:52:17 <glumanda[m]> Who here understands Monero fees in detail and would be willing to help me?
19:52:39 <spacekitty420[m4> https://dontasktoask.com
19:53:13 <Rucknium[m]> xmrack has been looking at fees in detail very recently.
20:06:00 <agus10[m]> hello monero community, I hope you're all doing alright. I wanted to ask if here I can get some XMR support. yesterday i synced my monero guy wallet and see my funds, but when trying to send some of them, i get a message saying : Error. Can't create transaction: unexpected error: cannot deserialize bulletproof rangesig.  can anyone advise what to do?  thanks in advance!
20:08:39 <Rucknium[m]> agus10: Looks related:
20:08:39 <Rucknium[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/monero-gui/issues/4004
20:15:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> Trezor? 
20:16:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> No trezor update afaia
20:16:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> xyproblem.info
20:17:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> Please dont leave out important info..
20:37:28 <agus10[m]> > <@rucknium:monero.social> agus10: Looks related:
20:37:28 <agus10[m]> > https://github.com/monero-project/monero-gui/issues/4004
20:37:28 <agus10[m]> Thanks Rucknium
20:41:14 <aremor[m]> <bullskey[m]> "when will Kucoin re enable XMR..." <- Just realized, this was already my assumption, but this is proof positive that KuCoin is selling paper monero.  They officially have a permanent spot on the shitlist. They’re officially a member of the worst CEXs available. 
20:41:42 <selsta> or maybe exchanges have wallet issues...
20:42:17 <aremor[m]> Are there any such issues that are known?
20:43:01 <selsta> exchanges have huge wallets, they will run into issues that most users won't
20:43:28 <selsta> figuring and fixing this can take time
20:43:40 <spacekitty420[m4> kraken did mentioned having known issues on their ends and were working on it
20:43:51 <selsta> it has happened often in the past that exchanges reached out to the team with wallet issues while reddit was making up conspiracy theories
20:44:46 <spacekitty420[m4> eh..... binance had deposits open while withdrawal closed for like a whole week, at this point that's not conspiracy theories but str8 faxx
20:45:20 <selsta> I mean you can believe what you want
20:46:43 <spacekitty420[m4> you said they contacted you or somethin but its still shady af to have let only deposit open, if one is working from the software the other should as well
20:47:29 <selsta> "if one is working from the software the other should as well" makes no sense
20:47:36 <spacekitty420[m4> and that was pre-fork
20:48:15 <spacekitty420[m4> they openly lied saying monero network might make you loose funds
20:48:33 <spacekitty420[m4> they would also have closed deposit if it was the case
20:48:43 <selsta> also exchanges keeping deposit open is good for people who want to exchange their xmr for fiat, arbitrarily closing it when only one is broken would not make sense
20:48:54 <spacekitty420[m4> and since pre-fork, could just have reverted back to whatever fucked up change they did
20:49:07 <selsta> again, believe what you want
20:49:17 <selsta> all exchanges are in on one big conspiracy theory
20:49:18 <selsta> lol
20:49:28 <spacekitty420[m4> well no
20:49:44 <spacekitty420[m4> i literally just said kraken said the issue was on their end and were working on it today
20:49:54 <spacekitty420[m4> as opposed to binance that lied their ass off for a whole week
20:50:01 <spacekitty420[m4> so no, not all exchanges
20:50:03 <selsta> let's say an exchange has issues with transactions staying stuck in the mempool, which has happened often in the past
20:50:12 <selsta> this would explain why deposit works and withdrawals won't
20:50:29 <selsta> you can't arbitrarily say if deposit work withdrawals also have to work
20:50:41 <spacekitty420[m4> and they could just flush_tx or whatever the command is
20:51:11 <spacekitty420[m4> there was no issue on the network
20:51:13 <selsta> yes, but many exchanges have no idea how to work with monero
20:51:19 <selsta> so they have to reach out for the simplest questions
20:51:28 <spacekitty420[m4> minexmr hasnt even started doing the dusting thingy
20:51:30 <spacekitty420[m4> that was a whole week before all that
20:53:28 <spacekitty420[m4> and conspiracy theories and there because it has been a pattern over and over again every single time
20:53:38 <spacekitty420[m4> same back in april, even days before monerun
20:54:02 <spacekitty420[m4> same way as rn where it was a whole week before the HF
20:54:20 <spacekitty420[m4> s/and/are/
20:56:03 <spacekitty420[m4> and its always the same ones (like binance) while the others a bit more legit (like kraken, tradeogre) never having that issue
21:03:49 <aremor[m]> <spacekitty420[m4> "and conspiracy theories and..." <- And they’re for profit companies with no regulation which means they can do whatever shady shit they think of and get away with it legally. Which is what most of them do. So it’s not a figment of imagination, it’s real life. It’s simply a question of determining which of them is doing which dirt 
21:04:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ive been in contact with kucoin 
21:04:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> No issues.
21:04:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> They closed on 12 will reopen ~ 19
21:05:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or earlier if network 'looks' good
21:05:17 <spacekitty420[m4> sigh
21:05:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> By the 19*
21:07:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> And again, im anti cex but ive never had any issues with kucoin xmr. Ever
21:07:54 <nioc> Exchanges aren't necessarily lying but just have one explanation whenever there are issues.  Polo always does this
21:08:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> Kicking never does.
21:08:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> Kucoin.
21:08:22 <nioc> I am not familiar with how others do it
21:08:41 <nioc> But they are lazy and/or don't care
21:08:52 <nioc> Not the same as malicious 
21:08:57 <ofrnxmr[m]>  ive seen on over a year was for this hard fork 
21:09:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> Only one ive seen in*
21:10:08 <selsta> there is also often a language barrier in finding out what the issue in the first place is
21:11:11 <selsta> some exchanges simply have monero integrated better than others, which means they have less downtime
21:12:11 <spacekitty420[m4> few years ago had an exchange (digifenex) literally lying to a fren checking in with them for me that their withdrawal werent closed while i had my funds there held hostage for 5 whole days, i just gave up, transfered to an other coin, withdraw as fast a possible then went to tradeogre instead
21:12:11 <spacekitty420[m4> like, exchange literally lied to him saying withdrawal werent closed which there were for 5 days...... they all shady pieces of shit, its not one big conspiracy....
21:12:24 <selsta> tradeogre is literally cryptonote focused, I'm not surprised that they know how to integrate monero without any issues
21:12:25 <sech1> selsta did binance fix their wallet?
21:12:45 <spacekitty420[m4> they did
21:12:55 <spacekitty420[m4> both withdrawal and deposit open rn apparently
21:13:03 <sech1> I know, I just checked
21:13:17 <sech1> It doesn't mean they fixed it :P
21:13:28 <spacekitty420[m4> 😹
21:14:34 <aremor[m]> > <@spacekitty420:matrix.org> few years ago had an exchange (digifenex) literally lying to a fren checking in with them for me that their withdrawal werent closed while i had my funds there held hostage for 5 whole days, i just gave up, transfered to an other coin, withdraw as fast a possible then went to tradeogre instead
21:14:35 <aremor[m]> > like, exchange literally lied to him saying withdrawal werent closed which there were for 5 days...... they all shady pieces of shit, its not one big conspiracy....
21:14:35 <aremor[m]> I don’t see a point in trying to find out which one is honest. Why risk it? They’re centralised services…. Most require KYC…. What is the benefit is trying to find the good one?  Just boycott all of them and be done with it 
21:14:59 <spacekitty420[m4> exactly :P
21:17:43 <aremor[m]> The sooner the entire community gets off of services that have the power to manipulate the value of Monero, the sooner we can have stable price and a revolving circular economy that has zero dependencies on what central banks are doing.  I really don’t understand why people have the desire to try to find some compatibility with banks that report to central banks
21:18:53 <spacekitty420[m4> like i been saying for awhile now tho, even if they dont have a single user on their platform they can still define the price from their fake volume
21:19:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> aremor: 
21:19:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> Im not complaining because I have no xmr on kucoin 
21:20:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> I trade NGU coins and withdraw xmr though.
21:20:24 <spacekitty420[m4> and am not saying that cause "but it should go to the moon" or some shit, they literally giving bad user experience, slowing adoption by doing so (which adoption more important than price) and fucking up with having a liquid market which is also more important than the price itself
21:20:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> I dont care if they own 99=9% of eth and tokens 🥲
21:20:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> spacekitty420[m4: OMG someone that understands tj traders set the price 
21:21:01 <aremor[m]> spacekitty420[m4: There’s so many different issues….. it just doesn’t make sense. Leave them and be done with it…. 
21:21:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> And this is why I ultimately call for delisting from cex
21:21:40 <spacekitty420[m4> same :3
21:21:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Traders set the price, meaning, if xmr folks wont use cex, cex gets to paper trade at whatever level they want 
21:22:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> This is why I also say we need to completely ignore cex prices.
21:22:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> My exchange rate for BTC... goes by supply 
21:23:22 <aremor[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: No problem. Not mad at you. You know what reality is and simply playing their game to get ahead. I guess I’m more upset at people who don’t know what truth is 
21:23:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> Not by cex that want to trade 10k btc for the entire xmr supply 🥲
21:24:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> Moneruns etc simply dont work
21:24:26 <spacekitty420[m4> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> This is why I also say we need to completely ignore cex prices.
21:24:26 <spacekitty420[m4> > 
21:24:26 <spacekitty420[m4> > My exchange rate for BTC... goes by supply
21:24:26 <spacekitty420[m4> apparently thats how serai gon work from what i understood, like liquidity itself on the platform gon define the price from the ratio and whatnot
21:24:59 <aremor[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Same here. I’m happy to see it 
21:25:13 <spacekitty420[m4> when both haveno and serai out, if there is an actual push for cex delisting that could be really ideal
21:25:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> A lot of people are pro cex as onramps... and haveno is.. pricey
21:26:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> And serai has its only iggles
21:26:28 <spacekitty420[m4> imo nothing wrong leaving the onramps to bitcoin then atomic swap that fucker
21:26:41 <aremor[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> This is why I also say we need to completely ignore cex prices.
21:26:41 <aremor[m]> > 
21:26:41 <aremor[m]> > My exchange rate for BTC... goes by supply 
21:26:41 <aremor[m]> 😂….. the common excuse is that localmonero is more expense.  Yeah! That’s the real price! Fake monero is always going to be cheaper.  Cause lots of folks aren’t withdrawing it.  Of course I can offer you a discount… 
21:26:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yeah yeah, I wasnt thinking.  I was thinking shut down cex, but yea delist xmr fornsure
21:27:03 <spacekitty420[m4> :3
21:27:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> aremor[m]: Local monero isnt even the real price. Its better, but imo big sellers should set their price to 5k and watch the magicn
22:09:09 <plowsof> localmonero = binance + 10% right? 😛
23:09:02 <TrasherDK[m]> <bullskey[m]> "how is there not one yet" <- It's called `git`