01:34:46 why does it take 18 minutes before my crypto is spendable ? is it a part of keeping everything anon ? 01:36:45 also why does it take so long for my wallet to sync ? 01:36:58 are you syncing your wallet or your daemon? 01:37:53 selsta: yeah 01:38:02 what would be a good restore heighy 01:38:14 it has to be a height before you first received a transaction 01:38:31 if you first used monero in August 2021 you can enter 2021-08-01 01:38:47 selsta: okay thanks 01:39:00 which wallet mode are you using currently? 01:39:22 assuming you are using monero-gui? 01:39:26 the lightest one 01:39:29 yeah gui 01:39:39 but nevermind I am synched now 01:39:41 ok, it might be better if you manually set a remote node 01:39:49 but why do I have to wait 20 min after I receive funds 01:40:02 selsta: I read it said there is no difference for me 01:40:32 usually yes, but since we forked there are a lot of nodes that didn't update which means it is currently possible that you connect to an outdated node 01:40:46 follow the steps in this comment, it takes less than a minute to change: https://github.com/monero-project/monero-gui/issues/3989#issuecomment-1214412781 01:40:56 selsta: I am connected to a good node right now 01:40:57 synched 01:41:08 The 20 minute lock is because when monero blocks reorganize (because of network latency), the transactions in the reorg'd blocks may end up referring to decoys that no-longer exist. That would make the transactions invalid and they'd be silently discarded which would be terribly confusing for new users. 01:41:08 To prevent transactions from getting silently discarded, users are forced to wait 20 minutes before spending so that a reorg would have to be 10 blocks deep to invalidate transactions. 01:41:28 > <@busyboredom:monero.social> The 20 minute lock is because when monero blocks reorganize (because of network latency), the transactions in the reorg'd blocks may end up referring to decoys that no-longer exist. That would make the transactions invalid and they'd be silently discarded which would be terribly confusing for new users. 01:41:28 > 01:41:28 > To prevent transactions from getting silently discarded, users are forced to wait 20 minutes before spending so that a reorg would have to be 10 blocks deep to invalidate transactions. 01:41:28 okay cool 01:41:31 bullskey[m]: what does it say as the height in the bottom left corner? 2694822? 01:41:38 or 2688... ? 01:41:46 exactlu 01:41:53 selsta: that one 01:42:46 ok, it seems like you are connected to a good node currently but if you start to have issues try to follow the steps in the link 01:44:05 damn its gonna take a while to churn then 01:44:17 If I have to wait 20 mins after each transaction 01:44:39 you should not churn anyway frequently in a row, that is bad for privacy 01:45:00 my xmr dissapeared after i changed the date of height 01:45:07 it has to sync 01:45:14 ok cool 01:45:22 selsta: how so ? 01:45:30 I want to churn since the xmr is received from kucoin 01:45:48 wouldnt it help privacy 01:46:17 it would be bad for privacy to frequently churn in a row 01:46:26 from what I have read if you want to churn at least wait a day or two inbetween 01:46:46 selsta: what about price fluctuation during those days 01:46:57 i don't see how it is related 01:47:03 well 01:47:14 what if the token crashes while I am waiting to churn 01:47:32 i don't know what you are planning to do exactly 01:47:47 if you want to sell you can just send them to the exchange 01:48:30 ok 02:14:51 What would happen if Monero’s tx count spiked really really high, mass adoption, given current upload / bandwidth constraints? 02:15:15 I am familiar with the Blockchain size limitation. It’s pretty linear and easy to calculate with math. 02:18:08 what do you mean with what would happen? i assume nodes without a good internet connection or slow hardware would fall behind 02:18:23 it would also take a bit until the dynamic block size increases 02:18:35 1,369,863 tx per day would lead to the blockchain expanding by 1 terabyte per year which is a reasonable upper bound estimate until SSD space increases or gets cheaper 02:19:19 Yes I’m referring to how a large uptick in transactions would affect nodes given modern day bandwidth constraints. 02:19:26 How would this affect the network? 02:20:05 it does not really, but the network would become more centralized with fewer nodes 02:20:09 Would tx’s get dropped from blocks? Would txs/blocks get propagated or mined more slowly? 02:20:16 What would be the negative consequences 02:20:48 blocks would not get mined more slowly 02:20:56 Yes, but I don’t think the centralization of nodes would be a problem (at least regarding storage space) 02:21:01 if blocks are full it might take a bit until your transaction is confirmed, or you have to pay a higher fee 02:21:39 Selsta, you are big brain relative to me. How does bandwidth / upload constraints affect Monero network / nodes 02:21:51 Yep I see what you mean regarding full blocks 02:22:09 And I think I have a decent understanding of SSDs, tx count, and chain size expansion. 02:22:28 luckily there won't be mass adoption from one day to another, so the network has time to grow and whatever inefficiencies in software exist can slowly be improved 02:22:33 It would lead to centralization, but the price of Monero would likely have gone up considerably by then 02:22:50 I will run that node if the chain actually gets that big. 02:22:59 I agree 02:23:16 I’m just trying to reduce my ignorance regarding Monero as much as possible 02:24:00 monero transactions are about 5-6 times larger than bitcoin transactions, and they take longer to verify 02:24:11 I remember ArticMine said chain size expansion and upload / bandwidth are the bottlenecks. I don’t understand how bandwidth constraints Monero’s network 02:24:22 Ah verification 02:24:24 since monero has a dynamic block size it has more throughput than bitcoin 02:24:30 That was the part he was talking about 02:24:35 Verification and bandwidth 02:24:53 I follow what you are saying so far 02:24:54 all blocks and transactions have to be verified 02:25:03 https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/405/how-many-transactions-per-second-can-the-monero-network-handle 02:25:35 So what is the constraint bandwidth places upon verification time? What negative consequences would be observed in practice if this bottleneck were reached? 02:25:45 I will read that article too 02:25:49 Thank you for taking time to respond to me 02:25:55 I am small brain compared to you guys 02:26:08 it is difficult to say what exactly happens when limits get reached 02:26:22 This thread says ~8 tx/s with every Mbit/s connection speed. 02:27:16 * monerobull[m] uploaded an image: (77KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/nkRGuqxmSaqYiICcCwAqlotS/Screenshot_20220822-042658.png > 02:27:30 I don't think this will be a problem for quite some time 02:28:25 monerobull[m]: Outdated data btw, not sure if transactions are smaller or larger nowadays 02:29:08 The chainbloat argument is FUD against Monero in my opinion. 02:29:31 Transaction grew with last update afaik (more ring sigs) 02:29:32 My mindset when looking at Crypto is that it is effectively a competition between Bitcoin and Monero. 02:30:08 bridgerton[m]: True, storage is cheap, and monero can be used on HDD for nodes as long as they initially sync with SSD 02:30:29 Monero does have unique risk factors associated with it, but so does Bitcoin. There are tradeoffs with using either chain. I just think Monero dunks on Bitcoin. 02:30:47 > <@bridgerton:matrix.org> The chainbloat argument is FUD against Monero in my opinion. 02:30:48 * True, storage is cheap, and monero can be used on HDD for nodes as long as they initially sync with SSD 02:30:48 Can also easily use tierced storage (like nvme cache + array of HDD) 02:31:10 Is that really practical though? To sync with SSD, then move it to an HDD? Wouldn’t this still be slow to write to the HDD? 02:31:29 bridgerton[m]: You do it one time, than you leave you're node 24/7 online 02:31:48 Also what would happen when that user wants to sync new blocks via SSD but the chain is stored on a separate HDD? 02:31:58 It would probably be possible to sync using SSD as cache and save everything but some of the most recent 8th of the chain on a hdd if we really needed it 02:31:58 you can't do that 02:32:18 bridgerton[m]: Tierced storage, if you use Linux learn LVM for example 02:32:18 selsta: Not yet 02:32:25 Or is it literally impossible? 02:32:25 s/LVM/LVM2/ 02:32:31 Alright 02:32:34 anyway, having an SSD will be important when we have huge TPS 02:32:44 This is complicated haha 02:32:52 Yeah HDD and Monero seem like a bad idea lol 02:32:53 verification requires fast disk speed 02:33:05 That way you use both SSD and HDD, sdd used for cache, eventually it get stored to HDD (plus it cache the most used HDD data) 02:33:16 Selsta I want your personal opinion on hypothetical situation 02:33:21 s/sdd/SSD/ 02:33:47 We already have pruned nodes that get data they don't have from different nodes, why wouldn't it possible to get data you don't have on SSD from your hdd? 02:34:12 If Monero got adoption and the size of the blockchain was 8 TB in 2030, how heavily do you think this would affect people running Monero nodes? How many nodes would go offline? 02:34:25 Not a whole lot 02:34:27 pruned nodes only get data from other nodes during the initial sync 02:34:30 I would trust Selsta 02:34:35 They are maintainer 02:34:42 bridgerton[m]: Considering a 16TB drive cost about 300-350$ right now 02:34:42 luigi is maintainer 02:34:43 monerobull[m]: Initial syncing would suck 02:34:43 They are built different. Huge brain 02:35:04 RavFX[m]: SSDs? 02:35:30 monerobull[m]: Tierced storage 02:35:46 joshhavepigdog: I can't predict this 02:35:48 That's price for HDD 02:35:48 Get a 1TB drive or something for the fast layer 02:35:52 I don't know how reality will look like in 2030 lol 02:35:58 If you had to predict it 02:36:06 * a 1TB SSD drive or 02:36:51 Let’s say Monero’s blockchain is 8 Terabytes in 2030 and an 8 Terabyte SSD costs $1000 USD (due to the bankers doubling the money supply every now and again lol) 02:36:57 well hardware will likely improve in the next 8 years so I don't think 8TB storage are a problem 02:37:04 How much would this impact node centralization 02:37:31 Given this hypothetical situation, even if Monero expands by 1 TB per year we are still fine 02:38:04 Selsta, wouldn’t you agree that the blockchain size increasing too rapidly argument is pretty far fetched even for Monero? 02:38:10 At least over the next decade. 02:38:35 I don't worry about it 02:38:58 I mean adoption would have to go up about 30 X for it to even reach 1 TB per year in chain expansion 02:39:01 If usage would rapidly increase, you'd think price also does and all people currently running nodes would probably be very rich at that point 02:39:08 What about the verification and bandwidth though? 02:39:17 I’m less familiar with the technicalities there. 02:39:38 Yes I will run a node when I am not a poverty stricken pea brain. 02:39:53 Then I will be a wealthy pea brain 02:41:00 "https://monero.stackexchange.com..." <- Look up how big transactions are currently and do some math? Nobody really bothers since it's a really far out there scenario 02:41:02 a lot of the people who say "monero grows too fast" still think we have the huge transactions we had before bulletproofs 02:42:18 monero transactions used to be 50x larger than bitcoin transactions, now they are 5-6x larger 02:43:44 Also notice that spending Bitcoin "privately" requires about the same amount of chain-space as a single monero transaction 02:45:35 Monerobull, thanks I am aware of that. Thanks to Seth for his work 02:45:43 Thanks for the replies Selsta 02:45:55 nodes can handle ~8 tx/s with every Mbit/s connection speed 02:46:15 What is a mbit/s ? 02:46:18 Well no, that was the case in 2016 02:46:28 Assuming an average transaction size of around 15 KiB, nodes can handle ~8 tx/s with every Mbit/s connection speed. 02:46:34 Is this download or upload speed? I’m only familiar with megabyte download speed or upload? 02:46:47 like I said we don't have 15KB tx anymore 02:46:48 bridgerton[m]: 1MB/s 02:47:03 > <@bridgerton:matrix.org> What is a mbit/s ? 02:47:03 * 120KiB/s 02:47:30 Yeah we have 2kb approximately 02:47:56 And 1 megabyte = 8 megabits 02:48:06 so 60 transactions per 1MBit/s 02:49:24 We just about did 1.something TPS during the big transaction storm right before the fork 02:49:29 Assuming most people in the world have 3 megabyte = 24 megabit upload speed, Then 24 x 60 = 1,440 tx per second 02:49:44 I feel like I butchered the conversion somewhere 02:50:03 I’m not sure if internet is measured in megabyte per minute or per second usually 02:50:13 it is advertised as MBit 02:50:16 as that's that larger number 02:50:38 Bit is 8 times larger than byte 02:50:43 Right? 02:50:55 8 bit = 1 byte 02:51:08 I’m going to do an internet speed test to see if I can get to the bottom of this 02:51:12 Ah fuck 02:51:39 I mean ISPs rather advertise 100Mbit/s than 12.5MB/s 02:54:15 I’m not sure 02:54:26 What is Mbps? 02:54:28 selsta: Nothing is as bad as the shit they pull with storage mediums :P 02:54:40 Is that Megabytes or megabits? 02:54:43 bridgerton[m]: Small b is bit 02:55:00 Big B is byte (8 bit) 02:55:05 What do you guys get in “Mbps”? 02:55:20 MB is not equel to MiB 02:55:26 s/equel/equal/ 02:55:28 Allegedly at my friends house I got 27 Mbps download speed 02:55:32 25 up 10 down 02:56:11 Gigabit fiber would be 1000 up, right? 02:56:23 s/up/down/ 02:56:27 I’m talking about people in India and stuff lol 02:56:28 monerobull[m]: Depend of the ISP 02:56:46 but yeah, it's common for 1Gbits 02:56:55 Because the thought experiment is trying to determine the affects of Bandwidth, mass adoption and if Network can handle it 02:57:03 Man, i can't wait till i get fiber 02:57:35 Is the bandwidth limitation in Monero regarding the upload or download speed? 02:57:58 “so 60 transactions per 1MBit/s” 02:57:58 I would assume both but download is more important 02:58:23 If only I could figure out how many Mbits/second I’m getting lol 02:58:39 I’ll assume the 27 number I saw was Mbit/second 02:59:24 But I’ll assume most people in the third world who are in difficult financial circumstances running Monero nodes get 5 mbit/second download speed. 03:00:38 5 Mbit/s x 60 tx/s = 300 tx/s = 18,000 tx per minute = 1,080,000 tx per hour 03:00:56 I might be overthinking this small hypothetical scenario lol 03:01:11 Even as a third world country you can't get much worse in regards to internet than Germany and Germany has some of the most nodes in the world ;) 03:01:13 bridgerton[m]: Depend where in majority world countries, quite variable. 03:01:13 Lot of Africa have very long Internet. 03:01:14 Lot of Latin America have very fast internet. 03:01:14 But Africa try to improve there network afaik. 03:01:32 Basically Monero network today could probably handle 500k to 1 mill transactions per day after the blocks expand enough from the dynamic block algo. 03:01:33 s/long/slow/ 03:02:13 We don't even do 1 million a month right now so i think that's pretty decent 03:02:22 More than 1 million transactions per day starts to get uncertain in terms of both storage on SSDs for poor people in 3rd world running nodes + having enough bandwidth to support many tx per minute. 03:02:35 bridgerton[m]: Yeah, and don't forget the max bandwidth utilization won't hit that often. 03:02:35 Even if some node will lag a little, once the top of the blob is past, it will catch up 03:02:55 Like network peak hour 03:03:24 I’m stupid so I have a hard time understanding how bandwidth would harm the network 03:04:03 Even if one node fails to relay a transaction or transactions, other nodes with better bandwidth will submit those txs from the mempool or to the mempool right? 03:04:23 I guess since you are only connected to one node when you relay your tx it is dependent on the bandwidth of that single node 03:04:46 it does not harm the network 03:04:47 Whether it is your own node or connecting to a remote node 03:05:03 Is my above analysis correct? 03:05:35 What is the worst case outcome for someone who experiences a bandwidth limitation from a node they are connected to and relaying a tx to Selsta? 03:06:14 Transaction would probably take a bit longer 03:06:17 Also if everything we have said is true, then isn’t the whole node centralization thing kind of just a boogeyman 03:06:40 there are cryptocurrencies where you can't run a node at home because they have insane hardware requirements 03:07:23 bridgerton[m]: It always was, to keep Bitcoin transactions expensive and give L2 like Blockstream a reason to exist 03:07:23 But it’s not like your tx would fail? Or even if it did fail it’s not like you’d lose those funds? For a tx can only be in one’s own wallet at generation or in the mempool or mined in a block. There is no other void it can disappear to. 03:07:24 ^ right? 03:07:40 Like ethereum and solana right? 03:07:53 Nodes could be improved, to be about to configure p2p and rpc max bandwidth. 03:07:53 that way some could be reserved to receive from RPC & rebroadcasting there TX 03:07:57 s/about/able/ 03:08:30 But if our above reasoning is correct then this wouldn’t start to affect Monero until we start hitting 1.5 to 2 million transactions per day right? 03:09:01 Except for ADSLs in africa, I think it should not be a problem. 03:09:37 I understand that there are some crypto currencies like Ethereum that are a pain in the tail to run at home, near impossible, but this can’t/is very very unlikely to happen to Monero this decade right? 03:09:53 bridgerton[m]: It's not the same thing 03:09:53 Yeah 03:10:01 We don't do smart contracts 03:10:08 Africa has larger problems that internet and crypto at the moment in my opinion 03:10:26 But yes crypto is important to solve the profligate antics of African shit fiat currencies lol 03:10:50 I understand that Monero doesn’t do smart contracts 03:11:20 I’m trying to understand why what happens to Ethereum with node centralization can’t/ won’t happen to Monero, at least in the next 10 years 03:11:46 If we actually got to that point, I'm sure there are enough (now wealthy monero enthusiasts) who would pay for hosting nodes in different countries datacenters 03:12:02 That was what I was thinking as well 03:12:11 But even then 03:12:28 Perhaps I’m just overthinking things and wasting your guys time 03:12:43 I appreciate the educational content 03:12:46 bridgerton[m]: You kinda are, none of this will matter for years 03:12:56 But it's fun:) 03:13:10 Yes but people could’ve said the same thing about the halving and tail emission 03:13:13 And look at things now 03:13:24 with a pruned node still being less than 60gb i don't worry much about scaling currently 03:13:36 The “it won’t matter for years” argument is kind of bad thinking in my opinion 03:13:45 Understood 03:13:53 Just like it didn't matter when people discussed this in the 2016 thread 03:14:04 We should kiss the tx_extra field good bye 03:14:13 Not really 03:14:20 Why not? 03:14:37 The Serai guy is the only guy who wants it lol 03:14:41 Stuff like serai needs it 03:14:53 Seems like unnecessary attack surface for when Law Enforcement just spams the bee movie in the tx extra field lol 03:14:56 * agus10[m] uploaded an image: (21KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/NScnCADzoCXzosfkUYtYlBWK/image.png > 03:15:01 Hello Monero Community. I wanted to ask something, hoping someone could give me some light. I updated my monero gui, and also updated the trezor firmware to 2.5.2. A week ago, I found my funds in monero gui but couldnt send to edge wallet because , i was told, i needed to wait for the trezor firmware update. Now that it is updated i get the following messages from the monero gui wallet: 03:15:01 Yeah he is the only one lol 03:15:28 agus10[m]: which wallet mode are you using? 03:15:35 Don’t know anything about hardware wallets sorry 03:15:38 you can check in Settings -> info 03:15:44 " Africa has..." <- Inflation is a big one 03:15:47 bridgerton[m]: You still need to pay for that 03:16:16 You mean people have to pay more in fees if they spam the tx extra field? 03:16:28 > <@agus10:matrix.org> Hello Monero Community. I wanted to ask something, hoping someone could give me some light. I updated my monero gui, and also updated the trezor firmware to 2.5.2. A week ago, I found my funds in monero gui but couldnt send to edge wallet because , i was told, i needed to wait for the trezor firmware update. Now that it is updated i get the following messages from the monero gui wallet: 03:16:28 > 03:16:28 There's quite the active discussion going on here right now, maybe repost to #monero-support:monero.social 03:16:31 To be honest I shat my pants when I saw the tx extra field 03:16:38 The feds just have to spam that field lol 03:16:46 bridgerton[m]: Obviously 03:16:56 I didn’t know that 03:17:02 The bigger your transaction, the more you pay 03:17:06 Or I thought it was like 5 Pennie’s instead of 1 penny tx fee 03:17:23 Yeah but I don’t think it would stop a motivated attack on Monero’s network 03:17:24 Chain 03:17:30 selsta: Hi selsta, I see it says the simple mode 03:17:46 agus10[m]: try to set a custom remote node, follow the steps in this comment: https://github.com/monero-project/monero-gui/issues/3989#issuecomment-1214412781 03:18:08 Monero’s true merit will depend on its ability to outlast Bitcoin and law enforcement totalitarian crackdowns in the future. 03:18:20 selsta: will check it out.. thanks 03:18:23 It’s already one the utility race as evidenced in Onion land 03:19:27