02:59:46 <kowalabearhugs[m> <plowsof> "How much does koe earn for..." <- If ooo1234 would submit a CSS or Magic Grant Proposal for Bulletproofs++ then it would surely get funded. One issue is that I don't believe said protocols and the code have been peer reviewed. The author said they are working on submitting the paper to conferences, so hopefully that changes in the coming months.
05:15:46 <chesterfield[m]> <Siren[m]1> "so is there a monero payment..." <- Btcpayserver 
11:14:51 <r4v3r23[m]> 2500
11:15:50 <r4v3r23[m]> <plowsof> "nikg83 lol wat 2500 xmr..." <- wonder if its related to this: https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/pull/2013#issuecomment-1234523829
11:16:30 <r4v3r23[m]> same timing as the last 2 comments
11:19:31 <selsta> r4v3r23[m]: yes, seems to be the person who donated
11:20:12 <r4v3r23[m]> selsta: will core use it to purchase the domain?
11:20:46 <r4v3r23[m]> looks to me thats what the donation was for
11:21:05 <selsta> no idea
11:21:44 <r4v3r23[m]> interesting
11:22:30 <sech1> yeah, the comment and the 2500 XMR donation are 3 minutes apart
11:22:57 <sech1> and the github account was created just to make that comment
11:35:16 <r4v3r23[m]> cleary for the domain then
11:35:28 <r4v3r23[m]> has anyone had contact with the donor?
11:39:26 <selsta> seems to be a throwaway acc
11:42:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> <r4v3r23[m]> "will core use it to purchase the..." <- I hope not
11:55:50 <Inge> anyone have a link to the viewkeys of the current dev fund wallet?
12:01:23 <r4v3r23[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "I hope not" <- its clearly for that
12:01:45 <spackle_xmr[m]> https://www.getmonero.org/2021/06/24/general-fund-2020-2021-report.html
12:02:07 <spackle_xmr[m]> Inge: 
12:03:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> r4v3r23[m]: Its in general fund. No reason we have to blow like 50% of the fund on a domain 
12:04:14 <r4v3r23[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: unless the reason it was donated was for that
12:04:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> Doesn't matter
12:04:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its not a ccs
12:04:35 <r4v3r23[m]> im not saying buy the domain, but looks like thats what the donor wanted
12:04:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> General fund roadmap isnt ""buy domain"
12:04:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yeah, ^^ I agree
12:06:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> But I think the money could be better used right now.
12:06:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> I believe vik (Cake):  would "hold" the domain until were in a better position to buy it. If he was to put on open market.. yeah, we should probably rush to get it.
12:08:44 <selsta> I feel like we shouldn't get involved with domain names at all at that price range.
12:09:29 <selsta> no matter if it gets on the open market or not
12:11:30 <r4v3r23[m]> selsta: agreed, but its basically just been given to the project
12:11:37 <selsta> otherwise the monero.org domain is next where we have to rush to get it before someone malicious buys it
12:13:42 <Inge> spackle_xmr[m]: thanks
12:18:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> selsta:  I agree.. even though the money was given to us, 400k for a domain is out if the question.. far better uses for that much needed money 
12:20:18 <selsta> let's wait for core
12:26:10 <monerobull[m]> Well if someone messes with it, we can just DMCA it, right
12:49:08 <plowsof> Increase HackerOne rewards  / bulletproofs++ (security audits aren't cheap) implement trustless zk proofs, fix anon network / p2p traffic in monero and cherry on top - one more payment processor 
12:49:48 <plowsof> Or buy a domain 
12:55:42 <r4v3r23[m]> <plowsof> "Increase HackerOne rewards..." <- no ones arguing that these arent better uses for the money
12:55:49 <cryptogrampy[m]> Why didn't the donor just buy the domain 
12:55:54 <cryptogrampy[m]> And donate it
12:56:01 <plowsof> Refund if he wants a domain
12:56:48 <r4v3r23[m]> cryptogrampy[m]: prob doesnt want to dox himself
12:58:04 <r4v3r23[m]> easier to leave logistics to core
12:58:24 <monerobull[m]> What donor?
12:58:36 <monerobull[m]> Did someone send us 50% of general fund?
12:58:40 <r4v3r23[m]> <r4v3r23[m]> "wonder if its related to this..." <- monerobull: 
13:01:01 <monerobull[m]> The numbers, what do they mean
13:01:30 <monerobull[m]> Transaction + amount?
13:02:39 <plowsof> Amount hidden with **** xD 
13:02:59 <monerobull[m]> But.. viewkeys 
13:03:16 <monerobull[m]> I guess they didn't want to flex THAT hard in the GitHub comments
13:10:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> > <@plowsof:matrix.org> Refund if he wants a domain
13:10:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> > 
13:10:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> No refunds
14:25:19 <monerobull[m]> Hm
14:26:06 <monerobull[m]> If someone just blows 400k into the general fun like that, i would assume they also fund a lot of ccs proposals 
14:27:19 <monerobull[m]> If i were this guy, i might not donate anymore after the donation i made with very obvious intent to buy the domain was used for other things
14:35:55 <sech1> I've read the whole github discussion and I haven't found anywhere that core agreed to buying it. So throwing the money at it was a bit too premature, it doesn't oblige core to anything.
14:40:42 <sech1> CakeWallet even said "Anyway, I do not intend to sell now, but make the changes above you and others have asked for." https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/pull/2013#issuecomment-1213060469
14:43:10 <netrik182> this is only speculation anyways. if they want the donation to be used for a specific thing, they just need to talk to core and core can decide
14:43:53 <netrik182> there's not point in assuming core will buy it and the domain isn't for sale as far as we know
14:47:54 <monerobull[m]> Yeah, it's not like they don't have the ability to clarify 
14:53:00 <plowsof> The general fund does not have 300-400k usd to spend on bridging the #monero room to matrix waits
14:54:40 <netrik182> should leave a comment here https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/549 maybe another anon donor chaimes in :)
14:55:41 <netrik182> chaimes -> chimes
15:01:02 <monerobull[m]> <plowsof> "The general fund does not have 3..." <- I could probably just plug it into the discord bridge but i have never really used IRC before 
15:02:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> <sech1> "I've read the whole github..." <- This.
15:03:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> <monerobull[m]> "If i were this guy, i might..." <- And this opens the door for legal issues 
15:04:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> You cant donate and then write a script for them to follow.
15:04:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Thats paying someone to do a specific duty.
15:04:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Which raised huge red flags about where the money came from.
15:04:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Core has to use the money however they initially would have, else it is pretty much money laundering lolz
15:13:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> luigi1111:  re haveno ccs payout request
15:13:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> Considering they have to convert the money to pay 3rd party contractors using fiat, they they should be paid out as soon as the remaining value is enough to cover all costs. Under the condition that haveno proves they have liquidated the xmr and hold enough fiat to complete the project. 
15:14:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> Last time around, they held the xmr while in profit, and liquidate while deep in the red 
15:15:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> So.. step 1 - paying out doesnt fix step 2 - liquidating the xmr
15:17:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> "We would convert the entire amount to stablecoins to safeguard its fiat value and then convert them to xmr to pay the UI team (or maybe pay them directly with stablecoins). Feel free to ask further clarifications if needed."
15:17:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> Erciccione said this.
15:17:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> I dont agree with this. 
15:17:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> Does the ui team want xmr of usd? They need to make up their mind
15:19:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> If the ui team wants xmr, then they should be making good on the original arrangement.
15:19:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> There is no guarantee of stablecoins either, and even less guarantee of fungibility 
15:56:04 <tiny_voice1563[m> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> If the ui team wants xmr, then they should be making good on the original arrangement.
15:56:04 <tiny_voice1563[m> > There is no guarantee of stablecoins either, and even less guarantee of fungibility 
15:56:04 <tiny_voice1563[m> Agree. They have been super sketch this entire process and straight up backed out on original promises. I’m willing to compromise on converting to stable but not willing to pay it all out at once to give them full control. This is a two way street. I’m ok with a third party holding DAI for them at the price they say is good if that’s what they prefer as a compromise. 
15:56:21 <ct[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> You cant donate and then write a script for them to follow.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/6327839bd5c60459d5a843b3f0dcfbb803b1ea47)
16:09:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its nice to have a big heart, but be real
16:10:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> In what world can you double someones capital, tell them what to do with it, and call that anything but trouble 
16:11:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> There are no refunds, thats must how it is. There are circumstances (like accidental deposits) that might warrant a refund. Telling someone what to do is not
16:11:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> Core has 0 obligation to spend 50% of the fund on a domain list because someone else wanted their money to buy it
16:13:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> The argument wasnt that core doesnt have enough money.
16:13:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> The argument was that 400k for a domain is absolutely ridiculous for a decentralized project to yolo funds on when we cant even afford developers. 
16:15:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> I said.. somewhere.. that if tf was 10x its size, maybe we could talk about throwing that much on a domain.
16:15:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> Imagine if every donator could tell gf exactly where to allocate those funds. 
16:15:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> There's nothing decentralized about that. Thats just text book money laundering
16:16:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> Smart way:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/6cb39d3d357759619421e89b6dc5f58819487f99)
16:25:32 <r4v3r23[m]> <sech1> "I've read the whole github..." <- the entire point of the donation was because core *didnt* have the money to buy the domain name, and this anon shows up and basically says "here, you do now"
16:28:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> And they still dont have the money
16:28:54 <kinghat[m]> never underestimate ones ideals for anothers money
16:28:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> Technically they had enough before, tecynically they have enough now.
16:28:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> Only an idiot spends half of their capital on an nft that isnt going anywhere anytime soon
16:29:30 <r4v3r23[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: the tx is confirmed right?
16:29:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> Of course 
16:29:47 <r4v3r23[m]> kinghat[m]: right. getting greedy on a massive donation is really off putting
16:30:03 <r4v3r23[m]> this isnt a random 2500 XMR that just dropped in GF
16:30:08 <r4v3r23[m]> theres context
16:30:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> And?
16:30:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> That doesnt mean you can come to my wallet, donate some money and then tell me what to do with it 
16:31:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> Thats not a donation 
16:31:07 <ofrnxmr[m]> That a directive 
16:31:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> And its not exactly all good from a legal standpoint 
16:31:52 <r4v3r23[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: "There is no way the general fund has 300k-400k to buy a domain name. "
16:31:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> For the same reason the person didnt buy the domain and transfer the domain, is the same reason a sale of 400k from this person who hid their finds to go around the backdoor to buy the domain. Aka money laundering
16:31:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> And it isnt like gf managers agent doxxed
16:32:23 <kinghat[m]> if core someone said in the comments, "was this donation under the stipulation of purchasing monero.com," would you then uphold it?
16:32:38 <kinghat[m]> core or someone*
16:32:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> No, you dont get to be a VC investor and dictate what the gf funds are allocated to
16:33:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> Otherwise the gf is just a 1 way trip to jail
16:33:20 <ct[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "Its nice to have a big heart..." <- You are absolutely right, I'm not arguing with the facts. I'm just asking you to be a bit compassionate in your wording. If I sacrifice some of my time or money for a cause I believe in I at minimum expect not to be treated like shit.
16:33:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Smart way:... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/aae9e2ff7af8c91d3b66cf0ff45a1f5aee3ae256)
16:33:44 <entry1[m]> You can ask before donating, not after donating where funds get allocated
16:33:44 <chesterfield[m]> Is this for Monero.org?
16:33:44 <kinghat[m]> you act like it was owed to the gf. pretend it didnt exist if the domain purchase wasnt going to happen. youre in the same position as before.
16:34:08 <nioc> chesterfield[m]: monero dot com
16:34:46 <kinghat[m]> monero.org.com
16:34:59 <nioc> buy all the domains
16:37:57 <chesterfield[m]> Wen cake.Monero.com
16:39:15 <kinghat[m]> i do agree that core isnt bound to anything with the gf, but your point was that its stupid to spend half the gf on a domain. while that might be true, you equally dont get to tell core gf not to spend it on a domain.
16:40:14 <nioc> wait we can have it all
16:40:22 <nioc> just pump price
16:41:49 <kinghat[m]> that person should start buying up all the coins with their coins.
16:42:13 <chesterfield[m]> Code improvements are temporary, a domain is forever
16:43:21 <entry1[m]> nioc: Someone locate Sminem right now
16:44:37 <chesterfield[m]> nioc: ***taps head
16:45:06 <chesterfield[m]> Just dedicate half to a domain name for if price goes up, use other half for general fund general things
16:45:07 <chesterfield[m]> Ez
16:45:51 <chesterfield[m]> Everyone wins
16:46:18 <chesterfield[m]> Core can spend 20k on adding number go up tech
16:46:37 <luigi1111> What is the context for the donation?
16:47:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> chesterfield[m]: Domains arent forever
16:47:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> luigi1111: The context is anti cake wallet owning monero.com 
16:47:40 <luigi1111> Oh nvm
16:48:31 <nioc> luigi1111: there was a github post with a comment at the same time the donation was made
16:48:48 <nioc> sorry don't have the link
16:49:03 <spackle_xmr[m]> https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/pull/2013
16:49:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> Fwiw the problems were resolved afaict
16:50:05 <nioc> https://github.com/monero-project/monero-site/pull/2013#issuecomment-1235607330
16:51:03 <nioc> core speaketh 
16:51:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> But too quietly 
16:51:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> Whispereth*
16:52:45 <nioc> just give it to jberman[m] and ooooooo
16:53:47 <kinghat[m]> ooo
16:54:48 <kinghat[m]> hes still recharging from his last battles
16:58:40 <r4v3r23[m]> <kinghat[m]> "i do agree that core isnt..." <- exactly
16:59:22 <SerHack> nioc: +100
17:10:33 <luigi1111> Walk softly and carry a big stick
18:01:44 <KNNY[m]> <luigi1111> "Walk softly and carry a big..." <- don't walk to fast you may trip someone 
18:41:37 <afungible[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "And its not exactly all good..." <- What's the 'legal standpoint' from point of view of receiving an untraceable donation to GF? If this donation can be back traced to a bad actor at some point through other means, this can cause problem for GF.. if thts what you meant!?
18:41:37 <afungible[m]> Ideally, a clearer communication from the donor for making a significant donation would do greater good than letting people speculate on the intent and converting that into altercation internally. I think GF should clarify a clear rule book & priority on how a donation will be spent. I haven't found such a writeup from General fund, so how they spend funds might look open ended to an outsider.
18:44:00 <afungible[m]> * What's the 'legal standpoint' from point of view of receiving an untraceable donation to GF? If this donation can be back traced to a bad actor at some point through other means, this can cause problem for GF.. if thts what you meant!?
18:44:00 <afungible[m]> Ideally, a clearer communication from the donor for making a significant donation would do greater good than letting people speculate on the intent and converting that into altercation internally. I think GF could clarify with a clearer rule book & priority on how a donation is spent. I haven't found such a writeup from General fund, so how they spend funds might look open ended to an outsider.
19:16:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> That is what I meant. Bad opsec to "donate" to a closed pr and then announce it 3 mins after, so it doesnt have to be a bad actor that made the donation 
19:21:05 <afungible[m]> ah..didn't realize it was 3 minutes "after".. thought it was before donation was made.. but guess, won't matter much as to how GF would deal with it.
19:21:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> Making a donation isnt the part that raises the red flags and paints targets. Its giving money that was not requested and having it earmarked for a specific, regulated purpose.
19:21:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> The fact that it is obvious to _everyone_ here that the money has a purpose would imply were not the only ones that noticed
19:23:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> And, ive never seen a donation where I can donate with the intention of telling them what to do.
19:23:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> That an investor / VC funding / sharktank.
19:23:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> If you donate to GF, you are leaving the decisions to them. Can you put forward ideas? Of course. Should your donation be used for whatever you predecided? Thats not a donation 
19:23:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> My comparison was, a ccs for this would have no red flags 
19:24:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> Dropping 400k in someones tip jar and then telling them to buy a new lambo, or everyone expecting them to.. isnt how donations work. If the sender is a resident of xyz country, that could very well fall under money laundering
19:25:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> CCS = NP. Gf = VC funding without reporting it
19:25:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> The last thing we need is a reason for tornado cash to happen on monero 
19:28:15 <afungible[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: All are fair points.
19:28:15 <afungible[m]> and CCS would be a better route should one want to 'exercise' their intent.
19:32:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> If ccs is funded = money has to go towards goal.
19:32:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> Id lose faith in GF if they made deciions like spending half of the capital on a dick measuring contest
19:33:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monero.com isnt in the hands of someone who is going to turn around and charge 5m down the road.
19:33:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its in the hand of someone who took it off the market when we couldnt afford to
19:33:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> Vik has already said that he'd be willing to sell it to the core team at any time.
19:37:45 <esac212[m]> Yo! I became lazy recently and cant search Intwrnet anymore. Can you suggest a hosting for a remote node that accepts payments in crypto? Does it even make a sense to host a remote node via the untrusted hosting provider, or is it as secure as using someone else's public node? 
19:43:45 <esac212[m]> I'm talking about monero walletn remote nodes of course
20:14:28 <afungible[m]> An off topic question, bt since it revolves around GF. Is GF monitored as a multisig wallet   or controlled by an single seed? Coz boating accidents can happen for mysterious reasons.
20:31:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> Single seed, I believe controlled by binaryFate
20:31:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> Someone should correct me if im wrong. I dont recall where I heard this
20:52:27 <afungible[m]> Hmm.. interesting. In the spirit of decentralization, and not tht it can occur, we do realize a single mishap can cause irreparable damage to GF as it is collection of trust from all participants. Perhaps, there are backups in place & I'm just extrapolating a non-issue.
21:00:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> It doesnt help that multisig was vulnerable and is still potentially 
21:00:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> So I cant blame them if it is indeed not a multisig
21:06:11 <plowsof> Multisig might be a logistics nightmare also
21:08:46 <r4v3r23[m]> "did you hear guys? moneros general fund wallet is held by ONE PERON. told you its a CENTRALIZED PROJECT"
21:09:19 <plowsof> We cant even renew our ssl certs on time 
21:11:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> r4v3r23[m]: There's nothing really decentralized about gf.
21:11:46 <afungible[m]> > <@plowsof:matrix.org> Multisig might be a logistics nightmare also
21:11:46 <afungible[m]> > 
21:11:46 <afungible[m]> Yes sure, tht could be. I'm just questioning what "mechanisms" do we have in place to protect what could potentially be/become the weakest link in a project. Things happen when we least expect it.
21:11:46 <afungible[m]> I think it's a fair question to ask.
21:11:50 <chamRoosh[m]> Is this IRC have a telegram group?!
21:12:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> I thought that was well known. The community doesnt get to vote of gf spending last I checked. Its a core only thing
21:13:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> Core uses it to pay for backend stuff and help fill some ccs etc. But there would be no need for a transparency report if it was decentralized
21:13:54 <Rucknium[m]> afungible: IMHO, the GF isn't the weakest link in the project since it isn't very important for the project.
21:16:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> There are plenty of ways to fund monero. The general fund is describes on getmonero.org as... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/bb3151f0f4bbeecc0c5f4e52da61559429f007dd)
21:18:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://www.getmonero.org/get-started/contributing/
21:24:20 <afungible[m]> Sure. My main question revolved around are the keys to GF safe, shld smthing uncalled for happen to the one behind the keys? Are there backups for other core members should that be necessary? If yes, then my question is answered. I am not questioning the transparency, I think they've been transparent enough.
21:25:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> I wouldnt imagine bf is the only one with access
21:25:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> But I also doubt they will expose how the seed has been distributed 
21:35:50 <BusyBoredom[m]> I'm late to the party, but my two piconeros are that we should buy the domain with the donated money. The intent was clear. If the donor had done this through a CCS proposal or similar, we wouldn't be debating it. 
21:35:50 <BusyBoredom[m]> The fact the donor put it in the general fund is just semantics in my eyes. The money was given with a purpose in mind, and I think that should be honored. 
21:38:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ccs proposals arent unilaterally accepted 
21:40:22 <BusyBoredom[m]> I don't think that really matters here, it's not like he gave $10k and is asking for another $390. His donation seems to cover the full cost. 
21:41:42 <BusyBoredom[m]> A better analogy would have been if he'd said "Hey, here's a CCS proposal to but the domain. If you accept it, I'll fund the whole thing myself". That CCS proposal would obviously be accepted.
21:41:57 <BusyBoredom[m]> To buy*
21:43:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> BusyBoredom[m]: It wouldnt obviously vs accepted 
21:44:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> Id personally advocate for, if youre going to double our funds to allocate it towards something progressive 
21:44:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> 400k to buy a domain isnt a 400k donation. Its just monero.com
21:45:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> And monero.com isnt worth 50% of our capital
21:45:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> A cririyxsl vuln can cost 400k
21:45:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> And we pay people 10k.
21:47:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> If course, they could have contacted bF in private and bought the domain without going to GF at all
21:49:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> I cant donate 20$ and then expect core to merge a pr because "thats what im paying for"
21:49:51 <BusyBoredom[m]> We merge CCS proposals that are inefficient all the time because the donors ultimately decide if it's worthwhile, not just Luigi. In this case the donor did things a little backwards, but the intent seems the same to me and I don't see why we should treat it any differently.
21:49:51 <BusyBoredom[m]> I agree that the optimal use of the money isn't to buy a domain, but I think the moral choice is pretty clear.
21:50:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> There is no reason to rush to buy monero.com
21:51:30 <jwinterm[m]> Plot twist: Luigi donated the money and he gets to decide what to spend it on anyway
21:51:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> Which is dangerous legal precedent ^
21:53:25 <BusyBoredom[m]> Somebody thought it was worth enough to drop $400k on it. Personally, I think it'd help with onboarding new users who may not find the current website so easily. So there's definitely good reasons to but it (although of course I do agree, I don't personally think it's worth $400k).
21:53:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monero.com directs users to getmonero.org via a banner
21:55:01 <BusyBoredom[m]> If it were free, wouldn't you want it to do a 308 permanent redirect?
21:55:03 <kinghat[m]> jwinterm[m]: double plot twist: cake donated the xmr to buy it off themselves.
21:55:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> BusyBoredom[m]: Its not free. Its 400k
21:55:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> Thats the difference 
21:55:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monero.com wasnt dropped in our lap, 400k was
21:56:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> And spending 400k on monero.com is retarded unless youre holding at least 10x that and can secure your network
21:57:05 <BusyBoredom[m]> I see what you're saying from a practical standpoint and I agree with it. From a moral standpoint though, I think we should follow through with what the donor obviously intended. 
21:57:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> If gf was 10k and someone donated 400k, should we spend 400k on a domain?
21:57:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> Leaving us with 10k?
21:57:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> + monero.com and good feels
21:58:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its a terrible decision.
21:58:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> We dont have enough money to buy Lambos just because someoen offered 
21:58:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> Foundation first 
21:58:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> Especially if vik is willing to squat monero.com for as long as necessary
21:59:21 <afungible[m]> > <@busyboredom:monero.social> I'm late to the party, but my two piconeros are that we should buy the domain with the donated money. The intent was clear. If the donor had done this through a CCS proposal or similar, we wouldn't be debating it.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/c6b78b6159711409904def9d6a16803608e91f95)
22:00:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> ^ much better said than what I spit out
22:00:14 <BusyBoredom[m]> > If gf was 10k and someone donated 400k, should we spend 400k on a domain?
22:00:14 <BusyBoredom[m]> Honestly, yeah I think that would be the right call. The donor messed up by donating to the GF instead of buying it himself, but I don't think it's right for us to take advantage of his mistake.
22:00:49 <BusyBoredom[m]> Alright I can get behind the potential legal issues, that would change my mind on this.
22:01:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> Id reluctantly return the funds. If the donor wasnt ok with putting it to better use and putting the domain purchase on that backburner, id question motives and prefer they go the ccs route.
22:01:52 <midipoet> Why can't GF offer to pay for the monero.com domain over a ten year period. 
22:02:23 <kinghat[m]> its funny to me that people can be so passionate about money that isnt theirs. its like saying opensourcerers are working on the wrong things.
22:02:38 <BusyBoredom[m]> Sure, returning the funds would be better in my eyes than using the money for something the donor didn't intend.
22:02:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> BusyBoredom[m]: I would ask the donor..
22:03:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> And ideally the donor, who has money, knows a bad deal when they see one
22:03:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> And or a mistake 
22:04:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> Wrong way to go about it and if that money was available to monero, "wouldnt you be so kind as to let us use this to further the codebase?"
22:04:21 <BusyBoredom[m]> ^ Probably the best solution, I like that.
22:04:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> And vik need to be involved in any of this combos 
22:06:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> Imagine waking up to find out "im selling my website and rebranding today".
22:06:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> Thats now how the world works 
22:06:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> Not*
22:07:15 <afungible[m]> Perhaps, in the spirit of it all.. I know some may not like this. Provide an open call to the donor to create a CCS if his/her intent was purchase of the domain (return the funds, n ask 'em to donate it correctly). Coz purchase of domain by donating to GF is likely a no-go (due to potential legal hoolahoops & GF cannot be requested/commanded to exercise an intent of an unknown (good or bad) actor).
22:11:47 <midipoet> Unless the doner wishes the community to decide on how to spend the GF funds, now that it has the extra funds required for the domain purchase.
22:12:07 <midipoet> *donor
22:12:25 <gonbatfire[m]> <BusyBoredom[m]> "I see what you're saying from..." <- Who says the donor intended it for that purpose? The github comment is merely circumstantial 
22:12:43 <gonbatfire[m]> We can't know for sure unless the donor himself comes and provides proof of their transaction
22:13:02 <gonbatfire[m]> Otherwise there's nothing we can we sure of
22:13:14 <jwinterm[m]> it is kind of an interesting theoretical thing to go awry - re: this donation
22:13:33 <jwinterm[m]> I have tried to pin down CCS/GF people as to what their legal organizational structure is in the past
22:13:47 <jwinterm[m]> and they're like, "we're just some bros holding a lot of money and deciding how to spend it"
22:13:48 <jwinterm[m]> more or less
22:14:13 <jwinterm[m]> so I guess if donor gets pissed their options are basically to directly sue some combination of luigi, bf, others
22:14:17 <jwinterm[m]> 🤷‍♀️
22:15:04 <afungible[m]> Plot twist. vik (Cake): donated to GF so that Core can buy it back from him. Can be a good plot to a Monero movie.
22:15:45 <gonbatfire[m]> Imagine someone donated that for whatever other reason, and because of a circumstantial github comment the money isn't treated the way GF states, ending up in a straight scam 
22:15:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> Would make more sense for vik to gift it to monero, for positive pr. But thats not happening
22:15:59 <gonbatfire[m]> We just can't make assumptions like that, no matter how likely they seem to us
22:16:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> Vik isnt as generous as this donorn
22:16:26 <r4v3r23[m]> theres no profit in donating
22:17:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> And a 400k loss to write to explain to your company 
22:17:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> s/write to//
22:22:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> <r4v3r23[m]> "theres no profit in donating" <- There can be if you donate to yourself to hide the source of your funds (to avoid paying taxes on them  as an example)
22:23:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> The single donor with a purpose narrative USBA dangerous one
22:35:43 <luigi1111> Ccs gf people don't like to be pinned down jwinterm 
22:37:43 <jwinterm[m]> I know I tried
22:38:14 <jwinterm[m]> if your wife leaves you, it's probably because she is ccs gf person
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22:49:46 <Andersonwatts[m]>  ‪+1 (559) 666‑3967‬ 
22:49:46 <Andersonwatts[m]> https://t.me/+JVp6bEZDk6o1NDA0
22:50:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> We found the donor ^ 
22:55:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> Banhammer: 
23:06:57 <tiny_voice1563[m> Opened this up to find out we are still talking about spending unholy amounts of money on a domain that’s not even for sale. Cool. Cake Labs bought it fair and square and, quite frankly, given how pro-community that company is, I am perfectly happy with them owning the domain. Heck they didn’t have to but the banner up but did anyway. As far as I’m concerned they’re using it for a great purpose and keeping the domain
23:06:57 <tiny_voice1563[m> from malicious actors. Not that any of our opinions matter because again, they bought it fair and square. It’s theirs.
23:15:35 <aremor[m]> <tiny_voice1563[m> "Opened this up to find out we..." <- It is for sale. Cake said they’d sell it to the community if the community wants it 
23:24:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> <aremor[m]> "It is for sale. Cake said they’d..." <- Its not "for sale"
23:24:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its being used in product 
23:24:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> Production*
23:24:56 <aremor[m]> They said they would sell it. Period.  It’s for sale
23:25:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> Not black and white 
23:25:13 <aremor[m]> Unless they contradict themselves
23:25:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> Offering to sell it means they have given a price and are wiling to transfer the domain as soon as said price is met 
23:25:43 <aremor[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Obviously 
23:27:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> And? Has cake said "come up with 2500xmr and its yours"? No
23:27:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> That isnt the offer on the table 
23:27:27 <aremor[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Did you read the issue? Yes they said this 
23:27:36 <aremor[m]> $400k
23:27:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> The offer is to hold monero.com in good faith and be willing to sell it to core should core want to buy it at cost
23:28:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yes I read the issue, i also commented on the issue 
23:28:38 <aremor[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: “At cost” is $400k. Where is the confusion?
23:28:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> At cost isnt 400k
23:31:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> If I buy a house for 20k and sell it to you at cost, its a fantasy to think I only paid 20k
23:31:55 <vikCake[m]> <r4v3r23[m]> "theres no profit in donating" <- We donate regularly.  
23:32:19 <aremor[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: It was either on this channel or on the issue where a core member stated that the total fees all added up to $400k 
23:32:26 <vikCake[m]> * donate regularly.  So screw off. 
23:32:58 <afungible[m]> <aremor[m]> "Did you read the issue? Yes they..." <- It is a conjecture.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/1a168621a59f51eb34ca30157033bd73880f8f58)
23:33:16 <vikCake[m]> <r4v3r23[m]> "theres no profit in donating" <- We donate regularly.  So screw off. 
23:34:22 <vikCake[m]> (That comment is not to the general community.  It’s a reply to one person.)
23:35:53 <aremor[m]> aremor[m]: The original estimate was $316,000 and some change but fees were added 
23:36:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> afungible:  right. And nothing can force cake to sell. Not now or in the future. Especially not a hostile takeover 
23:36:17 <aremor[m]> vik (Cake): still willing to sell at about $400k?
23:36:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> Call it 4million since its not in good faith 
23:36:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> Come back when its a peacefully transition 
23:37:13 <vikCake[m]> aremor[m]: I think it’s silly for the GF to spend so much on a silly website.  It does nothing for monero. 
23:37:47 <vikCake[m]> Funds could be used for research and accelerating monero development
23:38:14 <vikCake[m]> But I’m open to talking to core team.
23:38:28 <vikCake[m]> Silly domain i mean.
23:38:49 <aremor[m]> I can speak for myself, as a software engineer, and technologist for the past 25 years, even I find it confusing at times finding the official reference software for bitcoin and monero.  The domains are convoluted.  And having canonical domains for either project removes that confusion drastically.
23:39:14 <vikCake[m]> It’s funny that no one wanted that domain when it was for sale for many many years.
23:40:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> Just be happy exodus doesnt own it
23:40:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or the fbi
23:40:51 <aremor[m]> vikCake[m]: Only speaking for myself again, I’m very new here; I didn’t know it was for sale 
23:41:08 <vikCake[m]> The official monero website as someone suggested should be monero.org or moneroproject.org
23:41:28 <vikCake[m]> I think we take that $400k donation and try to buy monero.org
23:41:44 <aremor[m]> vikCake[m]: Technically true but we know in reality that a .com will always reign supreme 
23:41:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> Wheres the fuss over the other domains
23:41:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monero.social etc
23:41:56 <vikCake[m]> Yep.
23:42:28 * xmrack[m] uploaded an image: (14KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/EbkPrUSWpHemERlQUmupBAUI/image.png >
23:43:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> Anyway, point is cake is willing to put it in the hands of monero-project
23:43:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> but to have to do it on the drop of a dime because of a surprise donor is bullshit business 
23:43:16 <aremor[m]> xmrack[m]: Why would anyone go to this domain? 
23:44:18 <aremor[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Anyway, point is cake is willing to put it in the hands of monero-project
23:44:18 <aremor[m]> > but to have to do it on the drop of a dime because of a surprise donor is bullshit business 
23:44:18 <aremor[m]> It’s not a “have to” because there’s no law governing that.  It’s still 100% in their control.  Thing is, he seems to be willing. 
23:44:31 <afungible[m]> And imo. one cannot force anyone to sell a domain they legally purchased. In all fairness, they did their part based on community's feedback recently. However, if Core wishes to, it's between them & Cake to come to an agreement about the domain purchase. 
23:44:31 <afungible[m]> And afaik. they do regular contribution towards Monero CCS. So, I think we should give them the respect they deserve, if not more.
23:44:35 <vikCake[m]> vikCake[m]: What about this? 
23:45:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> ^ xmrack: 
23:46:16 <gonbatfire[m]> I'd shoot myself if I saw my 300k donation spent on a f*cking domain
23:46:38 <vikCake[m]> Where does it end? Will people be forced to give up any domain with the word monero ?
23:46:38 <gonbatfire[m]> Spend 5% of it to get Haveno launched tomorrow or something
23:47:03 <aremor[m]> vikCake[m]: I see your logic, but as I said before, a .com is just the de facto domain the average human will go to. No other TLD is comparable 
23:47:43 <vikCake[m]> aremor[m]: Not for crypto 
23:47:52 <aremor[m]> gonbatfire[m]: Not if that was your intended purpose 
23:48:17 <aremor[m]> vikCake[m]: Explain where the “force” is 
23:49:06 <vikCake[m]> aremor[m]: Ok “suggestion” “pressure” from our community 
23:49:34 <vikCake[m]> Anyway, I’ve had a few glasses of wine.  Remember kids.. never drink and text
23:49:58 <aremor[m]> vikCake[m]: I understand 
23:50:56 <midipoet> vikCake[m]: would you be willing to allow GF to pay for the domain in installments over a medium (5-10 year) term?
23:52:04 <vikCake[m]> midipoet: Why the desperate desire to want it now after so many years?
23:52:14 <vikCake[m]> But yes I’m open to all
23:52:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> Business decisions arent made so vaguely 
23:54:00 <aremor[m]> ThorChain le Serai even…. But the way XMR works someone would have to publish a CCS that they’re willing to work on and just hasn’t happened…
23:54:16 <aremor[m]> s/le/or/
23:55:06 <midipoet> vikCake[m]: I have no desperate desire personally, I am just wondering whether there is a deal that can be made
23:55:20 <aremor[m]> <gonbatfire[m]> "Spend 5% of it to get Haveno..." <- ThorChain or Serai even…. But the way XMR works someone would have to publish a CCS that they’re willing to work on and just hasn’t happened…
23:55:53 * ofrnxmr[m] uploaded an image: (1377KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/monero.social/CodQJDSkxDtuVobaTFpnZgOr/Imagepipe_461.jpg >
23:55:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> ^ found a pic of vik trying to sell monero.com for 8billion
23:56:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> vik (Cake): 
23:56:31 <aremor[m]> vikCake[m]: I think you’re being extremely gracious about this 
23:56:47 <gonbatfire[m]> No one of these domains are going to matter when we get banned from the clearnet LOL
23:56:59 <gonbatfire[m]> s/No/None/, s/one//
23:57:38 <vikCake[m]> And by the way, the core team is very satisfied with the redirect link we put at the top
23:57:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> gonbatfire:  how often do  have 400k to blow on an nft?! YOLO
23:59:32 <aremor[m]> vikCake[m]: But Monero is not centralized right…. Seems it should be a community conversation