00:44:52 <KNNY[m]> Gm
01:42:45 <Rucknium[m]> I think MAGIC can buy gold. Not sure about custody issues though.
01:55:52 <Rucknium[m]> It also can accept gifts of oil and gas rights.
01:56:01 <Rucknium[m]> If anyone happens to have any of those to give.
02:02:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> TIL. Thanks Ruck
02:29:14 <nikg83[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "The devs are working for xmr..." <- No, seems he hired devs for ui to be paid in usd not xmr 
02:31:30 <nikg83[m]> <nioc> "it always comes..." <- Has it ? 
02:33:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> "> <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> ErCiccione @erciccione:haveno.network: do _they_ have a preferred stablecoin?
02:33:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> It's irrelevant. They would get paid in xmr. Stablecoins are just the way to protect form fluctuation"
02:33:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> nikg83: 
05:50:44 <NorrinRadd> anyone know of any meetups in africa that aren't "south africa"? 
05:50:57 <NorrinRadd> fluffypony ? 
05:51:14 <NorrinRadd> i'm in west africa is why i'm asking 
06:07:31 <NorrinRadd> diff topic: the attack on the tornado cash developers has been a big topic lately.  
06:07:53 <NorrinRadd> I think people would do well to understand this guide inside and out if they want to protect themselves: https://anonymousplanet.org/guide.html
06:51:19 <fluffypony> NorrinRadd: check on meetup.com?
06:51:24 <fluffypony> if there isn't one then you need to start oine
07:48:04 <plowsof> If haveno deposit 420.69 Moneros into kraken and the funds are withheld / flagged as suspicious until kyc / source of the funds is provided , and they dont accept "anonymous people on the internet gave us it" then what? 
08:03:23 <plowsof> There was no issue with the initial payout / other ccs payments so i retract this worry (consider it as fud to promote magic)
08:06:30 <r4v3r23[m]> Haveno needs to release the project with the Bisq UI
08:06:41 <r4v3r23[m]> and get paid according to the terms of the CCS
08:06:46 <r4v3r23[m]> no more of this nonsense
08:53:31 <afungible[m]> <r4v3r23[m]> "Haveno needs to release the..." <- Where do you read this?
09:15:35 * cognitive_concep uploaded an image: (86KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/MBqvVFYFbHbavUaOxFdbAfnT/image0.jpg >
11:40:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> <afungible[m]> "Where do you read this?" <- Haveno has teased releasing using the bisq ui since they couldn't continue paying the front end devs... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/02e12abe830caa818aa7ca1e1895f8fe69e08c63)
11:46:50 <afungible[m]> Don't know wat to say. Its all about trust factor at the end of the day. Haveno has been promoted as next best thing since day 1, bt I haven't seen a working product as yet.
11:46:50 <afungible[m]> I'd even requested them to put out a simple demo video of latest UI et.al, that which I haven't seen yet. 
11:49:31 <afungible[m]> Don't know wat to say. Its all about trust factor at the end of the day. Haveno has been promoted as next best thing since day 1, bt I haven't seen a working product as yet.
11:49:31 <afungible[m]> I'd even requested them to put out a simple demo video of latest UI & its operation, that which I haven't seen yet. 
11:49:31 <afungible[m]> Maybe I'm missing something & the work indeed is too complex that it need lot of time & devs.
11:50:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> To me, im willing to admit when im wrong
11:50:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> Erciccione dodges questions, lies and misleads, or just manipulates you into thinking 2+2=5 
11:51:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> Just look at his accounting for milestone 0
11:51:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> He says im in bad faith for asking questions, but he fumbled the bag and acts like im the bad guy for noticing 
11:52:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monerobull noticed,  plenty of traders did
11:53:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> Says haveno isnt for profit and in the same sentence he says 50% of revenue is shared (I wonder what revenue is, perhaps its debt 🥲). The the next message he posts an infograohic showing funds going to haveno core
11:54:26 <monerobull[m]> What did I do?
11:55:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> Remember when haveno was paid out, and then xmr rallied to 280
11:55:53 <LyzaL> revenue != profit
11:56:08 <LyzaL> don't have much of a horse in this race myself, js
11:56:08 <nioc> maybe it's time to go outside and get some fresh air 
11:57:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> LyzaL: Revenue is the money generated from normal business operations, calculated as the average sales price times the number of units sold. It is the top line (or gross income) figure from which costs are subtracted to determine net income.
11:58:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> Erciccione is using that 50% of revenue = profit 
11:58:01 <LyzaL> thanks for explaining what I just said ig
11:58:07 <LyzaL> no wait
11:58:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> He cant give 50% of gross 
11:58:10 <LyzaL> wtf
11:58:31 <LyzaL> revenue - expenses = profit. if expenses >= revenue then no profit
11:58:43 <LyzaL> this isn't even business 101 stuff come on
11:58:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> He can only give 50% of profit. So the statement "we arent for profit" = ????
11:59:03 <LyzaL> 50% of revenue, which is not profit
12:00:04 <LyzaL> I mean it might be profit, Idk, but you're not really making the case here
12:00:17 <LyzaL> you're just using the terms interchangably
12:00:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> Im not playing word games, im saying etcicicone is.
12:00:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> He's calling me a liar for saying haveno is for profit 
12:01:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> IM not, he is
12:02:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> > - No. Haveno is not a for profit venture. Sharing 50% of the revenue with the community and not receive any funds directly from the platform should give a hint of that
12:02:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> This statement ^
12:03:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> Which was followed up with an infographic showing rewards going to haveno core 
12:03:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> But "no profit" 🤷‍♂️
12:05:36 <nioc> it is common for entities to be set up in a convoluted way to deal with laws and to limit their exposure to those laws 
12:05:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> <monerobull[m]> "#ErCiccioneGambledCCSMoney" <- monerobull @monerobull:matrix.org:  haha
12:06:47 <DanIsnotthemanBr> So 50% of net profit went to the community where did the other 50% go?
12:07:25 <monerobull[m]> if i understand corretly, engine council
12:07:35 <monerobull[m]> and those guys decide where it goes next
12:08:24 * ofrnxmr[m] uploaded an image: (64KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/monero.social/UBojmMsiunBrTMXkPDBOVqCE/haveno.png >
12:08:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> Heres the infographic @erciccione shared in #haveno:haveno.network 
12:08:38 <LyzaL> 50% of revenue not profit holy shit you peopl;e are dumb
12:09:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> So haveno is giving 50% of gross income ? 
12:09:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> LyzaL: 
12:09:48 <LyzaL> I'm merely trying to explain that they're different things
12:10:03 <LyzaL> I've seen the graphic I have no idea what you people are crying about
12:10:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> I know they are different things
12:10:58 <LyzaL> "fees paid by users" sounds like revenue to me
12:11:31 <LyzaL> and is there an issue with the council or? y'all making it sound like Eric is personally pocketing 50%
12:11:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> No. You've got IR backwards
12:11:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> I simply said haveno is for profit 
12:12:01 <LyzaL> honestly this all seems like it's because a certain section of this community doesn't like his politics or style
12:12:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> And was met with "FUD FUD FUD, WE DONT MAKE ANY MONEY. IN FAXK, WE SHARE 50%"
12:12:34 <LyzaL> on what basis do you claim it's for profit
12:12:35 <ofrnxmr[m]> Has NOTHING to do with his personality 
12:12:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> And EVERYTJING to do with money and handling of the money 
12:12:45 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Lol
12:13:08 <LyzaL> there's 1000% in every thread about Haveno a bunch of idiots calling him a SJW or whatever it's pathetic
12:13:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> Hey, I dont care about nonsense 
12:14:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> Left, right or upside down, doesnt matter who you are. I care about doing good business
12:14:32 <LyzaL> all I'm saying is the dude seems to get a lot more scrutiny than many --- yes obviously there have been disappointing things but y'all acting like the guy's a scammer and I just don
12:14:36 <LyzaL> 'tdon't see it
12:14:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> Im not in here calling him xyz or ABC, im simply questioning the receive price of milestone 0 vs the avg sell price 
12:14:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> Do the math 
12:15:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> Im not calling him a scammer. Im saying I dont have any confidence in his money handling abilities
12:15:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> .. based off of milestone 0
12:16:05 <LyzaL> alright
12:16:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> Not based off of some sjw nonsense
12:33:30 <aremor[m]> > <@afungible:monero.social> Don't know wat to say. Its all about trust factor at the end of the day. Haveno has been promoted as next best thing since day 1, bt I haven't seen a working product as yet.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/8da583f6ee6062cd8753ed04390f113a3731e942)
12:34:25 <aremor[m]> > <@afungible:monero.social> Don't know wat to say. Its all about trust factor at the end of the day. Haveno has been promoted as next best thing since day 1, bt I haven't seen a working product as yet.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/3ea6af2f0183a974f23228949ab8ea07f98eb0e2)
12:37:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> Proposal: 755 xmr or 154k... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/a88cb8bd60c108bd759653b92350c334293a47f7)
12:37:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> LyzaL: 
12:39:40 <aremor[m]> <LyzaL> "honestly this all seems like it..." <- What politics?
12:40:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> Thats ~30450 requested, 37000 in their possession.. held thru dip, resulting in "blame the market"
12:42:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> And this is specifically milestone 0. Of course the value of the other milestones cant be havenos fault. But if you cant handle 151, why run run around talking about how good your rep is and how much people trust you. This is business, not a pr campaign for damage control
12:43:31 <LyzaL> I don't think many people disagree that all should have been done differently
12:45:15 <LyzaL> if anything I would say that we probably shouldn't grant any CCS to an orgaNIZATION THAT'S NOT DOING THE WORK THEMSELVES
12:45:19 <LyzaL> my bad caps lock
12:45:36 <LyzaL> but we effectively paid someone to pay someone to do the work -- that was shortsighted
12:45:58 <LyzaL> since the GUI stuff was all contracted out to people who expected USD and not XMR
12:46:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> And its still shortsighted ^ 
12:47:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> Paying haveno in full in the new proposal, so they can convert to a stable and then pay devs at the right time.
12:49:12 <LyzaL> bluh I'll have to read it
12:49:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> Heres how I see it.... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/bee4500666831ae2a3e3cc535cb26b60f364a3b0)
12:49:37 <LyzaL> XMR has been more stable than the rest of the market, this shouldn't even be an issue. it can't always be bull season damn
12:50:34 <LyzaL> I haven't read the new proposal yet I kinda forgot about it I'll have to catch up --- are the (potential) devs noit directly participating in the discussion?
12:50:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> Not at all
12:51:07 <LyzaL> I'd like to see it more like... the GUI devs are opening a CCS and Eric can help them with it. my 2c. otherwise yeah it's kind of the same mistake over again it sounds like
12:52:43 <selsta> it's difficult enough to find devs, have fun finding devs that also have to write CCS proposals when they aren't even involved with monero lol
12:56:57 <LyzaL> I get that I was serious about Eric helping probably writing it or whatever, I just would rather have them involved and held accountable directly I guess? Or they can go another funding route imo
12:57:23 <LyzaL> I remember Eric being very confident they could get investor money and didn't need the community
12:57:49 <LyzaL> (also payouts directly to devs, shrug)
17:33:42 <KNNY[m]> <LyzaL> "XMR has been more stable than..." <- I like bear markets, allows me time to chill 
17:34:15 <KNNY[m]> I see people scrambling around to get 1 or 2% here and there and I'm just chilling waiting 
17:34:47 <KNNY[m]> my conscious peace isnt worth 2%
17:35:12 <KNNY[m]> * breaking my conscious