00:37:38 <jeffro256[m]> Howdy y'all, I posted a dev update about my work at https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/319
01:05:16 <plowsof> serde
01:06:57 <jeffro256[m]> dumb name srry
01:08:02 <plowsof> surrang serea serai surde 
01:11:45 <jeffro256[m]> sounds like an MF doom lyric lol
01:11:59 <jeffro256[m]> Did you want to know anything about it?
01:13:04 <plowsof> wait, i get it, "Deserialization/serialization" ser-de xD
01:13:20 <jeffro256[m]> I copied it from serde.rs 
01:13:44 <jeffro256[m]> I like it better than deser
01:14:15 <jeffro256[m]> sare-day also sounds fancier
01:18:44 <plowsof> true, so, vtnerd has his own version "his is more performant and makes smaller binaries." -> have you helped with his PR or been brainstorming ideas off of each other? we're not duplicating effort needlessly ~ with 2 huge PR's that need to be reviewed at the end of it? but it will help you with one of your goals (5)
01:25:48 <plowsof> im seeing 1 month of work, that is going to "help" with 1 goal (which you have 11) - are there enough hours to tackle the rest in 2 months?
01:28:40 <jeffro256[m]> I duplicated a lot of effort, more than I intended to, to be honest. However, recently (like 2 weeks) ago we collaborating more. I'm honestly leaning towards his "pull" design vs my "push" design, even if mine is slightly more flexible
01:29:48 <jeffro256[m]> He has worked harder on the details like which binary code goes into which translation units, whereas mine is a little less rigid and easier to use IMO
01:30:55 <jeffro256[m]> There def won't be 2 to review, we're going to go one or the other. I don't really care if it's mine as long as it gets done. I can offer good aspects to his even if it doesn't get merged, it's not necessarily 1 or the other
01:31:41 <jeffro256[m]> As for the rest of the goals, I think I can reasonably do 1, 2, 3, & 4 in the next two months 
01:32:28 <jeffro256[m]> Well #1 is still up for debate if it's the best way to go about things, but work is definitely needed there
01:33:58 <jeffro256[m]> wallet2 already has a pretty large dependency on p2p, which selsta wants to get rid of, but I think in this instance it could be good for any wallet to atleast have an extremely rudimentary knowledge of information about recent blocks, if no other reason than not making bad fee choices 
01:34:15 <jeffro256[m]> (in a way which doesn't require trust)
01:35:10 <selsta> but that seems to just duplicate daemon functionality to the wallet?
01:35:20 <selsta> connecting to multiple remote nodes sounds better
01:35:26 <jeffro256[m]> Yes, which is the issue 
01:36:17 <jeffro256[m]> Community nodes in the long run are a weak solution
01:37:09 <jeffro256[m]> Connecting to multiple nodes is better for decentralization, but is vunerable to sybil attcaks 
01:38:26 <selsta> we intentionally have the daemon and wallet split i'm quite sure code adding p2p functionality to the wallet won't get accepted
01:39:18 <jeffro256[m]> Sorry, when I meant dependency, I mostly meant like service dependency, not code dependecy 
01:40:00 <jeffro256[m]> wallet2 is already complicated and messy, adding p2p right into its code would make it completely unmaintainable 
01:42:52 <selsta> maybe i don't understand your idea
01:44:12 <selsta> but everyone who is afraid that community nodes get sybiled should run their own, or connect to a trusted node
01:44:17 <selsta> we don't want the wallet to start verifying blocks
01:44:25 <selsta> and connect to other nodes
01:44:37 <selsta> basically duplicating what a daemon does
01:48:22 <jeffro256[m]> Yeah for sure
01:49:09 <jeffro256[m]> Okay I said Sybil attack in reference to "connecting to multiple remote nodes sounds better"
01:49:29 <jeffro256[m]> Did you mean connect to multiple "community nodes" or random public nodes like we do now?
07:52:02 <vampyren[m]> Hi guys, i'm not sure this is the right forum to ask my question, if not please refer me to the right forum :)
07:52:02 <vampyren[m]> Any how , i was wondering if it would be possible to add some sort of self funding into Monero to support/secure future developments. I know right now its through donations and people contributing but what if the protocol could send a tiny amount of transaction fee into a treasury for funding? i am aware of the privacy aspect but that is another topic. Just wondering if this has been talked about and if that could be something
07:52:02 <vampyren[m]> the team could consider. Funding is an important aspect of any project as i see it so i like devs to get payed for the work they do and we keep the chain strong :)
08:00:54 <rbrunner> This is usually called a "dev tax". It has, in a way, discussed a lot, with looks at other coins that have that and arguing why that's nothing for Monero ...
08:18:16 <midipoet> A dev tax would be an explicit centralising force, and a central point of failure, in my opinion. 
08:34:38 <vampyren[m]> Of course that would be centralized as it has to go somewhere and someone has to distribute it. But there are also many solutions for that part, a DAO with voting maybe or even if someone can volunteer and that person is voted on yearly....
08:34:38 <vampyren[m]> Great point and a big topic in itself but i would say that is maybe the next step :) First would be to agree if we want Monero to be self-funded through fee , maybe mining fee, TX fee etc....
08:34:38 <vampyren[m]> And its great this has been talked about before. I am in other projects like pivx, firo for instance where there is a dev fund and voting. in Pivx case its a DAO where fun is voted on through masternode. So i have a little experience from that too. 
08:36:12 <vampyren[m]> s/And its great this has been talked about before. I am in other projects like pivx, firo for instance where there is a dev fund and voting. in Pivx case its a DAO where fun is voted on through masternode. So i have a little experience from that too./And its great this has been talked about before. I am in other projects like pivx, firo for instance where there is a dev fund and voting. in Pivx case its a DAO where ideas/devs are
08:36:12 <vampyren[m]> voted and funded through masternode votes. So i have a little experience from that too. /
08:45:04 <ajs_[m]> DAOs are considered unincorporated businesses in some jurisdictions, where all participants are at risk of being sued or prosecuted for the actions (or omissions) of the DAO
08:49:48 <bramburecek[m]> As it is now you can "vote" with your own funds by donating to ccs proposals, I feel like forcing tax on every transaction would do more harm than good
09:01:55 <rbrunner> DAO, masternodes, and such things complicate matters almost exponentially, compared with a simple currency like Monero. Complexity is the enemy of seurity.
09:02:41 <rbrunner> And to establish all those things, and keep them alive and secure, takes work, takes manpower. That then lacks in other places, e.g. when improving Monero.
09:24:36 <roooooocc[m]> What precision does monero have? 12 digits after the dot?
09:26:54 <rbrunner> Yes.
09:28:09 <rbrunner> More than BTC if I remember correctly. Ready for the big flippening, when XMR overtakes BTC and we need all those parts because 1 XMR = 10,000,000 USD :)
09:29:07 <roooooocc[m]> Tbh I don't need XMR to overtake BTC, I just need for it to be supported by payment gates more often
09:30:04 <rbrunner> A good start, yes.
09:30:23 <roooooocc[m]> I won'
09:30:41 <roooooocc[m]> I won't expect people to switch to monero until they care about their privacy and ditch big tech
09:45:13 <Siren[m]> Besides the privacy aspect people enjoy being able to successfully transfer funds in a short amount of time 
09:46:06 <Siren[m]> For example bank transfers can take up to a week. Those require literal humans to sit and verify and a bunch of paperwork depending on amounts. Even then they can sieze it for no god damn reason.
09:46:24 <Siren[m]> And monero takes ~2 min with super low fees regardless of amounts
09:46:50 <Siren[m]> And gov won't ask you what this transfer is
09:47:31 <Siren[m]> s/sieze/seize/
10:03:30 <monero_archiver[> Does anybody know how to receive the money collected from CCS donation?
10:05:05 <plowsof> pm luigi1111 , put the payout address in your proposal for some extra verification ahead of time 
10:12:20 <monero_archiver[> What is the relationship between luigi1111 and luigi1111w?
10:18:31 <sech1> they're twins
10:18:43 <monero_archiver[> Seriously?
10:18:53 <sech1> no, I mean twin accounts
10:18:55 <sech1> lol
10:19:15 <monero_archiver[> 😅
10:23:34 <aremor[m]> <midipoet> "A dev tax would be an explicit..." <- It also adds implication / liability. Look at mixers that have collected fees in the past. Look at the TC devs. If the service is private and devs are collecting fees, the law can view them as money transmitters and potentially money launderers. Doesn’t seem like a good idea to me. 
10:27:35 <rbrunner> Good point. I never thought so far ahead about this.
10:28:14 <monero_archiver[> I am thinking about a problem, where monero still does not have a name system?
10:29:13 <monero_archiver[> * name system like ens or namecoin?
10:30:24 <monero_archiver[> This is technically not difficult to setup, just create a new special kinds of transaction, which has no transaction in it but  a name and monero address
10:30:54 <aremor[m]> There’s an alias system monero_archiver 
10:31:32 <monero_archiver[> But it is not implemented on monero protocol level
10:33:27 <aremor[m]> sech1: https://simonwillison.net/2022/Aug/29/stable-diffusion/ — for the monero-pools chan.  I’m not in there… 
10:33:36 <monero_archiver[> If you can register a name on the blockchain, this will become much better, in terms of censorship resistance and convenience. Also making the official wallet to automatically detect and query these addresses will greatly increase the usability of monero 
10:36:29 <monero_archiver[> The key point is we can setup a mechanism works like domain name registars and sells monero domain names for a lot of $$$. I believe a lot of people will buy their own domain name for convenience. With these money we can do many things, from adding new fancy features to buying an island and declare monero as official currency
10:39:23 <aremor[m]> How does that make it a more official currency?
10:40:30 <aremor[m]> I don’t see how it affect censorship resistance either
10:41:12 <aremor[m]> I’m also not into a project like this collecting money, against because of liability issues
10:41:51 <rbrunner> I think that idea stumbles already on the first few meters out of the gate, because of difficulties to establish that entity that sells the names
10:42:15 <rbrunner> and get people to accept and respect it
10:43:00 <monero_archiver[> This is just like how the CCS and general funds works. You can make the money people used to register domain names goes directly into the general funds or any thing you want for the better future development 
10:43:39 <rbrunner> Yes, I understand that once that system runs it could generate money for the further development of Monero, but I claim you can't get it established
10:43:59 <monero_archiver[> No you do not need entities to sell it. Just add some features in the blockchain, for example for broadcasting a domain name with 7 letters you pay 10$ worth of xmr to a specified address for the name register to go through.
10:44:34 <rbrunner> You mean as part of consensus? A rule that the whole network with all its daemons upholds?
10:44:40 <monero_archiver[> Yes
10:45:29 <aremor[m]> Better start a lawyer fund at the same time
10:45:40 <rbrunner> I think that would probably result in the very first contested hardfork of Monero, with the danger of splitting the coin into two
10:47:10 <aremor[m]> Satoshi understood the importance of not accepting money for services.  So that the network is considered 100% free speech and nothing more. As soon as you bring money into the picture you’re liable
10:48:05 <plowsof> I'm getting too old, my back hurts, i just want Monero to continue being a private / sound form of digital money, no gimmicks, no contracts and oldschool pgp/web of trust 
10:48:42 <rbrunner> I don't believe that you are old, sorry. That's nothing more that a lame excuse :)
10:49:06 <aremor[m]> Let money be money. This isn’t ETH or Cardano or whatever other money making schemes
10:49:09 <rbrunner> But I support your drive for simplicity
10:49:51 <rbrunner> So no meme token on top of Monero? Think how many donations you could get from that, with a 50% dev tax.
10:50:19 <rbrunner> With MoneroChan of course.
10:51:44 <monero_archiver[> Basically this is how it works
10:51:44 <monero_archiver[> Users can broadcast a special kind of transaction, these transactions do not contain any real transaction, but it is a cleartext message with a domain name and monero address in it. For example myMoneroAddress.xmr points to a real monero address 4xxxxx.
10:51:44 <monero_archiver[> Users can broadcast anything they want, but it will only becomes effective if they follow the consensus. For example, If you want a very short domain like 42.xmr you need to add a proof that payed $10000 to a specified address. How much are these domains sold can be discussed and hardcoded into the consensus. All monerod nodes adds a rule to specially detect these kinds of records, and verify whether if it satisfied the
10:51:44 <monero_archiver[> payment. If it is determined valid, it is recorded into the blockchain. Then later a user wants to pay to 42.xmr his wallet connects to a node and queries the real address.
10:52:39 <monero_archiver[> These money automatically adds to the monero general fund, and can be used to pay CCS or hire full time devs and researchers.
10:53:34 <monero_archiver[> * real address. The payment is then finished, and the user do not need to remember some 40 words long address or use a address book.
10:55:32 <monero_archiver[> This is like collect donation from CCS fund raising, but it is done automatically by domain name registering
10:55:58 <rbrunner> I have no doubt that technically we could get something like that to work. I think your idea is sound in this respect. I just can't believe that this would find support.
10:56:34 <monero_archiver[> Also if we want to make this system fair, we can allow people to register longer domain names for free(for example longer than 10 words, or plus a little fee to prevent flooding)
10:57:45 <monero_archiver[> Why it does not find any support? I think the domain name system is quite critical. From my own point of view, if you believe me, these long and scary crypto addresses is the most difficult part for normal people to adopt crypto.
10:58:16 <plowsof> i rarely see people using OpenAlias addresses 
10:58:31 <monero_archiver[> And if you really hate the money collecting idea, you can make this feature completely free, and only collect a tiny fee to prevent blockchain ddos.
11:00:16 <plowsof> the idea of OpenAlias is amazing.. send any crypto to a domain name, and it finds its way to the users wallet
11:03:02 <monero_archiver[> Because it is not user friendly, it is a really long journey for someone not tech savvy to register a DNS record. People want something that easy to use. It should work like a social media register. When you creates an account in wallet, it asks you do you want your own domain own, if you want it sure pays 5$ to a address, and this is your monerodomain.xmr, and you can let people pay you with that name.
11:03:06 <monero_archiver[> * user friendly at all, it
11:04:15 <monero_archiver[> The point is everything should be made as simple as possible, users should be able to complete everything inside the wallet with some simple clicks
11:05:46 <monero_archiver[> * user friendly at all, it, * your monerodomain.xmr. If you do not want to pay that money,, * , then this your free loooooooongdomain.xmr, and you
11:05:48 <plowsof> we have not got passed the "why is my balance 0" problems yet 
11:07:11 <monero_archiver[> 😅
11:07:14 <monero_archiver[> That is true
11:09:38 <monero_archiver[> But there can also be a simple workround, we can keep domain name register in mempool for an amount of time for example like 72hr, during this time nodes still resolve addresses for these fresh names, but if no fee is paid after the limit these names are ditched
11:10:13 <monero_archiver[> Also there can be a even better idea, you can allow people to register names for free, but asks them to mine on p2p pool for a while
11:11:43 <monero_archiver[> The user can submit a proof that they have received a payment from p2p pool, and the domain name register will go through. This will divert much more fresh hash power to p2p pool and solve the monero hash power centraliztion problem
11:12:49 <monero_archiver[> Also makes the domain name registering one times a year, so if people want to keep their domain name, they need to mine on p2p pool once a year. With enough people using the domain name system, you can have people mine on p2p pool everyday
11:14:46 <monero_archiver[> Then you kinds of created a botnet that is mining monero, not for profit of some blackhat hackers, but for the greater good of the monero network security
11:14:53 <monero_archiver[> s/kinds/kind/
11:17:59 <monero_archiver[> If you really hate the money collection idea, the proof of work name register will be better
11:20:13 <monero_archiver[> Basically there is a lot of things can be done with this domain name scheme. You are trying to run a service, and the information you are providing is not important. The key is you can have many users, and with correct incentive rules set you can make your users do things.
11:20:50 <vampyren[m]> <aremor[m]> "It also adds implication..." <- rbrunner: aremor  sorry family duty called :) yes i see your point but it don't have to be complex. Say 5% of mining goes to a wallet.....i think there is now XMR-ETH connection so we could use smart contract for things...If we could have representative (even if they are anonymous but known people from the team or community) who could be incharge of the funds using multisig for
11:20:50 <vampyren[m]> approving developement ideas. Voting can also be done by these people...many question marks but with so many smart people i'm sure it can be solved. Not much has to change in Monero....most will be done outside of Monero using smart contract and maybe webside for ideas ...maybe something like say gofundme :) 
11:20:50 <vampyren[m]> Just throwing out ideas....
11:23:42 <vampyren[m]> And i agree monero should be top3 coin at this point. The liquidity would be great and more heavy investors could join....
11:24:18 <NorrinRadd> it might be better if the proposed money goes to miners instead of to the monero project.  miners have yet to be attacked legally yet.  and it might be easier to be anonymous as a miner 
11:25:54 <vampyren[m]> I don't see how this would affect things? monero TX is anonymous still ...
11:26:39 <NorrinRadd> the concern mentioned was for developers, not end users. 
11:28:39 <vampyren[m]> sorry dont see the issue...even devs are mostly anonymous and would receive funds with xmr so where is the concern? 
11:32:30 <Rucknium[m]> vampyren: The Monero community would never accept a dev tax frankly.
11:32:44 <Rucknium[m]> Use your energy on something else
11:33:34 <aremor[m]> vampyren[m]: Who can stay anonymous against the US government though? The benefit miners have is a smaller attack surface and a much larger crowd to hide in
11:34:56 <aremor[m]> If legality becomes an issue, lots of devs have doxxed themselves over the years. They’re vulnerable. Let’s not forget MSFT is the feds and has info
11:35:41 <roooooocc[m]> aremor[m]: Also how many 0 days the gov has...
11:35:53 <roooooocc[m]> Especially on mobile devices
11:56:05 <selsta> 03:49 <jeffro256[m]> Did you mean connect to multiple "community nodes" or random public nodes like we do now? <-- doesn't matter really, connecting to multiple community run nodes would make the chance of sybil attack really low
12:26:13 <chesterfield[m]> <monero_archiver[> "Because it is not user friendly,..." <- Aren’t you describing Yats?
12:26:27 <chesterfield[m]> They basically do everything you’re asking and they’re a one time payment
12:27:09 <chesterfield[m]> I think they’re planning on moving it to a decentralized protocol as well
12:46:42 <rbrunner> Only that any payments for Yats don't go to the Monero Core Team, to further Monero development, which the whole idea is about, as far as I understand
13:05:05 <vampyren[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "Use your energy on something..." <- Well funding development is a huge deal in my view. Hope others can see that too... dont u agree?
13:06:41 <vampyren[m]> <aremor[m]> "If legality becomes an issue..." <- I get that but if its on protocol level miners cant do anything and be liable right? or what am i missing? 
13:17:13 <nioc> Please pump price, it will help with funding 
13:17:20 <nioc> Thx :)
13:28:13 <bramburecek[m]> monero_archiver hey i just had a possibly dumb idea, how about archiving monero source code on the monero blockchain in the form of transaction extras?
13:32:39 <monero_archiver[> bramburecek[m]: Bad idea, blockchain storage is expensive, at least for those not optimized for storage.
13:38:29 <bramburecek[m]> xmrchain says that fee per byte is 0.00000002 unless i did the math wrong thats about 6 monero to store the whole repository
13:50:52 <vampyren[m]> Why not use IPFS, Arweave where data is forever ...even Akash has storage that is decentralized
14:05:45 <bramburecek[m]> there is no such thing as forever storage, all blockchain storage works as long as the coin i relevant enough for enyone to run a full node, and the beauty of storing on monero blockchain is that as long as monero is a thing the code would be there
14:08:55 <monero_archiver[> bramburecek[m]: Another problem is source code change over time, it is going to be complicated to maintain the synchronization. I do not think this is how you use a uxto based blockchain. Maybe ICP/Sia is more suitable for this job
14:09:20 <bramburecek[m]> monero_archiver[: fair point
14:11:16 <selsta> the monero source will not be lost
14:11:20 <selsta> a lot of devs have local copies
14:11:30 <selsta> github reactivated the repo for tornado cash
14:11:37 <selsta> we have other back methods etc
14:11:41 <selsta> backup*
14:21:07 <sech1> I have repo copies on 3 diifferent PCs in 2 different locations :D
14:21:22 <sech1> and that's only me
14:39:55 <plowsof> if your data doesnt exist in at least 3 places it doesn't exist at all - great advice that i never follow, but you should 
14:42:28 <sech1> right
14:42:40 <sech1> cloning the repo in 3rd location right now :D
14:49:41 <vampyren[m]> Yeah no code will be lost but there should be a place for people to collaborate so thats where AR and Akash come in
14:50:28 <plowsof> thats very smart of you, i think i'll do it tomorrow(tm) xD 
14:57:02 <vampyren[m]> <bramburecek[m]> "there is no such thing as..." <- Well thats what they claim..dont think it goes away with the coin either , remember reading a bit a long way back, have to revisit but this is what they say on https://www.arweave.org/
14:57:02 <vampyren[m]> Arweave is a new type of storage that backs data with sustainable and perpetual endowments, allowing users and developers to truly store data forever – for the very first time.
15:07:47 <nioc> forever is a long time
15:08:20 <nioc> I still have some 5.25" floppies 
15:11:06 <bramburecek[m]> > <@vampyren:matrix.org> Well thats what they claim..dont think it goes away with the coin either , remember reading a bit a long way back, have to revisit but this is what they say on https://www.arweave.org/
15:11:06 <bramburecek[m]> Arweave is a new type of storage that backs data with sustainable and perpetual endowments, allowing users and developers to truly store data forever – for the very first time.
15:11:06 <bramburecek[m]> i just read about "endownment" on their wiki and its just fancy tail emisssion, and at the end of the page they say that the data is just because they expected it to be moved somewhere else when their network dies
15:12:29 <bramburecek[m]> *...they say that the data is "permanent" just ...
15:33:07 <Rucknium[m]> vampyren: Yes, funding development is important, but not more important that keeping an 8-year-old promise not to have a dev tax.
15:35:26 <DiegoSalazar[m]> <monero_archiver[> "But it is not implemented on..." <- in my view, keeping the protocol level for protocol things (i.e. sending and receiving money) is the way to go. Build ecosystems around that.
15:37:04 <DiegoSalazar[m]> Things like OpenAlias allow us to build on other infrastructure and not get bogged down in maintenance and technical debt of many other features implemented into the protocol itself
15:40:18 <DiegoSalazar[m]> Speaking of Namecoin though, they just added some sort of privacy technology though, so I hear.
15:40:38 <DiegoSalazar[m]> NMC is a good project, and one of the few that actually deserves attention, but doesn't get it.
15:47:43 <nioc> DiegoSalazar[m]: any progress with the bridge? 
15:49:44 <DiegoSalazar[m]> None. I'll send another email and see if I can't track down the Matrix person responsible so I can reach out via other means.
15:50:00 <DiegoSalazar[m]> Email clearly isn't working.
15:50:00 <nioc> thx
17:11:28 <ArticMine[m]> <midipoet> "A dev tax would be an explicit..." <- ... and Monero would go from being one of the most regulatory compliant crypto currencies to having very serious regulatory compliance problems all over the world 
17:23:33 <vampyren[m]> > <@bramburecek:midov.pl> Arweave is a new type of storage that backs data with sustainable and perpetual endowments, allowing users and developers to truly store data forever – for the very first time.
17:23:33 <vampyren[m]> > 
17:23:33 <vampyren[m]> > i just read about "endownment" on their wiki and its just fancy tail emisssion, and at the end of the page they say that the data is just because they expected it to be moved somewhere else when their network dies
17:23:33 <vampyren[m]> Well this and many other solutions offer storage at the very least that is much harder to close compared to github or onedrive so we have many options, even if not permanent its good to have options :)
17:23:40 <aremor[m]> That’s what I was saying. It’s a legality issue
17:24:55 <aremor[m]> Donations are different. Donations are not quid pro quo. It’s not transactional so governments cannot assign liability.
17:27:25 <vampyren[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "vampyren: Yes, funding developme..." <- To be honest i dont think miners do it for getting rich. Monero mining is not "profitable" at least for me with a 5950x ....so if its even say 2% tax i dont think it would hurt them plus if they know it goes for a good cause like future of Monero i'm pretty sure they would not mind. For me i would be willing to offer even 50% ....i run half of my cores all the time and do it
17:27:25 <vampyren[m]> for support not getting payed 
18:50:10 <spackle_xmr[m]> Perhaps you should present this idea to Bitcoin.
19:27:33 <luigi1111w> luigi1111 is luigi, but luigi1111w is luigi
22:58:17 <vampyren[m]> <spackle_xmr[m]> "Perhaps you should present..." <- They too would benefit for sure but they have very rich people backing them already ...think if XMR was 19000 today and top3 coin.....
22:58:17 <vampyren[m]> Also i feel BTC maxis are extremely closed minded to be honest. Very hard censorship on their forums. Its like talking to a wall. For a project supporting decentralization and openness they are very close minded sadly. Tried a few times to bring up other ideas but was posts were taken down. 
23:05:01 <vampyren[m]> Also in many ways i see XMR superior to BTC, tail emission solve the problem when all BTC is mined for XMR....also privacy ofc is awesome. I dont want to send BTC to anyone since its so traceable. Also i hate that its now only minable with ASIC that i need to buy from China....XMR has allot of benefit ....and lastly love that i can connect ledger directly to the wallet
23:18:37 <deterred[m]> <vampyren[m]> "Also in many ways i see XMR..." <- Ledger is meh. Schematic or die. In that case Trezor is better.
23:19:14 <deterred[m]> * Ledger is meh. Schematics or die. In that case Trezor is better.
23:56:02 <vampyren[m]> <deterred[m]> "Ledger is meh. Schematic or die...." <- I got Trezor too but it supports to few apps natively but sure i like the design of Trezor more and would use it as my main if it had more apps on it.