00:30:22 <selsta> wait
00:30:26 <selsta> next year is already exit scam
00:38:51 <nioc> April
00:57:23 <plowsof> the next name of the gui will be https://nitter.net/fluffypony/status/923986313921081344
00:57:49 <plowsof> at some point there will be a vote lol
01:03:24 <nioc> "too many old people 30 year olds, in Monero"
01:03:27 <nioc> :D
01:28:02 <sgp[m]> <nioc> "not bridged get eh?" <- Matrix is completely ignoring my emails 😡
01:29:38 <nioc> Diego said that he would try something besides email but I don't remember what
01:38:25 <DiegoSalazar[m]> <sgp[m]> "Matrix is completely ignoring my..." <- same
01:40:20 <sgp[m]> New plan: I'll email them using the ENS paid support ticket. Someone remind me tomorrow pls
01:41:11 <selsta> ENS?
01:42:55 <DiegoSalazar[m]> EnerSys, 59.11 USD, down 1.44% today
01:42:57 <DiegoSalazar[m]> OR Ethereum Name Service
01:43:03 <DiegoSalazar[m]> but the former is more likely
01:48:14 <selsta> I'm just confused how that's related to Matrix
03:15:33 <sgp[m]> <selsta> "ENS?" <- Sorry, EMS. Element Matrix Services
05:49:21 <DanIsnotthemanBr> https://decrypt.co/111822/coin-center-sues-treasury-over-tornado-cash-ban
05:49:21 <DanIsnotthemanBr> They were talking about this on monerotalk couple months ago, they actually pressed the button now.
05:52:21 <NorrinRadd> sgp[m] i can see your messages fine, nioc, DiegoSalazar[m] 
13:32:11 <nioc> anhdres[m]: congrats https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/anhdres-monero-garden.html
13:42:32 <selsta> w0w
13:46:14 <rayatina[m]> Legalize nuclear bombs
13:46:47 <NorrinRadd> microsoft restored the accounts of the tornado cash devs that they had disabled?  and restored their other, unrelated repos? 
13:50:25 <rayatina[m]> It's from a song
13:51:31 <nioc> NorrinRadd: we were talking about the main monero channel, not this one
14:27:33 <plowsof> imagine if that 2500 xmr " to buy monero .com" lol was put into a special scheme to handle volatility for our developers under the CCS. If you elect to be apart of this scheme , lets say .. we will top up any losses to a maximum of 50%, BUT - if the price of Monero moons, the proposer only gets the xmr equivalent of the fiat requested come pay day. and those excess funds can be "donated to the general fund" as 'profits' (boring) or set
14:27:33 <plowsof> aside for some other proposal. Just an idea i've had 
14:58:10 <rayatina[m]> <plowsof> "imagine if that 2500 xmr " to..." <- Plowsof being a great mind in the monero community, as usual
15:00:46 <Rucknium[m]> Or, XMR futures contracts could be used for what they were originally intended for.
15:23:51 <dEBRUYNE> plowsof: Such a fund should be used to actually hedge, not reimburse losses
15:26:34 <nioc> Nioc Insurance Of Ccs
15:31:50 <plowsof> reimburse losses yes - but they don't get the benefit of any price increase. How would hedging work? (i think the idea with the least 'someone has to do something' would be feasible)
15:32:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> I still think devaluing xmr because of volitility is a bad idea 
15:32:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> XMR doesnt have a fluctuating supply 
15:32:20 <dEBRUYNE> plowsof: Let's say entity A raises 10 XMR for a proposal
15:32:33 <dEBRUYNE> Once it is fully funded, the funds goes short 10 XMR on a futures exchange
15:32:40 <dEBRUYNE> If the XMR price goes down, the fund profits on the short
15:32:54 <dEBRUYNE> The profits can then be used to reimburse the proposer with the loss
15:33:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> I think, if I ask for 10 xmr in a monero economy, what happens to price of the xurrenxy is irrellevent 
15:33:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> Usd isnt stable either
15:33:23 <plowsof> TIL - thank you dEBRUYNE 
15:33:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> So if the price of bread doubles but xmr price only goes up By 50%, should I also get free xmr? 
15:34:01 <plowsof> such a scheme would be 'opt in' of course , just a thought 
15:35:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> Insurance is insurance because you pay for it
15:35:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> If its opt in, the user should have to _pay_ any surplus into the insurance fund if they profit 
15:35:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> So if I get 50xmr and the price 10x, and I opt in, I have to give back 45 xmr (maths?)
15:35:40 <plowsof> the problem in Monero is - "Do you have an idea" -> Yes -> "Does someone have to do something in a timely fashion" -> Yes -> Think of another idea :P
15:36:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> The problem is using monero to get fiat 
15:36:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> Again, it works both ways 
15:36:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> Nobody complains when they profit 
15:36:49 <plowsof> if its opt in - they don't get any profit at all 
15:37:18 <plowsof> debruynes / ruckniums comments on futures / shorting 
15:37:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> And if you short the future and the price rallies?
15:37:50 <isthmus> If it's shorted by option, price rally no problem. If it's shorted by perpetual, can incur lost
15:38:02 <isthmus> s/lost/loss
15:38:05 <plowsof> my original idea was 'reimburse losses to a max of 50% - if monero moons you get your pay and we keep the profits
15:38:35 <isthmus> lol @nioc took me a minute to get the joke
15:38:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> plowsof: I dont see lossws
15:39:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> Haveno, for example. XMR value was above target when milestone 0 was paid
15:39:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> By the time milestone 0 was done, it was sold at a loss.
15:39:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> According to Plowsof theory, ericcione should be paying back, nor writing off losses
15:40:33 <plowsof> there would be no up front pay in this scheme ofcourse 
15:41:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> I think ccs needs no relation to fiat 
15:41:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> And if you Ned a fiat value you should use something else 
15:41:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> If you want to break your contract aka x amount of XMD for x amount of work, then you forfeit your ccs 
15:42:57 <isthmus> Hard to pay rent in Monero in my area so far :( Grocery store still not taking it either.
15:43:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> And that doesnt get better by dumping ccs xmr for fiat 
15:45:12 <isthmus> Complete decoupling of CCS payout from exchange rate can lead contributors to experience significant financial loss over the course of R & D due to reduced spending power of their income https://twitter.com/mitchellpkt0/status/1252720219644063745
15:45:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> I believe it ^, but thats because they plan to sell the xmr 
15:46:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> Might as well fundraise in usdc if they dont actually care to hold the xmr 
15:46:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> Also, I believe it ^ works both ways
15:47:00 <plowsof> you can fundraise usdc with MAGIC but its KYC 
15:47:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ever heard anyone complain during a bull run that they tripled their ccs by the time of payout? Lmao
15:48:22 <isthmus> If contributors MUST take CCS funds in XMR and are expected to not convert it to fiat, then the only people who can be Monero contributors are those with previous independent fiat wealth or a landlord + grocery store that accepts Monero??
15:48:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> No, they arent expected not to convert 
15:49:03 <ofrnxmr[m]> They are expected to do whatever they want 
15:49:37 <isthmus> 👍
15:50:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> And yes, must take funds in xmr.. at the preprescribed contracted amount
15:50:54 <plowsof> so the theoretical scheme would "steal" profits / not give them, but cover losses (this is the dumb way) - the correct solution proposed by Rucknium / debruyne may require "somebody to do something" 
15:51:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> So if you say 100 xmr or 14000. 14000 means nothing. Younger 100 xmr.
15:51:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> I dont see _anyone_ willing to give _back_ their xmr if price rallies 
15:51:35 <Rucknium[m]> It is a prerequisite that CCS proposers must suffer.
15:52:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or... get rich off of 😆
15:52:56 <Rucknium[m]> If hedged with a futures contract, the proposer would not have to give any XMR back. They just would get less (if XMR rallies) when the milestone is reached.
15:53:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> And... less = "sorry, we will stall and not complete work"
15:53:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> Im saying, KISS 
15:54:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> If my employer pays me 20 an hr
15:54:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> And price if gas doubles, do I get a raise? 
15:55:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> Is my employer going to trade futures for me? 
15:56:00 <Rucknium[m]> Yes. Cost of living adjustments are very common
15:56:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yeah.. 2.5% for a 40 realistic incease in cost of living
15:57:08 <Rucknium[m]> Just driving people toward MAGIC and getting KYC'ed.
15:57:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> Rucknium[m]: And thats because the business profits increased. 
15:57:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> Is ccs going to file taxes on the futures trading? Lollol
15:57:49 <Rucknium[m]> No. It would actually be best if the proposer does the futures trading
15:57:58 <Rucknium[m]> But they would have to understand the process
15:58:18 <isthmus> Actually that would be tricky, there are no futures platforms open to non-accredited investors in the US, for example
15:58:40 <Rucknium[m]> Agora Desk used to have a XMR futures contract IIRC
15:58:59 <isthmus> Oh nice, haven't heard of them
15:59:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> Localmonero
15:59:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> Same ppl
15:59:54 <plowsof> but its not realistic to pay up front to proposers and make them pinky promise they will hedge 
16:00:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> Nooe
16:00:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> But for some / repeat ccs peoole, i have np paying up front 
16:00:35 <plowsof> thats why i suggest a purpose for the 2500 xmr :( 
16:00:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> Like haveno
16:01:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> If he had all the money day 1, hed still be asking for more
16:01:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> Not our problem.
16:01:27 <plowsof> objection your honour here say speculation
16:01:33 <isthmus> sustained
16:01:49 <plowsof> xD
16:01:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> Milestone 0 was fumbled. Paid above value, sold below
16:02:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> Erciccione says im a liar but the dates and numbers are right there on his weird accounting 
16:03:20 <isthmus> @plowsof RE "but it's not realisti...c" < yea and now that you point that out I'm realizing it's kind of a big ask to have each individual contributor roll a hedge solution with complex financial derivatives to make sure their income doesn't lose spending power. 
16:03:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> #oversightcommittee
16:03:47 <isthmus> Like, the thought of having to touch futures just to make sure I can pay utilities is making me sweat a bit
16:03:58 <isthmus> I dunno how to do that kind of thing
16:04:29 <Rucknium[m]> I thought you did DeFi, isthmus :P
16:06:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> The easiest hedge solution? Dump it all if what you require is fiat.
16:06:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> Thats not for us to decide, thats for the proposer to ask in the proposal - immediate payout 
16:07:01 <isthmus> Yes, up front payout in XMR and let contributor set aside in fiat what they need to cover bills is the most straightforward solution
16:07:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> Example, I think the recent ccs for 1xmr for mirroring GitHub was paid out immediately.
16:07:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> Haveno knew from day 0 that they needed to bet on xmr staying above 203 in order to pay the devs 
16:11:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> In which case they should have requested all xmr be paid our immediately once the value is at or above 203.
16:11:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> But they did some extended milestone scheme and continued to work - forced to sell milestone 1 at a major loss to pay devs wages.
16:11:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> But again, no complaining from haveno when xmr went from 203-280 and they were well overfunded.
16:12:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> And the ccs* was well overfunded (haveno only had access to milestone 0)
16:56:56 <jozsef[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "Not mine ^ but working. I cant..." <- I think it is mine. But I'm not sure either. 😀 In any case, enjoy. It should also be aliased to sprout.i2p
17:01:12 <jozsef[m]> Yes, it is mine. Does that mean native i2p support is coming aoon to cake/monero.com? 👍😀
17:01:23 <jozsef[m]> s/aoon/soon/
20:29:27 <sgp[m]> <jozsef[m]> "Yes, it is mine. Does that..." <- We would need to support the new-ish --proxy feature I think. Should be doable :)