03:33:27 <evalda[m]> I have a silly question: when you receive monero and then spend it, is there any way for someone I paid XMR to find my receiving monero address?
03:33:27 <evalda[m]> To give more context, you buy BTC for fiat on KYC exchange. Then use one of the cryptoswapping services to exchange BTC to XMR. Let's assume the cryptoswap logs everything they possibility can. Then you spend XMR, is there any way to adversary to know who made the purchase?
03:34:12 <evalda[m]> Do you need to send XMR to a different wallet first or just spend from the same wallet you received monero from cryptoswap?
03:36:36 <nioc> there are no addresses on the blockchain, the swap service would have to coordinate with who you sent the xmr to
03:41:14 <nioc> maybe someone will tell me that I am wrong  :D
03:43:37 <nioc> AIUI it's not so much addresses that are tracked, rather it's outputs
03:56:41 <evalda[m]> Thanks! I am still confused... So basically my question is how to spend XMR anonymously after you received it from the cryptoswapping service
04:00:51 <nioc> you spend it?
04:01:05 <plowsof11> where are you spending the xmr from first? a non custodial wallet such as the Monero GUI?
04:01:53 <evalda[m]> plowsof11: Yes Monero GUI over Tor
04:02:48 <evalda[m]> nioc: No need to send XMR to another Monero wallet (that didn't touch the cryptoswapper) first?
04:03:52 <nioc> no but I do because it makes me feel better :D
04:03:56 <plowsof11> as nioc states above^ no addresses are on chain (only one time use ones called stealth addresses) if you want peace of mind you can churn once or twice. what does that mean> you can send your max balance to yourself (an address from your receive tab) if you do that once, that is 1 churn , your balance is then locked for 10 blocks and is now spendable glhf 
04:05:41 <plowsof11> if you wanna be fancy you can send yourself partial amounts of your balance e.g. if you have 1 xmr, you can send yourself 0.5 xmr one time , but its really not this complicated.. you can just spend it 
04:06:33 <evalda[m]> plowsof11: Nice! Thank you for the tip 🌷So without "churn" are there any privacy concerns with just spending it?
04:10:33 <plowsof11> im just a monero enjoyer, i spend without churning. research here is lacking .. i churn for convenience mainly 
04:12:25 <evalda[m]> Is there a convenience aspect to churning? Isn't it just extra effort, time, fees?
04:13:32 <nioc> no idea what he means by that 
04:14:17 <nioc> plowsof11: ^^ wut u mean?  lol
04:15:44 <plowsof11> to give myself more outputs aka 'coins' to spend 
04:15:59 <plowsof11> then i dont have to wait for my balance to become unlocked 
04:16:34 <plowsof11> if i have 1 xmr, and send myself 0.3 xmrs , in 10 blocks i have about 0.7 and 0.3 (xmr fees are below 1 cent) 
04:16:54 <c0mmando[m]> <evalda[m]> "Do you need to send XMR to a..." <- wouldn't use just create a new address for every swap transaction
04:16:59 <evalda[m]> plowsof11: Ah! Got it, thank you
04:18:05 <plowsof11> i buy a tin of cat food , the 0.3 xmr gets used, and i am sitll able to spend that 0.7 on something else while i wait 10 blocks (maybe a cat toy or sumthin)
04:19:08 <nioc> by churn you mean split outputs
04:20:08 <plowsof11> yes
04:20:12 <evalda[m]> c0mmando[m]: That's not my concern here, I only swap once per wallet. I was thinking more along the lines of swapper knows my receiving monero address and BTC sending address that leads to my identity... So spending XMR after receiving from swapper may have any privacy concerns? Assuming they all collide or monitored by same adversary
04:21:00 <c0mmando[m]> evalda[m]: i just generate a new sub address for every new swap 
04:21:03 <c0mmando[m]> no need for a new wallet
04:22:05 <c0mmando[m]> if you're swapping kyc'd btc to xmr then you're already losing the game
04:22:25 <evalda[m]> c0mmando[m]: Can you please elaborate?
04:23:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> Tldr: YOU elaborate 
04:23:13 <c0mmando[m]> if an adversary knows you've bought BTC and swapped to XMR then are you really looking to gain by using new XMR wallets?
04:23:25 <c0mmando[m]> * XMR then what are you
04:23:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> No
04:23:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> An entity knows the xmr outputs it was swapped to 
04:24:30 <evalda[m]> c0mmando[m]: My goal is to prevent them linking specific purchases to my identity. Not hiding the fact that I have XMR
04:24:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> Using btc for a private onramp a joke.
04:24:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> Its no different then buying xmr with the kyc 
04:25:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> evalda[m]: good lyck
04:25:48 <evalda[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Using btc for a private onramp a joke.
04:25:48 <evalda[m]> > Its no different then buying xmr with the kyc 
04:25:48 <evalda[m]> I use BTC in the process just because it's easier to buy in my situation, not trying to gain any privacy with BTC
04:26:15 <evalda[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Am I screwed? Please explain
04:26:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> Run your own btc nodes, hide your wallet transactions, use ip obfuscastion and FOSS wallets that dont call home with your device id
04:27:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> Then you'll still mess up and have the btc associaten with you, multiple times.
04:27:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> Instead of invizible, its like covering your eyes and saying "you cant see me"
04:29:12 <evalda[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: I use Monero GUI in Whonix (over Tor).
04:29:12 <evalda[m]> Why running my BTC nodes if I use bitcoin only as means to get monero and then spend XMR on anything I'd like to be private?
04:29:12 <evalda[m]> How to hide wallet transactions?
04:29:35 <evalda[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Then you'll still mess up and have the btc associaten with you, multiple times.
04:29:35 <evalda[m]> > 
04:29:35 <evalda[m]> > Instead of invizible, its like covering your eyes and saying "you cant see me"
04:29:35 <evalda[m]> What's a better way to buy things anonymously?
04:30:04 <ofrnxmr[m]> #monero:monero.social 
04:30:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://matrix.to/#/!WzzKmkfUkXPHFERgvm:matrix.org/$MIgwLCSDQSeG2R5nfHPAeL3emV9m0Nu4t6DaEl0_CuQ?via=monero.social&via=matrix.org&via=libera.chat
04:30:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> If you want to hide, use fiat and localmonero 
04:33:44 <evalda[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Thank you, and sorry if I posted all this in the wrong room
04:35:29 <ofrnxmr[m]> NP. Long weekend
16:49:25 <plowsof11> monerobull did you say you have issues with partial payments using monero-wp? https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/374#note_20744 
16:49:47 <monerobull[m]> Yes 
16:50:10 <monerobull[m]> You can pay multiple times to the same address 
16:50:17 <monerobull[m]> But people just won't lol
16:50:33 <plowsof11> ah the problem is the user 😆 ok
16:50:38 <monerobull[m]> Yeaj
16:50:54 <monerobull[m]> There as a guy who underpaid by half a cent
16:51:01 <monerobull[m]> And then paid the full amount+a few extra cent again
16:51:27 <monerobull[m]> I emailed them asking for a refund address but haven't heard back 😔
16:51:34 <plowsof11> they really wanted those stickers 
16:52:48 <plowsof11> next meeting is on the 25th https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/798 
16:53:52 <plowsof11> if you want to guess how many xmrs are overfunded from ccs proposals , answers on a postcard please (overfunded meaning donated after 100% goal is reached and perhaps not yet updated on site) 
17:00:04 <BusyBoredom[m]> monerobull does the monero-wp UI not update to show the amount still due? So like if 1 XMR is due and the user pays 0.99 XMR, does the UI not update to show the user has paid `0.99 XMR / 1 XMR` or similar? I'm trying to understand what could confuse a user into deliberately double-paying. 
17:00:39 <monerobull[m]> Uhm
17:00:41 <monerobull[m]> Not sure
17:00:58 <plowsof11> @monerobull fund a wallet with the amount and send it to them in the package on paper 
17:01:01 <BusyBoredom[m]> Guess I have to buy some stickers to find out lol
17:01:23 <monerobull[m]> plowsof11: I've already deleted their address 
17:01:40 <monerobull[m]> I can test it myself if you want to
17:02:04 <monerobull[m]> You also have to keep in mind that there's a 1 hour time period you can pay in 
17:02:24 <monerobull[m]> After that's over, the order goes to cancelled if not fully paid
17:04:16 <BusyBoredom[m]> Makes sense, AcceptXMR has a similar expiration mechanism (just specified in blocks instead of time).
17:05:25 <BusyBoredom[m]> If you get bored then yeah I'd love to know how the monero-wp UI reacts to partial payments. Otherwise I'll probs test it myself if I get time next weekend
17:06:23 <monerobull[m]> Takes like 5 minutes to test, will do it today 
17:14:28 * monerobull[m] uploaded an image: (39KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/uiDiIBvxfFBOmhvZiHIAepDE/grafik.png >
17:14:28 <monerobull[m]> -.-
17:14:37 <monerobull[m]> it updates live
17:14:43 <monerobull[m]> BusyBoredom: 
17:15:24 <monerobull[m]> and the QR code is one that auto-fills the required ammount 
17:16:27 <monerobull[m]> the only way to fuck this up is by putting the "pay to" address as exchange withdrawal or using a swapper like trocador without using a fixed rate
17:17:25 * monerobull[m] uploaded an image: (11KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/TTJpVGlDSxDTTvkjdNIJxKPx/grafik.png >
17:17:35 <monerobull[m]> even gives transaction id at the bottom
17:18:00 <monerobull[m]> height is N/A because the plugin is broken and adds one too many "/" in the xmrchain url
17:18:16 <BusyBoredom[m]> Huh, alright yeah monero-wp is doing the exact same thing in the UI that I am with AcceptXMR then. So this really is just users being users 😂
17:18:50 <BusyBoredom[m]> Bummer, I was hoping this would be UI weirdness that could be improved on
17:20:01 <BusyBoredom[m]> Thanks for testing 
17:24:40 <BusyBoredom[m]> It's even get the "Please pay the remaining amount" text at the top there, damn. No software survives contact with end users I guess. 
17:41:01 <Rucknium[m]> In addition to paying by swap services, users may have multiple wallets without one single wallet having enough to pay. Or a user may be caught in the ten block lock on spending new outputs.
17:50:00 <monerobull[m]> That's a mega edge case 
17:50:12 <BusyBoredom[m]> The part I wanted to understand was why users would elect to not send the remaining amount due in a second transaction. There's gotta be something here confusing them, but I don't see what it is
17:50:41 <monerobull[m]> Exchange withdrawals can take quite some time 
17:50:54 <monerobull[m]> Swapping too 
17:51:07 <monerobull[m]> Imagine you have BTC, send that to trocador 
17:51:16 <monerobull[m]> But for some reason don't pick payment mode
17:51:39 <monerobull[m]> Now you wait at least 20 minutes for BTC to confirm
17:51:51 <nioc> sorry, can't imagine having btc
17:52:31 <nioc> wants to buy monero stickers but only has btc  :D
17:54:48 <Rucknium[m]> Doing some research.... The U.S. Chamber of Commerce (largest business association in the USA) has an article about accepting cryptocurrency as payment: https://www.uschamber.com/co/run/finance/accepting-cryptocurrency-as-payment
17:54:57 <BusyBoredom[m]> Mmm fair, I've got tunnel vision on "user has XMR in cake wallet, why doesn't user send it?" but you're right that's probably not the case a lot of the time. 
17:55:13 <Rucknium[m]> They say "The Chamber of Commerce of the United States is the world’s largest business organization." actually https://www.uschamber.com/about
17:56:27 <Rucknium[m]> The article is pretty balanced IMHO
18:10:20 <BusyBoredom[m]> The tax stuff sucks. I bet some utility built into a gateway for exporting a .csv of past purchase amounts and USD prices might be helpful for compliance with taxes as much as I'd hate to code it. 
18:31:55 <ajs_[m]> MoneroKon 2023 tickets are now on sale: https://tickets.monerokon.com
20:23:23 <plowsof11> did digilol.net Siren Stnby make that happen?
20:29:29 <ajs_[m]> yes. they did a great job integrating XMR/BTC payments. Thank you
20:30:09 <plowsof11> oh nice, is this the first time weve been able to accept those payment methods?
20:31:43 <ajs_[m]> we did last year with Shopify and NowPayments plugin, but the backend system was not that great.
20:32:37 <ajs_[m]> this year is a huge improvement and even better with a FOSS ticket system
20:52:00 <Stnby[m]> <plowsof11> "did digilol.net Siren Stnby make..." <- Leave us a review (or don't) on trustpilot xD, helps a lot.
20:52:43 <plowsof11> copy and pasting some text now 
20:53:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> So all payment gets converted to fiat?
20:53:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or what happens to the xmr if I buy a ticket  
20:53:54 <Stnby[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Gets exchanged to fiat by NowPayments
20:54:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> Next time we should just convert all to xmr 
20:57:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or at least, not convert the xmr 
20:58:10 <Siren[m]> That's also possible but DR needs to configure that on the third party payment gatewya
20:58:17 <Siren[m]> s/gatewya/gateway/
20:58:21 <Stnby[m]> I guess most expenses are in EUR + DR has no crypto exchange accounts
20:59:35 <plowsof11> can we just not pay the invoices instead (cheaper)
21:00:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> Can just use trocador (anonpay?) to convert everything to xmr, except for fiat 
21:01:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> So the only coin hitting nowpayments would be xmr 
21:01:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> Or.. actually, xmr should just go straight to the Monerokon wallet lol
21:02:22 <plowsof11> third parties who produce invoices directly in xmr could have an incentive (let it be known somewhere that bobs sticker shop wanted to be paid directly in monero) just an idea
21:02:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> S/should/could
21:03:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> S/Bob/bull
21:03:28 <plowsof11> FOSS + accepts monero + created by sock accounts in the community = huge win though , nice
21:09:30 <Siren[m]> <Stnby[m]> "Leave us a review (or don't..." <- Unironically we need this to at least show up on search results :D https://www.trustpilot.com/review/digilol.net
21:09:56 <Siren[m]> Ps: stnby was holding me hostage 
21:45:03 <defeatoverseer[m> TLDR - Need a quantifiable counter measure for preventing the Overseer Attack. Will be paying for this research. Want to get started sooner rather than later.... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/14dad6dedc8b46b2583e49d97e499997ae31f7b2>)
21:47:12 <plowsof11> defeatoverseer: https://bounties.monero.social/
22:42:13 <still_stuck[m]> Why doesn't Gitlab allow a protonmail registration?
22:43:16 <plowsof11> #monero-offtopic:monero.social ?
22:43:46 <still_stuck[m]> That fits into offtopic? Ok.
23:02:26 <still_stuck[m]> Whatever, I want to state that I am heavily in favour of that one movie after reading the entire comments section of that movie, I can mostly get a feeling from the proposer that they are going into the right direction.... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/f9746d8681fdc5498b91e8e6a37097bc97d48b65>)
23:02:40 <still_stuck[m]> s///, s///, s///
23:02:58 <still_stuck[m]> s///, s///, s///
23:03:31 <still_stuck[m]>  * Whatever, I want to state that I am heavily in favour of that one movie "Idea" after reading the entire comments section of the PR, I can mostly get a feeling from the proposer that they are going into the right direction. This is because if technology is there, culture is more important than technology. Culture is a collective behavioural structure and interfacing with the most important parts of it is very much
23:03:31 <still_stuck[m]> beneficial. So, to get an avalanche like that started from CCS proposals shows POWER. Also, the price point was about 25k$, I think that is very doable. If this lands in funding required, I am donating.
23:03:31 <still_stuck[m]> I only consider that the license, if not already made permissible enough considering what is required for these awards, should be made as permissible as possible. Otherwise, if we are simply confident the money would be used as stated I don't see a reason not to push this to funding required. 
23:03:31 <still_stuck[m]> ...(truncated)
23:03:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> Geonic is a long time community member 
23:05:21 <still_stuck[m]> Even better I suppose.
23:05:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> He's been around long enough, and know enough people that there was no reason to make such mistakes. Stop acting like we attacked a noob
23:07:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> The movie doesnt do justice to monero or the story.
23:07:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> Instead of writing a book about how you like unicorns, tell me his does 10k to play the Spanish short film at festivals spread _monero_ awareness when monero isnt even mentioned?
23:08:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> True story ie the dead kid.
23:08:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> Disclaimer: ive not seen the film, as its private viewing only
23:08:42 <ofrnxmr[m]> But I do know that there is a physical gold M coin that was added to this real life dead kids story
23:09:13 <still_stuck[m]> And that there is an untraceable currency mentioned which is not Bitcoin.
23:09:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> So dero?
23:11:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> You're big long post is a Buncha nonsense. Need to respond in parts.
23:11:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> Example "how are you doing your part IRL"
23:11:19 <ofrnxmr[m]> #monero-offtopic:monero.social 
23:12:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> Uneducated post making a million assumptions, God damn 
23:12:36 <still_stuck[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> The movie doesnt do justice to monero or the story.
23:12:36 <still_stuck[m]> > 
23:12:36 <still_stuck[m]> > Instead of writing a book about how you like unicorns, tell me his does 10k to play the Spanish short film at festivals spread _monero_ awareness when monero isnt even mentioned?
23:12:36 <still_stuck[m]> I mean, as I mentioned that it was indirectly mentioned, meaning that even if it is just a physical M coin and those references, in my head it partially makes more sense. So it depends on the audience, so I would say a strong enough influence for me.
23:13:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> Liar or retarded
23:13:39 <still_stuck[m]>  * I mean, as I mentioned that it was indirectly mentioned, meaning that even if it is just a physical M coin and those references, in my head it partially makes more sense. So it depends on the audience, so I would say a strong enough influence for me. Not to say that awareness might also come from the fact that the author will be at those places and he himself has awareness.
23:13:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> A random person watching rhis film will not cone away with "monero"
23:14:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> People arent psychic lolzzz
23:16:30 <plowsof11> thank you for donating and i agree, sirs this is your chance for meme magic go get it 
23:18:18 <still_stuck[m]>  * Whatever, I want to state that I am heavily in favour of that one movie "Idea" after reading the entire comments section of the PR, I can mostly get a feeling from the proposer that they are going into the right direction. This is because if technology is there, culture is more important than... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/8b4380c669a853a6ec87aab498e399091965ce0e>)
23:19:28 <still_stuck[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "He's been around long enough..." <- I crossed the part about git out, I mean objectively, I guess he is obviously new to git, whatever. I've just stated my thoughts according to the information that I could gather on this.
23:20:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> I dont blame you for that. I blame the information available for being largely a joke meant to make pretty things sound nice
23:20:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> Im not saying Geonic is a scammer, but that ccs is terrible 
23:21:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> 12k to pay to audition, 12k after finishing the audition
23:21:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> Meanwhile we turned down 5k from a previous donor 
23:21:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> If were going to fund movies, we better be able to fund development first 
23:28:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> We've had worse ccs go to funding and be funded. Had. Not exactly productive to keep focusing on nonsense when we need things.
23:29:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> s/nonsense/wants
23:29:10 <still_stuck[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "I dont blame you for that. I..." <- Information in regards to how the proposal would be executed or specifically in regards to movie content? I suppose the former, I guess can he can elaborate more on the details in regards to this although I do understand why someone would initially summarize the info the way he summarized it. I also suppose he expected more enthusiasm himself while writing it.
23:29:26 <still_stuck[m]> s/also//
23:29:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> The movie is finished. There is nothing to be said about it
23:30:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> No, he didnt expect enthusiasm. He expected the old ccs where he'd get merged and funded np because nobody gave a shit and everybody was scamming / eating the low hanging fruit
23:31:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> He should have opened the ccs before mj got paid 
23:31:28 <BusyBoredom[m]> I think this community's general lack of enthusiasm around marketing is part of this too. We differ from most crypto communities in that we have a pretty strong focus on technical superiority rather than brand recognition.
23:32:32 <still_stuck[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Ok, because I didn't know about exactly this metagame since I wasn't around for "old ccs", in ccs, so to say.
23:32:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> Old ccs like, 3 months or so ha. Lol
23:33:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ok off topic now
23:33:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> Rehashing months of conversation = not needed, not here. Everyone has been through thus 10000 times