04:18:57 <binaryFate> FYI I've published a general fund transparency report: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/11fslu9/monero_general_fund_transparency_report_march_2023/
13:21:11 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://txstreet.com/v/xmr
13:21:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> Rucknium:   if youre available, heres a good show 
13:31:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> 0.97 xmr in fees that would have been left on the table
13:33:16 <nioc> were they on a different table?
13:34:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> Miners like 2miners, c3pool and others that have yet to fid the block template timing, essentially would have drovebthe bus to the stop, and say "I was told 0 passengers, and 0 is all im taking" and drive off
13:35:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yet to fix*
13:36:29 <nioc> link didn't go to a specific block if that's what you were trying to show 
13:37:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> Need to watch the txpool live 
13:37:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://xmrchain.net/block/2833179
13:38:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> But this is the block that captured the fees 
13:41:12 <nioc> still wondering who that is that uses that huge fee
13:41:26 <nioc> happens on a regulat basis for a long time now
14:02:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> Quite a bit of them today 
15:35:54 <monerobull[m]> I've emailed random datacenters in Clifton USA warning them about how our hashrate spikes might come from their customers being compromised 
15:36:15 <monerobull[m]> "Thank you so much for your ticket.
15:36:15 <monerobull[m]> Would you please provide the IPV4s responsible for mining Monero so we can find out which customer(s) are responsible?"  Oh well
15:36:36 <sech1> ask hashvault admin :D
15:37:06 <monerobull[m]> As if they'd tell us lol
15:46:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> > <@monerobull:matrix.org> "Thank you so much for your ticket.
15:46:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> > Would you please provide the IPV4s responsible for mining Monero so we can find out which customer(s) are responsible?"  Oh well
15:46:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> Do they mean to say they dont know which servers are going haywire 
15:47:10 <monerobull[m]> Well we don't know which provider it is
15:47:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> Ah I see
15:47:33 <monerobull[m]> I just googled "Datacenters Clifton USA" and so far emailed two companies 
15:47:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> Try Fork Networking 😂
15:48:09 <monerobull[m]> I'm also not saying they definitely are compromised, just that it is possible 
15:48:19 <monerobull[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Are those the ones that host monero stuff?
15:48:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yeah, like 750 spy noded
15:48:46 <monerobull[m]> Oh
15:49:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> (They also sponsor us)
15:49:30 <monerobull[m]> I thought they were sponsors kek
15:49:30 <monerobull[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: Uh what
15:49:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://www.getmonero.org/community/sponsorships/
15:49:56 <monerobull[m]> Yeah, didn't know they host spynodes lol
15:50:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> they probably dont run the nodes, but a customer of theirs owns multiple IP ranges
15:51:00 <monerobull[m]> I see
15:55:25 <Rucknium[m]> How do we know that the miner is in Clifton, USA?
15:57:00 <sech1> from hashvault's dashboard
15:57:06 <sech1> at least he connects from Clifton
15:57:55 <Rucknium[m]> Hashvault's dashboard can tell you that? Wow
15:58:17 <Rucknium[m]> Yes, could be just a relay
16:01:49 <monerobull[m]> If you care enough to relay the mining, wouldn't you just solomine instead of paying fees to hashvault 
16:04:34 <Rucknium[m]> Is it possible that HashVault only shows the first IP address that mines to a specific XMR address? Or would it show multiple IP addresses?
16:07:14 <Rucknium[m]> Is everyone still confident that 0.6 XMR per block is a sufficient security budget? 🫣
16:07:29 <Rucknium[m]> Realistically, nothing can be done about 0.6 XMR / block now.
16:08:02 <Rucknium[m]> At least it won't decay exponentially like BTC's
16:11:11 <xfedex[m]> what was the botnet address?
16:21:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> <monerobull[m]> "If you care enough to relay..." <- The hr was solo for a few hrs before moving to hashvault 
16:39:39 <ceetee[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "Is everyone still confident that..." <- As you know xmr inflation is set to be significantly lower than gold, the next best hard asset, and I think that was a good move. The only issue it the dollar/xmr ratio...
16:41:33 <Rucknium[m]> It looks like a good move until Monero is 51% attacked. Then it would look like a very bad move.
16:42:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> I think one of the issues with the low global has isnt just the security budget 
16:42:40 <ofrnxmr[m]> But its definitely doesnt attract for-profit mining farms
16:44:56 <ofrnxmr[m]> The problem with more xmr is seemingly already paper traded. I think one thing that will help with value/hr is if cex had to prove reserves
16:46:53 <Mill[m]> free moneros ?
16:46:58 <Mill[m]> :trollface:
16:47:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> They dont let you WD when the price gets pushed down / up too far
16:47:27 <ofrnxmr[m]> And then swaps get emptied out at the lower price, where I imagine Binance is restocking by promoting a fake price 
16:48:10 <monerobull[m]> Once you can only get xmr on serai,haveno or Basicswap-style dexes we should see the pxmr resolved 
16:48:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> s/binance/whatevercex
16:48:31 <monerobull[m]> The mica regulations are shaping up very bullish 
16:48:31 <ofrnxmr[m]> The real squeeze ^.
16:48:43 <ofrnxmr[m]> Squeezing monero doesnt work if we all avoid kyc
16:48:58 <ofrnxmr[m]> You need limit orders buy orders to create walls
16:49:11 <monerobull[m]> It does work if every cex is forced to delist
16:50:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> Right right
16:50:08 <monerobull[m]> Xmr will be the first crypto to decouple from the others and the stock market 
16:50:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> Im drifted off thinking how about silly monerun was
16:50:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> How silly*
16:50:32 <monerobull[m]> The pump?
16:50:37 <ofrnxmr[m]> Yeah
16:50:50 <ofrnxmr[m]> Like withdrawing after pumping helps 
16:50:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> They list paper trade it back down after 
16:51:06 <ofrnxmr[m]> You need to have buy orders set, and chase the price up
16:51:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> And force them to run away with their sells. If they market sell it down, they fucked up and lost a lot of money thinking they were selling to themself
16:51:56 <monerobull[m]> The original point was to just get coins into self custody, not to pump the price 
16:52:18 <ofrnxmr[m]> The issue is a lot of that xmr went right back to binance at a lower cost 
16:52:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> After it was exchanged for goods and services at a loss
16:53:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> CeX need to
16:53:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> Delist
16:53:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> Prove reserves
16:53:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> or have trading resistance 
16:53:32 <monerobull[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: This doesn't happen when you buy stuff at monerosupplies.com ;:DD
16:53:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> Without one of these, the price is not "supply and demand"
16:54:46 <monerobull[m]> Mica should take care of that
16:55:18 <monerobull[m]> Real glad that they only focus on vasps 
16:55:32 <monerobull[m]> No "you're going to jail for using xmr" fud
16:56:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> XMR - the new currency of jail
17:27:58 <nioc> you guys make it sound as if paper coins are only effect montero 
17:28:15 <nioc> effecting***
17:28:40 <nioc> if paper is even a reality 
17:56:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> It is
17:56:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> And it is
17:56:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> It does* effect other coins
18:03:27 <monerobull[m]> Doge and grin on their scam exchanges that don't let you withdraw for two years now kek
18:15:38 <xfedex[m]> Wownero on its scam exchange that don't let you deposit for days now kek
18:28:38 <merope> <Rucknium[m]> "Is everyone still confident that..." <- On the one hand, it would be nice to raise that a little bit; on the other, the security budget is the product of the reward and the price - I wonder how those two would interact...
18:30:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> I wouldnt mind if it was "1xmr", but penalized more aggressively.
18:30:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> Just because 1 sounds better to the ear
18:30:52 <nioc> we can't increase the reward so........go to it guys  :)
18:31:36 <merope> Nah, the penalty is just fine the way it is - don't mess with the dynamic blocksize
18:32:27 <nioc> "he security budget is the product of the reward and the price"  <<<
18:32:46 * merope sent a code block: https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/2f0db59f333443f4ad2cde84f5298b7db28d7b9a
18:33:47 <merope> Right now our budget is a little over half of BCH's, and 41.5% of ZEC's
18:34:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> What global hash is this using for xmr
18:34:50 <merope> ?
18:35:25 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Apply for capx budget increase ;)
18:36:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> This chart takes into account the power/hashrate running in the chain, no?
18:36:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> On*
18:38:18 <merope> Yeah, I pull the latest block difficulty
18:38:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> Is that current (right now?) Difficulty has been fluctuating pretty wildly 
18:39:07 <merope> From that I can calculate the breakeven efficiency (at 0.10 $/kWh) and the corresponding power usage
18:39:21 <merope> Yeah, ran that 10 minutes ago
18:40:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> 286g is ~ weekly lows
18:41:40 <hbs[m]> merope: How do you compute power? 
18:42:35 <merope> Network hashrate / breakeven efficiency
18:43:29 <merope> It's just an estimate of course (because it depends on the assumption about the average electricity price paid by the miners)
18:44:20 <hbs[m]> I thought global average was greater than that, more like 0.19 IIRC
18:46:39 <merope> Well, the main reason why I pick 0.10 is that pretty much all these numbers are either directly or inversely proportional to it - so if you know that you pay 2x the electricity, then you will also need 2x the efficiency to break even, for example
18:47:08 <hbs[m]> this page gives the average for the EU https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Electricity_price_statistics#Electricity_prices_for_household_consumers was 0.2525
18:47:20 <merope> Also, many large-scale professional mining operations tend to/try to have cheaper power sources
18:47:33 <merope> And they pay industrial rates, not household
18:48:01 <merope> (Which is why they're typically located in countries with much cheaper power)
18:48:01 <hbs[m]> may not be the case for Monero though given its CPU friendlyness 
18:49:37 <merope> True, Monero's hashrate is probably much more evenly spread
18:49:58 <merope> But at least it gives a reasonable figure for the order of magnitude we're dealing with
18:50:56 <hbs[m]> Your Emission column is computed how?
18:53:09 <merope> It's in [$/second], i.e. the security budget that I mentioned earlier. It's the total amount of money paid to the mining network: block reward * coin price / target block time
18:54:10 <hbs[m]> 👍
18:55:20 <merope> You can find a historical plot here: https://moneroj.net/securitybudget/
18:57:40 <hbs[m]> How do you determine the efficiency?
19:00:10 <merope> Breakeven efficiency [H/s/W] or [H/J] = difficulty * electricity cost / (coin price * block reward * 1000 [W/kW] * 3600 [s/hour] )
19:01:15 <hbs[m]> thanks. This would do a good short talk at Monerokon
19:01:40 <hbs[m]> Demystifying PoW power consumption 
19:02:08 <merope> Some day I'll finish writing my damn paper about all this stuff 😢
19:02:31 <hbs[m]> hurry, the CFP for MoneroKon is still open
19:03:17 <hbs[m]> submit a proposal, then you'll have a forced deadline to deal with :-)
19:03:52 <merope> As much as I'd love to present it there, I would not be able to attend anyway :(
19:04:11 <hbs[m]> could be presented remotely 
19:04:13 <DanIsnotthemanBr> or monerotopia which is around the corner
19:59:25 <chesterfield[m]> can anyone tell me if https://protonwallet.org is the most secure wallet for monero
19:59:59 <chesterfield[m]> it apparently has built in churning
20:00:11 <DanIsnotthemanBr> :/
20:01:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> Sounds like fun. Does it churn to your wallet, or someone elses 😁
20:01:48 <chesterfield[m]> https://www.reddit.com/user/allships4freedom/
20:01:58 <chesterfield[m]> this guy really likes that wallet
20:03:05 <chesterfield[m]> might be worth checking the fees this wallet is using 👀
20:03:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> Peorple on r/darknet 
20:03:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> Rip
20:04:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> Whats the point of using the darknet if youre a vegetable and use, or are even curious about shady webwallets
20:05:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> (Not you)
20:08:10 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Sounds like saying “military grade encryption”
20:08:19 <chesterfield[m]> wow that sounds very powerful
20:08:20 <chesterfield[m]> which wallet has that
20:08:35 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Monero gui
20:08:47 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Bic encryption
20:08:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> Dumbasses think this is coinjoin on  btc
20:08:52 <chesterfield[m]> um it's not in the splash screen
20:09:10 <chesterfield[m]> i need to see the phrase "military grade encryption" or it's not real
20:09:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> "Lets just flood the chain with fingerprintable tx and claim fake privacy"
20:09:19 <chesterfield[m]> someone really does need to investigate the proton wallet for science
20:09:31 <chesterfield[m]> there are probably a few poor souls using it
20:09:41 <chesterfield[m]> might be worth a post to darknet about it too 
20:09:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> My reddit RIP
20:15:12 <Rucknium[m]> Looks like that wallet is not open source. And it looks to be Windows-only.
20:15:20 <ofrnxmr[m]> The wallet utilizes open source libraries where possible and open standards. In addition, we have committed to fully open sourcing the wallet. We believe strongly in open source values and philosophy.
20:15:26 <ofrnxmr[m]> Maybe one day ♥️
20:15:34 <chesterfield[m]> Rucknium[m]: i saw a linux version on there
20:16:14 <ofrnxmr[m]> "We USE open source libs" 🚩
20:16:24 <chesterfield[m]> huge
20:16:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> Who tf doesnt 🫠
20:17:05 <Rucknium[m]> If any of those open source libs are GPL, then they will be in trouble 🫣
20:28:39 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Release the lawyers
20:29:01 <Torr> > Release the lawyers
20:29:02 <Torr> Lol
20:49:19 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort> > can anyone tell me if https://protonwallet.org/ is the most secure wallet for monero
20:49:19 <bridgerton[m]> Is this even FOSS?
20:49:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> No
20:49:54 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort> probed around their website, and other than being really non-specific about the details they don't have any sources linked
20:50:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> I posted a few posts above the quote from their website saying they are not open source 
20:50:42 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort> ah yes I see it
20:52:18 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort> still it's peculiar that they claim to be this "privacy wallet" have an onion mirror, download hashes, warrant canary, and all that. But no actual sources or even technical details for their claims. For example
20:52:18 <bridgerton[m]> > the Monero wallet picks a random node from the internet to get network information on each run
20:52:18 <bridgerton[m]> but they never specify from what list do they get the nodes from at all
20:54:28 <dsc_> this website is a meme
20:54:40 <bridgerton[m]> <BobbedBort> also they seem to use ChangeNow not trocador, LM, or some more trustworthy platform
21:49:11 <DanIsnotthemanBr> Must be an echo in here
22:22:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> hbs:  $400/min ccs with animated videos 
22:22:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> To explain to people how mystery money works 
22:23:55 <hbs[m]> don't know if that's what's needed, but I definitely think there is something to be explained more clearly 
22:23:55 <ofrnxmr[m]> People (the tin foil and fudders) don't actually know how the current keys work
22:24:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> Neverymind how ring sigs, ct, or anything else works 
22:24:27 <hbs[m]> true, but the keys are a little different as it is something they have
22:24:56 <hbs[m]> so knowing what can be done with each may help them better handle them
22:25:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> And they use them? 99% dont
22:25:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> UX is more important than ELI5
22:26:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> (To the end user). You can ELI5 til youre blue in the face, then realize you wasted your breathe and its still a mystery, just now they wasted your time and believe you
22:28:08 <ofrnxmr[m]> If a user goes into a wallet and sees "view key" and the "view key" shows only incoming, thats bad UX
22:28:08 <hbs[m]> True, but there is still a smaller population which may need longer explanations
22:28:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> Anyone arguing otherwise needs an ELI5 on the current view keys being bad UX but still allowing tracking of spends 
22:30:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> But why ELI5 the problem? Are the users helping to fix it? Do they care about anything more then "is it better"?
22:30:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> Sorry to drag on, but anytime a user wants to ask me about such a thing, my answer is "how do you use your current keys?" - because xyproblem.info
22:33:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> The fud starts with a false assumption, and wants explaining a rabbit hole that doesnt exist.
22:33:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> Either you understand how view keys work, or you dont. Brb while I check chatgpt 
22:38:58 * ofrnxmr[m] uploaded an image: (141KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/monero.social/BEKEImmvKMSwlpYiCaIjCGKG/8sh4311jmmd954x0.jpg >
22:39:57 <ofrnxmr[m]> >I apologize for any confusion caused by my previous response. You are correct that it is possible to view outgoing transactions with the view key without the key images.
22:51:41 <hbs[m]> I hope we can come up with something that does not require too much effort while still providing sufficient transparency on what the various Seraphis keys do and how they are not sacrificing privacy vs what is possible today. But maybe I'm just too willing to provide explanations that nobody wants.
23:03:43 <plowsof11> who is we? 
23:04:21 <plowsof11> im pretty sure the document exists already 
23:06:12 <hbs[m]> we as the Monero community which is following the Seraphis progress? I have not seen such document yet, but there are so many you may be right.
23:08:23 <monerobull[m]> > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> The fud starts with a false assumption, and wants explaining a rabbit hole that doesnt exist.
23:08:23 <monerobull[m]> > 
23:08:23 <monerobull[m]> > Either you understand how view keys work, or you dont. Brb while I check chatgpt 
23:08:23 <monerobull[m]> Just explain it with blocks being boxes
23:09:57 <monerobull[m]> View Tag is looking at a box, if it has your name on it, use view key to open the box and add what's in there to your balance 
23:10:28 <plowsof11> as above^ - viewkeys do not 'only show outgoing transactions', what else do you need to know about moving to seraphis' levels of privacy instead of the misleading situation we're in now
23:11:10 <plowsof11> viewkeys revealed everything from day one sorry 
23:11:48 <plowsof11> to a high certainty* but .. yeah sorry, next question
23:12:15 <plowsof11> s/outgoing/incoming
23:14:20 <hbs[m]> That is what needs to be explained in detail, otherwise it looks like it is simply and way of avoiding the question altogether. There needs to be a clear explanation that no, Seraphis will not reveal more than what is already revealed using today's view key, proofs and key images. But again, maybe I am too willing go explain things to people who don't care.
23:15:09 <plowsof11> what is the point of explaining to me the heuristics of how it works when it will go in one ear and out the other?
23:15:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> Plowsof explained in detail
23:15:10 <ofrnxmr[m]> Screenshot > tweet 
23:15:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> Any more detail and it might take 8 more years to explain 
23:16:05 <plowsof11> 'put your viewkey into the generic xmr scanner and watch it discover your spends, next question'
23:17:31 <plowsof11> 'but doesnt that mean centralised services with many view keys damage our privacy' yeah we know 
23:19:39 <ofrnxmr[m]> 😭😭 talk about circular 
23:20:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> thats. . Why.. we.. make.. improvements..
23:20:25 <ofrnxmr[m]> "I DONT UNDERSTAND. EXPLAIN HARDER"
23:21:23 <ofrnxmr[m]> Like.. please dont vote "I dont understand, so no"
23:22:22 <plowsof11> https://github.com/moneroexamples/generic-xmr-scanner , this is not about avoiding the question sir, please read and use from top to bottom 
23:23:54 <ofrnxmr[m]> No. Dont DYOR, you kidding me? Just use protonwallet
23:23:55 <plowsof11> "but what if i just typed 'seraphis view keys' into a search engine and read the first reddit thread?" well you tell me 
23:24:45 <ofrnxmr[m]> Whatever you Do. Dont. Do. That.
23:24:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> You might accidently find your answer 
23:25:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> Nobody like shortcuts! Ask/work harder, not smarter.
23:43:03 <nioc> please no, I am not reading a reddit thread 
23:44:07 <nioc> who let plowsoft back in here?
23:44:33 <ofrnxmr[m]> Monerobull
23:45:16 <monerobull[m]> What
23:47:24 <nioc> I like explanations, specifically the ones I get on IRC 
23:53:42 <plowsof11> all comms from me until after the 9th are from beyond the grave (where i can keep half an eye on things) but here is the next meeting on the 11th https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/804
23:54:21 <ofrnxmr[m]> Dont ever listen to this guy^