05:05:36 <hfclover[m]> I heard you gave have to raise over 134 xmr before the end of the month to finance a EAE fix. Is this true? 
05:05:36 <hfclover[m]> https://monerofund.org/projects/eae_attack_and_churning
05:05:54 <hfclover[m]> s/a/an/
05:07:29 <monerobull[m]> Pretty much
05:09:18 <hfclover[m]> monerobull[m]: How long has this fund been up?
05:09:49 <monerobull[m]> At most since last Wednesday
05:11:29 <hfclover[m]> monerobull[m]: Is the deadline real? Why wasn't it included in the post?
05:12:20 <monerobull[m]> It's kind of soft i believe. Like if 50% get raised the work is already getting started 
05:12:25 <monerobull[m]> For 50%
05:12:55 <monerobull[m]> Although it's unclear how helpful this research would really be if abandoned due to lack of funding halfway through 
05:15:09 <hfclover[m]> monerobull[m]: Should probably mention the deadline. It's jarring to hear there's 15 days to raise 20 grand and then go to the page and it's not mentioned.
05:15:42 <monerobull[m]> We have a magic monero fund meeting today, I'll mention it
05:22:17 <hfclover[m]> Have you ever raised this much money in this amount of time before? And how confident are you that it'll yield actionable results to fix the problem?
05:32:21 <monerobull[m]> Rucknium: ?
05:32:39 <hfclover[m]> s/gave//, s/a/an/
05:33:04 <monerobull[m]> Eth atomic swaps was quite success but i wasn't in the committee yet when that got raised
05:33:54 <monerobull[m]> * was quite the success but
06:28:08 <DanIsnotthemanBr> car wash fund raiser?
06:31:55 <defeatoverseer[m> <hfclover[m]> "Have you ever raised this much..." <- You can't get much more qualified than Dr. Nathan Borggren for this type of research.
06:33:05 <defeatoverseer[m> If the problem is possible to fix, you can be confident that he will identify that.
06:45:25 <defeatoverseer[m> <hfclover[m]> "I heard you gave have to raise..." <- > <@dimmed6843:monero.social> I heard you have to raise over 134 xmr before the end of the month to finance an EAE fix. Is this true? 
06:45:25 <defeatoverseer[m> > 
06:45:25 <defeatoverseer[m> > https://monerofund.org/projects/eae_attack_and_churning
06:45:25 <defeatoverseer[m> It isn't just an EAE fix, it also covers churning and Overseer.
06:47:55 <hfclover[m]> <defeatoverseer[m> "You can't get much more qualifie..." <- Yeah but what is the deliverable? Is it an article or a push to the repo? I guess I'm not sure what we'd be paying for.
06:47:55 <hfclover[m]> I've read a lot of research papers where somebody correctly identifies a theoretical solution to a problem and implementing a fix turns out to be way more difficult
06:48:57 <hfclover[m]> * Yeah but what is the deliverable? Is it an article or a push to the repo? I guess I'm not sure what we'd be paying for.
06:48:57 <hfclover[m]> I've read a lot of research papers where somebody correctly identifies a theoretical solution to a problem and implementing a fix turns out to be way more difficult and beyond the scope of the article
06:51:53 <defeatoverseer[m> The first thing on the agenda will be to determine if it's possible to overcome EAE/Overseer.
06:52:15 <defeatoverseer[m> That would have to begin with a paper, not a push to the repo.
06:55:55 <defeatoverseer[m> Per the proposal, we should expect "results, code and recommendations".
06:56:59 <defeatoverseer[m> So a push to the repo is possible, but at some stage it will have to be handed over to the Monero developers for implementation.
06:58:06 <defeatoverseer[m> Borggren is familiar with the Monero code and would not propose something that is outlandishly difficult to implement.
07:23:48 <hfclover[m]> <defeatoverseer[m> "You could be right, we don't..." <- I feel like most of the major businesses that deal with monero could dish out 134 xmr if they were confident they'd get an improvement to their currency and security of their business. It seems like the deliverables need to be much more clear and prominent in the proposal if you want buy-in from users. 
07:24:42 <hfclover[m]> * I feel like most of the major businesses that deal with monero could dish out 134 xmr if they were confident they'd get an improvement to their currency and/or security of their business. It seems like the deliverables need to be much more concrete and prominent in the proposal if you want buy-in. 
07:26:43 <defeatoverseer[m> I see where you're coming from, I'll see what I can do.
07:27:09 <defeatoverseer[m> Which businesses did you have in mind? I haven't actually reached out to any of them yet.
07:27:18 <ceetee[m]> <hfclover[m]> "Have you ever raised this much..." <- I mean other CCS proposals have raised similiar amounts on a short time frame as well.
07:29:50 <ceetee[m]> swap services are examples for business that could contribute significantly are swap service providers
07:31:17 <defeatoverseer[m> Is there a directory of these services somewhere?
07:33:54 <ceetee[m]> There are plenty of providers, most wallets have some build in, otherwise trocador.app is the most popular aggregator
07:34:58 <ceetee[m]> In principle every service that takes fees is in a good position to contribute, and I'm certain that some of them have often done so in the past
07:44:05 <hfclover[m]> <defeatoverseer[m> "Which businesses did you have in..." <- The ones you'd find on dread.
07:44:44 <hfclover[m]> They're the ones with a lot of xmr and interest in cybersecurity
07:47:45 <defeatoverseer[m> Thanks.
08:51:37 <Rucknium[m]> hfclover: This is the weak spot of Monero's fundraising mechanisms. Chicken and egg problem. First mover disadvantage (yes, it can be a disadvantage too). Free rider problem. 
08:53:38 <Rucknium[m]> With Bitcoin Cash's Flipstarter, at least if you "contribute", it will be fully funded by a deadline and all donors pay or it won't be fully funded and no donors will pay. Seraphis in theory could have the capability to do collaborative fundraising on chain, but I think koe decided to go with one of the Seraphis options that does not allow this.
08:54:37 <Rucknium[m]> Here's the link to the full research proposal in case you didn't see it: https://github.com/MAGICGrants/Monero-Fund/blob/main/projects/borggren_research-MAGIC-submission.pdf
08:56:41 <Rucknium[m]> Here's our informal agreement with Dr. Borggren:
08:57:09 <Rucknium[m]> "The MAGIC Monero Fund Committee voted to issue you a grant of 86 XMR, payable on July 1st, for the first month of your proposed research to be carried out in June. We will also launch a community fundraiser on monerofund.org to fundraise the remaining 134 XMR. If the fundraiser is 100% successful by July 1st, then the plan is for your research to continue in July, the 134 XMR to be paid on August 1st....
08:57:19 <Rucknium[m]> "If the fundraiser is partially successful, then MAGIC will pay you a prorated amount for prorated amount of research time in July. MAGIC requests that you prepare a short report and include code for submission to MAGIC on June 30th so that there is some publicly available research progress in the event that the community fundraiser is not successful. "
08:57:54 <Rucknium[m]> I don't know what exactly is in the formal contract between the MAGIC board and Dr. Borggren, but it would be something similar to this.
08:58:29 <Rucknium[m]> He can work June-July. He said he can maybe put in some time in August. So we have a time limitation.
08:59:32 <Rucknium[m]> MAGIC needs to be clear about what it is willing to do instead of being vague. We can re-negotiate if necessary, but this is an agreement that both sides have committed to at the moment.
09:01:03 <Rucknium[m]> The deliverable is in the proposal that I linked: 
09:01:22 <Rucknium[m]> "The proposed work will quantify, measure, and analyze the structure and sensitivity Monero has with respect to the fungibility of the Monero coins, the connectivity of merchants and their customers, and how this structure can change as the microeconomics of repeated transactions is correlated and associated. Results, code, and recommendations will be shared with the community with the goal of quantifying, qualifying and improving
09:01:22 <Rucknium[m]> its privacy capabilities."
09:02:29 <Rucknium[m]> Is this going to solve EAE once and for all? The nature of new research is that it is uncertain.
09:03:06 <Rucknium[m]> The potency of the EAE and similar attacks has not even been calculated. We don't know how bad the problem can be.
09:03:43 <Rucknium[m]> Does it increase guessing entropy to 50%? 90%? 95? Under what conditions?
09:04:49 <Rucknium[m]> Churning and EAE have been a white whale of Monero researchers.
09:05:38 <evalda[m]> Is there a write up on EAE attack? How does it work?
09:05:39 <DanIsnotthemanBr> i go chicken before egg
09:06:15 <Rucknium[m]> I meant "guessing probability", from Definition 3.1 here: Ronge, V., Egger, C., Lai, R. W. F., Schröder, D., & Yin, H. H. F. (2021). "Foundations of ring sampling." https://moneroresearch.info/index.php?action=resource_RESOURCEVIEW_CORE&id=19
09:06:43 <defeatoverseer[m> https://www.monerooutreach.org/breaking-monero/poisoned-outputs.html
09:06:50 <Rucknium[m]> evalda: This is good: https://www.monerooutreach.org/breaking-monero/poisoned-outputs.html
09:10:57 <Rucknium[m]> <hfclover[m]> "Yeah but what is the deliverable..." <- > <@dimmed6843:monero.social> Yeah but what is the deliverable? Is it an article or a push to the repo? I guess I'm not sure what we'd be paying for.
09:10:57 <Rucknium[m]> > I've read a lot of research papers where somebody correctly identifies a theoretical solution to a problem and implementing a fix turns out to be way more difficult and beyond the scope of the article
09:10:57 <Rucknium[m]> The goal of this research is practical. I wrote the MAGIC request for research proposals last year. I required that research have direct, immediate benefit to Monero: "The MAGIC Monero Fund is offering a grant program to support _actionable_ Monero research, especially research relating to privacy, security, user experience, and efficiency....The research plan should...include the following...A plan to work with Monero's developers
09:10:57 <Rucknium[m]> and/or researchers to integrate the results of the research into Monero's protocol or ecosystem."
09:10:59 <Rucknium[m]> https://monerofund.org/apply_research
09:11:31 <Rucknium[m]> Dr. Borggren's proposal was written with this requirement in mind
09:12:14 <Rucknium[m]> MAGIC raised 24,000 USD for ETH<>XMR atomic swaps last year in about 6 weeks: https://monerofund.org/projects/eth_xmr_atomic_swaps
09:12:25 <Rucknium[m]> I think I answered all your questions.
09:21:27 <evalda[m]> Hmm... Would adding another hop like monero wallet A > monero wallet B > merchant help to defend against the EAE attack?
09:22:31 <plowsof11> i want to request that funds [from this bounty](https://bounties.monero.social/posts/76/4-214m-research-overseer-attack-countermeasures) (4.21xmr) be donated to the magic monero fund. in a secure ish way - do they have a public monero donation address Rucknium?
09:23:16 <Rucknium[m]> evalda: We are not sure. That practice is called "churning". The research is designed to try to figure out if churning can help defeat EAE
09:23:59 <evalda[m]> Thank you Rucknium: 
09:24:15 <Rucknium[m]> plowsof: Click "donate". We use BTCPay Server to process XMR and BTC: https://monerofund.org/projects/eae_attack_and_churning
09:25:04 <evalda[m]> Yeah btw how I can help by donating towards this research?
09:25:15 <evalda[m]> I see above
09:26:04 <plowsof11> the wallet custodian just wants an address to pay (this way they have to trust my copied address or they must do it themselves) 
09:26:52 <plowsof11> DIY would be the only option, i will request
09:28:00 <Rucknium[m]> plowsof: If you don't want to use BTCPay Server, ask sgp  for an alternative.
09:34:08 <evalda[m]> Donated
09:37:16 <Rucknium[m]> Thank you
12:45:47 <sgp[m]> <Rucknium[m]> "plowsof: If you don't want to..." <- Fwiw, it's trivial to make a new invoice and take the address from that; it'll continue to work. plowsof @plowsof:matrix.org: let me know if you still need an address
12:59:21 <Rucknium[m]> ^ would be much better for properly tracking the donation goal (unless you want an unlicensed JavaScript surgeon (me) to perform open heart surgery on the patient mid-flight).
14:16:33 <plowsof11> thanks sgp Rucknium, true, i see that i can provide an invoice URL instead (nicely done). i have made the request, and await an "ok", will update you as it progresses 
17:01:43 <monerobull[m]> I tuned into a random radio station and they did a 15 minute talk about how CBDCs are evil
17:01:50 <monerobull[m]> * I just tuned into
17:02:06 <monerobull[m]> They ended with "everything will get worse and there is no plan b"
17:02:24 <monerobull[m]> Now that's where you're wrong kiddo 😎
20:19:42 <Hycide[m]> <monerobull[m]> "I tuned into a random radio..." <- Really seems to me like the dangers of CBDCs are spreading to normies. Good to see
20:23:54 <monerobull[m]> It was very well researched, listed all the names of different cbdc pilot projects and cooperations between countries. was apparently a speech held by some "financial expert" at a conference
21:50:20 <geonic> Germans will be the last to go for a cbdc
22:51:58 <midipoet> The sad reality is that there is no cryptocurrency currently out there (at least that i know of) that would actually work as a national day-to-day currency. At least not one that my mum could use adequately. 
22:53:14 <midipoet> Of course that doesn't excuse CBDCs, but believing there is a market ready alternative isn't completely true. 
22:53:30 <r4v3r23[m]1> who said they need to work at the national level?
22:53:59 <r4v3r23[m]1> * who said they need to work as a "national day-to-day currency"?