00:11:24 vtnerd Full-Time 2023 Q3 has moved to funding! https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/vtnerd-2023-q3.html 00:38:11 Hey guys, I created a CCS for the Monero Business Wallet. If anyone is interested after the Subscriptions wallet, you are more than welcome to look into it :) 00:39:01 some feedback was given today https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-community/20230703#c262341 00:42:14 "comradeblin: lmk if you have..." <- Hey, I understand your concerns, the option to auto convert is there for merchants that are not that much into monero/crypto, but would like to accept. 00:44:33 "Since we're talking about..." <- Thanks for the feedback, I'll make sure to talk this through with Luke, although as said, the conversation with sideshift is option to be as simple as we can. 00:45:53 "i think this can be handled by..." <- Definitely, but it is called BTC and not MoneroPay for a reason 00:51:03 We gladly accept any recommendations about the Business wallet. 00:56:57 * vostoemisio[m] posted a file: (98KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/lzBSToApHdsshrTqOskWIGPw/Vosto%20Emisio%20-%20Basic%20Core%20Concept%20%231%20Tail%20Emission%20VO%20Script.pdf > 00:57:00 Hey Everyone! 00:57:00 I'm pleased to share with you the voiceover and general script for our first Core Concept video, which focuses on Tail Emission. Also, a big thank you to xenu for revising and helping with the script. 00:57:00 //VOSTO 00:58:03 * Hey Everyone! 00:58:03 I'm pleased to share with you the voiceover and general script for our first Core Concept video, which focuses on the Tail Emission. Also, a big thank you to xenu for revising and helping with the script. 00:58:03 //VOSTO 01:03:20 "convert to stablecoins vis..." <- Sorry, I think you misunderstood, we are not advertising 3% in any way. "We believe that this can be done for less than the cost of credit card processing fees (3%)." As I see sideshift takes about 2.5 percent, and trocador takes about 0.06-0.1%, that being said, we'll implement trocador first instead sideshift. And it will be still optional. Thanks for bringing this to my 01:03:20 attention. 01:05:19 vostoemisio[m]: AIUI the tall emission is necessary for the dynamic block size to work. This is because it makes it possible to use a penalty for certain scenarios of block increases 01:05:41 without the tail emission there is nothing to penalize 01:05:52 lukeprofits: 01:06:04 "I had a thought, cause sdk..." <- im off that molly 01:06:04 im off the bean 01:06:18 give me your molly instead pls 01:11:51 Send molly through molly 01:17:07 "lukeprofits:..." <- I'm here. Let me respond to a few of these to explain things. 01:21:57 "Fiat is not stable (rofl lmfao..." <- Yes. Fiat is ass, Monero is better. I agree. That's why I'm working on software to help people use Monero more easily.... (full message at ) 01:22:51 "Naive proposal..." <- If you have any suggestions or things that would make it better, I am open to ideas. There is currently nothing that is easy to setup and works. 01:24:48 "comradeblin: is here yes..." <- I'm also here. :) 01:29:07 "without the tail emission..." <- this is referenced in the last two sentences of the monero model paragraph 01:32:38 xenu[m]: thx, I missed that 01:33:27 "Rofl. Business shitcoin 101" <- I understand the hatred of stable coins. If people want to sell stuff for Monero, and then keep the Monero, obviously they can do that. That's awesome. Circular Monero economy ftw.... (full message at ) 01:35:55 "Since we're talking about..." <- This sounds like a good idea, and I will look into it. Haven't used Kraken much, but may be worth implementing. I'd like to provide multiple options to "cash out" with. Lowest fees & easiest to setup will be default. 01:37:41 comradeblin: "Definitely, but it is called BTC and not MoneroPay for a reason" -> monero works "fine" with btcpayserver - perhaps lacking some docs?... some optimisations maybe? https://bounties.monero.social/posts/88/1-986m-btcpay-server-additional-optimizations good enough for monerokon to use to sell beer... why not just add the cashing out feature (which looks to be possible in btcpayserver) 01:42:31 Is the business wallet trying to be all in one? 01:42:40 "This sounds like a good idea..." <- Sadly kraken is kyc'd 01:43:15 the problem i have, i assume some others may share it - is we've had this discussion many times with several projects 'im going to make this thing that helps merchants accept monero easily' (some are in progress / have received funding through the ccs already) what makes this one different? to sponsor something to be built from scratch while existing solutions are already being used 01:43:16 DanrdarkIsnotthe: Imo thats the idea, but ill let luke answer on that. lukeprofits: 01:43:27 If your trying to off ramp it kyc is always there in an exchange 01:43:33 "also previous work is well..." <- I feel like I've done enough free work for the community to at least be somewhat trustworthy. I don't claim to be the best coder here, but I know I can build something that will work and nobody else has done it yet. 01:43:33 If someone else wants to make something better than what I am working on, or take what I write and improve upon it, I'm all about that. 01:44:32 Localmonero p2p api when 01:44:41 Wallet to account api 01:47:37 DanrdarkIsnotthe: Wait.. there is one? 01:47:53 We'll be sure to check that out. 01:49:11 I was thinking about that one day. Then forgot about it. Thanks for bringing it up. 01:50:18 another project which has all the same goals and supports many cryptos https://bitcart.ai/ - mrnaif the creator. do you have any advice for people who want to convert their crypto to fiat using your platform? 01:55:34 "convert to stablecoins vis..." <- We will be looking into other options as well, but my first though was sideshift because I've used them before. Merchants are charged 3% for credit card processing fees, PLUS have to deal with disputes (total loss on 1%-2% of transactions). 01:55:34 With a transaction fee on Monero of less than $0.01, and under 3% conversion fee with Sideshift (open to better alternatives), plus a layer 2 stable coin transaction fee, I'm pretty sure we can be under 3%. 01:55:34 Even if it ends up being 4-5% value loss from the start, that may still be good enough for many merchants, due to not having any risk of chargebacks. We obviously want it to be as low as possible though. 01:56:20 what would the merchant do with the stable coin (usdc)? 01:57:55 plowsof11: Either hold, or cash out. 01:58:14 how would they cash out the usdc 01:58:51 im adding up the fees - where is that usdc held? 02:01:09 At an exchange. It is just an option for those who want to convert the currency immadiately after being unlocked, and dont have time to go in the exchange. Trade the xmr to usdc. Just enter the usdc address in the config and either trocador or sideshift does it 02:03:16 "comradeblin: "Definitely, but..." <- I have seen people specifically complain about the setup process being too difficult. It definitely works, but is too complex for non-tech people. 02:03:16 Source: https://twitter.com/FenixAmmunition/status/1609590364486176769?s=20 02:03:16 This guys tweet was actually a large inspiration for me, and a big part of why I started working on projects that increase the acessability of Monero. 02:05:25 what exchange would i be using to hold this usdc? any recommendations (i can't use kraken because as you point out, its kyc'd) 02:06:04 tradeogre i think? 02:07:25 I am not familiar w/non kyc exchanges. Although we could implement a usdc wallet to be inbuilt too. 02:08:40 (they have usdt) 02:09:55 plowsof11: What chain? 02:09:58 is usdc on ethereum? are we going to self custody usdc? tx fees? are we turning the kebab merchant into a crypto trader? 02:10:12 plowsof11: We would have used polygon usdc. 02:10:33 "Is the business wallet trying to..." <- The goal for the business wallet is to make accepting Monero super easy to use, even if the merchant barely understands crypto.... (full message at ) 02:11:00 lukeprofits: taxes? kyc exchange is fine thne 02:13:23 "the problem i have, i assume..." <- I understand that. 02:13:23 Is it possible to set the CCS to only pay out when we finish it and it works? 02:13:23 (I'm building it whether or not we get funding, but it will be a lot faster if I can dedicate working time to it and not just doing it in my spare time.) 02:13:47 Yea, its fine for most of the non cryptohead merchants. The troc and the sides are just optionals, so no messing with going into the exchange, copying address, pasing to app.... Just do it with the usdc/t address once, and whenever a limit is met, it will auto transfer. They'll just need to CO 02:14:46 with your wallet + stable coin - i see a PITA and fees comparable to credit cards and then im left with "usdc" - i assume id have to swap it on an exchange again (fees) to then sell it p2p on localmonero? if we're going down the no kyc route 02:16:03 if i was a merchant i'd turn the crypto payment processor off and go cash only or use https://hotshop.onrender.com/#/ and sell the xmr on localmonero above or at market rates 02:17:25 plowsof: Agree. IMHO, Kraken (or other KYC CEX) API to actual fiat, ready to withdraw to a fiat bank account, would be fine. You either make it easy or make it hard. Hard is XMR -> LocalMonero. Easy is XMR -> USD-Kraken. No reason to mix hard and easy and have the worst of both worlds. 02:18:05 Kyc route:... (full message at ) 02:18:06 lukeprofits: comradeblin Suggested reading: https://www.uschamber.com/co/run/finance/accepting-cryptocurrency-as-payment 02:18:06 https://blog.shodan.io/accepting-crypto-a-vendor-perspective/ 02:19:23 Rucknium[m]: We could do cex apis, but that would again complicate things as the merchant would need to get api key. 02:20:37 "If your trying to off ramp it..." <- True. KYC is always an issue for the offramp.... (full message at ) 02:23:46 comradeblin[m]: https://support.kraken.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000919966-How-to-create-an-API-key if the merchant can't RTFM and get an api key then theyre not going to be a cryptotrader/localmonero p2p seller 02:24:31 "another project which has all..." <- Looks like a cool project. 02:30:43 "what would the merchant do..." <- I want to preface this: fuck coinbase... (full message at ) 02:33:33 Coinbase has fees 02:34:03 if i want to withdraw USD via wire transfer that'll cost me $25 02:34:36 https://bitpay.com/business/ 02:34:36 First checkbox is 02:34:36 ✅ NEVER TOUCH CRYPTO — Get settled in cash 02:34:37 "ACH" is free (not sure what that is) 02:34:56 If you want to replicate the BitPay experience for merchants, but with Monero....may be a good idea 02:34:57 "what exchange would i be using..." <- This project is about acessability to merchants. The merchants I am hoping to reach are already accepting credit cards (which is KYC). 02:34:57 KYC is not the issue we are trying to solve with the project. (Though I agree, KYC sucks.) 02:34:57 Merchants who are not okay with KYC can use localmonero (but they will probably not be the ones using the auto-convert to USD option.) 02:36:40 clearly comradeblin has other ideas so you both need to get on the same page 02:42:11 a "swap site api integration" into bitpay to "support Monero" would do the job 02:42:20 "I am not familiar w/non kyc..." <- No need for that. People can run their own seperate usdc wallet if they care that much, but we don't need to integrate it directly. 02:45:15 what happens when a customer sends a payment through a swap site and oops, shotgun kyc - (trocador has measures in place for this and offers insurance) 02:46:31 Does shotgun KYC ever happen with XMR? I thought shotgun KYC happened because the risk score of the UTXO of transparent coins was too high 02:48:22 they would only have the amount and 'from whom' (ip geolocation or using anonnetwork/vpn) 02:49:14 "with your wallet + stable coin -..." <- For no KYC, just choose the "Forward to cold storage" option and paste your XMR address. Most Monero enthusiasts will do this rather than auto-convert to USD (Auto-convert is for acessability to non-crypto people). 02:49:14 If you want to convert to USD just to avoid price fluctuations, you could send to a self-hosted wallet instead of an exchange, but wouldn't make a ton of sense. Probably better to just go straight to local Monero and sell it. 02:50:48 Rucknium[m]: Morpheus: could speak on this (i only have an opinion not facts) 02:52:00 Without auto-convert to fiat, the XMR Business Wallet doesn't offer much that other software doesn't already provide. 02:52:05 As a matter of fact KYC shotgun has NEVER happened to XMR users 02:52:14 At least not on Trocador, anyway 02:52:51 Once it happened to myself when I was a fool, like 4 years ago, using Changelly, but this was mostly because Changelly is a terrible website 02:53:03 ch*ngelly 02:53:07 Found you 02:53:39 Monero is the only coin that no user has ever had any problems when depositing into these instant exchanges 02:53:59 i retract the worry of shotgun kyc with xmr then, thanks for the info - xmr is 'clean' (i was just pointing out that a large amount of xmr coming from tor would score high on being sus) 02:54:16 "lukeprofits: comradeblin..." <- > <@rucknium:monero.social> lukeprofits: comradeblin Suggested reading: https://www.uschamber.com/co/run/finance/accepting-cryptocurrency-as-payment 02:54:16 > 02:54:16 > https://blog.shodan.io/accepting-crypto-a-vendor-perspective/ 02:54:16 Yeah. People don't use Bitcoin due to expensive transaction fees, and you lose some going from fiat to crypto. Monero has the transaction fees figured out, but obviously going fiat to crypto could be better. 02:54:22 plowsof11: This would not happen 02:54:44 Not sure how you could comply with business wallet with off ramps. You would have to declare with irs or wat eva. Give me my tax!! 02:54:48 Instant exchanges, and regular exchanges rely on AML checking to see if the funds are problematic, but that's impossible with XMR 02:55:26 wow i love XMR 02:55:40 Hypothesis confirmed 02:56:26 "We could do cex apis, but that..." <- Yeah I didn't realize about Kraken. We can have this as an option, but I do want a fast, minimal setup option first (and then option advanced setup for better rates) 02:56:31 There's even a risk score with credit cards. Found that out while using the Stripe API for monerofund.org 02:57:04 And a fiat testnet ;) 02:57:05 Terrorist 02:57:36 When the user deposits a coin and is surprised by a KYC request, this happens because the exchange knows at that exact moment that a certain % of the funds comes from darkmarket/scam/gambling/ransomware. This is done by tracing all the way from know addresses 02:58:19 Guestimate 02:58:34 s/know/known/ 02:59:15 "https://support.kraken.com/hc/en..." <- Merchants don't have to be tech savvy, and a lot aren't. 02:59:15 Tech savvy merchants who want to accept Monero already do. That's why this project is focusing on acessability to less tech-savvy people. 03:00:31 "if i want to withdraw USD via..." <- I've used it before and didn't have fees like that. It was a few years back though, so worth looking at again. 03:01:04 ""ACH" is free (not sure what..." <- ACH is a normal bank transfer. 03:02:27 "https://bitpay.com/business/..." <- > <@rucknium:monero.social> https://bitpay.com/business/ 03:02:27 > First checkbox is 03:02:27 > ✅ NEVER TOUCH CRYPTO — Get settled in cash 03:02:27 Yes, services like that work, but you are not in control of your own coins. You are having your customers pay them, and then they take a cut. Our project is self-custodial with no fees (other than the standard transaction fees you can't avoid, and whatever fee the swap service charges) 03:03:27 " You are having your customers pay them, and then they take a cut" like a swap site or an exchange 03:03:32 "If you want to replicate the..." <- Yeah, that's basically the idea. Similar thing but self-custodial with no fees. 03:04:47 AFAIK, the fact that BitPay handles the crypto -> fiat conversion means they have to do KYC on merchants. They even do KYC on some customers now AFAIK. You could be a more decentralized BitPay with Monero: The KYC happens at the CEX point, not with your open source software 03:05:18 "clearly comradeblin has other..." <- I'm leading the project, and he is helping out a ton. We are looking for the best options though, so definitely open to suggestions towards the goal. 03:05:21 Yeah i would take the responsibility 03:05:37 s/would/wouldn’t/ 03:05:44 It terms of kyc part 03:10:09 "what happens when a customer..." <- If you are a merchant and KYC is a problem for you, I would suggest not using a KYC exchange. 03:10:09 Most merchants use credit cards which are already KYC, so I don't see this as an issue. (Though I would love more non-KYC options) 03:10:36 its ok - XMR does not have this problem, i retract 03:11:38 Ban 03:16:10 * lukeprofits[m] uploaded an image: (54KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/RAMPsuoPfgcbmpAyqMlRcrEE/Screenshot_20230703_231540_Brave.jpg > 03:16:11 "Without auto-convert to fiat..." <- It provides the tracking portion to a spreadsheet or database, which can then be used to automatically do stuff for online merchants. 03:16:11 The business wallet is independent of the Monero Subscriptions Wallet (which I already built) but it will work together with it flawlessly. 03:16:11 Here is an example of something I'm working on: 03:19:31 "Not sure how you could comply..." <- I'm not going to tell other people what to do, but I pay my taxes. I expect others using the KYC auto-convert to USD will as well. 03:25:20 "" You are having your customers..." <- Swapping is optional, and intended for no-coiners who just want fiat. 03:27:49 * lukeprofits[m] uploaded an image: (88KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/matrix.org/rExMmNuqeXrGUBsDxQmXqqrE/Screenshot_20230703_232729_Element.jpg > 03:28:13 Above is an example of how I imagine customers paying for subscriptions with Monero. 03:29:36 The business wallet will handle the merchants side of recieving the payment, recording it to a spreadsheet/database, and doing whatever the merchant wants (auto-forward to cold storage, or auto-convert to fiat) 03:30:48 Once these two pieces are built, I will work on the "middle" piece that reads the output from the spreadsheet/database the business wallet create and automatically takes the needed actions to mark orders as "paid" 03:31:05 s/create/creates/ 03:32:06 (My focus so far has been on subscriptions, but will work for one-off payments as well) 03:38:36 And I think from there we can make more integrations to big platforms that merchants are using like Shopify, but I will need to look into the details more to figure out how we can pull that off. 03:40:47 Are you making this with or without css proposal? 03:50:47 "Are you making this with or..." <- I made the Subscriptions Wallet without any CCS proposal. 03:50:48 I am making the Business Wallet with a CCS proposal. 03:50:48 (I don't think getting paid half my normal hourly rate should be a big ask to work on a project that will be incredibly useful to the community, help simplify the process for merchants, and increase Monero adoption.) 03:54:33 The subscriptions wallet + business wallet + something that interfaces with the business wallets output should be super useful, but all parts are needed. Each works on it's own, but together they enable way more functionality. 03:55:14 Self-custodial, no middleman, no fees 04:03:54 The issue you’ll have is offramp/kyc with people. Cause css is for bettering monero tech, not off ramping. 04:08:41 DanrdarkIsnotthe: Well the project is not about off-ramping, but that is one of its features. 04:08:41 Regardless, if we want to increase adoption (which I assume we all do) I think this is a great step towards acessability and helping less tech-savvy merchants accept Monero, which increases adoption. 04:13:06 We can't have the attitude of "screw you figure it out" towards less tech-savvy merchants (who would like to accept Monero if it was made easy). 04:13:06 I see this attitude way too much from the Monero community. 04:13:06 While I understand it, it does not help further Monero's cause (it actively harms it). 04:19:37 But when you get paid in xmr and the convert to fist looks like its “monero condom” 04:19:50 s/fist/fiat/ 04:23:40 DanrdarkIsnotthe: And to merchants, it looks convenient and easy, and then they put "accepts Monero" on their website that all customers will see. 05:55:27 I always miss the important parts 05:55:39 Anyway.. facepalm 05:56:42 convert xnr > usdc = go get funding from usdc 05:57:36 "Merchants don't have to be..." <- > <@lukeprofits:matrix.org> Merchants don't have to be tech savvy, and a lot aren't. 05:57:36 > Tech savvy merchants who want to accept Monero already do. That's why this project is focusing on acessability to less tech-savvy people. 05:57:36 you think merchants know how to setup a visa POS? Lol 05:58:12 "> <@rucknium:monero.social..." <- Swap services differ how? They arent atomic 05:58:40 Convert to a stablecoin due to volatility. 05:58:40 s m h 05:59:31 And not ETH, but some insecure bullshit like solana or polygon. Brill8ant "ebterprise" lvl software with dollar store grade security 06:00:38 xmr is more stable than the fuat price of gas at the pump. 06:00:38 usd is losing notably value daily 06:01:15 Stable? Usdc reserves? Short term memory? Lack of DYOR? What is it? 06:02:39 Usdc is not stable and even lost its peg recently. 06:02:39 Usdc is not backed by dollars, but by debt. 06:04:14 This whole idea it prefaced with the idea thar XMR is inferior or reliant of scamtech 06:04:26 * This whole idea it prefaced with the idea thar XMR is inferior to or reliant on scamtech 06:04:35 * This whole idea is prefaced with the idea thar XMR is inferior to or reliant on scamtech 06:04:58 "fuck coinbase" 06:04:58 and usdc, rofl 06:05:36 And usdt, btc, eth, or whatever bullshit you want to dump xmr for 06:10:22 Xmr competes with payment processors, such as visa etc.. not with bullshit "invest in my debt" scamcoins. 06:10:22 if youre considering converting to unstable, hot air backed, expensive nft dollars, its PAINFULLY obvious that you dont understand that xmr is a meant to be THE money, not be subserviant to insecure NFTs 06:12:56 And this isnt "CIRCULAR ECONOMY OR DIE". I'm laughing my ass off at the conversions to anything but fiat. 06:15:03 usdc: "a rug" 06:35:02 Wow 06:35:30 5200 different ways 06:35:31 different ways get paid 06:37:16 tldr 06:39:40 Tldr: business wallet has business model and is for profit regarless of logic 06:39:48 Greed blinds 06:40:10 I will read the proposal 06:40:26 Sell me oxygen and 20k worth of badges, why dont you 06:40:40 Oh, it is indeed implementing usdc 06:40:43 s/implementing// 06:40:45 (Jk. Msvb is worse) 06:40:48 s/indeed// 08:55:14 "Usdc is not stable and even lost..." <- > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Usdc is not stable and even lost its peg recently. 08:55:14 > Usdc is not backed by dollars, but by debt. 08:55:14 USDC is more transparent about reserves than USDT (and it lost its peg due to temporary issues with it's banking). 08:56:01 not for the sake of arguing, but USDC is indeed better backed than USDT 08:56:24 I still wouldn't put all my savings in USDC though 08:57:55 "Oh, it is indeed implementing..." <- No, it is a project with the goal of acessability for merchants who are less technical. Auto-cash out to USD is one option, and that seems to be the most reliable, simple, and low-fee way to do it. If you have a better method, we are open to better ideas. 08:59:48 sech1: I dont keep (or recommend anyone keep) any money in USDC. It's just a temporary holding place until the merchant hits "sell" to get the cash to their bank account. If there is a better way to turn Monero into to money in you bank with the same amount of effort (almost none) and with lower fees, I would love that and will implement it instead. 09:00:17 Direct conversion to fiat on Kraken? 09:03:52 Converting to usdc, lol. 09:05:18 Eth fees, transparent nft, dust attacks, backed by hot air, seizable = good idea 09:05:23 trying to avoid cricle 09:05:37 Lets use solana instead 09:05:59 Or better,lets use 550ktx/day btc 09:06:07 systemctl stop solana 09:06:45 cron 1 week reboot 09:07:06 Lets but treasury bonds 09:07:21 * Lets buy treasury bonds directly, skip usdc 09:07:38 Link with ibkr account for fiat of choice 09:08:28 Hodl "stable" (incredibly inflated/ing) usd money supply 09:08:40 USDC exists not only on eth 09:08:44 so no eth fees 09:08:44 Actually, hodl the debt that backs it 09:09:06 "Direct conversion to fiat on..." <- Which we were discussing above as a good idea that we would like to implement. Sounds like the merchant would need to generate api keys though, so I might make it a recommended second step, so we can also have a "simple" mode that requires less setup. :) 09:09:32 Simple mode sounds like greed n stupid mode 09:09:43 How do you keep track of your swaps? 09:09:50 Asecond spreadsheet? 09:10:07 Then on/offramp fees and tx fees? A third? 09:10:49 onlyoffice api? 09:11:03 Simple mode = fiat or xmr 09:11:36 Stupid greed mode = swap to broken bs for reasons 09:11:59 Sideshift,lol 09:12:19 Tell me you want your swap fees, without telling me this is all about swap fees 09:12:43 ofrnxmr[m]: What R V talking about here?? 09:12:50 Chose the mot expensive swap to sneak in 09:13:10 lukeprofits[m]: zadocta: 09:13:46 Simple implies no setup because it uses addresses to deposit shitcoins instead of api keys to do the autoconversion 09:14:12 s/mot/most/ 09:14:36 Shpuld have just ccs the subscription wallet 09:14:46 Business wallet is bs wallet 09:15:06 ofrnxmr: 09:15:06 Please provide better solutions if you dislike the ones that @ComradeBlin and I have come up with. 09:15:06 (The Kraken XMR/USD is a great plan to save on fees, and we will definitely add this.) 09:15:22 Add? 09:15:23 Exclusive 09:15:35 Cut that swap nonsense 09:15:49 I'd like to think we are on the same team here for Monero, but you seem to keep coming for me and I'm not sure why. 09:15:54 ^ better solution 09:16:00 Meanwhile I'll B waiting 4 Haveno to go online 09:16:04 If we want people to use monero as cash, people have to be able to buy things with it without any additional effort. So no exchanges or gift cards on the buyers side.... (full message at ) 09:17:21 Stablecoins = no fkn sell 09:17:58 What is stable about ANY stablecoin? Aside from the name? 09:18:18 i agree with the rest 09:18:41 I have never touched a stablecoin 09:18:56 And the time for tx to appear is because of dandelion 09:19:16 the idea is that you can get stablecoins for a short period, befor you swap back to xmr and sell that p2p 09:19:30 Supposedly 09:20:00 ceetee[m]: > <@ctrej:matrix.org> If we want people to use monero as cash, people have to be able to buy things with it without any additional effort. So no exchanges or gift cards on the buyers side.... (full message at ) 09:20:12 Until they are frozen, dusted, priced out, chsin rolled back, treasury bonds,interest rates, bankruns 09:20:15 yes, fees are higher, but well worth it if you don't want to deal with the burocracy of running a "real" buisiness. Idk, maybe for selling some monero merch smal scall or something 09:21:02 * yes, woth stablecoins total fees are 09:21:14 What tha fack would anyone swap xmr into a stablecoin for 09:21:16 * yes, woth stablecoins total fees are higher, but well worth it if you don't want to deal with the burocracy of running a "real" buisiness. Idk, maybe for selling some monero merch small scale or something 09:21:17 Unless retarded 09:21:24 Fiat = necessity 09:21:34 Stablecoin = ????b? 09:21:53 Its not stable, fungible, rekiable, or on a good blockchain 09:22:03 And not DOLLARS 09:22:03 Stables are huge in Argentina/Latam. Definitely would be helpful. 09:22:14 Not even backed by dollars 09:22:21 louissignet[m]: Scammed 09:22:43 ceetee[m]: Precisely. I'm thinking for the average non-techie person (who doesn't care/isn't aware of the financial system and it's issues and just wants cash in their bank), this is a pretty good solution. 09:22:43 They accept Monero, and get something in their user friendly Coinbase account that they can cash out to their bank in like 1 click. 09:23:05 "buy out debt.. i mean "usd" haha" 09:23:07 Nah. I've seen its use first hand. People don't care they are using a fucking stable in Tron. They just want some form of dollar. Eventually many of those people get into crypto eventually. 09:23:11 cashing out to coinbase is terrible 09:23:17 lukeprofits[m]: > <@lukeprofits:matrix.org> Precisely. I'm thinking for the average non-techie person (who doesn't care/isn't aware of the financial system and it's issues and just wants cash in their bank), this is a pretty good solution. 09:23:17 > They accept Monero, and get something in their user friendly Coinbase account that they can cash out to their bank in like 1 click. 09:23:17 Its NOT 09:23:24 Thats CONSUMER grade bs 09:23:36 Not a "business wallet" 09:23:38 stablecoins are only barely accpetable for crypto2crypto 09:24:00 And stables are BROKEN BULLSHIT 09:24:05 A little offtopic: Briar has now support (beta) for Windows, Linux and Mac ❤️ 09:24:05 https://briarproject.org/news/2023-briar-desktop-0.5.0-released/ 09:24:09 Cmon 09:24:14 Yeah, but it's not your call. It's the merchants call. 09:24:18 Free choice 09:24:33 louissignet[m]: No 09:25:09 Merchants use visa 09:25:09 They are already taking a form of risk by taking credit/cash/etc. Prefering stable is no different. 09:25:12 Lovera: you should repost that in the normal Monero room, it likely gets burried here 09:25:14 Its OUR choice whether we scam them or give then tools that work 09:25:20 Fuck xmr 09:25:27 Im doing themonerkon dance and selling it all 09:25:43 I cant even give refunds 09:25:45 🤡 09:25:57 Briar monero mailbox 09:26:10 louissignet[m]: Yes it is. Wtf? Do research 09:26:11 I don't care if the merchants voluntarely decide to take a risk on stables, I care that users are able to spend in Monero. 09:26:30 Stables arebt backed by dollars 09:27:01 Misleading people into thinking 1usdc = 1usd us a fucking scam 09:27:38 Pour out your koolaid and find me a stable with 1:1 backing. Ill wait 09:27:42 Usdc used to be 09:27:49 It's all about risk/reward. If you are a merchant in Arg using VISA you are guaranteed to get 50% scammed of every transaction with the fake conversion rate. If you use stable you assume all the risks of stable because you deem the extra 50% worthy enough of the risk. 09:27:53 Usdt used to claim to be 09:28:05 ceetee[m]: I agree, fuck coinbase, but they have the most user-friendly app. They are how I got into crypto back in 2017. If there is another super convenient app, let's use that instead. Please give me recommendations. It needs to be simple af, with an easy "cash out to bank account" option with low fees. 09:28:27 I wouldnt know what coinbases app does 09:28:52 Theyve never supported cryptoCURRECNY 09:29:36 Never had a use for whatever coinbase is 09:29:56 A bitcoin bank 09:30:00 lukeprofits[m]: Fenix Ammo was using Coinbase SDK to take "crypto" payments before they were fully pilled into running a fully sovereign non-custodial BTCPayServer solution. 09:30:33 Make it easier for merchants. They will eventually end up in the destination you want them to be. 09:30:51 Fenix wont accept xmr because its too difficult to plug in xmr to their btcpay (??) 09:30:56 "Yeah, but it's not your call..." <- Yep. And that's why we will have options for "Forward to cold storage", and "auto-convert to USD". I hope as many people as possible keep it in XMR, but this gives merchants much better options than they have now. 09:30:59 But it should be easy 09:31:19 "Merchants use visa" <- And we would like to get them away from that 09:31:22 lukeprofits[m]: Forward to cold on each tx? 09:31:50 look ofrnxmr: 09:31:50 Assume I have an online store selling xmr merch. I can only order a batch of stuff with 100pcs. or mor. it takes me half a year to sell that inventors. Ideally I'd like to buy the next batch with my profits from the previous. Prices for this 3rd party supplier are in USD. If the XMR I took lost value in the meantime, I can't buy the next batch, EVEN IF THEY ACCEPT XMR. This is a terrible risk for business one I wouldn't want to take 09:31:50 unless I'm a true believer (like most of us in this room). 09:31:50 By parking XMR in USDC and converting back to whatever, we can mitigate this volatility risk. The menu where you select fiat or stable coin could list the advantages/disadvantages of each, ie. higher risk that a stable coin collapses. 09:32:16 louissignet[m]: This point is important. They are already getting scammed, that's why they want the stable option. 09:32:19 lukeprofits[m]: And youd like to do so by telling them a smart and easy way us to use a scamcoin. Gotcha. Profits 09:32:22 s/mor/more/, s/it/It/, s/inventors/inventory/ 09:32:25 ceetee[m]: > <@ctrej:matrix.org> look ofrnxmr:... (full message at ) 09:32:42 Parking xmr is xmr mitigates volatility risj 09:32:53 "Fuck xmr" <- Is this guy just a troll? 09:33:05 No, just straight shooter. 09:33:10 ofrn is a good guy with strong opinions 09:33:18 MARKET SELLING XMR LOWERS THE FUCKING PRICE 🤯 09:33:54 economy is still fiat based unfortunately 09:34:01 Want volatility? Get merchants to mass dump xmr into a BANKCOIN 09:34:05 On a CEX 09:34:05 The idea is to get the foot in the door 09:34:07 R o f l 09:34:30 Price is just a low time preference concern. I'm concerned about adoption my merchants and increasing options for spenders. 09:34:33 As i said > fiat or xmr 09:34:39 s/my/by/ 09:34:58 kek 09:35:08 Just watching this discussion is quite entertaining. 09:35:26 s/is/i/, s/quite// 09:35:26 Swapping is nonsense. Go all the way and deliver the cheapest and most seamless experience 09:35:27