01:13:22 <DanrdarkIsnotthe> whilst watching  "next friday"
12:57:53 <plowsof11> meeting in 2~ hours https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/864
13:05:18 <tobtoht[m]> <r4v3r23[m]> "what's next up feature-wise?" <- For Feather I currently have my sight on: UR for offline tx signing, intergrating jberman's background sync (+ memory hardening), using dice as external entropy for seed generation, experiment with Flatpak extensions as an initial plugin system to ship "heavier" features like daemon integration, p2pool, maybe atomic swaps. More options for high/esoteric threat models. Plus lots of
13:05:18 <tobtoht[m]> misc. enhancements / UX improvements that I've collected from feedback. Not really a feature but also want to leverage containerization and Qt Test for automated regression testing (like ensuring no network requests are made before user grants permission / portable mode only writes in portable directory, etc).
13:36:19 <r4v3r23[m]> <tobtoht[m]> "For Feather I currently have..." <- great, looks like background sync has finally got some eyes on it for a review
15:00:11 <plowsof11> meeting time https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/864
15:00:30 <plowsof> Greetings 
15:01:17 <Rucknium[m]> Hi
15:01:21 <plowsof> matrix is playing up for me but the IRC bridge is working thankfully
15:02:08 <hbs[m]> 👋
15:02:58 <blankpage[m]> Hello
15:03:07 <plowsof> lets share some community highlights while people come in 3. Community highlights   
15:03:33 <plowsof> the new / final bulletproofs++ paper is here https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-research-lab/20230720#c268352. The first auditors, CypherStack, will provide an update some time in August (because the paper is now different / complete, i can only assume the scope of the audit may require changes / cost adjustments. The MRL team can discuss this
15:03:33 <plowsof> after CS provide feedback of the final paper).
15:05:25 <recanman[m]> Hello
15:05:32 <plowsof> https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-community/20230710#c267159 "Buy and sell information on the owner of any blockchain wallet address—anonymously, via smart contract." Lovera has tested it out for us. No support for Monero (transparent blockchains only)
15:06:11 <blankpage[m]> I wonder if you could poison the system by selling fake info 🤔
15:06:19 <tobtoht[m]> Hi
15:06:32 <plowsof> after reaching out to several auditors/cryptography researchers for adding security proofs to the Seraphis paper(s), the initial feedback has been 'can we arrange a call' whereas for the bp++ audit, which the MRL was able to provide feedback on an actual scope of work, a quote for time / cost was easily obtaininable for comparison, i've recommended
15:06:32 <plowsof> the same to be done for the Seraphis papers to remove alot of friction from the process. jberman and koe will collaborate in creating a more detailed scope
15:08:11 <plowsof11> blankpage[m]: a pretty graph goes a long way
15:08:26 <msvb-lab> Hello, sorry late.
15:08:51 <plowsof> hello
15:09:25 <plowsof> just sharing some highlights of the past 2 weeks if anyone wants to share something 
15:10:10 <blankpage[m]> To confirm, there are some funds raised and allocated for bp++++++ audit (but the eventual cost is unknown) whereas the audits for seraphis are essentially unknown and unfunded at this point?
15:10:32 <plowsof11> [Revuo Monero](https://revuo-xmr.com/) - [The Monero Standard](https://localmonero.co/the-monero-standard)  have been 2 active newsletters during this period and the author of revuo, rottenwheel has joined this channel 
15:10:39 <recanman[m]> Does anyone know when escapethe3RA will be back to write the Monero observer?
15:11:12 <plowsof11> blankpage yes - the bp++ audit funds where for an earlier version of the paper
15:11:16 <recanman[m]> s/observer/Observer/
15:11:30 <plowsof11> currently trying to obtain quotes for seraphis work 
15:12:00 <Rucknium[m]> blankpage: BP++ now has security proofs. Those security proofs need to be checked to make sure there is no flaw in them. Seraphis is lacking security proofs. Those need to be written. Then those proofs need to be checked.
15:12:03 <plowsof11> no updates from escape3RA about return date 
15:12:53 <Rucknium[m]> The original BP++ paper had a vulnerability in it, too. (According to ACK-J)
15:14:02 <blankpage[m]> Is there a post about that somewhere Rucknium? The vulnerability
15:14:53 <plowsof> in the papers changelog "Fixed soundness vulnerability in range proofs that required the introduction of new challenge
15:14:53 <plowsof> variable δ to the arithmetic circuit protocol."
15:15:10 <plowsof> i do not know what this means
15:15:54 <Rucknium[m]> blankpage: https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-research-lab/20230720#c268403
15:16:59 <plowsof> shall we move on to the CCS proposals?
15:17:32 <recanman[m]> Looks like
15:17:37 <plowsof> first impressions of the new bp++ paper from cypherstack coming in august*
15:18:14 <plowsof11> 4. [CCS updates](https://ccs.getmonero.org/)    
15:18:24 <plowsof11>   a. [recanman bitejo rewrite and expansion proposal](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/395)    
15:18:43 <recanman[m]> I thought about making a separate CCS for the jobs, but I am confident that I can finish it in one CCS.
15:19:10 <recanman[m]> I've already been working on it for fun (I am going to make it, but much slower if it doesn't get funded), and things have been going well.
15:19:59 <plowsof11> proposal has not changed since 3 weeks. it will stay on the ideas page and rot away as it stands right now imo 
15:20:11 <recanman[m]> I don't feel that any changes are necessary.
15:20:58 <blankpage[m]> I will restate my opinion that I am not against such proposals but I would not donate because it requires network effects etc. to be successful rather than being a technical problem
15:21:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> Greetings #late
15:21:47 <Rucknium[m]> If you get something successful running, then maybe apply to CCS for maintenance/expansion
15:22:15 <recanman[m]> Since it would be a hobby project, it would take a year at minimum.
15:22:40 <blankpage[m]> Most successful monero market website is a janky ugly mess but people will go wherever the people are
15:22:56 <recanman[m]> I'm planning to promote it with LocalMonero
15:23:18 <plowsof11> has localmonero promoted bitejo?
15:23:35 <recanman[m]> No, they have not
15:24:00 <recanman[m]> I don't think the original creator of Bitejo ever contacted them.
15:24:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> I had suggested removing the jobs portion of the ccs (- name: Month 4 (Begin jobs service backend) (80 hours) funds: 15 XMR done: status: unfinished - name: Month 5 (Finish jobs service backend) (80 hours) funds: 10 XMR ) -25xmr
15:25:14 <recanman[m]> Could you remind me of the reasoning for that?
15:25:59 <ofrnxmr[m]> brings it to 30 xmr for work, 15 for maintenance and hosting etc 
15:26:09 <ofrnxmr[m]> New ccs later for the jobs part 
15:26:22 <plowsof11> the proposal does not require changes according to recanman, which has received many suggestions during that time. if people would like more time to make a decision on merge/close (or willing to vote now) please say/do so 
15:26:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> 30xmr for current stuff
15:26:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> 25 for jobs
15:26:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> 15 for maintenance 
15:26:46 <ofrnxmr[m]> cut the jobs stuff for now
15:28:58 <recanman[m]> I am about to make the changes
15:29:13 <plowsof11> i would vote close on its current form, but do not want to deter recanman from coming back with something more appealing 
15:29:46 <plowsof11> discuss it again next meeting and move on? 
15:29:57 <recanman[m]> ofrnxmr[m]: > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> 30xmr for current stuff... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/db6b5a574163f572a558b826bf5df01a59e7632a>)
15:30:03 <recanman[m]> Total 45 XMR for four months of work
15:30:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> Close in current form, but since making changes, wait 2 weeks and revisit i think
15:31:16 <ofrnxmr[m]> recanman:  thanks. we'llsee before the next meeting if anyone has anything else to suggest. 
15:31:17 <plowsof11> lets revisit next time and discuss more in the interim 
15:31:46 <recanman[m]> By next meeting, I won't be able to commit the four months.
15:32:03 <plowsof11> would anyone like to revisit any of the previous proposals that where voted for being closed 
15:32:05 <ofrnxmr[m]> Thats ok
15:32:19 <plowsof11>   b. [Glitter Finance Cross-Chain Privacy Infrastructure with Monero](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/396)    Close
15:32:19 <plowsof11>   c. [Serving Defcon 31 (2023)](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/397)    Close
15:32:19 <plowsof11>   d. [XMR Business Wallet Development](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/398)    Close
15:33:21 <recanman[m]> I say close them all
15:33:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> recanman[m]: You can begin work anytime and bill later.
15:33:28 <ofrnxmr[m]> should probably change your milestones description from "month1, 2 etc" to "as work is completed". 
15:33:45 <blankpage[m]> Nah close the three proposals 
15:33:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> B. Close
15:33:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> C. Close
15:33:52 <ofrnxmr[m]> D. Close
15:34:24 <ofrnxmr[m]> Unless glittrr wants to sponsor us
15:35:34 <plowsof11> thanks to everyone who is leaving feedback here and also on the gitlab 
15:35:37 <ofrnxmr[m]> * sponsor us /s
15:36:29 <plowsof11> moving on then..
15:36:49 <plowsof11> e. [Continued Feather Wallet development (3 months)](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/400)  
15:37:19 <plowsof11> tobtoht listed some items on the todo list today https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-community/20230722#c268628 
15:37:21 <recanman[m]> I don't use Feather Wallet personally, but I've seen it and it is pretty great
15:37:22 <recanman[m]> +merge
15:38:01 <blankpage[m]> Merge feather always 🪶 
15:38:07 <plowsof11> the background sync with view keys only pull request from jberman is also up for review. an update was provided here (with links to the associated bounty) https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/8619#issuecomment-1632951461 - its nice to see feather wants to integrate it asap 
15:38:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> I like that feather wants to
15:39:38 <ofrnxmr[m]> But unless the fixes make it back upstream in less than a year 😅 TOBBY! Haha
15:39:51 <ofrnxmr[m]> (referring to proxy leak and dns leak, polyseed etc)
15:40:42 <rbrunner> (Comment from a lurker: I am reviewing that background sync PR right now.)
15:40:50 <tobtoht[m]> That DNS leak happened to be an accidental fix, I wasn't aware of it.
15:41:29 <tobtoht[m]> rbrunner: I will review it too (not accepting the bounty)
15:42:00 <plowsof11> tobtoht has been handling tech support / bug reports / sharing updates in #feather:monero.social 
15:42:00 <Rucknium[m]> rbrunner: Could you explain background sync simply? What makes it different from the way sync happens now?
15:42:49 <ofrnxmr[m]> View keys 
15:43:04 <rbrunner> "Background" in this case means "While you don't have the wallet open in the app".
15:43:27 <rbrunner> It's kept open in the background, in a pretty secure way, and collects info about incomming transactions.
15:43:44 <nioc> also on IRC OFTC network #feather 
15:43:45 <rbrunner> If you "open" the wallet again in the app, it will be synced "officially" withing seconds.
15:44:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> So wallet can keep syncing in background without having spend keys in memory (?)
15:44:13 <ofrnxmr[m]> am i remembering wrong?
15:44:18 <plowsof11> afaiu but injb (im not jberman) - the wallet will re-scan all the inputs received using the spend key to double check if they are realchange 
15:44:36 <plowsof11> that where found during background view key scanning
15:44:40 <rbrunner> Yes, that's the "magic" that this PR implements - the spend secret key is NOT around
15:45:00 <Rucknium[m]> Does this use the change "heuristic" to recognize spent txs?
15:45:23 <plowsof11> +merge for tobtoht. thanks for the #feather room nioc (i keep joining the empty #monero-feather lol
15:45:44 <rbrunner> No, it just collects all rings where any of your outputs occur. Later, with the spend secret available again, it sorts things out
15:45:58 <Rucknium[m]> since the view key cannot directly recognize spent funds.
15:46:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> +1 Merge btw
15:46:48 <Rucknium[m]> +1 merge on Feather continued development
15:47:07 <plowsof11> injb and i think no heuristics are needed because the spend key verifies if theyre change / real 
15:47:17 <plowsof11> after the fact
15:47:27 <plowsof11> pls confirm 
15:47:30 <ofrnxmr[m]> 0xffc:  joining us?
15:47:43 <rbrunner> Yes, no heuristics are involved
15:47:44 <ofrnxmr[m]> (that was a ping)
15:48:22 <Rucknium[m]> Does it assume that the user doesn't have a second wallet that is spending funds?
15:49:04 <rbrunner> No, that's no problem: If you collect *all* rings where any of your outputs occur, you catch such spendings
15:49:15 <Rucknium[m]> Does it check every tx that uses a given output to see if it's....
15:49:36 <Rucknium[m]> I see. Check all rings that use the output. Makes sense
15:50:14 <Rucknium[m]> You check those rings with the spend key when your load it. Since there are only a few of those txs, it's a quick check. Right?
15:50:24 <rbrunner> Exactly.
15:50:25 <Lovera[m]> <plowsof11> "[Revuo Monero](https://revuo-xmr..." <- Welcome? 😅
15:50:32 <ofrnxmr[m]> https://github.com/m2049r/xmrwallet/issues/785#issuecomment-1079569991 Rucknium: 
15:50:32 <Rucknium[m]> Very nice :)
15:50:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> Some early discussion is here
15:51:23 <Lovera[m]> I’m late but my vote merges for feather 🚀
15:51:23 <plowsof11> hello!
15:52:11 <Lovera[m]> B, C and D for me Close
15:52:31 <Lovera[m]> <plowsof11> "  b. [Glitter Finance Cross-..." <- > <@plowsof:matrix.org>   b. [Glitter Finance Cross-Chain Privacy Infrastructure with Monero](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/396)    Close
15:52:31 <Lovera[m]> >   c. [Serving Defcon 31 (2023)](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/397)    Close
15:52:31 <Lovera[m]> >   d. [XMR Business Wallet Development](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/398)    Close
15:52:31 <Lovera[m]> Here 
15:53:00 <plowsof11> positive / merge sentiment for feather 🪶 
15:53:18 <plowsof11> moving on...
15:53:20 <tobtoht[m]> Thanks all ♥️
15:53:58 <plowsof11>   f. [j-berman full-time 3 months (part 5)](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/401) 
15:54:02 <tobtoht[m]> +1 berman
15:54:48 <Rucknium[m]> I've raised doubts about whether it's a good idea to code a protocol that has no security proofs yet: https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-research-lab/20230705#c263993
15:55:07 <Rucknium[m]> If the community wants to go ahead with it, that's fine.
15:55:17 <ofrnxmr[m]> +1
15:55:24 <Rucknium[m]> It could be wasted effort
15:55:26 <Lovera[m]> We need Dev work seraphis and all this stuff so +1  merge berman
15:55:37 <recanman[m]> +merge
15:56:53 <plowsof11> perhaps adding in hours to collab with koe to create a detailed spec for auditors / cryptographers to obtain quotes from people easier could be added (i dont know how long this would take)
15:57:00 <ofrnxmr[m]> Rucknium:  do you suggest we try to get proofs done asap?
15:57:11 <Rucknium[m]> ofrnxmr: Yes
15:57:12 <hbs[m]> isn't it a little early to work on including FCMP in the wallet lib?
15:57:32 <Rucknium[m]> hbs: IMHO, yes
15:58:34 <rbrunner> It needs to be tested thouroughly, and I am not sure building tests around it would be much faster than plugging it into the library for testing ...
15:58:40 <Rucknium[m]> We don't know how we would get the security proofs for Curve Trees done. AFAIK, kayabaNerve is knocking on some doors to see who could work on it
15:58:40 <plowsof11> ideally these things can be discussed in MRL/no wallet left behind meetings also
15:59:43 <Rucknium[m]> rbrunner: What's "it"?
15:59:59 <rbrunner> The FCMP code
16:00:53 <ofrnxmr[m]> Im still +1 merge berman. Id rather not derail any momentum theyve created. Even if work doesnt pan out, maybe we'll find out before seraphis is even ready :P
16:02:32 <plowsof11> so jberman merge / get feedback from MRL/no wallet left behind 
16:03:21 <nioc> Merge jberman
16:03:22 <rbrunner> Sounds good to me
16:03:42 <nioc> Also, merge jberman
16:04:01 <ofrnxmr[m]> i think merge before next meeting
16:04:02 <ofrnxmr[m]> If no negative feedback from mrl/NWLB/dev
16:04:35 <plowsof11> AOB
16:05:36 <ofrnxmr[m]> Im assume kayabanerve:  would say merge
16:05:41 <plowsof11> msvb-lab shared in events that there will be a meeting in 1 hour 
16:05:41 <ofrnxmr[m]> Anything else on the agenda?
16:05:50 <plowsof11> no
16:06:48 <ofrnxmr[m]> monerokon is doing a lot of restructuring 
16:07:35 <plowsof11> #monero-translations:monero.social recently pushed a bunch of french translations to -site (yes, we still have passionate volunteers creating/reviewing translations 🙏)
16:07:47 <ofrnxmr[m]> So if involved with monerokon, or want tl be, pay attention to Monero Events  because planning is already underway 
16:09:19 <plowsof11> "Finance Committee" to address concerns over reimbursement issue iirc , and other things.. creating a none profit to not have to rely on Digital Renegades for things / become independant 
16:11:14 <plowsof11> seems like we've came to an end, thank you all for joining and enjoy the rest of your weekend 👍️
16:11:51 <msvb-lab> Good meeting and dankon everyone.
16:13:34 <ofrnxmr[m]> ah. One last note
16:14:12 <ofrnxmr[m]> Libera rooms will work differrnt with matrix soon. Youll need to join the matrix rooms
16:14:22 <ofrnxmr[m]> For example... (full message at <https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/libera.chat/33fc535610d1939252b53ae89295588ee2921bb5>)
16:15:15 <ofrnxmr[m]> If you are joining from matrix and are in Libera.Chat #p2pool-log etc. I would recommend to move onto these (as they are plumbed and working already) before the cutoff date of portalled room https://libera.chat/news/matrix-deportalling
16:24:15 <datahoarder[m]> Thanks for mentioning, was going to do the same here but was waiting for meeting to be over :)
16:27:18 <tobtoht[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "But unless the fixes make it..." <- Yeah, I recently became aware that Monerujo is using a wallet_api extension for their pocketchange feature that I wrote for Feather eons ago and realized I could have saved them some time had that been available in core, so I think you're right to point this out and I will give upstreaming stuff higher priority going forward.
19:03:55 <M0xffc[m]> <ofrnxmr[m]> "0xffc:  joining us?" <- Sorry, was sleep. Didn’t know it, otherwise would’ve woken up. Will ask you about details in pv 
20:27:29 <plowsof> the 'built on Monero' game townforge has an upcoming version (including making blocks less blocky) demo video here (shared by Sysky in #townforge:libera.chat) https://www.yewtu.be/watch?v=zmRa-DV5R0I
21:30:23 <bridgerton[m]> <imleyne> Hey there, I'm new to the cryptospace and wanted to buy some Monero/BTC while avoiding KYC. I'll be visiting SFO/SJC area today if anyone is available and open to selling me some coins in person.
22:05:43 <blankpage[m]> Better off using localmonero.co rather than posting randomly in a matrix room
22:15:04 <bridgerton[m]> <imleyne> Thanks for the tip! Sorry, I must have mistaken the intent of this room!
22:28:09 <recanman[m]> <plowsof> "the 'built on Monero' game..." <- Never actually saw Townforge
22:28:17 <recanman[m]> I don't play video games, but this is tempting