03:01:53 <m-relay> <-​-------------------------:matrix.org> The xmr bitflip 0-1 incident
04:34:19 <binaryFate> I would prefer if a new wallet is created for the CCS fund, rather than piggy back GF2
04:37:52 <m-relay> <p​lowsof:matrix.org> sounds good to me as a temporary measure to get things up and running for the immediate short term
05:03:41 <m-relay> <m​onero-hackerindustrial:monero.social> Is there any ongoing IR process for imaging drives and collecting logs for those machines involved in the CCS wallet breach? It should be helpful in identifying any sort of IOCs left behind that can help us with attribution.
05:04:57 <m-relay> <m​onero-hackerindustrial:monero.social> If there is no ongoing process I can help put togerther a simple action plan for getting the imaging and can assist in going through it to look for any potential scripts/bins left behind by an attacker
05:05:04 <m-relay> <m​onero-hackerindustrial:monero.social> If there is no ongoing process I can help put together a simple action plan for getting the imaging and can assist in going through it to look for any potential scripts/bins left behind by an attacker
05:08:05 <luigi1111> I would appreciate that. Small caveat I won't have access until after Thanksgiving
05:25:15 <m-relay> <m​onero-hackerindustrial:monero.social> No worries, life happens and I know it might take some time. I'll work on getting that list together along with simple instructions on how to do it etc. I can spin up a server to dump those images into once we have them. I will also start compiling a list of known TTPs from crypto targeting groups.
06:58:33 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Has the computer been shutdown?
07:19:58 <spadin_spider> mornin gentlement
07:23:28 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> It's never night in Monero land, morning is impossible.
07:25:31 <spadin_spider> damn when do y'all sleep then
07:54:56 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> sleep when your dead
08:34:45 <spadin_spider> last time i did that i lost a job cause i fell asleep anyway when i was supposed to work ;_;
08:34:50 <spadin_spider> good riddance tbh
10:38:28 <Inge> never so bad it isn't good for something
14:26:33 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> https://monero.observer/anonymous-open-letter-calls-structural-changes-monero-ecosystem/
14:27:47 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> pretty reasonable asks. Don't know if I agree about the hangouts tho
14:29:15 <m-relay> <p​lowsof:matrix.org> "drop official support for proprietary operating systems/wallets" seems pretty reasonable? lol
14:29:38 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Didnt 4rkal say the opposite last week
14:29:46 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Lets all not listen to 4rkal
14:29:48 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Lolz
14:30:22 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Official support shouldn't be dropped. But no devs or "core" should be using windows when it comes to handling funds
14:30:33 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Lol?
14:30:53 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> So why should users?
14:31:12 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> If funda arent safu on windows, why is it ok for users and merchants?
14:32:01 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Sound very young and naive
14:32:06 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Cause merchants etc are holding their own funds, no one cares if they get hacked because of bad opsec. CCS funds are used to *fund* people
14:32:08 <Lyza> because sometimes I just wanna keep a small spending wallet and if it gets lost it gets lost u know
14:32:23 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> What?
14:32:26 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Employees dont exist?
14:32:53 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> So, if i own a toy store, all that money is mine?
14:32:58 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> I dont pay my employees?
14:33:01 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Mate if you want to keep your funds on windows please do. If you are holding funds for other people please don't
14:33:10 <Lyza> If you don't support Windows you'll just push more people to using Cake and feather so whatever
14:33:10 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Mate
14:33:14 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> I said the opposite last week
14:33:20 <Lyza> it's a dumb proposal that won't happen anyway
14:33:21 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> You said you wanted a 33/33/33 split
14:33:45 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Was talking about nodes.
14:33:55 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> This has nothing to do with that
14:34:08 <Lyza> Well Monero GUI includes and handles monerod
14:34:10 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> It's about trusting a black box with your funds
14:34:18 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Mate, i dont use windows and havent in 15+ years.
14:34:18 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> YOU want more people using windoes
14:34:36 * nioc checks color of case
14:34:43 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> had nothing to do with the sofrware??? K im done
14:34:55 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> 4rkal is cuckoo
14:35:02 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> thansk mate
14:35:03 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Lol
14:35:04 <Lyza> finally ofrnxmr is fone
14:35:07 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> :P
14:35:07 <Lyza> done
14:35:34 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Done, like, im laughing too hard to continue
14:37:46 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Look generally speaking windows for nodes is no a bad idea since we need some more operating system diversity. But a hardened linux install is so much more secure in terms of holding funds etc. Core should not be using proprietary software tho.
14:38:12 <Lyza> well there's no reason to keep a wallet on the same machine as your node lets be clear about that
14:38:17 <Lyza> not for real money
14:38:37 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Imagine using windows for cold storage
14:38:44 <Lyza> shudders
14:38:48 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> makes no sense
14:38:59 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> The proposals in this "open letter" want to make a cyber warrior out of every Monero user. Means well, but with a snowball chance in hell of happening.
14:39:17 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> imagine using windows
14:39:27 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> It's pretty extreme, ill give you that
14:39:29 <Lyza> some of us play video games what u want from me
14:39:40 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> > By getting the stats we can try to get like 33% windows 33% linux 33% bsd or something
14:39:40 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> .
14:39:41 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> muh vidya gaymes
14:40:08 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> This is 4rkal lol
14:40:24 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> .
14:40:45 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Mate hear me out
14:40:57 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Can we all agree that operating system diversity is important?
14:41:12 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Can we all agree that windows as cold storage doesn't make sense?
14:41:16 <m-relay> <p​lowsof:matrix.org> the letter describes methods that still depend on evil humans
14:41:31 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> ^
14:41:48 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Still believe that
14:41:49 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Seriously. Alll over the place
14:42:04 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> We need more windows daemons 
14:42:04 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> dont use windows for your daemon
14:42:05 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> pick a side
14:42:21 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> .
14:42:30 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ne need 33% of out daemons running on windows
14:42:48 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> But you should not a run a daemon on windows
14:42:55 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Make. Your. Mine. Up
14:42:56 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> .
14:43:00 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Mind*
14:43:30 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> There was nothing cold about it
14:43:52 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Windows wasnt used for cold storage
14:43:56 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> windows was not used for cold storage, and dropping windows support is a great way of shooting yourself in the foot in terms of adoption
14:44:08 <Lyza> ^^
14:44:34 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> can we drop it now, thanks
14:44:44 <m-relay> <p​lowsof:matrix.org> im going to write an angry anonymous letter back
14:44:53 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> as for moving official code hosting to a different platform, not the worst idea as long as they keep a mirror on github
14:44:57 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Drop support for windows? :D yes
14:45:03 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> jk
14:45:05 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> pls
14:45:16 <m-relay> <c​trej:matrix.org> you stole my joke
14:45:17 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its funded
14:45:27 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> not by CCS I hope
14:45:36 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> And 4rkal posted his thingamajiggy
14:45:41 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> No
14:45:43 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Kuno
14:45:49 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> iji2hhxnh4jfyx6q2wenr7bo2p2jmsmk7dzu5pvh2s2gupud472mihad.onion/
14:45:59 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> yes, that's a mirror, not the official host
14:46:05 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> (still great, keep it running)
14:46:13 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Arent we all mirrors?
14:46:21 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> do you always talk to yourself like that?
14:46:57 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> fully funded for a year
14:47:01 <m-relay> <c​trej:matrix.org> I have windows so I'm not allowed to touch the code
14:47:04 <m-relay> <c​trej:matrix.org> So no mirror either
14:47:16 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> I'll see if I can set up a mirror as well
14:47:19 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> tor & i2p
14:47:28 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Too stupid to use i2p
14:47:36 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Tried but failed
14:47:41 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> i2pd makes it easy
14:47:46 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> 4rkal.. i2p is easier than tor. Dm
14:48:18 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> I would not say easier, but node distribution and routing is much better handled than on tor imo
14:48:30 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> But much slower rn
14:48:32 <nioc> ceetee has windows?  I feel better now
14:48:36 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Setting up tunnels is easier than onions
14:48:39 <m-relay> <l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> That open letter is peak echo chamber.
14:49:10 <nioc> solves some issues and creates many others
14:49:12 <m-relay> <p​lowsof:matrix.org> why are we even serving getmonero over clearnet
14:49:18 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> I2pd, add 5 lines of text
14:49:18 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> tor, add folders, change permissions, etc etc
14:49:24 <m-relay> <n​aphtha:kyun.host> DID ANYONE
14:49:25 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Wait
14:49:27 <m-relay> <n​aphtha:kyun.host> ASK FOR A GUIDE
14:49:29 <m-relay> <n​aphtha:kyun.host> ON EEPSITES
14:49:33 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> no
14:49:37 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> could someone test if this is working https://khplhtfsbnzitlmj3lmdl7m36ale7iuf2kljvfmomvn7uwrvqx7a.b32.i2p:3000/
14:49:38 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> It has an onion, i just dont know it :D lol
14:50:01 <m-relay> <p​lowsof:matrix.org> lol true , im surprised the letter didnt say turn er off
14:50:03 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Dont need the port btw
14:50:12 <m-relay> <n​aphtha:kyun.host> https://rentry.co/ytu5if
14:50:15 <dsc_> +1 OFTC
14:50:17 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Might have got it working but forgot lmao
14:50:20 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> works, but don't include https
14:50:38 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> cool
14:50:44 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> and yeah, port not needed either
14:52:24 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> ```Also considering that such OSes are aiming to become cloud based, this will go completely against the "Not your Keys Not your Coins" philosophy that the Core and the community is trying to follow, for example, by not adding closed source or proprietary wallets in getmonero.org's wallet section as stated in this paragraphs```
14:52:30 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Could be a problem in the future idk
14:53:42 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> But still its up to the user
14:53:50 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> To decide what to do
14:53:53 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> oh yes, fuck windows, discourage windows usage, but not by telling people to go fuck themselves if they want to try out your project
14:54:58 <dsc_> +1 XMPP
14:55:45 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> yeah XMPP is great, matrix is pretty bloated and metadata-ridden
14:55:45 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> but very normie friendly and still self hostable
14:56:04 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> both matrix and xmpp are kind of shit when it comes to ux tho
14:56:05 <dsc_> +1 Moving away from MS
14:57:12 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> eh, depends on the client. Dino and Gajim are alright
14:57:21 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> Element has come a long way
15:02:55 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Element is so trash wince v162
15:03:08 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> for mobile anyway.
15:03:08 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> element x is coming
15:03:55 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> element is kinda slow
15:04:15 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> It wasnt so bad a few versions back
15:04:39 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> But all electron bs desktop apps are
15:04:50 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Just using the web cause the desktop one is complete bs
15:05:22 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Even made this lmao https://github.com/4rkal/element-desktop-usable
15:05:35 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Well, the element apps a nothing more then web app wrapped with some kind of browsers and it's libraries, right
15:05:42 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> web works good?
15:05:42 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> probably element isnt being developed to keep up, becauae of focus on element x?
15:05:50 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> People don't make PC apps anymore 😢
15:06:02 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> For mobile, its an actusl app
15:06:39 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> element x looks great!
15:06:55 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Oh, I thought they used the same code mostly and just wrap it in a mobile version of the same thing
15:07:23 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> yeah Electron is just Chromium headless and with a more 'lenient' sandbox
15:07:47 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> I'm so sick of it
15:07:54 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Oh, so it use Google tech too, wonderful 😂
15:08:03 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> Indeed
15:08:10 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> Electron apps make me gag
15:08:25 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> Etcher is still the most baffling of them all, it's just `dd` wrapped in a "pretty" electron app with ads next to it
15:09:05 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Very easy to use for retards tho
15:09:18 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Doesn't let you dd your own disk and stuff
15:09:25 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Yeah, I did see that one lol
15:09:25 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Because why not having an application that if like 10000x bigger than the tool it embedded?
15:09:25 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Web tech philosophy at it's best!
15:09:53 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> ship it on Flathub!
15:10:00 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> for the added bloat
15:10:04 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Of course!
15:10:40 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> I thought snap was bad /s
15:11:04 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> both are terrible, snap arguably worse
15:11:05 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> These snap, flathub, etc etc are all bandaids
15:11:20 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> aur enters the chat
15:13:27 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> The problem is distribution, with AUR (or with Gentoo, for say), you compile you're packages so they get dynlinked to you're current lib, so it work
15:13:27 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> But unlike with Windows, if you build something that is Dynlinked, forget about it working on most other people Linux, so you have to compile for each distribution (and maybe more than one version of it), or wait for the distrib package maintainer to do the job
15:13:28 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Snap is bad bad imo
15:13:38 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> They are 1. A proprietary app store
15:13:44 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> And 2. Have stolen apps in there
15:13:50 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Like p2pool
15:14:01 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Linux support many version of the same libs but there is only Gentoo and Nix, I think, that actually do that
15:14:16 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> and they use sneaky methods to get you to use it (like with chromium)
15:14:41 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Snap alro require soystemd
15:14:42 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> as for the AUR all things considered (check the pkgbuild) it's pretty damn handy
15:14:50 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> and a daemon
15:14:54 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> christ..
15:15:15 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> I dont like flat_hub_ but i dont have any problems with flatpaks
15:15:27 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Featherwallets flatpak is 🔥
15:15:31 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> whats wrong this systemd 😢 lol
15:15:37 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Flatpaks are the less bad imo
15:15:45 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> systemd is the prime example of scope creep
15:15:46 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Non, actually, I ment .appimage
15:16:03 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> anti unix, and arguably a corporate takeover
15:16:08 <m-relay> <k​illercat103:matrix.org> tarball
15:16:16 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> to top it off the lead dev ended up working for microsoft lmao
15:16:25 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> feathers flatpak doesnt use any of the 3rd party dependencies of flathub etc. It uses its own runtime so on and so forth
15:16:30 <m-relay> <o​cean:matrix.thisisjoes.site> soystemd glows
15:16:34 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> you guys using runit and stuff?
15:16:42 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> I use s6 myself
15:17:03 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> I just use the good old OpenRC, I should try runit or s6 eventually
15:17:35 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> https://skarnet.org/software/s6/
15:17:55 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> my only gripe with openRC is the lack of proper daemon supervision
15:19:04 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> I just found that a lot of apps don't work or need some sort of modification to work for openrc so gave up on it. I ain't compiling stuff just to use openrc instead of soystemd
15:19:32 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> which is exactly one of the problems with systemd
15:19:33 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> programs that hard-depend on it for the dumbest reasons
15:20:28 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> but most programs just need an openrc service file in /etc/init.d and you're set
15:20:35 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Hard dependency on systemd is really bad yeah, that thing is just too big and doo too much stuff
15:21:02 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> the whole reason I moved away from windows was how opaque and unwieldy it is
15:21:44 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> it's simple and "works" until it doesn't, and then you're at the mercy of Indian tech support
15:22:24 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Windows in is current form is quite reliable actually, more than most Linux distribution (on where you have to do some work to fix up)
15:22:24 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> but the joke is systemd may be open source, but it's just as opaque and unwieldy, and doing everything its own way, shitting on the linux philosophy while it's at it
15:22:36 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> the codebase is so goddamn massive and it's such a fast moving target you can't reliably audit it
15:22:54 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> The whole systemd suite, like journalctl, logind
15:23:05 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Too much redhat dependency
15:23:07 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> and to top it off, the snarky attitude from poettering when it comes to vulnerability reporting
15:24:00 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Well, everything use glibc except on select distribution, if I where glowing, I would give a few M to one of there devs for a nice bug.
15:24:00 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> There more distrib using glibc than systemd, and every single application use part of glibc
15:24:16 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> # \:(
15:24:16 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> your system did a fucky wucky!!
15:24:16 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> hang tight while we collect information, don't worry it's all sooper dooper scary compootr stuffs uwu
15:24:26 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> no thanks, man
15:25:08 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> That's for the grany
15:25:08 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Sysinternal (owned by m$) offer a tool that read the bsof, because there all saved for later audit
15:25:18 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> except if saving bsod is off
15:25:48 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> I know there's ways to troubleshoot windows, they're just awful
15:26:23 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Linux is not better when the UI freeze and the console can't come up to show the error, but again you do the same, but instead of using a bsod reader, you do parse what's in /var/log.
15:26:46 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> except it doesn't need a specialised tool, just `less`
15:27:03 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> or grep, or whatever text editor
15:27:13 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> well, most people have to use journald as logs are now in a binary format right
15:27:37 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> which is another thing that fills me with blind rage
15:27:38 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> journald
15:27:40 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Only distribs for adult have text logs
15:28:55 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> BTW, Soystemd implemented BSOD in there last version!
15:28:55 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> It have to be enabled, for now
15:30:07 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> I'm happy with my alpine & artix systems
15:30:19 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> anyway sorry for that hugely off topic rant
15:30:31 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Artix is nice indeed
15:30:31 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Except that time I could not do update for two weeks lol
15:30:42 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> KDE packages?
15:30:49 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> yeah that was a mess
15:31:02 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> not, some lib32 required by steam
15:32:49 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> somehow the people at arch got lazy at updating that one and I think artix got in advance with the version of that lib in it's lib64 form.
15:32:49 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> For some reason, the lib32 flavor of the lib had the same lib but in lib64, as dependency (wanted the same version and arch/artix don't have that "many version of same lib support" so it just blocked update for two weeks
15:34:53 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> oh damn
15:34:55 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> that sucks
15:35:47 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Kind of thing that can't append on Windows as the OS have stable ABI and can be updated independently to the user apps because it support many version of the same libs.
15:35:47 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Gentoo is the only one that for these circumstance, that instead of not upgrading at all or braking application, it tell you that X package need x libs of that version so he will keep that lib until you emerge @preserved-build so you're app continue to work after the update
15:37:36 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> I did hear NixOS can do it too, but I have no experience with that one personally.
15:39:10 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> yeah nixOS is pretty damn stable
15:39:22 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> and for most programs on Windows the solution is to just ship every version of every dependency under the sun lmao
15:39:27 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> same with flatpak
15:43:30 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Windows only shit all version of windows / microsoft dependencies under the sun, so you can run windows application from 1999 and it still work.
15:43:30 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> That's a good thing imo, and Linux support it but it have to be implemented by the distribution (I guess it's to much work compared to forcing app maker to just use snap/appimage/flats)
15:43:35 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Windows only ship all version of windows / microsoft dependencies under the sun, so you can run windows application from 1999 and it still work.
15:43:35 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> That's a good thing imo, and Linux support it but it have to be implemented by the distribution (I guess it's to much work compared to forcing app maker to just use snap/appimage/flats)
15:44:05 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> And need to take account that Windows apps need a LOT LESS dependencies
15:44:16 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> as you can simply use windows API for most things really
15:44:28 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> which by itself is like, what, 50gb?
15:44:31 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> so you're GUI application endup only taking 103kb of space
15:44:54 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> windows UI are more inconsistent than gtk and qt
15:45:28 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Nop
15:45:28 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> If you measure WinSxS directly, you endup with more stuff.
15:45:28 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> It was made initially for supporting many version of the same libs, but now that folder also contain Windows restoration images and stuff so it's more inflated than needed
15:46:53 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> There very consistent, one API to rule them all, no need to install QT, GTK, and there kiloton of dependencies, just to have UI app
15:47:15 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Linux is great and lean for server stuff (things I would never use Windows for... lol)
15:48:02 <nioc> Monero is for everybody™
15:48:12 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> The only Windows application that use QT or GTK are Linux ports
15:48:14 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> there's like 10 different context menu UIs, different dropdown UIs,  different window handles, etc etc etc
15:48:28 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> it's a goddamn mess lmao
15:50:25 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Linux have that problem but for a lower extend as it never got much UI improvement for menu and stuff like that.
15:50:25 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> While windows did a ton of them and some of there codebase is over 10 years old.
15:50:26 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> You can clearly see that with the control panel, you have like 3 UI for the same things and microsoft won't remove the old one until they have parity
15:50:37 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> With is way better than how KDE3 -> KDE4 was handled 😂
15:53:25 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> I was so sick when KDE4 was out and forced on my that I went to Enlightenment instead lol
15:53:25 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> New application wanted QT4, with was working with KDE4, but KDE3 was able to do sooooo much more than KDE4 when it was released.
15:53:26 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> At least now it's more like a rolling release (for that KDE/plasma stuff), fortunately
15:53:42 <m-relay> <o​cean:matrix.thisisjoes.site> windows ui peaked at xp. since then it just became more convoluted
15:54:00 <luigi1111> Windows 95 was my favorite
15:54:29 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> I would say 2000
15:54:30 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> XP is mostly a Teletubbies skin over the nice UI
15:56:52 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> But Microsoft did work harder for Windows since 10. UI is actually nice (I kind of find 11, a downgrade)
15:56:52 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Afaik it still have a bugged UI scaling 😂
15:57:50 <luigi1111> Yeah I'm only meming
15:58:07 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> I still run it, on a network isolated machine
15:58:07 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> That one did have the DLL Hell problem
15:58:08 <luigi1111> They had a lot of terrible terrible releases
15:58:21 <luigi1111> 2000 good stuff
16:07:42 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Whats the best wallet for cold storage? Gui vs feather
16:09:45 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> For cold storage, a piece of paper with the seed (or qr codes) and the wallet address in a text file
16:10:01 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> for spending from the cold wallet I guess feather is nice
16:10:42 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Heard somewhere about feather x anonero
16:10:45 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> that would be great
16:11:13 <m-relay> <i​ntr:envs.net> indeed it's a mess. Luckily for most quality programs a gui isn't even needed
16:13:39 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Personally I prefer feather, I did not test it for col storage by say, But it is soooooooo better if you use an hardware wallet
16:14:28 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> GUI be like, your Ledger locked, please restart me (not in these word... but quite anoying)
16:15:59 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Feather continue to work even if you unplug the ledger...
16:15:59 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> And if you receive a transaction it ask you to retry ledger connection (yes/no)... So you plug ledger, unlock it, and press "yes... And it resume syncing from that transaction you received
16:16:33 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Other than that, it have coin control
16:17:18 <m-relay> <g​fdshygti53:monero.social> And integrated reddit reader so I don't have to open reddit
16:47:10 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Paper generator
17:32:01 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> I've got an offline wallet on an offline computer. I have copied over to my hot computer the view only wallet
17:32:13 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> How can I send a transaction?
17:34:37 <m-relay> <s​needlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> haven't tried it yet, but my understanding is you create the transaction in view only wallet, export the tx keys, import them in offline wallet, sign them, export them again and import in view only wallet, from there you broadcast to the network
17:36:50 <m-relay> <s​needlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> https://monerodocs.org/cold-storage/offline-transaction-signing/
17:37:57 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> There really aren't any good guides etc on this topic.. Quite frustrating
17:41:14 <m-relay> <p​lowsof:matrix.org> i mean one was linked above (even i followed it and its fine, just several steps of copy and pasting back and forth)
17:45:14 <m-relay> <p​lowsof:matrix.org> sadly usb sticks are the common denominator in "All Attacks on Air-Gapped Systems" https://www.darkreading.com/attacks-breaches/usb-devices-common-denominator-in-all-attacks-on-air-gapped-systemsd
17:45:43 <m-relay> <p​lowsof:matrix.org> this is why hardware wallets exist
17:45:54 <m-relay> <p​lowsof:matrix.org> or file transfer via QR
18:10:14 <dEBRUYNE> 4rkal: Did you look at this one already? https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/2868/is-there-any-way-to-construct-a-transaction-manually
18:28:21 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Followed the guide plowsof linked and managed to do my first offline tx!
18:28:46 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Also why tf did my monero-gui view only pick up on the tx?
18:28:58 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> nvm lol
18:29:00 <plowsof> sneedlewoods linked it #stolen-valour 😃
18:29:13 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> yeah sr lol
18:29:37 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Pretty cool stuff tho
18:34:48 <m-relay> <s​needlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> no problem plowsof may get the credits
18:35:47 <m-relay> <s​needlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> and congrats 4rkal for your first offline tx 🎉
19:22:55 <m-relay> <m​onero-hackerindustrial:monero.social> Ah, so the lack of tooling around the manual transaction creation in monero is such a pain point. Monero txs have changed over the years and are a lot more complex than the really simple bitcoin or ethereum transactions. (eth is really simple with the account model). The unsigned transaction file is not a super well known file type and it would be nice to eventually make a parser <cli
19:22:55 <m-relay> <m​onero-hackerindustrial:monero.social> around it instead of relying on monero-cli for reading it.
19:24:08 <m-relay> <m​onero-hackerindustrial:monero.social> The other thing that might be nice is having more transaction signing libs in languages other than cpp. For example the monero python package relies on a running rpc to send to sign the tx to a running monero wallet. Having a pure python version would be really nice.
19:25:15 <m-relay> <m​onero-hackerindustrial:monero.social> I added that to an eventual backlog for monerosigner but atm I rely on the monero-wallet-cli arm build on the device.
19:27:54 <m-relay> <m​onero-hackerindustrial:monero.social> The usb airgapped system would offer a good level of protection against the most obvious threat model (Malware compromise). There is some risk of potential 0 day vuln weaponized in the unsinged tx format that some apt was able to craft. But that raises the bar significantly.
19:31:17 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> I has question since “we” has 2 months to basically restructure monero infrastructure, when does the ball start to roll? Does these particular working groups rooms need to be created and discussed?
19:32:48 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Ie task and responsibilities of these groups, people being nominated for these groups
19:32:52 <fluffypony> 123bob123: it's just a proposal
19:34:25 <fluffypony> I think unless someone steps up to own it, gather consensus, etc. it'll just die on the vine and be one of those proposals that never amounts to anything
19:37:39 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> You sir have called peoples bluff😬
19:45:08 <m-relay> <c​trej:matrix.org> Dan r/dark (Is not the man & Braxman Tomsparks Advocate ): didn't the proposal say 2025?
19:45:38 <fluffypony> yes - I typo'd 
19:45:43 <fluffypony> and I corrected it subsequently
19:45:59 <fluffypony> the idea was to get some lightweight structure in place and then the workgroups evolve individually from there
19:46:13 <fluffypony> if we don't have a timeline then stuff sits forever or dies on the vine
20:00:52 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Tldr
20:01:37 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> This is more acceptable
20:01:55 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Workingroups🔜™️
20:07:18 <nioc> .soon™
20:13:43 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Move infrastructure to google :0
20:13:54 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> One is down
20:13:54 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Next issue
20:16:53 <plowsof> Is Jan 2025 2months away? Wow
20:23:50 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Im in future remember
20:23:54 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Do I just send my CV to hr to get into a work group or what?
20:24:05 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> hr⊙go
20:24:07 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Lol
20:24:18 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> No but really what's the process
20:24:37 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Well
20:24:47 <m-relay> <4​rkal:monero.social> Is there a process?
20:25:07 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> We wait for ploswof ccs to finish and we add this to that for less pay
20:25:56 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Tbh css is a test case
20:31:38 <luigi1111w> self organization here we go
20:32:03 <plowsof> Its over, extra tasks on a postcard please
20:33:39 <plowsof> I am on day 4 of correctly guessing my cold storage password where my new pgp key is. I think after 5; i could apply to be the ccs coordinator
20:50:52 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Have you tries 123?
20:58:14 <m-relay> <l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> We are only two months away from foisting everything on plowsof. I can't wait.
21:45:20 <m-relay> <x​mrscott:monero.social> I don't think it was announced anywhere, but at of end of Oct the monero.space sysadmin(s) activated experimental Sliding Sync so any folk who were previously barred from using a newer client like Element X should no longer be barred
21:47:47 <m-relay> <x​mrscott:monero.social> I don't think it was announced anywhere, but at of end of Oct the monero.social sysadmin(s) activated experimental Sliding Sync so any folk who were previously barred from using a newer client like Element X should no longer be barred
21:53:58 <plowsof> Thanks xmrscott!
21:55:08 <m-relay> <x​mrscott:monero.social> I had nothing to do with it apart from request they add it so folk could use newer clients and see what other home servers had it
21:55:31 <m-relay> <x​mrscott:monero.social> I had nothing to do with it apart from request they add it so folk could use newer clients and see what other home servers had it to gauge how much of an experimental state the feature is
23:58:36 <m-relay> <r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> No
23:58:49 <m-relay> <r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> For core team you are "invited" in, whatever that means. Just join the channel
23:58:59 <m-relay> <r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> Is the fluffypony plan being implemented?