02:30:59 From looking at this site and others we can pay for 3 seconds in a movie and nigerian libertarian seminar but we can't decentralize project funding? <= open to proposals 02:38:29 Cock.li: 10 Years of Throbbing E-mail - https://vc.gg/blog/cockli-10-years.html 02:38:36 dsc_ ^ 03:02:50 > From looking at this site and others we can pay for 3 seconds in a movie and nigerian libertarian seminar but we can't decentralize project funding? <= open to proposals 03:02:50 Didn't cakepal pay for that "3 seconds in a movie" ? 03:03:57 which movie is this with the 3 seconds? 03:04:05 Netflix one had like a whole 30 03:05:04 I'm assuming we are talking about the one you always bitch about 😆 03:05:15 https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xorhrh/monero_xmr_is_featured_in_the_netflix_show_the/ 03:05:35 We made it into episode 1 03:05:55 I don't think the CCS had anything to do with that one. 03:16:57 Is there anything he doesn't bitch about? 😂 03:20:39 Sometimes a generous amount of bitching is warranted 🤣 03:47:12 The show got 39% audience score on rotton tomatoes 💀 04:01:21 Didn't cakepal pay for that "3 seconds in a movie" ? <= could be I don't know. Often there are large donors 04:51:27 > > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> We made it into episode 1 04:51:28 > The show got 39% audience score on rotton tomatoes 💀 04:51:28 Keyword "audience" 04:51:59 Need an audience to have a score 04:58:07 https://m.imdb.com/title/tt15264452/episodes/ 04:58:08 6.7 05:00:32 https://eztv.re/ep/1857267/the-lorenskog-disappearance-s01-dubbed-webrip-x264-ion10/ 06:47:28 has anyone tried to make a decision tree for the ccs wallet proposals 06:50:10 is the solution convenient -> not usable....! does it require multisig -> no way. does it require a magic solution from core / them to take more responsibility -> yes? not happening. direct funding -> dream on! 06:50:18 Isn't that your job? Do better! 06:55:56 im unemployed 07:01:24 if ive missed some proposals please add https://paste.debian.net/1298653/ 07:11:28 Yeah, last two would have my vote. 07:14:29 That's settled then. Let's move on 😆 07:14:47 hooray im employed 07:50:06 For the record, this is not true. We're using RINO for all our businesses (anything else is just a stupid risk). I can't speak for binaryFate personally of course. 07:50:47 You just did. 07:53:31 We make sure that you can verify what you get. The frontend is completely open source, we're using verifiable builds, you can re-build yourself, and we have set up https://integrity.rino.io/ to check the integrity of the assets delivered to you. That's the maximum we can do short of delivering a signed desktop app to you (which we're working on). 07:54:40 What I meant so say: I cant' speak for binary's personal usage, but I can attest that we're using RINO for all business operations that involve binary and Monero 07:55:36 if we pick either of the last two options that plowsof listed, how do we decide who the custodian is? I personally would prefer a confidential vote and outcome, but how are we going to set that up? 07:57:59 I didn't say that it's inadequate, incorrect or unusable. However, we have limited resources. We'll implement the PGP-based solution if it's faster. It's as simple as that. 07:57:59 It's unlikely that the PGP-based solution is faster, and I think it makes less sense, but I wanted to list suggestions/feature requests made by users that we're currently investigating 08:08:06 midipoet "this is up to core" -> "do not expect a magical solution from core" (my decision tree is falling apart here) 08:09:59 <123bob123:matrix.org> People sign NDAs😬 08:11:28 <123bob123:matrix.org> Maybe policies can write a cyber sec policy for core 08:12:52 Sure, but as it stands we would need to use Google Docs cause an alternative hasn't materialised 08:18:09 Why don't you guys buy monono stickers instead? https://nitter.salastil.com/rottenwheel1/status/1726469216356770137 09:09:53 Swedish translations for Kuno: 09:09:53 General Translation, I used XMRadar s structure - https://paste.sethforprivacy.com/?3a52a3b794a656b6#HXtBdwr21PYv9LJhsGFcUeyZgneQcovdJ7ewXjtfZGwj 09:09:54 FAQ, this is made from scratch so feel free to set it in the structure and push it XMRadar - https://paste.sethforprivacy.com/?e48a0c2d0b10614f#DyNGJ8hpeuFiujyhTAifzabFrznVrfCJb76SLGNemQJ8 09:10:52 vosto is Swedish confirmed. 09:20:53 And kids, that's how it's done 😂 11:25:24 2 has my vote :) . I feel any custodian approach (1, 3, 4, 5, 6) is essentially asking someone to play Grand Protector and I feel like the CCS has grown beyond the necessity for those training wheels 11:27:42 1. developer proposes CCS (as now) 2. Proposal goes through vetting (discussion etc, as now). 3. Proposal moves to "funding required". 4. Funders pledge amounts (funds still remain in their own wallets) 4. milestones met, funders requested to send their monero to wallet managed by CCS developer. 11:28:28 funders can post their tx proof that they sent it in forum. 11:28:45 if funders fail to honor pledge, then they can no longer contribute. 11:28:59 there could be fancy ways to do all this with some webpage shenanigans probably 11:30:03 i really don't understand why direct funding is the bottom of the barrel here. Everyone gravitates to some authority taking care of everything. I don't get it. 11:36:13 Generalfund? 11:36:55 Sure havr 11:37:16 Apologies to irc (missing replies) 11:37:20 gingeropolous: That requires a reputation/ID system for funders. 11:37:20 I like it, but it isn't without downsides. 11:38:07 i feel there is already a reputation / ID system for the CCS "evaluators" or "voters" during the ideas stage 11:38:16 those that push it to funding required 11:38:48 .. just abt everything that doesnt have a reason _not_ to, gets merged 11:38:57 No need to push things _to_ funding 11:39:14 there are things that haven't made it from my own recollection 11:39:36 Because they were blocked 11:40:14 Even 51/49 ccs get merged 11:41:22 51/49 referring to the 👍/👎 tally 11:42:08 And asking me to pledge $, but not send it, is dreaming 11:42:18 y 11:43:16 Bcuz you cant even pledge a monerokon ticket and expect the person to show up _unless_ theyve MADE the financial commitment 11:44:09 those don't seem equivalent. showing up to an event is a drastic effort wall compared to opening your wallet and sending monero 11:44:10 Asking me to promise ill come, and not actually taking my money, is asking for an empty crowd 11:44:14 i hate travel. 11:44:17 There's also a timeliness aspect to things. How long do you give funders to complete payment when the work is done? 11:44:36 whenever funders feel like it 11:45:09 "if funders fail to honor pledge, then they can no longer contribute." 11:45:28 New handle, yolo 11:45:31 something like that. In addition, the pledge would go over 100% so there are backup pledgers. 11:45:37 New rule "new handles cant contribute" 11:45:57 You could make it so a donation to the general fund is required to have an ID. The problem isn't fatal, but it is a problem. 11:45:59 as ive mentioned lotsa times 11:46:06 Limitijg donors is retarded. Sorry ginger 11:46:39 well its just an idea to deal with donors potentially backing out. there are probably other ideas 11:46:51 Donors backing out is solved 11:46:53 By taking their money 11:46:54 sticking with some grandpappy authority figure holding the funds is just doing the same thing over again 11:47:02 "but better" 11:47:06 At the time the money is available 11:47:16 I don't think the idea is that bad, or even bad at all. The devil is in the details. 11:47:33 I think the idea is 100% unworkable in "monero" 11:47:39 Maybe it works for magic or gofundme 11:47:51 But not for anon donations to anon contributors 11:48:06 dude i bet there are like 5-10 major contributors to the CCS as is 11:48:14 What are the barriers to getting the idea working? Sounds like we need a fork of the CCS that allows funder ID creation (details TBD), assigns funders IDs to pledges, notifies funders when work is complete, and credits those IDs when funds are sent. 11:48:30 And i het theyd love to show their id for PERMISSION to keep funding this boating accident 11:48:50 Magicgrants.. 11:49:13 Monero doesnt do "ID the contributors" 11:49:25 I am not involved with that - it's under responsibility of the core team as far as I understand. I think it's something of a back-stop emergency fund, rarely accessed. This makes totally sense to keep that in an air-gapped cold wallet. 11:49:26 RINO is meant for wallets that need to be regularly or even programatically accessed, by multiple parties. It's *NOT* the best choice for cold storage. Regarding the CCS, it's ideal for a smaller part of it, keeping the excess in a cold wallet. 11:49:47 Generalfund isnt a backup wallet 11:50:00 It paya for infra and is currently paying ccs 11:50:12 Used to pay wages 11:50:21 Used to be used to* 11:50:44 To say "bf and monero business use rino" 11:50:44 And "what ofrnxmr said isnt true" are false 11:50:57 What does bf use rino for, related to his position of core? 11:51:16 Not generalfund 1, not generalfund 2, not bounties wallet. 11:51:23 As of today Monero doesn't do Seraphis. But it can do things tomorrow! :) 11:51:23 Funders can't be expected to dox themselves, but having some public reputation that they can offer as a sort of assurance to prospective workers doesn't seem so awful to me. 11:51:31 Maybe his _personal_ endeavors use rino. 11:51:50 spackle_xmr: yeah, I think those are the major ones. A CCS system where you hit a pledge button. Either a new ID is created, or you get a hash of some existing ID. You enter contact info if desired (the funder can also opt to just keep track of the project themselves). The final part of the system would require the CCS developer to post their viewkey so that progress of fulfillme nt could be tracked (CCS dev would be required to create a new wallet for the effort). 11:51:53 Assurance? 11:51:57 $ 11:52:10 I dont csre if vik says "i am pledging" 11:52:20 that just tells me "i work for vik" 11:52:25 No. I work for donations. 11:52:43 If vik wants to pay me, he can pay me directly 11:53:01 I dont need to slimeball ccs to get 3 whales to support my new movie 11:53:15 The movie was pledged, for example 11:54:25 There are ~ "20" donors of each ccs. Usually the same person donates multiple times 11:54:30 Yeah, i also think the pledge method would be problematic. 11:55:43 you could even create a "weighted pledge" counter for the CCS dev to monitor. Pledges with a track record are weighted >50%. Pledges with no track record get something else. Could even allow the dev to be the one that then clicks "project is funded", so they decide if there's enough pledges to move forward. 11:56:05 thats craziness 11:56:08 Id never donate then 11:56:10 Ever 11:56:21 Let the whales and larpers sign up 11:56:39 Why would i go out of my way to give mt money away 11:56:43 What a joke 11:57:12 adding red tape to donors is hilarious 11:57:21 Were not donating blood yknow 11:57:23 i mean, you end up with a centralized database. But at least its not a centralized pot of money. I don't see why a hacker would want to get ahold of a database of pledge IDs 11:57:39 "oooh, im gonna get this database and then trick CCS devs into thinking they are funded! bwahahahahaha" 11:57:42 Worried about orotectinf 0 xmr 11:57:55 To the point of it being detrimental to PAYING devs 11:58:26 Meanwhile, devs starve while we run around like headless chickens 11:58:28 Protecting 0 xmr 11:58:38 (there is 0xmr in ccs wallet) 11:58:52 8000 in gf 11:59:09 Yet were talking about ccs wallet, which will never be as big a target again 11:59:23 (2000/2700xmr wasnt even ccs money) 12:00:30 Meanwhile 8000xmr in generalfund, and if wr DIDNT get robbed, we might have refunded 2500 xmr to a stranger 12:00:36 You wsnt to whine about ccs? 12:00:47 gingeropolous: I was imagining all of the funder data would be public. Their addresses would be their IDs. The notification method is a little more dicey, but it is interesting to think about. 12:00:51 stop ignoring generalfund 12:01:22 spackle_xmr: , their addresses? 12:01:24 ofrnxmr: the convo isn't about GF, it's about CCS 12:01:39 Its about securing money 12:01:58 Ccs has no money to secure 12:02:14 Ccs patrons are being paid by generalfund 12:02:36 Yet the convo has lead into "how to make it harder to donate" 12:02:43 and not "how to protect our assets" 12:04:21 gingeropolous: Monero addresses would be convenient IDs. There are already payment proofs and message signing methods, so that would be one way to handle crediting funders. 12:04:25 > spackle_xmr: , their addresses? 12:04:26 I think they mean monero address 12:04:46 true. 12:05:27 Ffs used to keep track of who donated what 12:05:45 But, opt-in iirc. 12:06:03 "ginger has donated 40k xmr" for example 12:06:45 .. and re monero addresses 12:06:59 Those are easier to generate than a new matrix handle 12:07:04 and i agree midipoet that the pledge method may have problems, but to me they seem solvable, whereas an authority's wallet getting hacked is unsolvable. With this, we can remove the attack surface. Not just spread it around. 12:07:28 its not removing an attack surface 12:07:43 Its doing backflips for 500xmr 12:08:42 (Ccs didnt lose 2700xmr. Period) 12:08:45 well, i guess its technically spread around to the opsec of individual monero users. but thats the existing general attack surface of the monero userbase. 12:09:45 No 12:09:49 its 5 ppl 12:10:01 though it would be ideal that the CCS system doesn't log IPs, or that users are required to use tor / i2p to interact with it. Such that a trail back to an IP addy with monero on it isn't left in the CCS 12:10:07 The "general populous" doesnt donate 12:10:22 Wik not using opsec 12:10:23 Vik 12:10:33 And some whales use alts too 12:10:53 My god this shit is cringe 12:11:05 i appreciate you, Trasher 12:11:28 Thanks 😎 12:11:55 who was talking about mission impossible? Dsc, them too 12:13:53 lulz. I guess the pledge method could be done via the monero network though. There's some address that a pledger has to send piconeros to, with the piconero amount equaling the digit amount of monero they are sending.... but then anyone could send to that address i guess. 12:14:26 Let's try this another way: If someone had this system working, what objection is there to offering it? 12:14:27 Sure, if it is too difficult to use then people won't use it, but I don't see a downside to giving people the option. 12:14:27 IDs have to be valuable, and there needs to be good communication for funders. Neither of those are insurmountable. 12:15:55 So many smart ppl with no real world experience it seems 12:16:02 Monero weakness 12:16:35 gingeropolous: this might be true 12:16:46 Indeed. And objection to offering it is what? 12:18:28 You're talking about 2 interconnected systems 12:18:41 1 proposal, some people pledge and some people pay up front 12:18:55 "cake pledged 100xmr" 12:19:18 And gets to "pay later" 12:20:52 But regular folks (who we still need to onboard) - lets make donating a complicated matter, or only risk their funds, and STILL require escrow (aka..were not changing anything) 12:21:31 Jusy adding a new path for whales to "pay later" 12:21:51 Still does nothing to secure our money 12:22:06 Wait, people are paying up front? We're still requiring escrow? That isn't what I think is being discussed. 12:22:07 We almost GAVE AWAY 2500xmr during the robbery 12:22:42 Youre talking about going ID-only, spackle? 12:22:57 You said "giving people the option" 12:23:10 I assumed that meant id be able to take tge easy donation option when i see a ccs 12:23:21 Otherwise im just scrolling by and letting VC investors fund ot 12:23:25 Right, as in having a different CCS architecture that works only on pledges. 12:23:43 The option of an entirely different CCS. Not a mixed approach within a single CCS. 12:23:45 So.. not cca 12:23:54 So.. not ccs 12:24:10 More like 12:24:11 VC fund 12:24:18