07:30:59 my dad always says crypto isnt real money 07:31:20 but then he rants about CBDCs 07:31:28 i tell him thats why monero 07:31:40 he says hes got cash 07:32:13 i tell him theyll just stop printing new cash and its gone in a few decades 07:32:20 he says "the people wont take that and elect other politicians" 07:32:30 i tell him the ECB people arent elected 07:33:47 he still says crypto isnt real money and could go to zero instantly which is partially true but also said that he supports that people are fighting back against cbdcs with stuff like monero 07:51:20 I've given up on trying to convince normies that there is an interest, I now only educate people who made the first step, the others can continue to cover their eyes, I'll be there when they want to learn more 08:34:21 Yes, I do not blame them for being skepticaL 08:34:24 Yes, I do not blame them for being skeptical 08:34:53 I was very skeptical of crypto myself because I only had the "dogecoin enthusiast" understanding of how blockchain and stuff worked 08:35:36 After actually looking into it and taking the first step, that is when I understood a little more 08:40:46 decentralised trust is difficult to understand, as previously trust has always been embedded with government, the rule of law, and the political system for so long. It is also too abstract for most people to realise that the rise in prices is directly correlated to the reduction of purchasing power of a unit of their fiat currency (tending towards zero). 08:41:33 this helped some people understand better 08:41:34 https://lifemathmoney.com/the-history-and-evolution-of-money/ 09:04:51 finnish monero supporters with spot market power prices 09:05:01 https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1829hsi/finnish_consumers_asked_to_go_easy_on_the_grid/ 09:05:02 go hard 12:03:57 <123bob123:matrix.org> So this up coming community meeting we sign off on plowsof being chief bag holder for active ccs? 12:15:30 Its a secret 12:15:49 Lets just say 12:16:17 This weekend, were raising $ and paying devs 12:16:28 Its thanksgivingb 12:54:25 Im glad we implemented the short term solution before the holidays started and everything is back to normal /s 12:55:24 There are no holidays where i am 12:57:40 Productivity must be through the roof there 13:05:30 There are no holidays where i am <<>> confirmed buddhist 13:50:18 <10934dfasl:matrix.org> "A 10 minute passion presentation. This can be on anything related to security and technology and should reflect your personal interests. " Do you think that doing a presentation on Monero for 10 minutes would be bad? This is for an entry level cyber security internship 13:50:37 <10934dfasl:matrix.org> (I am a university student) 13:53:46 why would it be bad? fits the criteria 13:53:51 Ask your tutor 13:53:59 <10934dfasl:matrix.org> Dk.. lol 13:54:06 <10934dfasl:matrix.org> Do not really have one and if they do - they do not know what xmr is so.. 13:56:09 10 mins is good i think 13:56:39 There are no holidays where i am <<>> confirmed buddhist 13:56:39 Buddhists have more holidays than any other religion I can think of 😆 14:12:43 trasherdk really? 14:15:12 maybe hindu? 14:15:21 Yup. And as a specialty in Thailand, if a holiday falls on a Saturday or Sunday - Mondays is a substitute holiday/day off 😂 14:15:43 They may travel for a few weeks e.g. attending MoneroKon (which is more of a pilgrimage than a vacation) 14:17:04 Monero was started by thankfulfortoday so everyday is a holiday in moneroland 14:30:38 <10934dfasl:matrix.org> to give like a somewhat in depth summary / overview of how xmr works and why its important etc. 14:32:17 Tons of Lightning users rugged with Wallet of Satoshi pulling out of the US appstore 14:32:47 Now XMR and perhaps KAS the only game left in town for properly decentralized micro payments. 14:33:18 Lightning in the US just became a tad more complicated after todays news. 14:48:00 Uh 14:48:12 Using a custodial wallet 14:48:16 Called "wallet of satoshi" 14:48:31 You deserved to be wrapped in a rug and tossed off of a bridge 14:48:57 claim to love satoshi, but disrespect him by naming bullshit after him, and then USING it 14:49:13 Ln isnt bitcoin 14:49:26 Satoshi had nothing to do with kn or custodial sokutions 14:49:33 Ln* 14:51:08 To act like WOS was "decentralized micropayment" is... like.. saying.. you wont get burned if you jump in the fire naked 14:51:35 Losing wos is a big WIN for decentralized payments 14:52:01 Trash ass ln, wrong room anyway 14:52:04 Anyway, how is that a rug, removing an app from app store? It's not like it get's deleted from users phones, or what? I never owned a apple product. 14:52:30 Right? 14:52:30 if i was WOS, id actually rug em 14:52:36 Show em what they signed up for 14:53:36 its such massive disrespect to name a product after someone who cant speak 14:53:58 But Craig... 14:54:08 And then to absolutely do everything you can do make sure the wallet does not align with craigs ideals 14:54:39 Does he have ideals? 14:55:12 Good question. But too hard to answer 14:55:15 But if it's not custodial, you have to pay hefty fee to create, destroy or re-balance your channels. 14:55:40 Yes, and? 14:55:44 Im missing the decentralized micropayments 14:55:46 think about the Central Africa Republic on where BTC is legal and average monthly salary is 10$ a month 14:55:57 Its either centralized micro 14:55:58 or ita deventralized and unusable 14:56:20 Wos is just paypal 14:56:27 But.. worse 14:56:47 FFS, get an autocorrect for that phone already 😂 14:57:21 Ill just use google keyboard 14:57:23 Jk 14:57:53 ofrn is just deventralizing 14:58:21 All thumbs. 14:58:22 I like that word 14:59:18 Im often mobile 14:59:22 So, 1 thumb 15:00:33 there's an app called say board it doesn't do punctuation but let's see if it's any better 15:02:19 If it can auto-correct `deventralizing` then I'm in. 15:12:13 it's either centralized micropayments, or it's decentralized and unusable 15:12:22 Not bad ^ (test) 15:13:59 It's readable, so definitely a step in the right direction. 15:14:23 > "A 10 minute passion presentation. This can be on anything related to security and technology and should reflect your personal interests. " Do you think that doing a presentation on Monero for 10 minutes would be bad? This is for an entry level cyber security internship 15:14:23 @plowsof send dm on matrix regarding ^ 15:15:44 You CANT do micropayments on L1 BTC. It would be considered DUST 15:15:58 wrong room 15:15:59 You CANT also take micropayments amounts via credit card 15:16:04 Talking about how btc is broken 15:16:05 Monero makes sense 15:16:06 for that use case 15:16:07 Thx tips 15:16:15 Yeah 15:16:20 And wos isnt decentralized 15:16:33 So are what r u talking about "a loss" 15:16:36 Yeah thats what I said 15:17:12 "Now XMR and perhaps KAS the only game left in town for properly decentralized micro payments." 15:17:12 implies that previously, wos was a part of the gang (it wasnt) 15:17:15 Theres no dencetralized options for easy micropayments but XMR as KAS ( perhaps, still unproven ) 15:17:32 Ah true 15:17:33 Wos was never a decentralized anything, nevermind a properly decentralized one 15:17:41 Wownero 15:19:52 Im surr ive used wow more than kas 15:20:25 Wownero is like a fun altcoin for monero but I don't see it as a proper payments option. 15:20:42 A good testnet for monero 15:20:44 It's like the monero version of doge, nothing more 15:20:46 Wownero is technically damn near identical to monero 15:21:12 doge > ltc 15:21:51 Wownero:xmr isnt really like doge:ltc 15:24:27 Wow for a while has more usage than zcash 15:24:36 Had* 15:24:56 And unlike arrr and doge, you can actually mine wow 15:25:18 Its not just a meme. Its a functional one 15:26:06 With the major issue being network security vs monero (wen mergemining?) 15:30:39 mermemememining 15:30:48 mergemememining 15:44:11 Don't WOW have some antipoll shenanigans? 15:44:11 I don't think merge mining is possible until they reverse that. 15:44:12 Else I guess only people using the only poll they should use (p2pool + local nodes) will be able to mine it 15:57:11 <4rkal:monero.social> has this been discussed yet? https://monero.observer/cypherpunk-transmission-017-rethinking-monero-ccs-cypherpunk-proposal/ 15:58:04 <4rkal:monero.social> Quite intresting 16:06:05 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/monero.social/iHmgoihyRpRWAqgUJnwAFBFR 16:07:35 And now it's back 🤔 16:15:36 I think we been through that suggestion before. I still think it seriously flawed. 16:16:14 Smells like a social experiment to benchmark energy usage of user clusters. 16:17:17 inb4 meds 16:26:38 Ive not finished the observer post but it seems like its the 'direct funding' option 16:29:09 Using a modified back end (primary address/private viewkey is added to thr front matter of the merge propsal) 16:29:14 Well, yes, the direct funding option, but with an important twist. Devs are not lone warriors that have to hunt for funds themselves, but the CCS as a "social institution" continues to exist. 16:29:36 Everyone who wants direct funding take one look at the work in progress list 16:30:00 The abandoned ones specifically. 16:30:20 How on earth do you want to repurpose those funds as we have done for a few already. Asl for a refund??? 16:30:52 Not to mention the difficulty some proposers will have with accounting 16:33:41 The real devs are covered by the general fund for now / the future sonwe need to promote general fund donations more than ever 16:35:01 Direct funding is laughable and an extra hurdle to jump over before your proposal gets merged. I have personally seen the most trustworthy people get ccs' merged and do almost absolutely nothing 16:36:22 You should never pay 100% up front for anything in the real world until its done, otherwise you're dumb 16:36:30 Dear plowsof is unusually direct today :) But yeah, the whole thing also strikes me as a system that only works if it's all sunny days but starts to fail with the first drop of rain 16:36:57 Why.are we even entertaining direct funding 16:37:07 Not even cypherpunks are always nice to each other ... 16:39:07 You Do not need permission for direct funding. The ccs is about checks and balances 16:39:25 "Why.are we even entertaining direct funding" Because it could be the least bad option. Otherwise, escrow agents need to be found, they need to be inconvenienced, and donors and workers need to trust them again. 16:39:45 There is no CCS if direct funding is used 16:40:14 CCS is a vetting process 16:41:00 Uhm mr proposer can we have an update ? Its been 1 year can we have an update?? Gee i guess we'll have to uhm... Fundraise again for the dame thing 16:41:26 why do I need to go thru the CCS if I am directly funding? 16:41:47 Visibility, for one. 16:41:59 An some mild form of endorsement 16:42:09 Will credible escrow appear? 16:42:22 You don't need to, but you might profit from going through the CCS 16:42:46 maybe I need to decentralize my wallets so that I don't lose my monero since I am currently self custody 16:43:21 The vetting process that puts trustworthy (so they seem) to funding and then they go to the 'forever a work in progress pile' 16:43:24 The escrow agent's behavior is shaped by moral hazard 16:43:25 Time and time again 16:44:07 I am not sure about the escrow. I think multisig would not only be an improvement safety-wise, but also regarding personal risks, and moral hazards 16:44:43 Personal risks: People with the 5 dollar wrench won't visit me much less if they know it's a multisig process 16:44:56 Moral hazards: I can't spend alone, obviously 16:45:32 I think moral hazard should be renamed since its literal meaning doesn't match its technical meaning. 16:46:04 We are speaking about temptations to steal funds, right? 16:46:31 By the custodians themselves I mean 16:46:37 The moral hazard is: the loss of Y XMR from the CCS does not cause a Y loss of funds from the escrow agent's personal funds. Therefore, the escrow agent will be more lax with CCS funds than personal funds. 16:46:44 Which is what happened 16:47:19 "In economics, a moral hazard is a situation where an economic actor has an incentive to increase its exposure to risk because it does not bear the full costs of that risk." - wikipedia 16:48:16 I should take back "Which is what happened" since we don't have all the information about how exactly the funds were lost. Sorry. 16:48:31 The real devs/seraphis and such have funding secured via general fund if this isnt solved.. We're talking about a CCS vetting system before and AFTER funding for all kinds of projects. First time contributors that would never get merged of DF would be used 16:48:57 I see. One more problem, yeah. But also better with multisig because it has a level of safety that is somewhat hard to undermine. If I am pretty careless with my keys the system as a whole is not yet broken 16:49:38 Gatekeeping++ .. there is liability for the voters actually. 16:50:12 rbrunner7: Yes, but what if all multisig key holders think that? Then that's tragedy of the commons :P 16:50:38 You spoil all the fun :) 16:50:39 "The other key holders will be more careful." Not if everyone thinks the same thing 16:51:48 Right. But on the other hand we should not go overboard and pretend that our funds are lost and stolen all the time, again and again. It worked for years, after all. To somehow doubt that we can't get that right is somehow .... pessimistic. 16:52:25 plowsof: with direct funding it is hard to get "prime time" attention. CCS has the advantage of being prominently linked on the "official" getmonero.org and has a top level link in monero subreddit 16:52:31 Here's another idea: non-escrow fundraising after each milestone. If the milestone is not fully funded, the worker has a choice: accept partial/no payment. Or the General Fund covers what donors do not as a backstop, but the worker cannot use the CCS system again. 16:52:53 It does start to threaten the core and fundamental assumptions of cryptocurrency, that people *can* manage their own funds, be "their own bank" as the saying goes. 16:53:08 for direct funding going through the CCS system could help with vetting 16:53:36 "cannot use the CCS again", with anonymous devs? 16:55:24 and have the tacit approval of the monero community 16:55:26 Seems like a play to get the exposure of the CCS system, without the accountability. 16:55:56 ^^ 16:55:57 If we put forward a project/person for direct funding... If things dont go to plan, the donors, will think.. who recommended i donate to that? Hmm under the old system the funds could have been repurposed. Oh well nvm 16:56:24 I guess ill donate to the next one 16:56:55 just don't let the funds pile up 16:57:14 We have a pile of 9000 in the corner 16:57:25 we were starting to deal with that issue 16:57:36 it piled up over a long time 17:00:55 accountability would be based on reputation of the dev/project. if it is low, the community could demand strict milestones with low amounts for each step and require frequent updates 17:01:35 Look over at that corner woth 9000 monero in it. Notice how it os being sent to luigi to pay devs for the upcoming weeks/months... Also note it being used to pay the bills every several months 17:01:38 if the fail to deliver, remove the proposal 17:01:50 if they fail to deliver, remove the proposal 17:02:08 Then ignore it and start splitting hairs for the CCS 17:02:56 Oops remove, sorry everyone.. <- those funds are literally stolen now, as we cant repurpose them 17:03:38 Not sure what you want to say, plowsof. We should not talk about the CCS before we have a more solid solution for the general fund? 17:04:00 Work in progress list alone would have ended the ccs a long time ago of those where direct funded 17:05:31 if only we had plowsof sooner 17:06:44 2600 ish xmr would have flew out the door via direct.. and we'd be merging things for funding still? 17:07:12 Haveno 2.0 but this tiime its real 17:07:24 Community vetted 17:08:05 A monero payment processor version 35 but this time .. its happening 17:09:24 All those incomplete proposals happened under the previous system. And you want to go back to that system? Mostly a serious question. 17:09:36 Escrow doesn't prevent those outcomes 17:09:46 Repurposing funds works 17:10:28 If you can get credible escow, then maybe going back to the previous system is the best option. There are no details of what the new escrow system would look like. 17:10:35 Direct funding guarantee those outcomes 😂 17:10:52 Rucknium: of course those funds remained available for the community to decode what to do with 17:11:02 Decide* 17:13:06 Without credible escrow , there is no CCS 17:15:51 why can't the CSS evolve to be something other than a traditional escrow service 17:17:23 plowsof says his motivation will crash if direct funding happens. Yet he fulfilled his Wishlist as a Service proposal after BCH direct funding :P 17:17:39 Get credible escrow. 17:18:48 I am a product of direct funding and facilitate people to do it . This _is_ the cyberpunk way 17:19:58 The CCS is a vetting system which also has after care / chances of allowing others to take over an abandonned proposal 17:21:15 the CSS can continue as a vetting system to keep projects/dev in check 17:21:21 negotiate milesones and funding levels 17:21:58 demand deliverables, status reports in community meetings 17:23:58 People who can obtain direct funding (e.g. rucknium .. has a proven track record as being an actual researcher and stull doesnt get his infra insta funded at rucknium.me/donate simply due to visibility - this would be an example of where DF for semi retroactive/not things is perfect) 17:24:27 Few and far between ^ 17:24:37 it could be a list of curated direct funding projects 17:25:06 AFAIK, no one wants to be the CCS escrow agent(s). Even after 3 weeks of this discussion. If you can get them, fantastic. 17:25:53 Thats great but its not the ccs. Escrow is.. an escrow.. allows.for repercussions and the chance for the vetters to "make it right" of we got it wrong 17:27:54 setting strict milestones and reporting requirements would help minimize some of the risk of direct funding 17:28:48 the repercussion would be expulsion and a hit on reputation 17:29:13 How old is plowsofs alt? 17:29:26 Is that really a threat lol 17:29:40 Unless we want KYC 17:29:42 if a dev in using CCS direct funding option, it would be in their interest to play ball 17:30:10 They can just begin farming an alt , yesterday 17:30:29 Sociopaths are built different 17:31:06 a 1 day alt would have higher scrutiny in the ideas stage than someone line moneromoo 17:31:23 a 1 day alt would have higher scrutiny in the ideas stage than someone like moneromoo 17:32:22 having a proven track record of contributing to monero would be important 17:32:23