00:04:52 Context (i think): the bridge being down was supposed to be temporary, so datahorder did m-relay as a shirt term solution. 00:04:53 this news doesnt change m-relay, but it means "termporary" became "permanant". 00:04:53 correct me if im wrong DataHoarder @datahoarder:monero.social: 00:05:08 yes 00:05:30 that is what I mean, worth exploring running other tools that align better with what was intended interaction wise 00:06:11 so far the one people were accustomed to was the matrix bridge service, which you can run on your own, but then you take message loss as a feature 00:09:09 <123bob123:matrix.org> Temporary permanent 00:09:36 <123bob123:matrix.org> Is this just with libre.chat? 00:10:24 correct, but others care less about the privacy issues/packet loss 00:10:38 the issues on the EMS bridge exist on the other networks 00:12:31 Imagine rolling IRC-only back, no more Matrix, bridges or anything alike. The good ole days. 00:39:28 See: https://nitter.unixfox.eu/grapheneos/status/1726825738660360332 00:58:22 <123bob123:matrix.org> Yeah i argued with Daniel M going to discord 00:58:25 <123bob123:matrix.org> And i didnt get banned which is weird 00:59:49 Try harder 01:20:45 <123bob123:matrix.org> Always 01:33:54 I am hearing reports monero suffered a network attack in sep 01:34:03 is this true? 01:42:16 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ofpaF5pkE8 01:45:16 ? 01:47:37 a video titled is it true? about a supposed monero attack 01:47:50 seemed like an appropriate response 01:48:16 That's funny: `It has severely harmed the GrapheneOS project, hindering our ability to build a community.` 01:48:17 Didn't those guys block everyone, and their mothers, on twitter? 01:49:27 <123bob123:matrix.org> Yeep 01:49:47 <123bob123:matrix.org> Basically he whinged and no one listen 01:50:05 <123bob123:matrix.org> Whinged to matrix devs 01:50:08 violent rhetoric: Monero is always under attack 😎 01:50:25 <123bob123:matrix.org> Monero HA 01:51:35 but did monero get breached? 01:52:17 <123bob123:matrix.org> Wallet or monero? 01:52:44 <123bob123:matrix.org> Cause the jetfund 🛫 01:58:05 network 01:59:07 Did anyone check ofrnxmr's socials for holiday pictures from Bahamas, supporting the theory, put forward by Dan? 01:59:30 offrn? 02:00:18 Ah, a newb 😆 02:00:50 no network attack 02:01:19 who is offrn 02:03:10 who knows. 02:05:03 <123bob123:matrix.org> Uno 02:06:25 bro just say it 02:08:05 Around here, we don't doxx peeps, not even ofrnxmr 😅 02:08:23 yall talkin about the bahamas 02:08:26 why 02:09:03 LOL, that was a while back. You had to be around for that. 02:17:46 the bahamas suck 02:17:48 are there any plans for monero to adopt a ZKP "mixer" with nullifiers etc? 02:29:20 MEEE 02:29:52 > the bahamas suck 02:29:52 Yeah. Just got back. 6/10 02:30:20 > are there any plans for monero to adopt a ZKP "mixer" with nullifiers etc? 02:30:20 Mixer? 02:31:17 right. No network attack. 02:31:17 just a boating accident. 02:32:38 I'd be surprised about the lack of bad news about it, but then again i assume most news outlets have a "monero" gag order 02:33:15 similar to how torando or zcash work. 02:33:20 I hoped they would run a huge smear campaign against monero, but nope. Theyre still afraid to mention monero 02:33:34 Tornado and zcash arent zimilar 02:33:53 ok boomer. 02:33:58 One of these is a btc fork that can work 100% private like arrr 02:34:10 they use zkp snarks with nuliifiers to sever connection between input and output. even a break in the discrete log cannot reveal links. 02:34:31 so, youre talking about full chain membership proofs 02:34:47 Yes monero plans to impl FCMP, but no, not a mixer 02:35:02 do you have a reference to the effort? 02:35:03 FCMP are in progress 02:35:15 https://piped.adminforge.de/watch?v=vrCAiLPfXlg 02:35:17 Sure. 1 sec 02:36:42 Thats video ^ 02:36:42 theres also 02:36:43 https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/403 02:36:43 links in OP 02:40:00 does FCMP maintain the property that tornado has in regards to a discrete log break wherein such a break cannot compromise past privacy? currently with monero if the discrete log is broken in the future analysis will reveal far too much about the past. 02:50:06 voidastro: The current Monero FCMP proposal is based on Curve Trees: https://www.usenix.org/system/files/usenixsecurity23-campanelli.pdf 02:50:43 I don't know about forward secrecy specifically, but the paper does require the discrete log assumption for security. 02:51:49 Please provide clear citations that Tornado Cash and Zcash's Halo 2 have forward secrecy if discrete log is broken. 02:54:42 they have forward secrecy because they have the zero knowledge property. a dlp solver can forge proofs but cannot links inputs and outputs. 02:55:42 this is true of zk-snarks in general though. 02:56:58 in the case of tornado it's just that whats being proven is membership and nullifier construction 02:57:14 #monero-research-lounge maybe? 02:59:06 For Zcash I think you need the transaction to be fully z address-to-z address (not t- to z- or z- to -t) and the z-address to not be known to the quantum adversary: https://forum.zcashcommunity.com/t/is-zcash-actually-quantum-private/40706 02:59:06 I just skimmed this thread when I first saw it. I don't know much about it. 03:02:36 Hi guys I don't know if I'm in the correct channel for this but I purchased some vending machines very cheap and I am wanting to convert them to accept XMR and Dogecoin. I originally wanted to use the LNbits software to accept BTC on the lightning network but due to high transaction fees and how complicated it is to use LNbits I don't believe that is the best option for a vending machine. 03:02:36 I was planning on using a Raspberry pi to run the software to generate QR codes and an Arduino to control the stepper motors on the vending machine. 03:02:37 I was hoping someone here could point me in the right direction to start this project. I've been looking online for months and have not found anyone else who has done this or something similar to this so I'm struggling to get this off the ground. 03:04:17 Sounds interesting. staysilver: Best place to ask is #monero-community-dev:monero.social 03:05:13 staysilver: Take a look at https://atm.monero.is/ 03:05:13 Join their Matrix room #atm:kernal.eu. 03:16:33 Thank you Rucknium! 03:16:34 rottenwheel This project actually isn't an ATM. I purchased two older snack vending machines for very cheap that still work I am wanting to convert to accept XMR and Doge. I plan to sell normal candy and snacks out of the machine but may do 3d printed items or whatever else people might want. 03:17:59 staysilver: Understood. Thought an ATM project may have common interests with your forthcoming project. Sounds interesting, keen to see where it leads you. 03:22:13 Thank you I do appreciate it. Hopefully it doesn't lead to a dead end lol. I have some programming experience with python when I was in school but I have since forgotten most of what I learned. I am hoping to find someone who can consult me on which programming language might work best for this so I don't waste time learning a language that wont be beneficial to the project. 03:22:14 To be honest I very surprised no on else has done this yet. 05:28:15 Have you missed 25th's MoneroTopia? 05:28:15 You can get a recap here: https://monero.town/post/1243680 06:42:03 from where 15:02:17 ofrnxmr: what do you suggest instead of luigi? 17:57:33 multisig should still be better than single if the parties are trusty, unless my understanding of the theoretical weaknesses is way off 18:56:44 <123bob123:matrix.org> I thought it was just in efficient? 18:59:02 what % of multisig signers need to be hit by a bus before we lose the wallet? 18:59:37 <123bob123:matrix.org> 2 i think 18:59:38 <123bob123:matrix.org> 3rd is bus driver 18:59:52 for 2 of 3 18:59:54 ? 19:30:45 Yes, you need 2 signatures. If you have 3 signers, you can "afford" to lose 1. If you lose 2, it's game over. 19:31:21 <123bob123:matrix.org> Ok 19:31:47 <123bob123:matrix.org> So cat can drive over one person then 19:38:16 Cat is a proven killer so beware 19:39:56 we could use 2 of 5 so we wouldn't be so fearful of buses 19:40:12 dunno if it's a good idea otherwise 19:41:07 <123bob123:matrix.org> Can it do that? 19:41:44 <123bob123:matrix.org> And gotta get 5 people to volunteer 19:42:05 known only to each other 19:42:24 2 of 4 ...... whatever 19:45:19 <123bob123:matrix.org> Ofrn alts? 19:45:30 2 of N means you only have to convince 1 person to split 2600xmr with and because we dont know who(s) signed the tx you can have plausible deniability and also say ooo123 dod it 19:47:51 <123bob123:matrix.org> Wasnt me 19:49:00 It cant be proven who colluded to steal , so the more signers means the more plausible deniability 19:51:45 24/25 multisig wallet? 19:57:33 10/25 could be good. Add me in! Still need 10 people that approve the stealing even if they get nothing in return 19:57:53 s/10/9/g 19:58:55 I promise to split it evenly of you collide with me 19:59:18 Oh my what typos, collude* if* 20:04:24 <123bob123:matrix.org> Trust me bruh 20:27:54 just give Cat turkey and she will have no reason to steal 20:38:49 <123bob123:matrix.org> Fancy 20:53:24 Do they really know the difference anyway. They just raid any chiken as long as it's not modified (spices, sauces....) 20:58:36 2/3 or maaybe 3/5 is all that makes sense really IMO. I think it will be quite cumbersome to use though especially if hot wallet is kept small like 1-2 months 20:59:39 Send 2600xmr to the hot wallet once a year 20:59:47 we could have a single sig hot wallet if it's actually kept small 20:59:50 imo 21:00:13 might require manual payouts for bigger stuff but so be it 21:02:53 I was planning on single sig hot wallet anyway. Too much bandwidth otherwise 21:03:17 <123bob123:matrix.org> Or split payments in 1 hot wallet for monero devs and other for projects 21:03:23 <123bob123:matrix.org> And jetfund as offline 21:03:35 <123bob123:matrix.org> Or split payments in 2 hot wallet for monero devs and other for projects 21:04:49 Hot wallet has been single sig for 6 or 7 years and has never had a breach. 21:06:35 Did you send the seed via pigeon carrier to any external parties for that wallet? 21:07:23 No 21:07:30 <123bob123:matrix.org> What about we put monero on a usb and do a “money drop” 21:07:49 <123bob123:matrix.org> Cloak and dagger style 21:09:04 If multisig wallets show who signed the tx we would know exactly who was compromised 21:09:26 They don't though 21:09:36 True :( 21:09:45 I mean the wallet would but not the transactions 21:09:59 Then a 1/2 multisig wallet could show who was compromised/did it 21:10:35 1/2 is a degenerate case 21:10:51 That's just seed sharing 21:11:09 At least in XMRs way 21:11:21 In a smart contract way you could tell ya 21:11:44 Yep (without knowing/proving that 'ot wasnt my key who did it') 21:13:27 Maybe a future upgrade/request for Seraphis/multisig - prove you wasn't part of the signing group 21:14:06 <123bob123:matrix.org> Proof of not exiting 21:15:04 Single signhot wallet + the bulk in a 3/5 is sane. 21:15:59 <123bob123:matrix.org> Still need to improve opsec 21:16:12 <123bob123:matrix.org> Otherwise same boat 21:17:08 There's just tradeoffs 21:17:57 A single singer can reasonably do offline signing even via qr codes. Hard doubt that will scale to multisig 21:18:16 500 xmr ish to be paid out every month though 21:20:03 Yes there's a lot of volume that reduces the convenience significantly 21:20:12 The 3/5 signers have to provide the service, free of charge for eternity 21:21:18 Aliases 6+ years old is a good start for the multisig group? 21:21:41 Yes another big tradeoff 21:22:09 Also old nicks have fallen off over time. Hard to tell if the 6 year old ones are closer to staying forever or dying 21:22:20 lol 21:22:48 nioc are you ok? 21:23:17 never better 21:24:33 how about NoodleDoodle ? 21:24:40 He's alive 21:24:55 hard to tell lol 21:25:09 Agreed he doesn't respond to me very often 21:28:32 Also there seems to be some pushback against hardware wallets. Which I agree they are less secure than offline computer both virtually and physically 21:34:51 <123bob123:matrix.org> Well you only have ledger or trezor 21:35:31 <123bob123:matrix.org> Just put an offline pc in a faraday cage 21:36:13 There is no physical protection for any single signer wallet if we know the exact balance being held 21:36:57 The trezor passphrase wont work neither will the offset phrase or a jumbled up seed... We know you have 2600 xmr where is it 21:38:02 <123bob123:matrix.org> Arent you just protecting the signer? 21:38:42 correct very hard to protect against wrench attack 21:39:23 multiple signers only slight helpful if amount is large enough. You can go very deep in the rabbit hole thinking of scenarios. 21:50:27 <123bob123:matrix.org> Wrenches are expensive now 21:51:15 <123bob123:matrix.org> Also if you have good opsec cant use a wrench if they cant find you. 21:52:04 well good opsec is basically: be anonymous 21:53:38 bob you cab still get wrenches for less than $5 21:53:52 *you can 21:54:03 <123bob123:matrix.org> Asian metal yeah. One hit and it breaks? 21:54:48 <123bob123:matrix.org> Opsec is more security them anon 21:55:49 > The trezor passphrase wont work neither will the offset phrase or a jumbled up seed... We know you have 2600 xmr where is it 21:55:50 I giggled 21:56:20 (long day, catchup on backlog later) 22:02:31 its not what you know, its what you can prove. 22:02:32 bf doesnt seem to fear the wrench 22:11:39 <123bob123:matrix.org> Wear chain mail 22:22:51 I can confirm that Cat claws go thru chainmail 22:23:51 it does help somewhat 22:24:20 only puncture vas ripping 22:25:25 well a bit of ripping but also less depth 22:56:09 <123bob123:matrix.org> Opsec is more security them anon <= physical opsec against worthy adversary isn't much more 22:56:32 unless fully security detail on you + relevant family members 22:56:43 and even then