01:25:01 <m-relay> <q​uincunx55555:matrix.org> Is the option to prune the blockchain only available on install?  I didn't realize my hard drive was going to get eaten up.
01:47:34 <nioc> there is an option to prune after install but it takes at least as much time to do that vs starting over 
01:50:06 <nioc> when pruning after fully syncing the blockchain it will not show that it is smaller but it will not show an increase in size until the pruned blockchain grows to the size of the full blockchain at the time of pruning
01:50:47 <nioc> AIUI the space obtained from pruning is available for other things as well
01:51:11 <nioc> ^^ from pruning a fully synced chain
01:51:47 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> You can enable pruning anytime
01:52:03 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ideally, enable it before you sync ~50gb
01:52:36 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> enabling pruning after the chain has already reached >65gb, it wont _shrink_
01:52:59 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> It will just stop growing until the pruned chain reaches the size that youve allocated.
01:53:29 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> So.. if you arent too far into the sync, just restart the node and add the flag `--prune-blockchain`
01:53:46 <nioc> ^^^^
01:55:16 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> The tool nioc is talking about is blockchain pruning utility. 
01:55:16 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> This tool takes your full node blockchain, and uses it to create a _new_ pruned blockchain file alongside it. so you'll require extra space and end up with 2 blockchain databases with using this utility.
01:57:45 <nioc> *trying to talk about 
02:02:02 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> https://monero.stackexchange.com/a/11455
02:02:25 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> This says GUI, but the tool and flags arent GUI specific
02:03:52 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> https://www.getmonero.org/2019/02/01/pruning.html
04:03:56 <m-relay> <q​uincunx55555:matrix.org> Is there a way to get my drive space back after uninstalling?  Other than the directory for my wallet, I don't know where any of the data is being stored.
04:40:05 <m-relay> <r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> default location is ~/.bitmonero/lmdb
04:40:13 <m-relay> <r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> Blockchain should be in there
06:11:39 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> ofrnxmr: The latest Cake wallet versions supports Tagalog.
09:06:42 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/935
09:06:42 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> so staying a single wallet? not splitting it up?
12:02:16 <msvb-lab> Just a reminder about an important vote that is expiring tomorrow 2 December.
12:02:27 <msvb-lab> It's to express your opinion if Luigi should or should not continue as escrow manager of the CCS. https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/935/
12:02:37 <msvb-lab> It's not a binding vote, but mostly to give luigi1111 (and core colleagues) an impression of what to do.
14:04:26 <luigi1111> What wallet supports qr transfer?
14:06:59 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Anonero
14:08:17 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> If I remember correctly from news, did not try it myself
14:08:46 <Lyza> feather as well
14:11:57 <Lyza> honestly I cannot say enough good things about feather and the main dev tobtoht
14:13:00 <Lyza> I genuinely can't name a wallet for any coin that I've seen better docs for and he wrote it all himself: https://docs.featherwallet.org
14:13:18 <Lyza> the docs I mean
14:13:54 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Does Feather support cold signing with tx transport by using QR codes, as I believe is the feat that Anonero is able to?
14:14:00 <Lyza> yes
14:14:12 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Interesting, didn't know
14:15:20 <Lyza> I'm 90% sure it's in, if not it's 100% being worked on
14:15:51 <m-relay> <r​brunner7:monero.social> Yeah, Tobtoht is an excellent example of what perseverance can do. You. Just. Dont. Stop. Until. Success. So simple in principle, so hard to pull through in real.
14:17:58 <Lyza> ok yes I just confirmed I can export unsigned transaction as QR code in feather
14:18:01 <Lyza> and yeah 100%
14:19:49 <Lyza> even with CLI you could have a separate applet that generates QR codes from strings + reads QR codes from webcam
14:20:25 <Lyza> like there's generic stuff in the debian/ubuntu repo for that
14:26:47 <m-relay> <t​obtoht:monero.social> Yes, UR support (animated QR codes) next release.
14:29:06 <Lyza> oh shit I didn't think u were here I'm embarrassed now
14:30:19 <Lyza> does UR bring new features or just make it more versatile / compatible compared to big static ones
14:35:18 <m-relay> <t​obtoht:monero.social> The whole UI/UX is redesigned.
14:35:24 <m-relay> <t​obtoht:monero.social> I'm very close to tagging this and will have a write-up soon.
14:37:18 <Lyza> wow, see this is the shit rbrunner was talking about
14:37:35 <Lyza> looking forward to testing
14:41:11 <m-relay> <t​obtoht:monero.social> In short: More robust (it can handle multiple offline/view-only wallets, recover from lost caches, restores). Only does key image sync when needed. Syncs new key images with unsigned/signed txes. There is now a wizard that guides you through the process (so no more clicking through menus to import/export). There is a dedicated offline mode with UI/info tailored to airgapped signing.
14:42:56 <Lyza> jesus I'm goin wild over here
14:43:02 <midipoet> Can the feather generated QR be read and broadcast by any app, or does it need to be feather as well?
14:44:31 <m-relay> <t​obtoht:monero.social> The animated QR code is compatible with ANONERO. In transmits the standard signed tx binary format over UR, so in theory and UR-capable wallet could scan and broadcast it.
14:44:45 <midipoet> nice!
14:48:34 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> I read hinto 's very nice https://malvarma.org guide to airgapped signing with the GUI wallet. Is it actually necessary to transfer `outputs` ( https://malvarma.org/transactions/outputs.html ) information to the airgapped signing wallet to tell it which outputs have been spent? AFAIK only the view-only wallet needs to know which outputs have been spent since it constructs the txs.
14:51:01 <m-relay> <t​obtoht:monero.social> You need to transfer outputs to the offline wallet, so the offline wallet can return the associated key images, which the view-only wallet can use to check if they're spent. The offline wallet doesn't need to store the outputs.
14:56:00 <Lyza> Could the view-only wallet mark outputs as spent when it received a signed tx to broadcast? still wouldn't be able to check for spending from other sources ofc
14:56:41 <Lyza> or it still needs key images to tell what's being spent
14:57:51 <Lyza> ^^ especially if it remembers what unsigned transactions it has constructed. or maybe that doesn't matter either
14:58:26 <m-relay> <t​obtoht:monero.social> You won't have to do this key image sync for every transaction. If the view-only wallet can construct a tx using outputs with known key images, it will do so. The unsigned tx will contain a request for all unknown key images. The signed transaction will contain all requested key images + the ki for the change output. So, key images get synced as you spend.
15:00:49 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> AFAIK, you can use Feather's coin control to do all of that if you...are conserving energy (are lazy). Choose specific coin(s) in the view only wallet to spend, construct tx, sign it in airgapped, broadcast it, freeze that spent output in the coin control tab manually. Only for advanced energy-conserving users 😅
15:01:56 <Lyza> lol ruck ig that's true
15:02:44 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> The UX to restore this type of wallet setup from seed words is difficult AFAIK. Restore from seed words does not get you the signed key images in the view only wallet. hinto 's guide says to recover the view only wallet and import the key image file, but what if that was lost?
15:03:33 <Lyza> that sounds like a smart system tobt I was more just asking for curiousity sorry lol
15:04:47 <Lyza> I think you jsut restore seed on offline machine, generate new view only wallet, it scans for outputs, send those to offline wallet, key images get sent to view-only wallet, done?
15:05:52 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> Possible workflow with bad UX: Construct a tx in the view only wallet spending each output in the view only wallet (one output per tx) to your own wallet. Seld-spends. Sign all those txs in the airgapped wallet. Then with a local node in --offline mode and/or --do-not-relay-tx mode, send those txs to the local node and see which ones monerod reports as invalid because it double sp<clipped message>
15:05:52 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> ends the output. Is there a better way without connecting the signing wallet directly to a node?
15:06:10 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> self-spends*
15:07:23 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> Seraphis's new view key types will fix this AFAIK
15:07:32 <Lyza> sorry what's the goal
15:07:57 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> Lyza: Restore this airgapped setup from seed phrase.
15:08:08 <Lyza> "this" <--?
15:08:12 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> After the wallet has already received and spent some coins.
15:08:35 <m-relay> <h​into.janaiyo:matrix.org> Rucknium: the wording is simplified, and yes it's not actually nessacary in some cases but a footnote explaining specific cases seemed out of scope - urging the full process each time seemed safer
15:08:50 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> Lyza: Well, hinto's suggested setup. But it probably applies to other airgapped setups
15:09:02 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> hinto: I agree :)
15:09:08 <Lyza> I don't see why what I said above isn't the obvious way
15:09:18 <m-relay> <h​into.janaiyo:matrix.org> Lyza is correct, you'd need to do the output <-> key image dance if you're restoring both wallets
15:09:34 <m-relay> <h​into.janaiyo:matrix.org> the guide assumes you have at least 1 half, maybe i should add the full case
15:09:42 <Lyza> =)
15:09:57 <m-relay> <t​obtoht:monero.social> If you restore a view-only wallet from keys with Feather and try to send a transaction it will just guide you through syncing the key images.
15:10:21 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> Lyza: Yes, your way is better :)
15:12:12 <Lyza> t​obtoht that seems v smart but also I can see myself at some point wishing there was an override, if I'm trying to spend something I "know" is unspent without the whole rigamorole I could hypothetically make the tx if not prevented ya?
15:14:29 <m-relay> <t​obtoht:monero.social> You can always force a key image sync and check spent.
15:14:49 <m-relay> <t​obtoht:monero.social> Also pretty sure Coins will allow you to spend spent coins.
15:27:12 <m-relay> <t​obtoht:monero.social> Oh I see what you mean. You want to avoid key image sync and spend outputs with unknown key images.
15:29:12 <m-relay> <t​obtoht:monero.social> Key images are not needed to construct an unsigned tx, so in theory this is possible.
15:40:19 <m-relay> <q​uincunx55555:matrix.org> That directory doesn't exist.  I didn't change the defaults.  Is there a way to find out where it really is?
15:42:01 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Which OS
15:46:05 <m-relay> <q​uincunx55555:matrix.org> Linux Mint.
15:47:46 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> open terminal
15:47:52 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Type
15:47:56 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> cd ~/.bitmonero/lmdb
15:50:52 <m-relay> <q​uincunx55555:matrix.org> I also use my package manager to uninstall, but that didn't recover my hard drive space.  I installed it again, but wasn't given the option to prune.  It sounds like if I prune after syncing, the app just needs more hard drive space.
15:52:26 <m-relay> <q​uincunx55555:matrix.org> bash: cd: /home/me/.bitmonero/lmdb: No such file or directory
15:58:45 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Has anybody ran the numbers on the value of Monero based on the equation of exchange?
15:59:55 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> louis.libre: IMHO, too much missing information. I don't think you can do it for transparent coins, either.
16:01:09 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> You don't have a GDP nor the price level associated with that GDP.
16:01:14 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Even with rough estimations, we can add "what we know" + 'what is estimated'
16:01:32 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> to have at least a floor value
16:01:48 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> based on the fact that much of the total value is impossible to calculate
16:01:56 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> so known + estimated value = floor value for monero?
16:02:52 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> But yeah, missing information is right.
16:04:27 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Even with rough estimations, can't we calculate it based on "what we know" + "what is estimated"?
16:04:46 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> Let me know if you develop something :)
16:05:57 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> quincunx55555:  open the app "disk usage analyzer"
16:06:15 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> and come to
16:06:24 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Monero Support
16:07:39 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> I just searched. There are a few research papers with search terms "bitcoin" and "equation of exchange"
16:08:35 <luigi1112> so something like: laptop with webcam, wifi card disabled/removed, strong encrypted drive, strong wallet (feather?) password
16:09:25 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> MV = PQ
16:09:25 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> M = supply
16:09:26 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> V = impossible to know, perhaps estimation based on # txs
16:09:26 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> P = the variable to solve for
16:09:27 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Q = darknet estimated volumes (based on papers/criminal cases ) + published data from s like coincards/ccs/etc
16:09:27 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> P' = (M*V)/P
16:09:29 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> I'm no economist though
16:10:09 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> MV = PQ
16:10:10 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> M = supply
16:10:10 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> V' = impossible to know, perhaps estimation based on # txs
16:10:11 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> P' = the variable to solve for ( floor price )
16:10:11 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Q' = darknet estimated volumes (based on papers/criminal cases ) + published data from s like coincards/ccs/etc
16:10:12 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> P' = (M*V')/Q'
16:11:16 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> MV = PQ ( equation of exchange )
16:11:16 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> M = supply
16:11:17 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> V' = impossible to know, perhaps estimation based on # txs
16:11:17 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> P' = the variable to solve for ( floor price )
16:11:18 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Q' = darknet estimated volumes (based on papers/criminal cases ) + published data from s like coincards/ccs/etc
16:11:18 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> P' = (M\*V')/Q'
16:11:33 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> V is almost impossible to know for Monero. You see some info about V in transparent chains, but you can't use just the blockchain data to determine if txs actually purchase anything. They could be self-sends or deposits&withdrawals in exchanges.
16:12:27 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> What would be interesting is if we apply the V from transparent chains on the darkweb to Monero
16:12:44 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> As a proxy
16:12:54 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> IIRC usually the equation of exchange's V is solved from the other variables because a country's statistical offices have info on M, P, and Q
16:13:13 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Interesting
16:16:04 <Lyza> <luigi1112> that sounds like a pretty good setup. with a fully offline machine you'll need to pull wallet updates and such from a hot machine, so maybe consider spooling up fresh VMs for that. should be infrequent enough though.
16:17:36 <luigi1112> what if we just never fork again
16:17:42 <luigi1112> ^_^
16:18:16 <Lyza> lol
16:18:25 <luigi1112> bitcoin fixes this
16:18:46 <luigi1112> I saw a local bitcoin atm today. Bluescreened. lol'd
16:19:31 <Lyza> well you'll have the hashes to check against so VM might be overkill, there's a lot of stuff I could think of that would prob be overkill. what you suggested seems pretty good against anyone who can't access your physical space anyway
16:19:35 <Lyza> ^^ that is p funny
16:20:33 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> louis.libre: Maybe continue in #monero-offtopic:monero.social
16:20:55 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> :(
16:21:26 <m-relay> <l​ouis.signet:monero.social> I always get confused about what the general room is, sorry hehe.
16:25:48 <luigi1112> physical defense is something like 1. shard seed backup or sss; memorize passwords. Theft of device will be rather obvious and take much longer to crack than migration to a new seed (a potential weakness of Ledger and related). Weaknesses would be repeated physical access like some kind of MitM keyboard device or hidden camera, and good old fashioned ransom/torture
16:34:01 <Lyza> there's some interesting proof of concept attacks against offline machines but yeah mostly
16:35:03 <plowsof> A sata cable being used as a 6ghz antenna (using read/write cycles) to transfer data a few meters away lol
16:35:40 <Lyza> a sharded backup is more vulnerable to loss through backup failure, which in general is something to consider and balance, risk of theft vs risk of just losing the damn key
16:36:50 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Lol @ offline attacks.
16:37:14 <Lyza> yeah anybody that close probably just wrenches you but anyway
16:37:16 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Sounds like you guys all used to have a hard time holding onto your lunch money in school
16:37:40 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Anybody who "wrenches" me is probably 6feet under
16:37:53 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Feds are the only wrench
16:38:19 <Lyza> guess it's settled, ofrnxmr will hold the money since he's such a badass
16:38:44 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> 😭 i didnt think it was badass to not get robbed
16:38:47 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Thought it was normal
16:39:45 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Fluffypony wears more on his wrist everyday
16:39:59 <Lyza> didn't he get shook down recently
16:40:21 <Lyza> by the feds but still, not smart to flaunt it
16:41:24 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Exactly.. feds are the only wrench
16:42:19 <Lyza> in all seriousness that's foolishness
16:42:56 <Lyza> and that's really all I got to say about it
16:44:10 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> You think its more likely that someone runs up in fluffyponies house and takes his watch? (easy, never happened)
16:44:10 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Or hacks/cracks/infiltrates some tech setup (hard, but they chose that method)
16:45:25 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Stealing fluffy's watch is low hanging fruit. any real wrencher would go there. Not go looking for a seed passphrase
16:45:57 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> > <L​yza> in all seriousness that's foolishness
16:45:57 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> I really get the vibe that 99.9% of people here have never been outside
16:49:43 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> ..except for fluffy. 
16:49:43 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> once again, whether its a ledger or a watch, its 400k and fluffy isnt hiding underneath his computerdesk afraid of getting wrenched
17:16:38 <luigi1112> <Lyza> a sharded backup is more vulnerable to loss through backup failure, which in general is something to consider and balance, risk of theft vs risk of just losing the damn key <= yes you'd want to make multiple copies of each shard but it gets messy
18:19:53 <m-relay> <h​into.janaiyo:matrix.org> Rucknium: https://malvarma.org/maintenance/restoring_from_the_seed.html
18:23:29 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> hinto: Thanks!
19:48:36 <m-relay> <1​23bob123:matrix.org> Asking or telling?
23:12:04 <m-relay> <c​omradeblin:matrix.org> If you haven't yet watched the latest MoneroTalk with pablowasserman, feel free to look at it @: https://monero.town/post/1273197
23:15:02 <m-relay> <c​omradeblin:matrix.org> If you haven't yet watched the latest MoneroTalk with pablowasserman, feel free to look at it @: https://monero.town/post/1273196
23:21:47 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Regarding use of feather for creating a wallet. 
23:21:48 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Should it use polyseed?
23:21:48 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> (polyseed is stable.. just not in monero-project/monero yet)
23:21:49 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> im in the "of course it should" party
23:24:06 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> s/a wallet/a multisig wallet 
23:24:07 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> and
23:24:07 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ledger/trezor only produce 24 word seeds, that can be converted to 25 word seeds right? (24/25 ptsd)
23:29:29 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Im also in the party of "rollout polyseed support in cli and gui before the next hardfork". Less things to change at once if people start migrating seeds early. (Polyseed by default. polyseed be converted to a 25 word but not vice versa anyway, cant it? Cant we just supply the user with both seeds at wallet generation time?)
23:30:27 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Feather already supports and uses poly by default, and soon cake will support polyseed as well
23:36:22 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> the original question of "should we use it", i though about because luigi mentioned feather, and feather uses polyseed... and id prefer polyseed to 25 words + restore height. 
23:36:22 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> 1 q about poly, with the restore height embedded, is it still possible to "skip sync", (or enter a custom / later restore height)
23:36:45 <m-relay> <t​obtoht:monero.social> anonero has polyseed too (they're running my patch)
23:37:07 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Nice
23:37:15 <m-relay> <t​obtoht:monero.social> is it still possible to "skip sync" <- yeah, you can override the embedded date
23:37:34 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Perfect
23:54:11 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Did anyone notice antpool's new xmr pool
23:57:23 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> https://antpoolsupport-hc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/22959590671001
23:58:55 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Btw folks.. our hashrate distribution is terrible
23:59:07 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Are yall not mining or what :D