10:39:46 For those of you interested, this was Nic Carter's take (the whole of it) on the Binance decision. If anybody wants to comment/share on X, or similar, to draw attention to the (skewed?) perspective, please do. 10:39:49 https://www.sndup.net/8bp3/ 10:40:35 https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/wIfwxLRC/Brink-XMR_Delist.mp3 10:43:43 cryingwojak_photos_v2_custom_685x.webp 10:44:18 "The exchanges won't let me sell Monero, therefore it's not a valid project" - Soytards 10:45:34 No buyer no value 10:46:38 "this was why some years ago, I stopped being a Monero enthusiast, actually, as interesting a project as I think it is. I figured, I had this realization, that it would not get the exchange liquidity necessary to succeed. because, the exchanges, they they operate, the way regulators think about them, it's incompatible with the true privacy coins" 10:46:39 hmm 🤔 10:46:56 i'm struggling a little bit with Nic Carter's logic there 10:47:37 The Ramping is an annoying inconvenience at best but just proves more so how much more important Monero is. 10:47:37 A real threat to the corrupt system at play would be stopped by any means necessary. 10:47:45 I guess that's your point midipoet 10:48:46 Bitcoin is the real privacy coin (100% true). 10:49:12 How does ramping problem make monero important? 10:49:34 I get why many people solely fixate on "number go up" - we all have bills to pay and food to put on the table. but can't some things be bigger than our monetary needs? for example, an ideology of freedom. perhaps for some people, the answer is no 10:50:28 Hey, at the end of the day for me I'm willing to take the stand, I don't care if Monero goes to zero, I will still use it. 10:52:19 The Monero community needs a hybrid approach, we need to help our peers improve, & fix their fiat situations as best as we can but we need to get them to the point of realization that currency is solely a means of exchange, & what really matters is the goods, & services that people provide. 10:52:57 Read the second part of the original statement. 10:54:06 I'm not sure I follow jordan_sanchez. Sure, without goods and service, there's little to exchange. but the medium *is* important. if it's only fiat token or heavily controlled tokens (ie Bitcoin), you have little privacy or autonomy 10:54:46 I guess you're pointing to the need to have goods and services exchanged for non-fiat tokens? 10:55:39 I'm just stating the fact that currencies ultimately are pointless, 10:56:02 But, why? 10:56:36 People's obsession with fiat is because they believe it is a necessity. 10:56:36 When that is not the case. 10:56:58 john_r365: i don't think (worryingly for someone so intelligent) Nic has/comminicated a fair, or accurate, framing of the situation. They left out important detail, context, and didn't at all address the potential impacts, aside from "Monero is dead". I also took affront to the comparison of UI/UX with Grin (which seems illinformed/wilfully ignorant), and am sure those from Cake and Monerujo would be personally insulted! 10:57:19 Try eating a Federal Reserve Note, or Building a house, & let me know how it goes. 10:58:12 midipoet - agree. terrible take 10:59:24 jordan_sanchez - ok, so leading on from your point (which I'm still struggling with a bit). what's the outcome you're suggesting? 11:00:51 "monero is dead" - I guess we'll be able to count the notches of people that say that. meanwhile, those who actually have a need (or want) for it will continue to use it 11:02:26 Monero is important, it's definitely a means to an end but it's not the ends. 11:02:27 The ends is independence, self-sufficiency, free-will, libre, open-source, self-ownership, privacy, & control over your own life, etc., etc. 11:02:30 Sure, I can get behind that 11:03:09 I think most people who have stuck around in the community would agree. 11:03:10 And if Monero stopped being a good means to that end, would switch to something that was better 11:03:26 Monero is amongst one of the best tools we have as a species right now to accomplish those ends. 11:04:05 Bizarrely, yes. Perhaps bizarre because there are so few (any?) good alternatives 11:06:19 Yes, and this has been proven because many of todays Monero's users were the original BTC'ers when it was still pseudonymous, when the only users were Black Markets, & Libertarians but they moved on. 11:06:19 And eventually, assuming when or if Monero fails to innovate people will move on to a faster, more secure, & better protocols/networks but that protocol/network has yet to arrive so far, or if so it hasn't gained traction yet. 11:06:46 yep 11:10:12 Most normies are simply animals. They can't fathom some worthy goal beyond their immediate materialistic instincts. 11:11:09 I agree but we should probably continue on in 11:11:10 https://matrix.to/#/#monero-offtopic:monero.social 11:11:38 Fair. Will reply on there. 12:02:39 Does anyone have any examples of Monero (or cryptocurrency) being used for Palestine, Gaza, Hamas, Israel, or The IDF, etc., impartial humanity groups that help people in that region? 12:02:39 For strictly research purposes, to show how cryptocurrency is universally used? 12:02:40 Please don't make any comments regarding the very unfortunate, & contentious event in which many innocent people on both sides are drastically afflicted by combatants. 13:26:46 midipoet: TL;DW on his view? 14:48:17 the clip is only 60 seconds long, but essentially 1. liquidity wasn't high enough with Binance for them to push back against, 2. Regulatory pressure, and 3. UI/UX was only just a bit better than Grin. He also declared its the end, and that Monero was his first love in the space. There is no mention of Firo/ZCash protocol changes, no mention of CZ trial, no mention of MiCA/AML/FinCEN, no mention of atomic swaps, DNMs and actual 14:48:18 utility, no mention of Kraken, and no mention of implications for privacy in the wider ecosystem. 14:50:45 The cockroach lives on 14:50:56 (Moneri, not nic ... if anyone was in doubt) 14:57:50 +1 14:58:03 Always on life support 15:06:54 No need for Buyers to come from CEXs 15:07:44 Ya, but rn not enough liquidity on dex 15:09:26 .seen serai 15:31:29 When ? 15:34:46 DEX has many of the same problems that a CEX has. 15:35:16 Dex = no paper 15:36:10 DEX = pricing yourself in fiat in lou of establishing a local value system 15:36:57 It helps to prevent people from using it in exchange for goods and services. 15:37:27 How does dex prevent ppl from using it ? 15:38:17 People focus on forex trades instead of focusing on denominating goods and services in ɱ 15:39:08 Doesn’t stop someone from using it for goods n services 15:40:49 There has never been a focus on adoption, only building wallets but no vendor tools or push to adopt xmr has been done. Hence the lack of exposure, depending on a single market to carry xmr and in turn getting all that taint. 15:41:13 Fluffy tried it partially in 2017’before he dumped everything 15:41:19 But no efforts there after 15:41:49 With exchanges existing, the first thing people do when attempting to price their goods and services is attempt to adjust the price frequently based on the valuation in a different currency. 15:42:51 Ppl adjust price of goods n services, depending on the currencies buying power. 15:43:01 If your currency isn’t widely used, it’s weak. 15:43:27 Example USD and Lira 15:44:20 Buying power should be set on the local market, not some exchange. 15:44:20 When you go buy bread, you don’t open AmeriTrade to see currency prices do you? 15:44:21 Why should people do that with ɱ ? 15:44:59 If someone is able to acquire xmr from exchange, it’s that price. 15:45:04 Even if it’s a single person 15:45:39 There are btcpay and other sw that support it. The big problem is not the tools. It’s really the obsession with exchanges instead of setting local prices in ɱ 15:45:59 Is the vendor chain accepting xmr ? They are not they have to settle it in their local currency 15:46:24 Vendor tools 15:46:30 Is a issue 15:47:13 Who is setting these local prices in monero ? 15:47:36 That’s the problem. We should work on getting xmr being the currency throughout the supply chain. F exchanging. 15:48:36 Chain will all accept xmr, if they are exposed to it; there is no exposure we are hidden on dnms and no simple light wallet in 10years 15:48:42 The vendor. Based on their vendors. So on and so on. But forget exchanges. Because that breaks the force function that we need in order to denominate prices in ɱ 15:49:37 Cake wallet is not simple enough? (Not agruing. Honest question) 15:49:43 Prices are in monero, but they fluctuate depending on it’s buying power 15:50:22 Nope, not for noobs they are used to their banking and btc apps showing balances straight away nor do they need to wait for 20 minutes between txs 15:50:38 Does anyone recommend blockchain / cryptocurrency lecture series for developers 15:50:56 Cake wallet is about as easy as it gets 15:51:43 No easy is lws 15:52:33 Define buying power. That buying power should be based on a supply chain that accepts xmr as much as possible. Looking to an exchange removes the pressure of us extending the adoption of xmr. The exchange allows you to ignore adoption. Adoption (denominating in ɱ) is extremely important. The most important thing even. 15:53:30 Then let’s fix it. But F exchanges. 16:01:43 Yes supply chain doesn’t accept xmr at the moment, it gets dumped straight away on cex. Market makers make a killing, slowly moving price up and with no buy walls as these xmr buyers are market buyers who fill these asks. Then the vendors come and market sell into thin books which get rebought by these market makers. Profit. 16:01:44 1st step stop marketing xmr as anti gov dnm coin, most devs don’t want to be related to such activity 16:01:44 2nd finish lws, make it easy to use 16:01:45 3rd make easy vendor tools 16:01:45 4th market it, get shills (yes, need to compete with doge Solana kinda coins you need marketing budget so pppl talk about monero) 16:01:46 5th get miners back, yes actual miners who invest in hw(not asic); they will support your price and secure network too 16:02:46 dont worry, lws is "finished" - i have that code and some major proposals for it ... 16:03:05 i am sorting out an unrelated bug then will release my lws stuff 16:03:25 i hope monero supports me in this lol i dont get why it wouldnt when i have been working on lws for 8 years 16:03:39 literally one of best experts on it, and pioneered the standard 16:07:19 i dont get why the community keeps saying lws is so important when i've been working on it without support from the community 16:07:53 you guys should support an "expert" who works on monero even without pay and after all the terrible experiences 16:08:06 Put it out in public ? More eyes it will have, the better it is ? 16:08:11 but i have to say i've been baffled at the people that the community often rallies behind 16:08:15 most certainly polar yes 16:08:32 but it's one thing for someone to just demand that I put in public and it's another thing for me to actually survive 16:08:33 Where is your ccs proposal ? 16:08:40 I have literally lived in basements and on the street in order to do this work 16:08:51 my CCS proposal is forthcoming because like I said, I have no help and I'm solving a blocker to the reason why I built this thing in the first place 16:08:58 you have no idea how many disclosures I have for the Monero communitylol 16:09:10 in terms of technology 16:09:14 You need support of what kind ? 16:09:27 I had discovered some things that you guys really are going to wanna know about but it really gives me pause wondering what you guys priorities are 16:09:53 Cryptic as always 16:09:55 The support that I need for starters is that I need people not to simply move on as if the fact that it's not public means that I'm not the person who has been working on this and making innovations that you guys guys don't even know about, but you really need to 16:10:00 it's not cryptic my friend 16:10:12 it's just that I have no one helping me, while all these competitors have no scruples about taking my code, and using it 16:10:26 I thought I've been fairly clear about the fact that I've been given massive disadvantages despite the fact that I've been so willing to give stuff to the Monero community for free 16:10:39 I would love it if the Monero community could actually work together 16:10:43 I hate how adversarial it is 16:10:50 honestly, it wasn't always quite like that 16:10:56 I think people have become distrustful of each other because of some bad elements 16:10:59 I find it to be a massive shame 16:11:10 so it's not a big surprise that I don't trust the community much anymore 16:11:16 you guys are kinda dumb sometimes haha 16:11:29 but you've been manipulated by some masters 16:11:42 kept in the dark about a lot of stuff 16:11:49 there's a reason that people are cryptic. It's because they don't feel safe. 16:11:59 not that complicated, and unfortunately, very real in this circumstance 16:12:29 I assure you, and would even bet you a large sum of money if i had it that my code is done and very well tested, and I have very notable disclosures. 16:12:31 lol 16:13:13 I think my attitude would be different if even one contributor was interested in working with me. but I found it odd, how most of the people who I end up contacting with just want to obtain information from me and then leave and go do their own stuff. 16:14:19 Is your code going to be open source ? 16:14:29 so maybe it's a waste of time to ask the community to stop being so careless with the people who contribute to it. I think it probably is. But it's not necessary for you to worry about whether this lws work can get done because I'm telling you that it's done already. i'm asking you to collaborate instead of just ignoring the fact that somebody spent their own savings and lived on the street in order to do this. 16:14:34 yes, it will be 100% open source 16:15:10 it almost seems like this community intentionally stresses people out because for some reason you've been given the idea that it's OK to do that to people by certain past leaders 16:15:35 So open it and start working, there will be honest devs who will help you 16:15:43 extremely few people who have the technical ability to work on this have any reason whatsoever to put up with that kind of treatment 16:15:49 If you want to do everything in private it won’t work 16:15:55 again, you're ordering me to do some thing without necessarily they're being away for me to do it 16:16:03 there's a problem that I'm trying to point out 16:16:16 and I absolutely assure you that if I didn't have this blocker which I'm certainly making enormous progress on, then I would have released this code long time ago 16:16:33 The reason I haven't released it is that as you are seeing right now, people just want the material and then they will discard the one who produced it, unless they think that they can extract more from them 16:16:39 that is the community that has been created here right now 16:16:54 I wouldn't speak like this otherwise because I don't want it to be true 16:16:56 Get fresh eyes, put it on GitHub 16:17:00 but it is pretty stupid and self-defeating 16:17:06 thank you Polar I never thought of that before ;) 16:17:13 anyway, I didn't think it was going to change anything 16:17:15 ttyl 16:17:35 obviously, I will release the code as soon as I can because I hate this situation 16:17:46 it's amazing how little this community knows about what was done to it 16:22:43 Bitcoin trend is to become a medium of exchange of fiat money. Only. Want to do anything else with it? KYC to death. 16:24:21 Therefore Monero's natural role in the "ecosystem" will be, at the beginning, a subterfuge for privacy conscious/needing users through atomic swaps. 16:25:01 Then the governments were exert pressure on the Bitcoin community to squash all points of contact between the two networks. 16:25:12 It's gonna be a second wave of oppression. 16:27:39 Therefore, as I see it, the way to go for us right now is to make, preemptively, a stronger wider integration with Bitcoin. 16:27:49 Bitcoin is your ramp on and off, forget about fiat. 16:28:10 Liquidity will come through it. 16:28:18 Monero becoming a de facto second layer. 16:46:39 How will it affect the price of Monero in the long term? 16:48:08 Monero liquidity will decrease now, it will gradually increase as more Bitcoin users seek privacy. I think the price may follow that trend too, but who knows. Maybe whales are smart and they buy all of it now in advance. 16:48:34 Monerokon planning meeting in 10 minutes 16:48:50 #monero-events 16:48:59 The problem is, from what I see, is that normal people will never touch BTC, ever again. 16:49:37 Normal people are poor anyway. Very rich people need privacy too. 16:50:08 Monero will be a place where both groups overlap. 16:51:21 I agree wtih you. Monero will only be bought this way. CBDCs will never allow anyone to buy cripto ever again 16:53:33 I've been working in anarcho-capitalist projects, autonomous economies, circular economies, etc, since the early 2000's. 16:53:33 Believe me, the government takes its time, but it doesn't play around, they will destroy everything they can. 16:53:34 **Hope for the worst, prepare for the worst. And be a winner anyway.** 16:53:52 One thing I see as inevitable is that BTC will, sooner or later, be changed to PoS because of environmental regulations, CO², etc. 16:54:27 mining will be controlled and then "improved" 16:54:40 They're already going "green" with hydro, solar, burning excess gas, etc. That's not an issue, it's only headlines. 16:55:15 I live in a 3rd shithole country, i know what you are talking about, my whole life 16:55:19 El Salvador with its volcano project, etc. 16:56:34 I see BTC mining as a fragile bottleneck 16:56:59 Yeah, but it isn't. The energy aspect of it is already taken care of. https://gridlesscompute.com/ 16:57:23 Less miners means more controlled, they will problem blacklist address, and do similar stuff 16:57:51 Ah, that for sure. They will go green and fully KYC. Furtive miners will be hunted down, probably excluded from exchanges, etc. 16:57:52 Less miners means more controlled, they will probably blacklist address, and do similar stuff 16:57:59 Ah, that for sure. They will go green and fully KYC'd. Furtive miners will be hunted down, probably excluded from exchanges, etc. 17:00:21 Bitcoin has already become non-fungible, it's only a matter of time until people perceive it that way. 17:01:35 How is Bitcoin private and anonymous? 17:01:45 It isn't! 17:02:23 Right, so i don't understand the benefits of it 17:02:44 There is no benefit. It was the first of its kind, and it already fulfilled its mission. Its job is done. 17:03:36 I see 17:04:13 Now Monero must take up the torch and continue liberating Mankind from its oppressive relationship with money. 17:05:09 Why do you think BTC maxis hate so much Monero? 17:05:22 always talking shit about Monero 17:06:19 I wonder if it is possible though. How would we pay using it when govt's simple censors it and how do we pay our bills with it when the major chains stores biz's don't accept it? 17:07:07 Because they have learned the hard way not to go against it. Bitcoin will always dominate the market. 17:07:07 The reason why is because fragmentation creates instability. Many networks means many different ways of measuring value. That makes prices unstable. 17:07:08 Also shitcoinery attracts bad elements of society. 17:08:07 I think we need to hack Bitcoin to make its integration with Monero impossible to defeat. 17:08:30 Not sure if you're aware about BitVM? Bitcoin is going turing-complete. 17:10:03 That means we can run any code on it. We could run Monero on top of a Bitcoin node if we really wanted to 😂 17:10:03 not that it would be a good idea, but technically is possible. 17:14:52 Seems we will be stuck with ubi/cbdc. I haven't found a good explanation or gained enough understanding to know how it would be a reasonable option for most of us to purchase items or paid by our employers in Monero or Bitcoin of course unless you work for a company willing to pay you in it. But still... 17:15:54 then there's the issue of if the internet is controlled banned or cut off or blocked then what do we do then? What is our crypto worth? 17:16:30 Or should i say Monero & Bitcoin. the value of it 17:27:09 Maybe bitcoin will be a medium of exchange only between Corporations and Governments. Regular citizen will never be able to play goods and services with it 17:27:10 Maybe bitcoin will be a medium of exchange only between Corporations and Governments. Regular citizen will never be able to pay goods and services with it 17:33:45 m22: Mesh networks. https://meshtastic.org/ 17:34:01 They will "pay" for good and services with "it". 17:34:24 iykwim 17:36:03 So the regular citizens will need to barter using goods services gold silver pipes cigars prositution who know what else etc if we choose not to participate in ubi cbdc or whatever govt controlled currency is used. 17:37:14 The regular citizens are already using CBDC's and they're very happy with them. It's us, the cypherpunks, who need the more private option - Monero. 17:38:06 Sweden, China, Brazil, they're already using CBDC's in one way or another. They've gone fully digital. 17:40:58 Yes I've heard this possibility but not these two in particular. A good one and that would mean we would have small communities to use maybe Monero bitcoin and others for exchange to function outside the system. Interesting future we have ahead of us, i hope we succeed 17:50:31 This is all transitory. Maybe we have hyper-monerization for a few decades. 17:50:32 The ultimate goal will be (it isn't yet, because of the current consciousness level) of total elimination of money. 17:50:32 Barter and gifts will be the economy in the end, the whole of it. 18:10:34 Nice bump https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%201-m&q=monero 18:59:34 Monero has hundreds of Monero only tools but that’s the problem. 18:59:35 We need to develop easy Multi-coin solutions that have Monero built-in. 19:02:55 jordan_sanchez: to be fair most monero+other chain wallets have swaps built in. Monerujo even allows you to pay other currency invoices, by sending transactions in XMR, recognising the receiving address as some other chain. It's obviously through an exchange service, but it's a nice feature. 19:10:34 I’m just saying one stop solutions that solve the “crypto problem” for merchants will be a better use of time for Monero coders than making another insecure web POS. 19:10:34 I think Bitcart, & BitRequest are good tools for example that are multi-coin with monero, we should build more tools like them, or fork them to be just as easy as proprietary fiat tools like bitpay, & open node that don’t currently accept Monero. 19:16:17 We need to think like other kinds of people, & think if I was person X what would convince me to accept crypto for my community. 19:47:46 how can money be the thing that humanity has an oppressive relationship with? The same argument could be made for technology or water in general. So it is probably more likely the case that their oppressive relationship is actually with themselves. otherwise they would not look to accept, look to (maladaptively), or blunder into oppressive relationships. but those who tried to inform people about this were generally 19:47:46 abandoned by people, historically. 19:48:18 because it makes you feel a responsibility 19:54:05 Because we forgot what money actually is. 19:54:06 A medium of exchange, a means to the end, not the ends itself which is water, food, shelter, etc. 19:54:42 do people know what they have to live for these days? 19:56:23 that's quite an existential question there endogenic 19:56:57 Are you in offtopic? 19:57:01 what does one do with ample money, basically 19:57:11 no, it's your question 19:57:24