00:00:08 Is solana compatible with FCMP? 00:01:03 I'd like something that's private and scalable. 00:03:27 What's the best known design for private horizontal scaling? 00:03:49 What's the best known design for private horizontal scaling and pruning? 00:05:42 None? 00:36:31 None. 00:37:35 Zcash is technologically advanced and backward - the combination of Bitcoin+ZKP is quite strange. 00:42:08 https://docs.aztec.network/ 00:42:15 maybe this 01:51:18 amano: "sharding" What about it? 01:51:28 Saying "sharding" and no more isn't helpful. 01:54:02 Regarding Solana, they achieved localized execution of their SCs _and_ maximized throughput. The former is already inherent to the UTXO model as it directly specifies its dependencies (with no further ordering required due to the single usage of all items). Linking tags still serve that roye, with the only comment being the tree of outputs needing to have insertions ordered and al 01:54:03 l iterations tracked. You don't get around that without distinguishing trees (which would be via sharding). 01:55:19 The ZeroExec design linked enabled L2s, and with L2s, horizontal scaling. The only bottleneck would be the non-horizontally scaling data publication layer, yet you can achieve horizontal scaling with solutions employed by modern file storage networks. 01:58:18 *linked in one of those issues 01:58:56 Aztec's modern network, I thought was written as a combination of ZK proofs and FHE, yet the above seems to only discuss ZK proofs. That'd make its functionality similar to the ZeroExec design. Whether or not it achieves the same scalability depends on how they handle data publication and how they take advantage of recursive proofs. 01:59:23 Since it's a roll-up itself, it's shunting the data and settlement to Ethereum which arguably is a bottleneck. 03:08:50 I'm skeptical of L2s after seeing bitcoin lightning. 03:08:54 I'm skeptical of L2s after seeing bitcoin lightning. I used bitcoin lightning. 03:09:58 Can't monero scale horizontally internally? 03:10:40 Even if monero is designed to be used with L2, I think history should be pruned to prevent centralization. 03:22:37 Monero seam to be fine if people use there own nodes. 03:22:37 Main issue is because a lot of people use public "wallet" nodes. 03:22:39 Improvement have to be made in monerod for how it does the RPC things, I think. 06:08:25 amano: Sharding Monero would be an entire discussion. We'd need to establish shards (making the current blockchain 'shard one'), and then outputs would only be spendable within transactions on their shard (fragmenting the privacy set). 06:09:54 The integrity of the network is the integrity of the cross-shard communication. The easiest solution is to make a relay chain, which accepts blocks from shard (finalizing them), meaning one needs to 51% attack the relay chain to cause a double spend. 06:10:41 PoW has horrible latency in this discussion, and then we'd need to have the relay chain verify the shards have correct execution (to prevent one malicious miner from stealing XMR). To solve this, we'd have each shard block publish a ZK proof of its correctness onto the relay chain 06:10:48 andddd we rebuilt zk rollups, shards are just l2szs 06:10:59 *l2s, sorry, hit a few extra keys there 06:12:51 speaking of L2s what ever happened to PayMo 06:22:18 ive just received several PM's from monero social users dated back month(s) ago, all encrypted, all ignored*, im that guy now, sorry 07:31:53 jup 07:32:01 payment channels were clumsy to use.... 07:32:18 payment channels are not worth pursuing 07:32:35 Lightning is a giant shitshow 07:32:43 Are shards okay? 07:33:19 ETH dropped sharding so id assume there are some issues with that 07:33:43 solana is horizontally scalable. 07:33:50 kek 07:34:04 solana also requires $3000 in hardware to run 07:34:33 (as well as a > million in stake) 07:44:41 Wasn't solana like offline a couple times? 07:44:54 I don't know much about solana, actually. 07:45:46 amano: No, it isn't. It still has a global clock for every action. They just fine grain locks allowing as much parallelization as possible within a node. 07:46:32 What can you do really to improve scalability? 07:46:42 Is it an open research question? 07:48:13 Currently, on a 20mbps network you are limited to ~1ktps on xmr, and I am pretty sure you can scale up to that currently with just a hard drive 07:48:15 11 times 07:48:31 monerobull @monerobull:monero.social Why are Pommie and Aussie authoritarian agencies and spooks so retarded in thinking they can just legislate to do the impossible and it will magically happen...?? 07:48:56 what 07:48:59 "But he noted it also provides criminals with anonymity, which is why Australia has laws that make it possible to access encrypted messages. Burgess said those laws aren’t working well because tech companies aren’t helping. 07:49:01 “But even when the warrant allows us to lawfully intercept an encrypted communication, we cannot actually read it without the assistance of the company that owns and operates the app,” .... Because you can't just backdoor e2ee or decrypt it because you want to that defies what e2ee definitionally is end to end encryption... What Australia's laws ask for is Orwellian and doesn' 07:49:03 t exist in practise for companies to do unless they hack your device... And why would companies go and hack peoples devices willy nilly?? If that ever came out nobody would buy from them EVER again... You can't just... ASIO CHIEF:"I demand to read his pgp encrypted content" Infosec expert; "Sir its not technically feasible..." ASIO CHIEF: "IDC about all that tech mumbo jumbo make 07:49:05 a law that says I can read it right now!" 07:49:43 Sure! You can read it in 4 billion years when we have brute forced the encryption! 07:50:49 Perhaps, tech companies will just cave in and provide info. 07:50:54 With enough media pressure, tech companies will cave in. 07:51:06 Thats what our governments and Intel and authoritarian agencies dont seen to grasp lmao... "I demand Signal give me Johns encrypted messages I know its impossible but we passed these impossible to enforce laws that we need to enforce so give us his messages!" 07:51:37 If you implement pruning, 1k tps may be sustainable. 07:51:41 If you implement real history pruning, 1k tps may be sustainable. 07:51:53 so what, let them seethe + 07:51:55 so what, let them seethe 07:52:07 That means tech companies will be forced to remove encryption. 07:52:30 Nope, we need faster internet / smaller txsize first. 07:52:44 1ktps is 1tx/98days/person 07:52:54 If storage requirement grows, centralization will occur.... 07:52:59 Idk about you but I make several tx a day 07:53:06 1k tps is 2000 times more than we currently have. it's not really an issue 07:53:42 We need something along the lines of 1mtps 07:53:50 Better to be ready before it inevitably becomes an issue. 07:53:57 lmao are you retarded 07:54:10 1 million TPS is a bold dream. 07:54:11 visa does like 15k. nobody needs a million 07:54:21 15K is a good target. 07:54:45 current monerod can barely do 100 tps before it hits the CPU bottleneck 07:54:48 I assumed a 100% world wide adoption 07:54:54 With 10tx/person 07:55:04 No I like them seething... What I worry about is what amano said is tech companies will start adding backdoors or an extra end to the end encryption or effectively have an invisible spook in your encrypted chats at all times like with the FBI honeypot phone that sucked in members of mafioso gangs and the messages were end to end encrypted except there was an extra end with an invi 07:55:05 sible FBI agent in the chat with you as well as the person you were talking too... 07:55:10 Even 15K TPS will lead to centralization quickly if history pruning is not in place. 07:55:15 this is like SHIB holders talking about $1. you guys are using insanely delusional numbers 07:55:33 spam attack has shown some cracks at 5 times more than the usual which have been mostly fixed 07:55:52 also, when you calculate the bandwidth needed, don't forget that each node broadcasts transactions to all its peers, so multiply required bandwidth by at least 10 07:55:56 Right, backdoors for governments... 07:56:24 we can now easily handle 5 times the current transactions, probably more 07:56:41 scaling is fine for now 07:56:55 next is FCMPs to finally fix the privacy for good 07:56:58 <321bob321:monero.social> Fix with k8s 07:57:05 and then seraphis to make transactions smaller 07:57:15 Will governments try to do ANOM type infiltration to every single encrypted app... This is my concern... 07:57:19 After FCMP, it's better to implement history pruning when we actually have time. That's my opinion. 07:57:51 <321bob321:monero.social> So why have a blockchain if you prune it? 07:57:55 Governments are already trying to force people to install surveillance hardwares on their computers without warrant. 07:58:05 China-style surveillance. 07:58:07 <321bob321:monero.social> Rm -rf data 07:58:09 history pruning is not actually important at all right now 07:58:19 Will be important in the future. 07:58:21 we need stuff like instant wallet sync 07:58:26 I prefer to do the homework early. 07:58:32 not really 07:58:38 What what are you referring to specifically?? 07:59:01 grafik.png 07:59:56 advancements in storage have been outpacing growth in Monero adoption for the entirety of moneros existance 08:00:27 Ethereum blockchain already occupies several terabytes... That's already burdensome for me. 08:00:50 Fat bloated blockchains transferred over the network will create problems, too. 08:01:13 Monero has been becoming unpopular over years actually.. 08:01:17 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/techsaviours.org/tDKjiGqUNuuvJdkoSLzWKCfS 08:01:26 Monero trading volume has been decimated, compared to several years ago. 08:01:27 You can run a monero node + wallet on a 350$ NUC with 1TB SSD 08:01:30 <321bob321:monero.social> https://www.techradar.com/pro/1200tb-ssd-modules-are-in-the-pipeline-thanks-to-pure-storage-but-you-definitely-wont-be-able-to-plug-one-in-your-workstation-pc-and-it-will-be-shockingly-expensive 08:01:31 <321bob321:monero.social> We are fine 08:01:33 monero is a whole lot smaller than most modern video games 08:01:37 Atlesst I gods my anti surveillance clothing for when they try and profile me!! 08:01:54 Atleast I got* 08:01:56 If 15K TPS is realized, several terabytes will be filled quickly. 08:02:05 bro 08:02:09 SHIB to 1$ 08:02:11 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/techsaviours.org/ixWAMgdHnfAGcKsLphJliffP 08:02:24 talking about 15k tps is silly when we are at 0.5 08:02:46 thats THIRTY THOUSAND TIMES the current tps 08:02:49 Maybe, we aren't getting attention because monero isn't scalable at the moment. 08:03:00 BRO MONERO SCALES 08:03:11 <321bob321:monero.social> Trolling 08:03:15 literally just told you we tanked 5x increase with very little issues 08:03:27 I will let you store several terabytes of monero blockchain. 08:03:34 we have the capacity but adoption just inst there 08:03:45 we have the capacity but adoption just isnt there 08:04:22 <321bob321:monero.social> I need to create ccs for $180,000 08:04:30 <321bob321:monero.social> For a 1.2PB drive 08:04:32 Thoughts on these anti facial recognition shirts monerobull @monerobull:monero.social I bought them cheap on Ali express lol 08:04:47 yeah sure if we get a THIRTY THOUSAND TIMES increase in usage im sure the price will go up by a few X and ill have generational level wealth to buy $500 worth of SSDs 08:04:49 I'm simply not comfortable with growing blockchain size.... Storage size will stop increasing at some point. 08:05:11 Physical limitations are finite. 08:05:14 i already told you they can track you based on heartbeat profile ,:) 08:05:26 tell me when that happens 08:05:56 Hmm... 08:06:36 OK put your wallet next to your heart in your front pocket?? 08:07:14 Or on it its leather and if thick enough could repel against it no? 08:07:28 https://www.infowars.com/posts/breaking-fisa-amendment-forcing-fbi-to-obtain-warrants-to-spy-on-americans-fails/ 08:07:41 the tshirts is a bit like this meme 08:07:44 file I Use ProtonMail So the Feds Cant Track Me Meanwhile the Feds (480p).mp4 too big to download (1845305 > allowed size: 1000000) 08:07:45 I Use ProtonMail So the Feds Cant Track Me Meanwhile the Feds (480p).mp4 08:08:11 I feel sad because most blockchain projects don't want to think about history pruning. Kaspa is the only project to do that. 08:08:22 Maybe, DERO, too. 08:08:23 yeah yeah fuck off 08:08:38 Removing the offtopic shill or 08:09:02 Bruh infowars is conspiracy theories though who believe in every single conspiracy theory even shit like Sandy Hook was faked etc 08:09:39 You can verify the news yourself by searching the internet.... 08:10:37 Government spying is not conspiracy theory. Edward snowden exposed it. 08:10:42 They are whistle blowers... 08:10:45 Hmm if those are real snowden tweets then this might be legit 08:10:58 Snowden isn't the only legitimate source. 08:11:10 Fair enough tbh I just don't trust infowqrs as a new source... 08:11:34 Fair enough tbh I just don't trust infowars as a new source... 08:11:50 Wait he didn't need to be removed 08:28:51 plowsof: Why did you kick me for being an offtopic shill? What does an offtopic shill even mean? 08:29:26 https://dayssincelastdramainmonerocommunitygrouponmatrixorirc.xyz/ 08:29:31 drama incoming 08:33:15 Snowden is not a conspiracy theorist. He is a whistle blower. 09:29:04 turned shill 09:43:44 <321bob321:monero.social> T to the Z 09:44:01 I don't know what you mean by `turned shill`. 09:59:44 You where talking about aliens yesterday in here. And dreaming about the future today 10:01:44 All fine, but in a workgroup its adding alot of noise 10:14:30 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/SFTRiFnYkbzVzbpUCtoruRcY 10:14:32 Monero community needs to be on alert. Certain groups for certain talks only. Better to be paranoid and strict with workgroup approved only chats. Also, swiftly correct a new entrant and get them talking about subjects in the approved group for it. 10:26:37 you are in none of our secret cabal groups and it shows 10:28:46 huh, haggle ober precise wordings 10:29:02 ive been subjected to that recently 10:30:32 no you havent 10:30:57 (gaslight members of the organization) 10:37:56 <321bob321:monero.social> How do i join this secret group? 11:12:34 I struggle to understand why it heat up here... Maybe DERO is shit but amano could have been genuine when saying this. 11:13:51 Don't want to brought up this for drama just saying it was unecessary. 11:17:29 <321bob321:monero.social> Coc breached send to naughty corner 11:17:51 it was a spam attack :) 11:20:01 <321bob321:monero.social> Usage* 11:21:59 The wonderful amano marble attack. 11:24:03 yes i have 11:32:30 are you sure about that? you might be misremembering :) 11:36:35 "you know how bad your memory can be" 12:12:28 <321bob321:monero.social> Byte rot 13:09:14 Talks of aliens possible being tortured for technology yesterday https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-community/20240428#c370011 and then infowars / conspiracy rabbit hole begins right after dero and kaspa mentioned syntheticbird , just trying to help 13:10:20 This isnt a code of conduct violation per se, just alot of noise for a workgroup channel 13:11:23 fair enough. I didn't understood its alien thingy yesterday. 13:42:29 <4rkal:monero.social> How can I get the recommended tx fee in terms of xmr? 14:08:07 <0x1zxq7896lp2zero:matrix.org> lol 14:09:27 Isn't it possible on the official gui wallet ? 14:09:40 https://dark.fi/insights/samourai-devs-arrested-is-a-wake-up-call.html 14:10:22 4rkal: `get_fee_estimate` RPC call to `monerod` will get you the standard four fee tiers in piconeros per byte. Usually it is 20000, 80000, 320000, and 4000000 14:10:47 https://github.com/Rucknium/misc-research/tree/main/Monero-Nonstandard-Fees 14:16:45 <0x1zxq7896lp2zero:matrix.org> AGPL sucks 14:17:01 <0x1zxq7896lp2zero:matrix.org> BSD clause 3 rules :p 14:17:15 <0x1zxq7896lp2zero:matrix.org> 😛 14:25:17 Full-Chain Membership Proofs + Spend Authorization + Linkability Research CCS is now fully funded! https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/fcmp++-research.html @luigi1111 14:28:43 <0x1zxq7896lp2zero:matrix.org> nice 14:28:49 <0x1zxq7896lp2zero:matrix.org> 👍️ 14:31:55 indeed 14:32:34 kayabanerve 14:33:13 @Diego Salazar adundance 14:44:26 🎉 14:45:05 I'll send a few emails today or tomorrow and start lining things up proper, not just "reach out when you're ready" 14:45:42 @Diego Salazar abundance 14:54:05 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/monero.social/UkLofiOrICKaeIexTASDEkZb 15:05:46 Drive-by me-me's/images, no! 15:18:10 <4rkal:monero.social> How large is a standard monero tx? 15:19:06 4rkal: It is better to first tell me what you are trying to do. 15:19:48 <4rkal:monero.social> Just estimate how much it costs to send a monero tx 15:20:22 Why are you trying to do that? 15:20:43 <4rkal:monero.social> Doing a btc vs xmr tx fee twitter bot 15:21:13 There is no such thing as a standard Monero tx. And even txs with the same number of inputs and outputs have different sizes for complex reasons that even I do not fully understand. 15:22:23 <4rkal:monero.social> What's the average? 15:22:27 <4rkal:monero.social> Size 15:23:46 If you want to compare with a standard BTC tx, you will have to decide what a BTC standard tx is. That means the type of address (non-segwit, standard-or-segwit, segwit only, taproot, multisig/single-sig, etc.), the number of inputs/outputs, etc 15:24:37 The most common Monero tx on the blockchain right now is 1 input and 2 outputs. But usually with scaling a 2in/2out standard is used. 15:26:21 You should look up the approximate size of a 1in/2out Monero tx on a Monero block explorer. Of course I know what it is, but if you want to create an informative Twitter bot then you must start consulting the primary sources. 15:42:35 <4rkal:monero.social> For btc I took a 140 vbyte tx (the same that mempool.space uses). 15:44:35