01:05:08 <321bob321:monero.social> Forked 01:05:12 <321bob321:monero.social> ? 01:46:03 yes. all instances have to fork for binaries to release 03:18:17 Does Haveno have a matrix server? 03:18:30 yes 03:18:40 https://matrix.to/#/#haveno:monero.social 03:19:03 Thanks! 05:27:42 Nice post re: Haveno. https://monero.town/post/3138955 05:39:52 https://ccs.getmonero.org/ideas/ 2 new ideas 05:50:22 This is actually what I advocated for in Haveno 05:51:24 Let the market decide which network is the fittest 05:52:25 Different networks can compete on quality and fees 05:55:36 Networks would have an incentive to support Monero and Haveno development by donating to devs, ccs proposals 06:27:07 inevitably, the scammy / bad quality networks will fade out of view and leave room for the actually good ones 06:27:25 inevitably, the scammy / bad quality networks will fade out of view and leave room for the ones that are honest in the long run 06:32:58 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/dFVbDqjwiCynMDKuPZqdbFow 06:32:59 lol 06:34:00 alright 06:34:07 they want me to kyc 06:34:14 looks like the bridge is finally dead 06:45:06 <321bob321:monero.social> Rip 07:21:51 <321bob321:monero.social> client lock in 07:22:06 <321bob321:monero.social> use my client or gtfo 08:09:29 anarkiocrypto made a demo for this bounty (please scroll to the bottom comment area for details) but mentions 'if they can survive' they might finish it https://bounties.monero.social/posts/94/31-006m-nostr-client-for-monero 09:02:37 lmao. one empty proposal and the other is "I'll run a matrix room for 52k/year" 09:05:09 can i get that money for existing 09:07:48 amount: 100 09:07:49 milestones: 09:07:51 - name: Game Server and Client (already published) 09:07:53 funds: 25 09:07:55 done: 09:07:57 status: unfinished 09:07:59 - name: SW Robustness and ensuring the game Logic is %100 true 09:08:01 funds: 25 09:08:03 done: 09:08:05 status: unfinished 09:08:07 - name: Making game client robust (especially web version) 09:08:09 lmao 09:08:11 <4l4s70r:monero.social> $104,000 for being the mod of a matrix channel 😂 09:08:13 withdrawal feature is the last milestone kek 09:10:40 <3 09:11:09 <4l4s70r:monero.social> plowsof needs to ask for a pay raise 09:12:39 i would consider the "Hewwooo" proposal 09:14:20 monero core endorsed gambling site lets goooo 09:17:35 Although we did fund this https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/304 09:19:23 Maybe that "Monero Poker CCS" proposal is a bit strange, but at least it makes sense - unlike some other stuff we had to deal with lately, IMHO ... 09:19:41 <321bob321:monero.social> merge? 09:19:46 mokasino was foss 09:27:25 Github links to things included here https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/461/diffs#3e74a8901dbc58c9532bb138873c1862059353c8_0_35 09:28:23 Info @ https://rohanrhu.github.io/pokerunicorn-website/ 09:28:45 Open Call for DJs, Bands, Comedians, Solo Musicians, Other Live Acts.. If you know any talented artists who might be open performing at MoneroKon, direct them to: https://et.monerokon.org 10:16:52 average chinese stakeholder behavior 10:17:29 (Discord is own by China just in case) 10:18:36 65/hour for that is INSANE. A junior solidity dev makes that much. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 10:21:05 65/hour for that is INSANE. A solidity dev makes that much. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 10:21:24 Some make even less. 11:07:55 Yes. I think this CCS fall into the: "Accept then let community decide" type of proposal. 11:55:07 what got me confused about the p2p room proposal, is that Seraphis is listed as alternative to LocalMonero 11:56:24 Its a company based California, a bit far away from china 12:08:31 dont even remember it. Was the result used by anyone? 12:23:06 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/RAnvjdolWZWvhdusoShnsUdZ 12:25:29 Hey Everyone, 12:25:29 xenu and I are excited to present the script and visual storyboard for the animated explainer video in about Random X. Please have a look at attached PDF and let us know your comments. 12:27:54 I was referring to Tencent being a big stakeholder of Discord but after a quick research Tencent still hold a minority. So apologises for saying Discord is own by China, it's not the case, at least administratively. 12:31:11 Ah my bad, I didn't know that bit 12:32:40 allg 12:32:54 I was referring to Tencent being a big stakeholder of Discord but after a quick research Tencent still hold a minority. So I apologise for saying Discord is own by China, it's not the case, at least administratively. 12:32:56 There are already xmr poker sites I've played on them, there are 2 last I remember 12:33:14 Are they open-source ? 12:34:15 https://xmr.poker/ it's been a while since I played 12:35:58 you need many people on a pokersite to make it viable, like thousands of people "signed up" 12:36:17 rn xmr dot poker has no games running 12:37:04 it's not about making a site it's about getting the people there and people go where the people are 12:38:18 Hey Everyone, 12:38:19 xenu and I are excited to present the script and visual storyboard for the animated explainer video about Random X. Please have a look at attached PDF and let us know your comments. 12:39:03 Is the goal of this project to be viable? Afaik the proposer wanted to integrate *true randomness* 12:41:39 an additional issue with an anonymous poker site is to have controls in place to prevent colluding and for the players to be confident that those protections work 12:47:11 I mean if we already have a working implementation, why should we fund is second one. Its not like its critical infrastructure 12:48:24 tbf it's not like its asking for much 100 XMR. I bet the GF isn't going to invest into that. There is no bad either at merging a second one, is what I'm trying to say 12:49:34 There are also on the onions 🌰 12:49:49 > <@ctrej:matrix.org> I mean if we already have a working implementation, why should we fund is second one. Its not like its critical infrastructure 12:49:51 They are also on the onions 🌰 13:00:55 when main 13:02:05 upon inspection 13:08:21 xmr / btc and xmr / eth pairs on markets are down almost by 50% according to CMC stats and based on historical stats 13:08:22 currently tradeogre is #1 for xmr / btc behind kraken and we are somewhere around there 13:08:22 most of trading is now related to xmr / usdt but with still high buy tendency which is very good 13:08:22 I also took deep dive on source of basicswap on github, the source posted is not the actualy DEX code 13:08:22 fast-track listing of them was maybe a mistake, it's not easy to prove are they dex or not, but they are not 13:08:24 open-source at this point as I checked commit network code many times and also their code (basicswap) 13:08:27 on github is currently not functional 13:10:46 also xmr markets volume is going a bit down from march, past month is #2 worst since start of 2023 13:10:46 there was 3 months only since start of 2023 when volume was on this level 13:11:57 will reflect my findings on github regarding listing / delisting 13:12:44 Thanks majesticbank hm lets try to get a response from the basicswap (real) devs 13:27:19 ded 13:47:36 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/pzqMjkYZgVeHxXazttCMquTR 13:47:54 Translated conviction of Tornado Cash dev 13:50:49 Have you asked in the basic swap room? 13:51:31 He apparently do not wish to 13:52:14 Ask clear questions like "please give me a link to the p2p code" 13:55:32 I made the following proposal. I am happy to discuss the proposal and answer any questions. https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/462 14:00:22 What hourly rate do you think is appropriate and how many hours a week should someone be available to manage the room and make sure trades go well? I looked for comparables before making the proposal. I thought $65 was appropriate for the skills and risks involved. For example plowsof rate is about $43 and this comes with more risks. Previous devs have requested about $65 but agai 14:00:23 n the proposed role comes with higher risks. 14:01:59 I would like to reiterate the same thing someone else notified. Seraphis is not a service, it's a new protocol for Monero. Completely unrelated to an exchange service 14:02:14 I am happy to take community feedback on-board, but also there is a certain amount of risk that comes with the role that I hope people can appreciate. 14:03:00 Why 14:03:24 Whoops 14:03:38 Yes saw the comment above. I think it is fair. 14:04:56 you want 100 grand to be a matrix mod? or am I missing something 14:05:14 p2p code in the repo is not used. 14:05:15 But I found that their app sends orders to Particl node, I guess they are stored in Particl blockchain. Still doesnt make it "decentralized", it is a PoS chain and not much is known about coin distribution, staker count and other metrics. 14:05:17 Also let's not forget that Particl is a shitcoin that lost more than 99% of its value since ICO. I think this alone is sufficient reason to stay away from it. This coin shouldn't be associated with Monero 14:07:27 What are the risks, please elaborate. 14:08:05 I actually meant Serai DEX rather than Seraphis 14:11:34 US courts may see it as an operating an unlicensed money transmitting business 14:12:05 See the recent Samourai case: https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/media/1349321/dl 14:12:54 Also Tornado Cash case: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.604938/gov.uscourts.nysd.604938.53.0.pdf 14:13:08 Local Monero shut down 14:13:35 The Haveno developers did not want to operate Haveno 14:14:21 Because if you are referring to the risk that you could get arrested for this. I would point out, that you made the proposal afterall. You considered the risk. The community shouldnt be the one compensating that part. You should consider whether its worth the risk to you or not. I would say, about 20-30 bucks an hour would be the “ideal” pay for this kind of job. Considering t 14:14:23 hat we had devs in the past requesting less than this for their coding work. 14:15:21 I considered the risk when making the proposal. It did factor into the hourly rate 14:19:23 Thanks for sharing. I could not do it for $20-30 per hour. What about the number of hours. 15 per week was requested for management. 14:20:29 there are trading groups that are run by a bunch of traders, where everyone trades their time for the benefit of being able to trade. This is as decentralized as it gets 14:23:29 Can you link to some of them? 14:23:51 For Monero 14:25:57 It is for the management of a trading room for 2 years. There is more to the management than just being a mod. 14:30:31 What risks are there for an anonymous matrix mod 14:31:12 One slip up with OpSec and it could be an issue 14:32:46 We dont need one of you though, we'd need a team of people to handle disputes (without escrow or multisig, just a oen and paper with usernames) 14:34:19 I do not follow. Can you explain? 14:35:46 Your escrow system (none) will cause a lot of issues, i dont think you do what you propose alone / without help 14:36:35 Why do you think it cannot be bootstrapped alone? 14:36:49 You could fork haveno and remove the issues you claim it has (e.g. removing listing fee etc) 14:37:09 If more people are needed they could be added at a later date 14:37:10 You mention its bot viable ffor <$500 traders 14:37:21 I am confident I can manage the issues 14:38:24 I not claiming there are issues with Haveno. It is a bit undecided how the Haveno project will take form. 14:39:05 See the section from my proposal for why I think Matrix is a good solution for a P2P platform for low value trades 14:39:21 What happens when [people who dislike xmr / p2p freedom] spams your room with [pictures of happy cats] at 4am when you are asleep 14:39:41 1 troll could bring the whole operation down 14:40:10 I said "Haveno when launched will be a good P2P platform for buying and selling Monero. However you will need Monero to make a trade. This is because Monero will be required for the security deposit. As a result this means that a potential user with no Monero will need a good way of obtaining their first Monero. I anticipate the proposed P2P Matrix room would serve this function w 14:40:11 ell. Small trades could take place in the Matrix room (<$500 or equivalent) and larger trades could then take place on Haveno." 14:41:02 The user can be removed. 14:41:20 What would happen in this room if someone did the same? 14:41:35 How would 1 troll bring it down? 14:41:53 We have back end admins other mods / tools available 14:42:13 Our own infra and such 14:42:32 To be clear Haveno is not suitable for traders without Monero wanting to aquire Monero. This is because Monero is needed for a security deposit. 14:43:23 Fork it and remove the deposit 14:43:25 What would happen if at the opposite no one is coming in your room. It's a dead channel. Would you stay awake on a dead channel with no one on the horizon ? Seems weird to pay for hours at doing basically nothing in such case 14:43:29 The same could be set up in the proposed room if needed 14:44:39 Without the deposit where is the security. Haveno has no reputation system. In a Matrix room sellers would be able to develop their reputation. 14:46:40 Unrelated: #Haveno channel have seen a urge of alt/fake accounts joining from the bitcoinist.org instance. I've also been duplicated so @syntheticbird:bitcoinist.org is not my account 14:46:56 I've not seen anyone else in the core team being duplicated yet 14:47:49 The word you are looking for seems to be "impersonated", sir. 14:48:05 What if someone started a kuno to pay their listing fee , or they could email.the arbitrator and "prove" their good reputation from other p2p groups) and ask to be listed for free... How much is the default listing fee even? 14:49:01 There are no fees to list 14:49:04 No trade fees 14:49:20 thx my dear rottenwheel. 14:49:27 The traders will not have any fees to pay to use the room 14:49:59 Anyone can post in the room to make an offer 14:51:47 Q. Will there be any trading fees? 14:51:49 A. No, there will be no trading fees. 14:51:51 Q. If there are no trading fees how will the room make money? 14:51:53 A. There are no plans for the room to make money. This proposal will however funds me for the time I dedicate to this project. This CCS proposal is intended to help bootstrap the idea. If approved once the funds have been used then I am open to the idea of making another CCS proposal or having some kind of donation address that happy users can donate to. 14:59:11 If the room is dead then I would not ask for payment for any room management as none would be needed. I have based the management fees on 15 hours a week. I think this is reasonable. I expect the room to be active. It will be an easy way for people to buy and sell Monero with no fees, from almost any device. 15:01:24 Requests for payment will be made only after each stage has been delivered. For example I would not request management a management payment until I have completed 390 hours worth of work. 15:02:11 390 is 15 hours a week x 26 months (Half a year) 15:02:53 Therefore, I will be managing the room for 6 months prior to asking for payment for it's management. 15:08:16 baldeagle2: this is YOUR choice that you want to make it or not. The community should NOT be asked to compensate you for your “could get caught” risk. If you dont want to do it, dont do it. If you do, then do 15:08:59 I do want to do it hence the proposal 15:09:45 The 'could get caught risk' means more care will need to be taken for OpSec 15:11:49 I anticipate the room would be of create benefit to the Monero community at a time more and more on and off ramps are closing. 15:12:08 We need easy ways to go into and out of Monero 15:13:38 comradeblin what are your thoughts on the proposal in general if you take price out of the equation? 15:57:54 baldeagle2: your table is wrong for Serai at the least. 15:59:09 Mobile friendly - No 15:59:11 When Serai will literally be integrated into Cake, which may be the leading Monero mobile wallet? 16:00:09 Also, Tor - Yes, when the Serai network won't run over Tor. Users may use UIs over Tor, so users may be protected by Tor, but that's the Serai / UI distinction which isn't represented properly here. 16:01:57 Thanks for the feedback will update the table. 16:06:14 Table updated 16:17:41 Also, doesn't Haveno handle fiat? 16:17:57 Er, sorry, ignore that 16:18:13 I misread something. Will have to double check what I misread and what it meant to read 16:19:09 Oh. Haveno is listed as requiring crypto. AFAIK, Haveno handles Fiat and can fully onboard people. Does Haveno always require some crypto bond, even for fiat swaps? 16:27:21 yeah there's a required security deposit in monero to make trades 16:33:22 I personally believe the money requested ridiculous and this being moved to funding an implicit endorsement. I don't believe we should so implicitly endorse. 16:44:01 agree 16:56:25 <321bob321:monero.social> I’m confused on stopping people stealing? 17:01:46 And riak being banned from the matrix room??? 17:02:57 <321bob321:monero.social> So 17:03:05 <321bob321:monero.social> Join with diff account 17:03:22 <321bob321:monero.social> Doesnt seem trustless 17:04:32 pickachu face. There was a reddit thread iirc, some localmonero trader sought advice from a.top seller.. he was advosed to put "DNM" in his profile/title to boost searches... It was a trick and he got banned.. less competition. 17:06:12 People cheat when there's no money on the line. Sock accounts fuding each other will have a field.day 17:21:19 What do you find ridiculous? The $65 per hour? the 40 hours set up, or the 15 hours a week to manage the trades that take place on the room? Happy to take on feedback. 17:23:13 People that do not have Monero will need to obtain some before making trades on Haveno. There should be an easy way for someone with no Monero to obtain it with fiat. 17:24:02 but other crypto and swap 17:24:07 *buy 17:24:57 So should Monero only be available by going though another crypto first? 17:25:55 Having an easy way to obtain no KYC Monero with fiat directly is important for the community 17:27:34 Seriously what options are available now for people to buy Monero with fiat and avoid KYC? 17:28:26 woodser: Ah. Thanks for clarifying. I didn't realize that deposit was always made by both parties even on crypto-fiat swaps 17:28:35 setup a service, take a fee, xxxx, profit 17:29:20 I am proposing a service with no fees 17:29:24 $65 an hour (more than some of jberman's CCSs), 40 hours to setup, and the implicit endorsement are my issues. 17:29:56 > implicit endorsement 17:30:15 Do you mean from the CCS? As in legal risks? 17:31:29 No. As in being a CCS project implies trustworthiness. This room should not be given any trustworthiness. It should earn all it has. 17:31:37 40 hours to setup would be to create the documentation needed to ensure buyers and sellers stay safe when trading, know what to expect, what the trade flow will be, how to raise a dispute, etc 17:32:38 Thanks for explaining. No users need to trust myself. They need to trust their peer as it is a p2p room. Trust for sellers will be built from them developing their reputations 17:32:57 I agree trust should be earned 17:33:02 all services have a fee. Having a fee will give you incentive to grow the platform while the way you propose does not 17:33:20 I said it was about the trust of the room. 17:33:24 .bbl 17:33:31 If the room is successful it will acquire 'trust' as a place for people to buy and sell Monero 17:34:07 But the buyers and seller (peers) chosen is where trust really needs to be assessed by traders 17:34:09 The trust of the room refers to the trust the room is largely honest and successfully identifies honest peers. 17:34:59 Not all services have fees 17:35:01 The CCS spawning this room implies a level of curation/endorsement by the Monero project which should not be implied. 17:35:43 Yours does. It just is taken from the Monero community instead of the room explicit. 17:35:46 What is the difference between funding a P2P room or a dex like Haveno 17:35:55 No trust should be iimplied 17:36:12 I generally would not call for funding DEXs. 17:36:28 So I never stated a difference. 17:36:36