00:00:44 this half-assed pseudo consensus mechanism is a Huge stone blocking the development of the ecosystem 00:02:33 its funny why some people should control what community wants to donate or ignore 00:02:34 your not a treasurer buddy, its just a platform or website for developers to share their idea and for people to support the projects "THEY LIKE and APPROVE" not the mods 00:03:47 you guys are creating a non-existing problem, then apply for a role to fix or moderate that problem 00:03:48 infinite money glitch😎 00:04:17 you guys are creating a non-existing problem, then apply for a role to fix or moderate that problem 00:04:18 infinite money glitch 00:04:47 He is the real glitch! Hear him out! 00:04:49 at most, moderator should only block spams 00:06:33 troll,laugh it off, and start fighting for it forever 00:16:49 I’m not against the funding proposal. I’m against the transfer of power that comes along with it. Shitty of luigi to bundle the two together 00:19:22 the problem isnt just spam proposals 00:20:08 Its ones locked up funding in "great in theory, impossible in practice", straight up scams etc 00:20:37 There is ~2000xmr worth of incomplete, dormant proposals 00:20:40 at least give us a few acceptable options if we’re going to pretend like the community has a say 00:20:55 Where proposers collected 1 milestone then bounced 00:22:10 Regardless. Plowsof needs a merger now, not 2 weeks from now 00:22:21 And he needs someone who can keep up 00:23:45 theres also the subject of monero-docs 00:24:38 Which (i thought) luigi had agreed to give me merge powers on when he created the repo, but never did and now its just in limbo 00:50:36 spam or scam same category 00:50:36 and there should be some constraints too 00:50:38 like not freezing a viable proposal with the support from community for 3 month without any reason or objection 00:51:28 its way harder than taking a loan from traditional bank, specially for newer people 00:53:10 You would get merge powers too? 00:53:50 On monero-docs? Of course 00:54:09 For site, I believe, yes. 00:54:27 Idk who j0j0 is asking 00:54:33 So not github repo? 00:54:41 Yes github repo 00:54:48 For monero-site repo 00:54:52 On github 00:54:53 Not monero-project/monero 00:55:02 But monero-project/monero-site 00:55:06 That's what I meant. OK. 00:55:22 Not the whole project. Not monero, Not monero-gui, not ccs 00:55:50 real_glitch https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/vd-molly-payments-stage1.html where do you label this 00:59:54 thats a hell of a reading for late night hours 01:00:16 Do you know what molly is? The signal fork? 01:00:46 The proposal was to add monero to molly, eta ~18 weeks 01:01:55 Instead, molly raised more money from outside of the ccs, never delivered, posted a new delay update every 6 months for 2yrs, then asked for more money 01:03:00 And they were funded again 01:03:23 Both ccs are incomplete 01:04:33 in milestone part it is empty, so did monero CCS pay the guy or the proposal got funded but donated to GF? 01:05:43 * m-relay summons valldrac 01:18:16 <321bob321:monero.social> If its empty then no payment 01:18:58 Need To check the ccs 01:19:18 if it's up to date :) 01:19:29 i will support anyone who adds a fuking dark theme/mode to both ccs and getmonero website 01:20:40 <321bob321:monero.social> Use sunglasses 01:24:45 https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/388 01:27:20 i dont know the guy but i see a lot of positive comments from the core devs 01:27:22 maybe make a verification process for people requesting huge funds like this so we can catch them out there if needed?(JK JK) 07:12:31 About the SDK CCS, milestone 1 is done, which was the toughest part. Now, just waiting for a pull-request review for milestone 2 07:12:32 https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/9344 08:32:13 I was never convinced that xmr-haelan, thunderosa and almutasim weren't just alts of already established people in the community. 08:35:44 Regarding the LLC and -community, i think a LOT of the push back could have been solved if there had been a non-profit, or a co-op of some kind, set up. This would be similar to twisted edwards. In a perfect world this would have put legal obligations on the directors/shareholders regarding profit sharing and re-investment. That wasn't done (even though it was suggested). 08:37:03 At no point in time Justin or anyone involved with that idea claimed the LLC was going to be for profit to begin with. 08:37:17 It was simply a formalization for accounting purposes. 08:37:44 The whole make it non-profit strays into eurocuck misunderstanding of what an LLC constitutes. 08:38:20 It was all the stretched truth by geonic, haelan, you, claiming it was all an evil plan for compliance, KYC, for-profit, company, bla bla bla... 08:38:35 We, as a community, could have figured it out. Instead, the persons that wanted/needed the change (and it was a distinct need) didn't seem to want to try and choose and alternate path, and instead left community, or at least stepped back. It was fair enough, as they were genuinely hurt, as they felt their objectives were misinterpreted. I personally lost a friend over it (yes, i want a violin). 08:39:55 Stepped down and registered Monero Space LLC, was the original plan. 08:40:23 rotten: yes, we knew that for the most part. BUT there would have been legal implications of assets falling under their control, including compliance requirements. For example, they wanted an LLC to run some social media channels. That would have meant a RAFT of compliance obligations in Europe 08:40:42 That did not bear any fruition, mainly because everyone was, still at that point, repeating the same nonsensical bullshit over and over... Compliance, for profit, company, KYC... 08:40:48 The fears weren't completely unfounded, as you seem to suggest. 08:40:51 The most retarded one... US based! 08:41:09 rottenwheel: they would have been serving EU based people 08:41:15 EU regs apply 08:41:32 We cannot have a Monero related LLC that is registered in the US. Gasp! 08:42:17 rottenwheel: i never said that. 08:42:38 All some people wanted was more thought put into it 08:42:41 That's it. 08:42:54 Since when do you need an LLC to "run a social media account"? 08:42:57 They didn't want to try (it seemed), and left 08:43:17 Removing the concept of LLCs from decentralised infra and governance is completely legitimate 08:43:22 Don't blame them for stepping down. You lot are exhaustingly retarded. 08:43:25 Saying it's not, is ignorance 08:43:40 We could have tried to solve it someway 08:44:06 What decentealized infrastructure and governance are you talking about now? 08:44:07 Or at least discussed it for longer than one or two months. Things weren't going to crumble if there was no LLC 08:44:45 What decentralized infrastructure and governance are you talking about now? 08:45:46 In this instance it was social media platforms (matrix, IRC channels, YouTube - don't know how you do that decentralised), and governance of above. 08:46:24 We still haven't really figured it out either. Cypherstack exists as an LLC and helps out with this 08:47:05 And this recent CCS will put director of LLC back in control of morr stuff, so the problem is reappearing. 08:47:11 If it's not a problem, fine 08:47:17 But SOME people think it is 08:47:28 So be an adult, and deal with it 08:47:45 Can't decentralize "infrastructure" if the whole thing is a proprietary SaSS. 🙃 08:48:10 SaaS 08:48:13 Be an adult and deal with it? 😂 08:48:29 Sassafras! 09:01:47 <321bob321:monero.social> There is always a single point in IT infrastructure when managing. So there is continuity 09:02:14 Precisely. 09:03:00 Matrix, Twitter profiles, IRC (#monero-xxxx...) channels, GitLab repository, CCS, it's all centralized. 09:03:37 Don't get what midi says about "decentralized infra and governance". 09:21:40 As i remember, the idea was to put pretty much all social media (that we had at the time) under control of one LLC, with three board members. 09:21:46 Please correct me if i am wrong 09:22:14 If that plan was suggested today, how do you think it would be received? (Honest question) 09:22:48 <321bob321:monero.social> I think you will have an issue with who the 3 are 09:22:55 <321bob321:monero.social> Trust issue 09:22:57 That sounds like bs. 09:23:09 All social media entails @monero as well, highly doubt that was the case. 09:23:38 There was a ton of social media. I remember that. It also included existing youtube content. 09:23:54 Yes, Monero Community Workgroup YouTube channel. 09:24:10 I wonder... who used to host Monero Coffee Chats before you all killed -community? 09:24:15 Twitter, mastadon/matrix (i still don't know the difference), YouTube, i can't remember what else 09:24:20 Who ran bi-weekly meetings every year? 09:24:43 rotten, you didn't answer the question 09:24:52 How would it go, if suggested today 09:25:16 Can't answer a question with a bullshit claim. 09:25:19 <321bob321:monero.social> Sounds like the same thing as core 09:25:25 @monero would not fall under that LLC. 09:25:37 <321bob321:monero.social> 3 people in charge of socials 09:26:02 it would have been similar to core, except wrapped up in LLC liability 09:26:23 <321bob321:monero.social> Wdym 09:26:25 There would have been benefits (without a doubt), but also valid concerns 09:26:48 <321bob321:monero.social> What is the LLC liability ? 09:26:59 core, for the most part, aren't accountable to regulations in the same way that an LLC is. That is both a benefit and a vulnerability, admittedly 09:27:00 <321bob321:monero.social> Voting on a board? 09:27:23 LLC is accountable to law abd regulations 09:27:31 Can get sued for stuff, shut down, etc 09:27:40 Targeted, etc etc 09:27:57 <321bob321:monero.social> So what regulation would stop them from doing what they want with socials ? 09:28:21 lol. 09:28:22 Nothing. But anyone in charge of socials now can do the same 09:28:40 That didn't fix that issue 09:28:59 The main practical benefit was fundraising and invoicing (as i remember it) 09:29:10 They are serious benefits, without a doubt. 09:29:15 <321bob321:monero.social> So where adding bureaucracy? 09:29:21 But without them, has -community died? 09:29:28 <321bob321:monero.social> With accountablitiy 09:29:36 <321bob321:monero.social> Without* 09:30:01 -community "died" cause an IDEA for an LLC got rejected. That's it. what then happened is the people involved took it personally 09:30:13 <321bob321:monero.social> At some people someone needs to be trusted 09:30:15 midipoet if you zoom in the timeframe between them stepping down from community, Space LLC registration... the period afterwards. 09:30:21 <321bob321:monero.social> Which is pro and con 09:30:25 Diego got let go months later... 09:30:38 Were there bi-weekly community meetings? Were there Monero Coffee Chats? 09:30:48 Was there a Monero trivia every few months? 09:30:50 Of course there was a vacuum 09:31:12 Not because the LLC got rejected, but because the people got affronted with the rejection and left 09:31:27 THAT is the honest truth 09:31:27 Then why do you pose the question "But without them, has -community died?" as if that weren't the case? 09:31:40 ABSOLUTE TRUTH BY PHILOSOPHER MIDIPOET. 09:31:48 "Without the LLC has the community died?" 09:31:50 No 09:31:51 It has to be written in caps, otherwise it's not true. 09:32:16 So now you're rephrasing your original question? lol. 09:32:34 Anyways, this is all a waste of time. LLC bad. 09:32:43 The them in question above, was "the benefits", not the people 09:33:15 If you can follow the train of comments, it's obvious. Apologies if it wasn't 09:33:24 -community "died" cause an IDEA for an LLC got rejected. That's it. what then happened is the people involved took it personally 09:33:40 How can you not take it personal when the accusations around are absolutely false? 09:33:53 <321bob321:monero.social> This sounds like drunk talk 09:33:54 Please do not get defensive and say you did not say X or Y. It is a general counterargument. 09:34:32 Among the accusations... Compliance bro wants to create LLC, that could be a for-profit entity, where community assets reside. Impossible, inacceptable, regulations, USA, they'll serve EU users, hurrr durrr. 09:34:58 threat/risk analysis is always based on predicates that may or may not exist in the future. Monero people do it every day, for myriad things. People in the community did a risk assessment on the LLC and waved a red flag and shouted (me included). That's it 09:35:15 You definitely sound like a drunk old man 24/7 with your nonsense comments, but nobody points a finger at you. 09:35:39 fair enough, I'll shut up then. Thanks for the insights. 09:35:51 <321bob321:monero.social> What 09:35:53 That wasn't with you, was with Dan. 09:36:04 You don't see the quote reply because you're on IRC, midi. 09:36:22 midipoet question in point... How can you not take it personal when the accusations around are absolutely false? 09:36:39 wait what, Dan is like the most sane person around here 09:36:41 <321bob321:monero.social> Once upon a time i remember you were banned from all privacy rooms 09:36:51 <321bob321:monero.social> For 09:37:04 <321bob321:monero.social> Bigot and something else 09:37:06 Gasp! 09:37:12 Call the mods! 09:37:15 Where's plowsof? 09:37:30 <321bob321:monero.social> Anyways 09:38:50 <321bob321:monero.social> Compared to most here sure 09:39:26 <321bob321:monero.social> Bar is very low ceetee 09:39:45 Don't go to the psych ward, join a cryptocurrency community! 09:40:14 <321bob321:monero.social> Alt now 09:40:16 I mean to topic attracts _unique_ people 09:40:18 <321bob321:monero.social> Interesting 09:40:51 I mean the topic attracts 09:40:52 unique people 09:41:09 <321bob321:monero.social> We welcome all 09:41:51 We are all unique and special in our own ways. 🌈 09:44:06 Speaking of neurodiverse people... https://xcancel.com/Dimi_h/status/1808797921053114400 09:44:13 Speaking of neurodivergent people... https://xcancel.com/Dimi\_h/status/1808797921053114400 10:06:06 yeah 10:06:13 im sure he got those 75k from hodling btc 10:40:54 "We are all unique and special in our own ways. 🌈" << what this supposed to mean? 10:41:19 Figure it out. 10:47:23 Rotten and ofrnxmr should get along but I know it's touchy subject 💜 we should all be friends 10:47:57 Why would i get along with someone as useless as him 10:48:15 😬 10:48:26 this is a workgroup, not a gay bashing party 10:53:30 Please don't try to associate me with that tool. 10:53:42 and im not taking things out of context, rotten is intentionally trying to stir the pot. Did the same thing yesterday (and 2 days ago) when he was call calling people midgets and trannies 10:54:30 JUST IN: The biggest heckling turd in the Monero community is now acting as a de facto moderator, telling people what they can say and what they cannot say! 10:54:42 this is a workgroup 10:54:52 Mirrors... use them... 10:55:10 🪞♿️ 10:56:48 Which marginalized group are you insulting now? 10:57:23 Personal vendettas should be considered offtopic imo 10:57:33 rottenwheel you have a WIP CCS, i expect you to carry yourself better in the community workgroup channel. potty mouth insults and comments on peoples appearance (although there was back and forth) are not good reading 10:59:29 plowsof: so... how long should I stay in the corner for? https://d2gg9evh47fn9z.cloudfront.net/800px_COLOURBOX5516170.jpg 11:01:16 Shat 11:01:37 what** back and forth? The gay comment was uncalled for 11:02:20 As was the trannie comment, or the wheelchair one 11:14:50 midipoet: which country do you think would be appropriate for an LLC in this case? Contrary to what most people think here, it wouldn't be so unusual to have a legal entity behind Monero because this is how many large (non-crypto) FOSS projects also operate. We could also find a fiscal host entity that doesn't solely focus on Monero. 11:16:23 I doubt putting a LLC entity in charge of managing the monero project in general to be a good idea 11:16:31 I think the latter would prevent corruption to a degree even. 11:17:01 While not keeping that entity responsible for any sanctions if they were to happen 11:17:05 Monero is a registered entity, isnt it 11:17:08 oh i see, the look in the mirror emoji "🪞♿️", lets sweep that under "comments on peoples appearance" / libera policy warning, or, are we using cards now? rottenwheel, yellow card! you are still getting a gift for helping out on -site today but im disappointed! we're role playing here, and that kinda stuff is totally out of character (OOC) / offtopic / bad etiquette IMO pls continue 11:17:10 Because they're just a fiscal host 11:18:59 If you don't know what a fiscal host for FOSS projects is, here are some examples: 11:19:00 https://opencollective.com/europe 11:19:02 https://nlnet.nl/ 11:23:05 Monerokon's current entity (TE) could also be used for this purpose. TE would not own Monero project/brand but it could handle donations and keep books. 11:24:18 If we had a fiscal host there would be consequences for incidents like how the CCS wallet was emptied and there was no post mortem. 11:24:34 I do not support this 11:24:35 So there would be incentive to not steal from the project or do corruption overall. 11:26:16 One little note, if I may... As far as I know siren, nihilist and xmrfamily weren't around for the community/space fallout, and y'all, along with midipoet, seem to drag Monero, the project, with the issue. Let me be clear, the LLC was going to be registered for Community Workgroup, not the whole project. 11:26:37 To siren point, the goal was exactly that, handle donation, keep books. Give structure and formalization to the workgroup. 11:26:46 imo the biggest long term threat is still regulation, so I dont think adding more legal liabilities is a wise move 11:27:09 Otherwise it is very loose for contributors like sgp, nm90, Diego, xmrscott, even, to keep using funds from their pocket, or mix personal bank accounts with community funds, or viceversa. 11:27:17 +1 ct 11:27:45 Forming an LLC with a bank account registered under it, would allow a legal "multisig", accountability, even tax benefits, depending on jurisdiction, etc. 11:27:55 Gf pays for the infra, what are u talking about 11:28:06 For this reason the best option seems to find a host that we don't control. Worst case scenario is them showing us the door. 11:28:08 Sgp pays for sgp's own initiatives 11:28:23 The whole appropriating community assets, or "serving EU users" while the LLC is formed in USA makes little to no sense. 11:31:56 Well it sucks this project is basically doomed with corruption 11:32:23 ye... 11:32:33 But who cares I guess, as long as the money comes back and people don't steal as much it will continue existing. Or someone will fork it. 11:34:03 someone made a comment one of these days that struck home, as discouraging as it sounded. it was Dan's. https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-community/20240703#c394458 11:34:31 "Here they give them the wallet back" 11:34:52 Speaking of... luigi1111 https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/923#issuecomment-2194105468 11:35:28 How is that discouraging? 11:37:33 This 💯 11:38:02 In usa creating llc doesn't really do shit. Banks still cunts when it comes to opening business bank accounts 11:38:21 dukenukem: Yes, I've seen the GitHub thread and offered to help as well. Unfortunately this sounds like a "culture" issue. People religiously trust some of the core members. It's cult-like. This incident wouldn't have been forgotten so fast or excused in another software project. 11:38:24 In usa creating llc doesn't really do shit. Banks still cunts when it comes to opening business bank accounts for crypto related 11:38:35 luigi was supposed to hold the wallet til end of march, but then he decided he'd hold on a bit longer 11:38:50 A bank account isn't required. 11:39:17 Monero tech amazing. People still idiots can't really update that 11:39:18 "forgotten so fast or excused in another software project." It would have been reported to the community in less than 60 days too 11:39:29 siren Agreed... 11:39:35 I'm just saying llc isn't going to do that much 11:40:10 Fraud/embezzlement/ scams still happen all the time in businesses 11:40:11 rotten, with all due respect, Serving EU customers absolutely, 100%, means an an LLC in the US is required to be compliant with EU regs. 11:40:23 zzz. 11:40:25 I would be happy to make a sizeable bet with you on this 11:40:32 No need. 11:40:46 If you don't care about that fine, but it's not an unfounded fear 11:40:47 Where are the EU customers in a Community Workgroup LLC? 11:40:55 I'm practice it may well mean absolutely nothing 11:40:57 What is the service or product being "sold" here? 11:41:01 Hypothetically speaking. 11:43:49 They would have been (if i recall) registered users of a mastadon/discord instance (i can't remember which one). Whatever that monero space thing was on (if i recall). PLUS there were other plans to develop the community workgroup, which may have meant other liabilities. You'd have to ask them what they wanted to develop. 11:44:27 How many businesses do you run to know this? There is no way on earth you could get away with the fact that all your funds suddenly disappeared overnight. 11:45:08 Ftx? I am not telling you shit about me 11:45:09 And they magically reappeared later on lmao. 11:45:56 We encountered the same practical need for events, and after some open and transparent discussion with all, went with some form of non-profit. If i recall, the last LLC went straight to a CCS with little to no discussion with anyone. Then it all blew up 11:46:36 midipoet: Potentially enterprise support could be offered, sponsorships could be accepted (eg. small paid banners placed in GitHub releases, documentation etc.). And of course the main source of income would be donations. 11:46:40 What did you expect? If events did the same, with self appointed directors, there would have been the same "wtf" 11:46:56 midipoet: Mastodon, I think. 11:46:59 If i recall, in events, we nominated people and the community voted 11:46:59 Onecoin and Ruja Ignatova who is rn fbi most wanted(big reward increase lately) 11:47:15 midipoet: so it'd come down to GDPR and data protection laws and blabla at that point, no? 11:47:27 100% I support non profit 11:47:29 Fuck llc 11:47:51 If you choose to have a LLC, you're opening the door to regulations, that's all centralisation leads to eventually. Those at the head of a LLC have a target painted on their backs in case of non-compliances 11:47:54 Yes, a lot of bla bla 11:48:03 siren the plot thickens when you factor in that the "refund" of the stolen funds was exactly the same amount + 21. The supply cap of BTC. lol 11:48:11 😅 I'm not expert in eu regulations to give good opinion 11:48:36 What i am trying to say is that "the issue" was surmountable. It just required more thought and discussion 11:48:51