13:02:58 Meeting in 2hrs https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1060 14:57:16 test 14:57:55 DataHoarder is m-relay okay 14:58:14 was till I went to sleep 14:58:28 05:35:04 *** m-relay (~m-relay@user/datahoarder/bot/lucky-bot) has quit (Excess Flood) 14:58:34 flood again 14:59:51 hopefully an active community causes this and not malicious spammers 15:00:09 🫠 15:00:25 it also is never able to come back online, issues of that software itself 15:00:42 Datahoarder never sleeps and has fixed the problem 15:01:06 it literally died a few minutes after I went to sleep, it KNOWS 15:01:17 lol thanks Datahoarder! 15:01:32 Meeting time https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1060 15:01:35 Greetings! 15:02:07 Hello 15:02:13 hi 15:02:18 Aloha 15:02:42 Rucknium left an in-depth comment on boog900's proposal for bandwidth reduction here (goes into the privacy considerations of the proposed method) https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/9334#issuecomment-2307824031 15:03:51 cypherstack released a [Monero Analysis report](https://github.com/cypherstack/pup-monero-analysis/releases/tag/final) and Monero CLI/GUI versions 18.3.4 has been released! 15:04:53 anyone wish to highlight something else that happened over this week? 15:06:45 we can jump into the ccs merge list if not https://ccs.getmonero.org/ideas/ 15:09:34 ok lets go over them (there are new ones also) 15:09:42 a. [New Monero Website](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/450) benched until a new design - site workgroup is reaching consensus on this and Diego has spearheaded the setting of a penpot instance @ https://design.getmonero.org/#/auth/login and is actively researching astro / new design. 15:09:52 not much else to say about this until the design is resolved 15:10:00 Design is resolved 15:10:21 Diego Salazar: 15:11:50 pretty sure it goes like this: were using hammerman's design with some changes to the layout 15:12:08 nice, we can circle back to this then. if all is well we can look at merging this . and because unstoppableswaps got to adjust rates, so can we all, yay! 15:12:24 exciting 15:12:56 yes that was my small take from the last -site meeting, overall the color theme is OK 15:13:24 we can move on then pending any comments from Diego? 15:13:34 and janaka of course if theyre here 15:13:38 yea 15:14:00 b. [hinto-janai full-time work on Cuprate (3 months)](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/484) 15:14:20 hinto requested feedback in the cuprate group 15:14:48 boog900 left a thumbs up 15:15:55 No comments, just waiting the design proposal 15:16:21 thanks for the confirmation janaka 15:16:24 I think an important question about cuprate as a whole: projected cost to bring to production 15:17:07 Rucknium looked into the zcash rust node conversion and found about 3~ish million usd of funding 15:17:46 Zcash everything is about 3-10x monero, isnt it 15:17:48 we currently have 2 funded cuprate devs on the ccs, im not sure how many works on/maintains zcash rust node implementation 15:18:05 (except for usage and price) 15:21:13 merging hinto then, next? :D 15:21:33 Yes 15:21:41 c. [0xfffc 3 months full-time dev.](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/487) 15:21:44 No comments 🤷‍♂️ 15:21:49 +1 15:21:57 (as in: merge) 15:22:43 +1 0xfffc 15:22:46 i see only positive remarks from other devs for 0xfff merging, next 15:22:49 IMHO, when cuprate gets a binary, it will be out of "limbo". I say "limbo" because AFAIK only cuprate devs are reviewing each other's work in depth. Once a binary is available, many people can test it out. That should settle questions about how the development is going. 15:23:16 they merge their own ccs proposals in the mean time without any over sight 15:24:35 0xfffc has been working hard on deep, long-term monerod issues. +1 15:24:50 merging 0xfff thanks for the feedback so far 15:25:09 d. [Haveno Multi-Platform Native App For Every OS](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/489) 15:25:32 ill hold off on this one as its only just taken shape / open for feedback 15:25:42 unless its a merge for people here? 15:26:23 I havent read through the details enough, but the project is sane, license issue was corrected 15:27:04 I think mobile access is one of the greatest deterrants for users 15:27:34 using a haveno instance needing only to "open an app" would be huge 15:27:41 Localmonero had an app. My main concern would be if its "reto-only" or if compatible with forks 15:27:46 Could this satisfy some requirements of the old Haveno UI CCS? 15:27:55 Nop 15:28:13 ok 15:28:31 Old haveno ui ccs was extremely vague and was for a desktop frontend 15:28:46 id have to look at it closely to give an opinion. kewbits solution is on desktop (multi OS) 15:29:26 if the question is about re purposing haveno funds to fund kewbit 15:29:54 The bounty funds should be repurposed imo 15:30:21 so we can definitley say people want it, and can it support multiple instances of haveno or are we funding a 'haveno reto app' which i dont like 15:30:42 +1 ^ 15:31:04 i will channel monerobulls spirit and give it a -1 to balance out 15:31:18 Should ping woodser for comment as well 15:31:35 yes, it shuld take shape over the next coming days 15:31:44 you'll get to choose the network as part of an initial consideration process so long as they havent deviated away from woodsers protocol 15:32:14 you'll get to choose the network as part of an initial configuration process so long as they havent deviated away from woodsers protocol 15:32:26 if monerobull where here he would say no, it has to be reto only, how dare you fragment the network and let people get scammed 15:32:35 😂 15:32:51 I am here 15:33:01 welcome 15:33:06 Well, people can take the advice to use reto, or ignore it and on their head be it 15:33:16 sane 15:33:47 I still think it's not a good move to promote "multi network" when there literally is only one network 15:33:49 perhaps we coulddddd put it as a default..... but that would have to be a community vote too 15:33:57 Tor Integration: The app will enforce Tor usage, requiring users to connect via a Tor VPN relay (such as Orbot or InviZible). Without a Tor connection, the app will not proceed past the splash screen 15:33:59 Only vpn mode ? Proxy mode ? 15:34:12 And you pinky-swear to keep maintaining it? 15:34:29 according to erccicone haveno reto is illegal. so the ccs funding something illegal might be sus 15:34:33 It's more secure this way, no leaks. 15:34:35 100% 15:34:43 Erciccione is illegal 15:34:54 I'm working on it since Thursday morning and havent slept lol 15:34:55 those words have just been said also and i am not a lawyer 15:34:59 I swear to god 15:35:13 Why can't it be stagenet only 15:35:15 Nobody wants every app data going through tor 15:35:26 Like haveno software 15:35:27 And the network has to adjust and publish itself 15:35:38 cover our asses and make it stagenet only and let someone fork it monerobull? thats a nice option 15:35:41 +1. It should allow lan 15:35:53 Not everyone wants every app data going through tor 15:36:08 Yeah plow, essentially have it be "reference software" 15:36:10 Nym support please :p 15:36:18 It's configurable, you select just Haveno, it's better to abstract the VPN because you need special entitlements and signing to use on big app stored, by using Orbot, we make it compatible with big app stores along with fdroid 15:36:46 and I aint signing shit for the appstore sorry 15:37:07 we dont want contributors to go on vacation like poksst neither 15:37:27 making sure this ccs is above board for longevity is a priority 15:37:32 +1 15:37:36 it's better overall for FOSS standards if we do it like this, Orbot wont ever get banned, but if we incorporate VPN proxy to haveno we lose some ability to be censorship resistant 15:37:48 orbot is trashola 15:37:56 Tor should be optional imo. Monerujo wallet for example only works with Orbot. And it's not user-friendly 15:38:05 You can use 15:38:10 InviZible too 15:38:12 Tor, period. I can run my tor daemon in termux if i want. Not using or installing orbot 15:38:24 Tor shouldn’t be optional, but proxy mode should be available 15:38:25 Or I can just implement Arti or something but it wont be as secure im telling you 15:38:33 they dont have vanguard support yet I think 15:38:56 just make it a socks proxy.. that way it can be i2p as well 15:39:05 lederstrumpf adding atomic swaps to this haveno ui was mentioned but removed as it was out of scope 15:39:13 This is a unique challenge with gRPC http/2 over sock5 15:39:30 Tor and tor onions can be incredibly unreliable during ddos 15:39:45 I thought you cannot connect to Haveno peers without Tor. Is that false? 15:39:47 cc'ing for the future unstoppableswaps / farcaster / eth-xmr / haveno ultimate client 15:39:53 I could use envoy to translate the http/1 to http2, but thats also trashola 15:40:23 I would argue thast more trashola than using orbot 15:40:33 The app connects to a running haveno instance, correct? 15:40:51 Oh right. 15:40:54 I can try doing native libs on every OS but it would take longer 15:41:32 I forgot about that detail. So it makes it less user friendly for phone-only users 15:42:17 It is for people who are doing trades while away from their machine 15:42:22 so far all mobile apps in the monero ecosystem struggle with the tor issue? ive heard of some apps with it bundled in directly 15:42:30 I want talking to @sneurlax today about this and the conversation was fairly optimistic 15:43:07 Bundling with it directly is either messy, complex or insecure, one of the 3. 15:43:32 i prefer external tor 15:43:38 AFAIK it is easier to do Tor if you are connecting to a consumer/home machine since you don't have to open ports on routers or have a static IP address 15:43:48 Even haveno itself started using external iirc 15:43:49 unrelated to this proposal but i would be interested in hearing valldracs thoughts on that if he has any reg bundled vs external tor 15:44:16 Ruck: yep. Onion/i2p make it simple to punch through the firewall 15:44:32 Molly uses socks proxy 15:45:00 I looked at CakeWallet 15:45:12 oh nice 15:45:15 it seems they are trying to implement Arti based Tor 15:45:15 Diego / stack and mysu use bundled 15:45:33 Stack doesnt work with onions unless you ysevthe bundled tor 15:45:50 It might work for them as I presume they're using http1 based requests to xmr nodes rshter than grpc 15:46:05 Connecting to tor ONLY when you want to make transactions is sus 15:46:30 You can leave orbot on, and have it ONLY connect to haveno 15:46:39 Yep 15:46:47 with 15 mins left and plenty discussion over kewbits i think we can move on shortly? 15:47:12 starts on boot too, so does the haveno app background service 15:47:19 ack - thanks. kewbit: why have atomic swaps been removed from the scope? it was a highlight in your original title ;) 15:47:30 :D 15:47:33 I was asked to remove it 15:47:42 Same with Hardware wallets 15:47:44 because haveno has nothing to do with atomic swaps 15:47:48 So I did 15:48:27 haveno is a standalone service. I dont see why the app should be a fleamarket 15:48:28 I wasn't nessesarily limiting to the haveno ecosystem, it was a larger vision to bring more liquidity into a single place 15:48:57 it should be a natural upgrade path though, no? 15:49:12 No. Haveno is fiat<>xmr and xmr<>crypto 15:49:25 Fair enough, but frankly I wouldnt describe it as that, nor do I see it as an issue, but I removed it nonetheless. 15:49:42 sure. and atomic swaps are xmr<>crypto 15:49:53 i'm being extra hard on the idea of having multiple services, because this should be a "haveno" app 15:49:59 atomic swaps deprecate havenos crypto swaps 15:50:10 +1 plowsof 15:50:12 lol 15:50:13 So its haveno, BTC -> XMR 15:50:15 BCH -> XMR etc etc 15:50:28 haveno has no crypto swaps only p2p fiat :) 15:50:33 yeah that's fair 15:50:56 but how many years until more swap pairs? 15:51:16 Bisq does 0 volume for every pair except for btc<>xmr 15:51:19 basicswapdex has many but thats another project 15:51:50 lets move on before too many cans of worms are opened 15:51:54 exactly. so for haveno to remain relevant for xmr<>crypto, it makes sense to integrate atomic swaps there. whatever it's original design was should be a secondary consideration imo. 15:51:55 Whats the average amount of offers on bisq at any given time 15:52:20 positive sentiment on this proposal clearly, open for feedback and input as discussed here 15:52:21 Haveno needs to implement atomic swaps then, not this app implementing unstoppableswaps etc 15:52:37 moving on, e. [j-berman full-time development (3 months)](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/491) 15:52:41 +1 j-berman 15:52:43 Leder, this is for a mobile app for haveno. Not for haveno 15:53:25 j-berman making good progress on FCMP++ implementation. +1 15:53:55 I’m happy either way, whatever it’s quickest. 15:54:06 merging j-berman 15:54:30 cc kayabanerve 15:55:21 Ultimately trying to implement atomic swaps will probably take up time better spent on haveno specifics 15:55:42 f. [tobtoht full-time feather + core development (3 months)](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/492) 15:55:46 +1 tobi 15:55:54 +1 tob 15:56:20 And welcome back 15:56:40 featherwallet.org consistently updates monero before all wallets, including monero gui/cli xD 15:56:54 as in releases with latest monero 15:57:03 wouldn't be without your builds plow ;) 15:57:15 +1 15:57:35 https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/8929 15:57:42 Looking forward to this as well 15:57:57 Will the planned Feather multisig support enable multisig CCS wallet? 15:57:59 progress updates are shared in #feather:monero.social . the bootstrappable / guix build process just feels alot easier than gitian, in part due to tobtohts docs/help, thanks 15:58:15 Surely we need tobtoht 15:58:34 I guess the answer is obvious, but I wanted to bring up multisig CCS again :D 15:58:40 feather multisig support is intended to solve the ccs and generalfund wallet issue 15:58:51 rucknium: "Will the planned Feather multisig support enable multisig CCS wallet?" <- that's the point of the exercise, yes 15:59:47 AFAIK the 2024 general fund transparency report hasn't been released yet 16:00:03 correct. well over a year since the last one 16:00:04 correct 16:00:09 Just an opportunity to bring it up :D 16:00:36 merging tobtoht 16:00:42 thanks all :) 16:00:55 AOB - noting ccs transparency report 16:01:05 https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/998 trans report request 16:02:01 otherwise thank you all for attending and giving feedback at short notice, lets push these proposals through 16:03:01 Thats why your name is plow 16:07:35 We should have a transparency report every month 16:07:56 we dont even have merges every month 16:08:22 But the funds has donations 16:09:22 We discuss about merging proposal, allocating money from the funds, but we (or at least I) don't know how much is in the fund 16:10:16 janaka: Do you think the General Fund contributes to most CCS proposals? It doesn't 16:10:44 You can see donations going to the GF wallet with its view key. There is even a twitter account 16:11:45 IMHO, doing a transparency report once a month is a lot for unpaid workers to do. Maybe once a quarter could be good. Once a year is the minimum probably 16:12:06 Right but I want to know the current balance, all the transactions in and out 16:12:13 Real transparency 16:12:15 Core does the general fund transparency report and Core can never be paid 16:12:59 Is it that hard to make that report? 16:14:15 From observation, we may infer "Yes". 16:14:48 Because it doesn't get done often. And other Core duties don't get done often 16:15:47 Lazy ass 16:16:26 Core has an open invitation to anyone who wants to overthrow them 16:16:56 The situation isn't ideal, yes 16:17:29 For sure, it works for now because Monero is small, but at as point governance will have to evolve 16:17:36 I accept 16:17:39 For sure, it works for now because Monero is small, but at some point governance will have to evolve 16:19:03 It may evolve when more people want to take more responsibility. Hard to find trusted people to take more responsibility. 16:20:04 I dont think thats the first blocker 16:20:32 "Proposal: Disband Core" https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/921 16:21:06 Luigi said he was going to stop managing ccs wallet by march, but then blocked my request to have my ccs escrowed by someone else 16:21:53 Seems to me that fluffy was the only core member who actually wanted to open up the floor 16:23:55 when it comes to monero repo merges, luigi is good. When it comes to site deployment or signing binaries, bf is good. 16:23:57 when it comes to managing money, i dont like that either of them has single signer wallets 16:24:37 Especially since one of them was drained.. and the other one we have 0 insight into until 12+months after our last look 16:25:48 yep 16:27:24 We dont see any of the invoices for the bills that generalfund pays. We just take bf at his word that he had to replenish 15k 16:27:49 dont care. at the end if core exhausts as tired individuals it'll either be the loudest one winning the position or the most silent and efficient one. 16:30:16 I support Rucknium and rbrunner7 as future core 16:30:19 because they don't talk 16:30:24 so we can't make drama out of them 16:30:30 talk talk talk talk 16:30:46 lmao 16:35:11 bf doesnt talk, that doesnt stop us from making drama out of it 16:35:24 SyntheticBird doesn't know that the community's first introduction to me was full of drama. Anyway, IMHO research and Core should be separate so that researchers can speak the truth, even if it puts the protocol in a negative light. 16:36:27 no way I didn't know that. 16:36:35 also yes I agree. 16:37:02 Thats why since Rucknium and Rbrunner refused the job I'm obligated to step up as new core 16:37:23 nevermind i'm hungry, i step down 16:37:56 You already own the monero-project repos on librejo :P 16:39:34 I appreciate you trying to comfort me but truth is i have dictatorial needs and the poor 6 users I've on librejo aren't enough to attenuate my blood thirst 16:42:19 btw kewbit if you want you can backup your working repo on https://librejo.monerodevs.org 16:42:41 you can sign in with your Github account directly if needed 16:48:30 Sorry for interrupting but 16:48:31 Can someone tell me that: 16:48:33 Are there any differences between mastodon and lemmy aside from mastodon leaning towards twitter and lemmy to reddit? 16:49:25 yeah thats basically it. The two are using ActivityPub and are by definiton part of the ***Fediverse*** 16:50:46 What's the recommended app for android and linux for using lemmy? 16:51:17