01:34:08 i left the monero markets room 01:39:17 <321bob321:monero.social> Yeah its beyond a joke 01:39:26 <321bob321:monero.social> Banhammer is in that room too 01:41:02 why isn't it working ? 01:41:20 make it moderated invite only for sometime 02:15:19 <321bob321:monero.social> Or ban in all the rooms it controls 03:45:27 made my second CCS proposal: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/502 03:46:20 first one should be changed to completed. 04:15:03 Mumuks: 04:48:21 mumuks AWOL 05:03:07 <321bob321:monero.social> Create a ccs for working holiday in africa to find him/her/google 06:10:03 hinto-janai full-time work on Cuprate (3 months) is now fully funded! https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/hinto-3.html @luigi1111 13:25:31 Meeting in 1 hour, 36~mins https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1072 14:16:24 Banhammer: BanhammerMonero: plz ban this hs from -markets kthx 15:00:06 Meeting time https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1072 15:00:11 greetings! 15:00:49 Hi 15:01:06 хола 15:01:10 Hello. 15:01:14 hola 15:01:26 Hi! 15:01:37 sorry was on my KGB keyboard 15:01:54 We're excited to see everyone joining this meeting! if you take a look at @moneros tweets, instead of only "we're excited tweets" we have a mixture https://xcancel.com/monero 15:02:08 (: 15:02:36 they mentioned jeffros Carrot 🥕 also https://xcancel.com/monero/status/1834292929877180697#m 15:02:38 Hi 15:03:42 so it seems an effort is being made to mix things up on the monero handle 15:04:07 "Chainalysis video leak and the cointelegraph chronicles" -> fluffypony made a twoot https://xcancel.com/fluffypony/status/1833962340502696113#m 15:04:54 quite the streissand effect, seeing alot of community members share their hosted versions of the film also 15:05:00 Off topic for this meeting, but isnt there some added confusion / migration if were going from cryptonote > carrot > jamtis? 3 diff addresseses? 15:05:21 k4r4b3y: waz featured in fluffy's tweet 15:05:51 hi 15:05:56 hello 15:06:58 also sgp / fluffypony contributing to openaliasv2 - theyre quite a long way and are beginning testing https://github.com/openalias/openalias-spec #openalias 15:08:18 is carrot (https://github.com/jeffro256/carrot/blob/master/carrot.md) built on top of jamtis? 15:09:49 Probably also off topic, but could there be a map on monero-docs, for all this things, I realize the first time that Carrot has something to do with monero :/ How you all stay productive and keep track of all going on around? 15:10:12 might even receive an implementation audit before jamtis.. will be following mrl/nwlb meetings 15:10:13 A map? 15:10:37 Monero-docs is still a WIP, the folder structure etc isnt set yet 15:11:08 Afaik, carrot is an alternative to jamtis 15:11:13 Not directly related 15:11:19 JAMTIS++ 15:11:19 yeah, where possible inclusions or sure inclusions are in some graph, and some timeline or event updates 15:12:04 a roadmap? 15:12:24 Sorry, for being that vague, I don't have a good idea (yet) how to archive that - only one of my thought what should exist 15:12:46 when it picks up more input from MRL / implementation audits we'll know its the more likely the direction. (unless the committee has decided??) 15:13:05 Adding stuff like jamtis, fcmp, bulletproofs etc should all be in the plans 15:13:24 The developer/cryptography section is pretty light atm, even missing randomx 15:13:36 28 mentions of jamtis in the proposal, so yeah seems like it's building on top of it 15:13:43 Not really a roadmap, how somehow some things are not yet sure (I guess - if and when they will be implemented - but somehow to not loose track of parallel ongoing things who could influence the source you are working on later.. 15:13:47 I mean in the readme 15:14:03 yep tevador and jeffro mashup 15:14:41 i think the glaring benefit would be monero-lws implementations with more privacy when compared to what we have now 15:15:48 any other highlights to touch on before we get to ccs proposal ideas? 15:16:16 News: [Monero Observer](https://www.monero.observer/) - [Revuo Monero](https://revuo-xmr.com/) - [Monero Moon](https://www.themoneromoon.com/) 15:16:33 vthor: Follow discussions in the weekly Wednesday meeting in #monero-research-lab 15:17:26 What's certain and uncertain in long-term development will be a matter of opinion. 15:17:49 So you can follow discussions and form your own :) 15:17:59 rucknium, thank you, is this room also logged, and are the meatings always same day/time or how to keep track best to no miss anything? 15:18:28 thanks Rucknium, vthor all meetings are scheduled on monero-meta repo. ok lets move on. The "new website" proposal awaits confirming of the consensus the the website workgroup gained consensus on. i think its best we just leave it at that and 15:19:23 The one thing to comment abt the website 15:19:24 leave it at that, unless anyone wants to give input. they have proposed a competition / comparing of sorts. and feedback of the wider audience is being gathered, monerobull made reddit / monero.town threads a. Design competition for the new getmonero Site? 15:19:29 Yes, always logged at https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-research-lab and https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues?q=is%3Aissue+%22Monero+Research+Lab%22 15:19:41 The new Monero website looks bloody amazing 15:19:44 Is that there is a sort of competition/vote 15:19:47 Always Wednesdays at 17:00 UTC 15:19:50 Proposal 15:20:05 Currently a lot of feedback likes the old design too 15:20:27 There are a fee design candidates. 1. Keep as is, add dark mode etc. 2. Hammermans design. 3. diegos's design(s) 4. Other 15:21:07 I dont have the reddit link that has the previews 15:21:14 rucknium, cool, thank you ver much! :) 15:21:20 searching monero.town for monerobulls thread 15:21:41 monero.town blocks tor so no can do lok 15:21:46 https://monero.town/post/4289749 15:22:04 there is a mirror on reddit also. 15:22:22 https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1felb8e/the_future_of_getmoneroorg_looking_for_feedback/ 15:22:27 thank you! 15:23:15 seems like ~80% of the comments want to stick with the old design 15:23:26 i.e. current one 15:23:31 and the next website meeting is tomorrow https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1073 15:23:57 diegos design is just too powerful, even 10 years later the people still want it 15:23:59 Thanks geo 15:24:28 btw Hammermann's proposal is 3+ years old 15:24:46 https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-site/20210831 15:25:40 i thinks we can move on with a somewhat full picture of the "new site" gate 15:26:25 b. [Haveno Multi-Platform Native App For Every OS](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/489) 15:26:34 when merge? 15:27:03 My only comment on this ^ is that the milestone payouts should have some correlation with the mikestones 15:27:23 I will make some minor adjustments 15:27:27 description must == proposal but kewbit is aware, only some small changes 15:27:31 Currently they are set to specific dates (that may or may not be in line with the work) 15:27:54 woodser is on-board also 15:28:06 +1 15:28:23 are the basicswap payouts correlated to milestones? 15:28:43 here's my only concern 15:28:46 Yes 15:28:48 merge to work in progress using a portion of funds from the old project. team 'we want a web app' have 100xmr~ bounty dedicated to the funding of such 15:28:50 the haveno ccs was to create a desktop ui 15:28:51 hi woodser 15:29:05 if funds are repurposed from haveno funds for the mobile app, it will likely affect our ability to finish design and implementation of the full desktop app 15:29:30 Haveno desktop ui ccs shoukd be forfeitted anyway 15:29:43 I think the funding is enough to get the desktop UI concept implemented 15:29:47 all sorts of promises were made that can and will never be kept 15:30:14 there will be a desktop app + ui from kewbits proposal. its my understanding that 'fine tuning' of the ui may be needed for desktop? but this can be future work? 15:30:27 we have plans to evolve the mobile app being developed into a desktop version, as the base framework will be established 15:31:11 kewbit's proposal is for a desktop daemon and mobile app with ui, and the desktop ui will be primitive (correct me if I'm wrong) 15:31:17 The desktop app as mentioned in our discussions. before woodser can and will be implemented natively as well which conforms to the original design specifics it seems there is also a bounty that FreeRoss is working on that may also suit those needs from a separate funding angle. 15:31:56 the 100 xmr is for a "web app" alternative, we do have supporters of this 15:32:09 So you got two options though it’s likely that one will deprecate the other 15:32:44 how much is sitting in the haveno ui CCS? 15:32:45 we only have ~413 xmr remaining in haveno ccs last I knew, so if 215 go to mobile app, we probably would not have enough to finish design/implementation of full desktop app 15:32:51 So you got two options though it’s likely that one will deprecate the other **possibly 15:33:33 I think webui is a waste of money 15:33:40 Open a new ccs 15:33:47 App + daemon with a nice GUI benefits us much more 15:33:55 Old one failed miserably 15:34:19 thanks woodser, funding a multi OS app that is fine tuned for mobile, and functional / not so fine tuned for desktop is a huge improvement than nothing 15:34:32 Kewbit has basically already built the entire app with zero funding 15:34:45 So I'm confident they can realize GUI + app 15:34:49 haveno desktop UI ccs should be jetfunded and funds used for new proposals (like kewbits) 15:34:52 can someone link to the Haveno ccs 15:35:12 Please remember that the functional usage of the mobile app works just as well as it does on the mobile, so this does not block the desktop usage upon release. The v2 to complete the desktop design as per the Figma in the haveno-dex repo is a nice to have and I’m sure there will in fact be enough funding, even there is not, i will pledge to contribute a certain amount of hours as a noble cause. 15:35:18 https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/haveno-frontend.html 15:35:54 The ccs makes all sorts of bs backend promises and kept 0 15:36:04 woodser: are you expecting to complete that ccs? 15:36:06 Please remember that the functional usage of the desktop app works just as well as it does on the mobile, so this does not block the desktop usage upon release. The v2 to complete the desktop design as per the Figma in the haveno-dex repo is a nice to have and I’m sure there will in fact be enough funding, even there is not, i will pledge to contribute a certain amount of hours as a noble cause. 15:36:12 Kewbit da goat 🐐 15:36:13 Its invalid and should be repurposed 15:36:22 Ofrn nobody cares about abandoned haveno CCS 15:36:27 the merge request llooking to close the Haveno front end ccs https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/497 15:36:37 Its impossible to complete the ccs 15:36:56 okay so merge and move on? 15:37:01 the current plan is to start with kewbit's mobile app, then evolve that app into a full desktop version, so it would be completed eventually, yes 15:37:06 Just assign the 400 xmr from the CCS plus the 100 from the bounty to kewbit building app + desktop figma gui 15:37:13 Most efficient, kewbit already proved himself 15:37:26 plowsof mentions 453 xmr left, woodser says 413. are these different pools of money? 15:37:52 did i set aside funds for myself secretly? id have to confirm 15:37:57 my numbers are approximate, I don't know exactly what's left 15:38:23 what's 40 xmr between friends anyways 15:38:29 Haveno frontend ccs cant be completed unless haveno runs a network. Read the proposal. 15:38:32 the total is derrived from the payouts here https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/blob/master/haveno-frontend.md 15:38:46 Its 453 15:38:49 okay merge and move on 15:38:56 seven five five... minus... uhm 15:39:00 hang on 15:39:11 Ofrn nobody cares about if it can be completed or not, just give the funds to kewbit 15:39:13 minus 151 + 151 15:39:18 755/5*3 15:39:21 If anyone is still in doubt and requires builds for each platform to test I am happy to provide these, for you to test in emulators / VirtualBox but once the decision is finalised I will release all the source code anyway. 15:39:28 497 15:39:54 great 15:39:57 https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/497 15:40:02 453 is left over geonic, i audited it 15:40:19 is woodser being funded to work on Haveno atm? 15:40:31 that is proprietary knowledge 15:40:34 no 15:40:43 sponsors / sponsorships haveno has obtained are not public knowledge 15:40:52 i think we can move on to cover the other proposals 15:40:55 Woodser has equity I believe 15:40:58 With Vik 15:41:17 https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/495 15:41:21 c. [Offline Signing Library for XmrSigner Production](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/495) 15:41:27 vthor is next 15:41:45 only thing i would change is do this in rust instead 15:41:48 tobtoht is away this weekend so is unable to comment 15:42:26 interested to see kayabanerve s opinion on this with a fuller understanding of whats going on 15:42:28 Vthor's proposal had a lot of commentary from tob and kaya. I'm unsure of the conclusion 15:42:38 still pending yes 15:42:45 Oh oh can we please have serai support 😳👉👈 15:43:02 hey, I'm on the last sentense to respond to tobtoht's comment. 15:43:32 vthor and spirobel work together and get it done in half the time. Or in the same amount of time, but twice as good :) 15:43:53 I have a hard time to speak with more then on person at once and in a high pace, so I would appreciate if you could let comments on the proposal I will respond! 15:43:55 And the Molly dev can get in there, too 15:44:02 Or twice as long and half as good :D /s 15:44:18 my wife says that about her bf 15:44:39 ruckmium, yes, there are some overlaps with spirobels proposal. 15:44:42 Hahahahaha 15:44:58 vthor's proposal seems possible. tobtoht, IMO, questioned impact and noted what would increase potential impact. I'm unsure this'll be used anywhere outside of xmrsigner and would not endorse it with that expectation. 15:45:37 The Molly dev was a Flutter lib. vthor is C++. I'm unsure what exactly spirobel's would be. 15:46:49 spirobal I can see to do it in rust, but not as long I have no complete understanding and overview of the source - because this would be a complete new implementaion at the moment out of scope and I need to get still up to date with C++ especially build process related stuff, and I will always need to test on both sides, what would be for me today (almost) impossible to archive and so it would be for me out of scope. 15:46:55 I prefer spirobel's proposed methodology to wallet2 minification. I'm unsure the latter can have the impact necessary, see tobtoht's commentary on the protocol barrier. That doesn't change entirely new protocols aren't going to be adopted at scale and would need to be upstreamed or be limited to certain use cases. 15:47:14 That isn't to say these proposals should be pitted against each other. I'm just commenting on them. 15:48:24 Sorry. Spirobel did say in Rust, as vthor pointed out. I forgot they confirmed that. 15:48:52 what if cuprate are building a better monero-wallet-rpc in rust already? 15:49:23 I'd note vthor's lack of experience as its own issue with vthor's proposals. I'd personally prefer some demonstration of ability prior to a CCS, but I understand how that becomes a request for free labor. 15:50:08 plowsof: Cuprate isn't AFAIK, though I wouldn't be an expert on if they've ever discussed it. boog900: would be who to ping. 15:50:44 ah yes a daemon, they / hinto is busy with RPC json things (for monerod) 15:50:51 thanks 15:51:37 What I will note is monero-rs has existed for years and has been fine to make RPC calls, even though I believe it breaks down when you try to do more with it. They only have limited wallet functionality however. 15:51:42 ok so pending some more back and forth between vthor kayabanerve and tobtoht. kayabas preference is spirobels proposal 15:52:17 kayabanerve: will defenitly not do free labour, can ot even afort it . Wallet-prc on a small hardware device is BS. 15:52:19 vthor apears to be making this, speciically for monero signer . and will benefit other low powered hard ware devices (see the 'monero passport' ) 15:52:21 I did not say that and I must insist you don't misquote me. 15:52:34 I understand it wasn't intentionality and intake no offense but I need to be clear. 15:52:35 so as a laymen i see them being 2 total different projects 15:53:16 sorry, "spirobel's proposed methodology to wallet2 minification." 15:53:40 also consider that the target of this library is very bespoke. I need this as a basis for the browser wallet. more on that in the ccs comments 15:53:44 Yeah Cuprate is just a Rust node at the moment, not a wallet, it would be something I would like to look into in the future though 15:53:46 IMHO, it would be good to get input from some people who commented on the C ABI issues: https://github.com/seraphis-migration/strategy/issues/1 https://github.com/seraphis-migration/strategy/issues/2 15:54:00 I'm no C++ developer, nor Rust (yet) and so yes, in this to language I'm still not expirienced, to putting this == to lack of experience....well what can I say... 15:54:09 vthor: I'm not asking you to do free labor. I'm noting if your competency is questioned, that's against your proposal. The CCS's escrow should resolve that without too much of a concern but I'd have higher confidence if you had already done work with C++. 15:54:30 Your inability to so spend the time without financial compensation is understood and I don't blame you for that. 15:55:13 is rottenwheel here 15:55:37 is hardenedsteel here 15:56:35 spirobels proposal for reference: 15:56:35 e. [Spirobel: Robust and modular wallet-rpc library](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/501) 15:57:44 one thing i want to ask, is are you currently obtaining funding for this project elsewhere? how many xmrs? and is the project obtaining external funding (if any) the exact same work as the proposed task in your ccs proposal? 15:58:20 Hi. Can you please update me on the status of the web-ui bounty? 15:58:47 freeross the we bounty is open, and for you, anyone to claim, but not kewbits method as its not a web wallet (as stated in the bounty) 15:59:53 That is such a tremendous waste of resources based on a technically 16:00:07 bounties do be like that 16:00:13 That is such a tremendous waste of resources based on a technicality 16:00:40 Youre the one who said we should refund donors if we change scope 🙃 16:00:55 Would be great if the donor could have his word in 16:01:05 I said we should if the bounty op sent in the 100 xmr 16:01:08 no we're on the hour with some proposals not discussed 16:01:12 d. [Revuo Monero Maintenance (2024 Q4)](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/496) 16:01:17 I commented on where monero-rs is in the ecosystem. monero-wallet, broken out of monero-serai (soon to be monero-oxide, I know, it's a lot to keep track of right now), implements all of the tasks in spirobel's proposal except transaction storage and any e-commerce flows (it does decouple networking and doesn't do any threading/storage itself, making it portable). It also does comp 16:01:18 ile to no-std environments (such as wasm), but I haven't used it there and seen how nice it actually is on that level. 16:01:20 A practical question is how much should this library do itself, and how much should monero-wallet be used. If monero-wallet isn't viable due to some intricacies with no-std I haven't sufficiently handled, and PRs would be non-trivial, then I'm not against yet another Rust wallet impl (though my concerns about safety and ability apply as usual). If existing work can be leveraged though, great. 16:01:22 jeffro256 raised the question, spirobel notes different goals. I'm unclear exactly where the goals are different. In providing e-commerce flows, sure, yet that raises the question of if this work is most efficiently done by being built around a library like monero-wallet. 16:01:35 Thanks for the clarification ... 16:01:48 freeross, be free, ignore the haters.. claim your bounty!!! 16:01:56 I think more technical discussions could be had to that end. If spirobel is firm in their belief my work isn't to their benefit however, I won't say no to their proposal just because it doesn't use my work. 16:02:01 Maybe the elephant in the room about vThor's proposal is that his previous proposal was supposed to get a production-ready xmrsigner, but this new proposal says we do not have a production-ready xmrsigner yet. I guess the required work was mis-estimated in the first proposal. That type of issue has happened in the past (see koe's Seraphis wallet proposals), but maybe it is a problem. 16:02:31 Up vote on revuo 16:02:40 I can confirm it will never be a web wallet at and point. 16:02:42 (My not saying no isn't an endorsement, I just want to be clear I don't believe that proposal should use my work or shouldn't exist) 16:03:39 +1 revuo 16:03:45 anway guys i have a fever and it is 12 oclock at night here 16:04:09 sorry to hear that spirobel, get well soon, thank you for still attending 16:04:16 I just hope we can get my proposal merged soon. 👍️ 16:04:46 f. [Part-time Work on getmonero.org (2 Month) hardened steel](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/502) 16:05:00 i presume the website meeting can discuss this^ 16:05:21 yep 16:05:28 merge 16:05:28 g. [CCS Coordinator - plowsof](https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/503) 16:05:39 rucknium, how it was exactly my proposal and I decided to take it over I made only view check, seen the libraries and testest that there is a offline wallet in monero-python - without making a transaction, and yes the time was like 5-10x, but I also didn't want to make huge changes on the proposal, because of the timefactor related to finacial issues at that time and after frustration with a bounty I made before - for nothing. 16:05:48 "website workgroup" doesn't contribute to github 16:06:09 lol 16:06:18 on a more practical / less technical note: it will also help payment gateways that currently have some friction. https://x.com/DrunkDialMe_/status/1834981243865510049 many people are faced with that 16:06:35 merge plow 16:06:48 There is also the argument scanning is sufficiently trivial as a reason to not use monero-wallet in spirobel's work. Sending is the really difficult one... 16:07:12 i have decided to give myself a raise more info here https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/503#note_26231 16:07:55 Kaya, "The next step on the road map is to add transaction building and signing functionality to the library and migrate the browser wallet to it." I dont think tx building is part of the proposal? 16:08:42 spirobel https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-community/20240914#c429645 16:08:57 Plowsof's raise is justified imho. He's spent many hrs helping setup (and host) docs and increased responsibilities on -site 16:09:55 next item please 16:10:09 h. Proposal closures / Return funds to General Fund. 16:10:14 The list of initial tasks by spirobel is only for scanning. That's sufficiently trivial (at least, ignoring performance but that changes in a WASM env anyways) I think monero-wallet likely still makes sense to use, but isn't months of work to not use ofrnxmr 16:10:59 what happens with the remaining 200 xmr from haveno's incomplete ccs? 16:11:05 https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests > theres alot of Closures of proposals with funds remaining. they currently (due to the ccs hack / return already eside in the general fund wallet) 16:11:13 reside* 16:11:22 the remaining 200 is benched for further haveno front end work 16:11:50 Sending, and matching the wallet2 behavior, is likely using monero-wallet, forking monero-wallet, at least copying the rule set from monero-wallet, or doing months of work to do it independently though. 16:12:04 For H, propose that we Change rule "donors: 2.the default is that the remaining XMR will be put in the Monero General Fund. There are some exceptions, but they are rare, and these decisions rest with the Core Team." 16:12:22 no. I tried to use kuno for this before, but it didnt really work, because of the scope of the work. Didnt get enough traction (just covered the hosting / domain costs) for monerochan.news / monerochan.cash. I recognize that the CCS is the right way to go for this project. 16:12:47 Ccs funds should stay in ccs. Generalfund is a black hole and has 0 comnuninity control or oversight. 16:12:47 what's the current rule? 16:12:59 oh that's the current rule 16:13:11