02:54:28 Hey dude @rottenwheel, I just posted your proposal! Congrats. https://x.com/MoneroSpace/status/1836961774358384895 02:54:34 Why, thank you! 🤝 02:57:44 plowsof @plowsof:matrix.org https://x.com/MoneroSpace/status/1836962838591721534 02:58:03 nitter: https://xcancel.com/MoneroSpace/status/1836962838591721534 05:21:36 About those "github-scanner" notification emails that some of us received: https://ianspence.com/blog/2024-09/github-email-hijack/ 05:36:39 Thanks for sharing rbrunner 05:39:39 And the setup.exe for electrum-xmr is just a few KB over the limit of 650 MB of files that you can report to and check with VirusTotal.com - such coincidence, how convenient. 07:00:41 meanwhile we're trying to remove mining code from our wallets... constantly false flagged as malicious software by near all antivuruses(tm) 07:01:33 Right. "The world is unjust", German saying. 08:15:54 Morpheus: is trocador not available in the UK? reddit comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1fjq3r9/comment/lnvzqhr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button 09:39:51 trocador.i2p wrks all day 10:25:40 I think it works in the UK 10:26:15 Perhaps the user is referring to our Fiat gateway, then perhaps there's no option in the UK 10:26:33 Thanks for letting me know 11:29:17 spirobel pls respond https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-community/20240915#c430067 11:55:36 <321bob321:monero.social> Send someone to uk to test 12:42:00 Happy Friday 12:48:13 its monday. 13:02:53 regarding the discrepancy between the kuno funding amount and the CCS: 1. the CCS is more bureaucracy so more overhead needs to be planned 2. During the writing of the CCS proposal I became more clear about the exact scope and saw that it is a bit bigger than what I initially planned. 13:17:25 No way it's monday 13:17:32 Unless you live in space 13:39:12 Spirobel how much of the extra 30xmr is for ccs bureaucracy spirobel so that every proposer can add this to their ccs. We can call this the CCS Added Tax (CAT) 13:39:44 The kuno has raised 1.5 ish xmr so i cant see why youd be charging extra to go through the ccs process 13:46:32 Is the CAT a flat fee or will it increase / decrease depending on the level of bureaucracy? 13:46:57 lets just stay professional. I would rather write code and do something productive. What is the ETA on the merging for this proposal? do you need any addtional information from me ? 13:47:45 I want you to answer my serious questions 13:49:02 Tell the community exactly what your CAT is 13:49:30 image.png 13:49:32 1 week of full time work 13:49:41 barely any commits last week 13:50:02 maybe also because of my fever 13:50:49 but CCS overhead is maybe 1 week at least. because it takes mindshare, gets repetitive and draining after a while 13:50:59 would rather do something productive 13:51:04 but thats okay 13:51:15 do you need anything else? 13:51:25 What is the Kuno added tax (KAT)? 13:51:45 Tell us your real value of the work (minus any added tax) 13:51:49 okay i leave now 13:51:58 i dont have time for this bs 13:52:06 Its not BS 13:52:49 You are the one telling me how much the proposal is worth, i need to know the CAT and KAT 13:53:27 This will set a precedent for all ccs peoposals. Everyone can add 1 week of FULL time work to their ccs? 13:56:06 i dont think your jokes a funny 13:56:07 my ccs price is fair 13:56:09 and i promise a lot 13:56:11 and will work very hard 13:56:13 and have already worked very hard 13:56:15 dont front me like that 13:56:17 its disrespectful 13:56:28 i dont think your joke is a funny one 13:56:29 my ccs price is fair 13:56:31 and i promise a lot 13:56:33 and will work very hard 13:56:35 and have already worked very hard 13:56:37 dont front me like that 13:56:39 its disrespectful 13:56:41 i dont think your joke is funny 13:56:43 my ccs price is fair 13:56:45 and i promise a lot 13:56:47 and will work very hard 13:56:49 and have already worked very hard 13:56:51 dont front me like that 13:56:53 its disrespectful 13:58:47 plowsof: 2. During the writing of the CCS proposal I became more clear about the exact scope and saw that it is a bit bigger than what I initially planned. 14:04:23 Just to make sure I get right what the question is about: The original Kuno fundraiser, here: https://kuno.anne.media/donate/07nm/ (now re-formulated and re-purposed), was for XMR 70, and the new CCS is now for XMR 100, and as it's *in broad strokes* about the same project, the question may arise, why the rise of XMR 30? 14:04:43 During the writing of the CCS proposal I became more clear about the exact scope and saw that it is a bit bigger than what I initially planned. 14:05:26 So my understanding is correct, and that's the important part of your answer to the question. 14:06:15 yes the ccs thing is just a minor detail. nothing to get hung up about. I should have worded it differently my mistake. 14:06:35 the scope is different 14:08:11 Yeah, I could imagine that plowsof asked themselves whether there is a thinly-veiled complaint about the CCS and in extension about their work as CCS coordinator somewhere in there, and maybe overall had a bad day so far, so ... 14:08:28 no i love the ccs 14:08:42 all hail to plowsof 14:08:54 Don't overdo it :) 14:09:02 lets get this merged and me writing code instead of essays. it will be for the good of everyone 14:10:24 It does need some patience at times, with that CCS. 14:13:13 I sent him this information privately before btw 14:13:21 and he didnt respond in this tone 14:14:20 if he voiced this before i am sure I would have reassured him. no problem. didnt mean to criticize. lets just move forward 14:14:26 and respect everyones time 14:14:42 Sounds good to me. 14:23:40 I asked you to put the response in public spriobel , which you didnt, and i asked again today. Thanks 14:25:17 okay great. so now that this is out of the way: what is the ETA? do you need anything else from me? please give a clear answer so I can move forward. 14:30:10 If i know the CAT and KAT i can make a more informed comment later today 14:30:31 CAT = 0 KAT = 0 14:31:00 Im almost remembering a warning i left reg contacting people in private about thumbs up/down 14:31:24 0 now? Is the total still 100? 14:32:13 yes because the scope is different 14:32:59 lets stay professional. I really dont get why suddenly the mood is like this. seems like you are having a bad day 14:33:15 spirobel, you're being unprofessional asking when will it be merged rather than what it will take 14:34:06 maybe I can phrase it differently, but I asked many times if there is anything or any more information that I need to provide or how I can help 14:34:32 so what will it take? 14:34:32 I pinged you once in the meeting, twice * for a public response. (I have receipts) After the 2nd you dm'd me. I said better to put it in public 14:34:50 I pinged a third time (today) to remind you 14:35:15 yes i put it in public now. i didnt seem like it was a big deal and it would feel a bit awake to randomly drop it into the chat 14:35:17 but okay now 14:35:21 its donw 14:35:32 i accept my mistake 14:35:34 lets move on 14:35:45 right right merge and move on merge and move on 14:36:42 Is it still so that proposals are discussed in a community meeting, taking place about every two weeks, and there needs for more info may materialize while discussing, or, people may vote to let it go for merge and funding? 14:36:46 yes i put it in public now. i didnt seem like it was a big deal and it would feel a bit awkward to randomly drop it into the chat 14:38:56 gimme a month to get to a working wasm target from rust. i already have monero-serai bound via ffi, im moving that monero-serai dep to monero-wallet today and am ready for when monero-oxide arrives. 14:39:05 fo free (to the ccs) 14:39:30 Thanks sneurlax, we can move on? 14:39:42 oh nice so i will become homeless thanks sneurlax :) 14:39:52 im merging https://crates.io/crates/monero-rust and moving on 14:39:57 (proof of concept only) 14:40:03 Thanks 14:40:04 Oh, that's brutal today in this channel ... 14:40:24 i would love to work with you spirobel 14:51:58 sneurlax: I have read again through your comments on the CCS proposal. You think that if this project is re-oriented towards maximizing use what is already there, it would look quite a bit differently and also better in your opinion? 14:53:50 I am not sure that would put dear spirobel homeless because of a much smaller CCS. If I understand correctly, the CCS is only about building a first piece of a much bigger puzzle, and the CCS could maybe adjusted to already include some of those pieces? 14:55:03 lets please just move on and merge this. Many people have voiced their support. I have put a lot of work into this and I will put a lot more into it in the future 14:55:10 i dont have more time 14:55:53 i also made sure to leave a thumbs up on plowsof coodinator proposal 14:56:12 because I thought he did a great job at making the ccs process more humane 15:00:05 I certainly see where you come from, and your eagerness of having this moved to funding. But I must say that on the other hand some of sneurlax's arguments, on a very high level of overall Monero project direction, also resonate strongly with me: Our software will be much stronger if we all coordinate regarding architecture and the big pieces that get implemented. 15:00:37 yes i will coordinate and make sure that is the case 15:00:53 i agree with his arguments 15:01:31 You implenting something nice and useful is neverhteless only the first chapter in a possibly very long story, a decade or even longer. There must be other people joining you over time, and other people eager to inherit your project if you cannot continue for whatever reason. If people shy away from doing so, we have a problem, and it could mean the death of your software. 15:02:51 I will make sure to get as much of this merged back into monero-oxide. But to achieve what I want to build I need to have my own repo at first to move fast enough and iterate towards the state where we need to be at 15:03:44 i make sure the api comes from the use case. so it is aligned with what someone would expect that wants to implement a monero payment processor 15:04:22 I see it a bit in Monero wallets: People build wallets left and right, where they could - at least in theory - coordinate and build a few really good wallets. Recently people had to hunt down the source of one such wallet - imagine that! - and now look for somebody to inherit the wallet, which may or may not succeed. https://bounties.monero.social/posts/151/0-210m-mysu-maintenance 15:04:23 -and-further-development 15:05:51 true. I hope this project becomes this focal point. To combine this different usecase and build a commonly useful api 15:06:22 obviously the browser wallet is dear to my heart because I believe it is so essential and missing currently in monero 15:06:37 people keep asking for it and the rest of defi UX all moves there 15:06:55 but I also see that there are other wallets and usecases and friction points 15:07:05 especially for payment processors 15:07:31 I think it's pretty uncontroversial that we finally need a good browser wallet, and one that carries into the future, unlike the MyMonero dinosaur for example 15:07:36 so that is the first thing to address. I wish i could just write the code 15:09:03 okay and to get there we need to have this library. I hope we can move this proposal forward and all the roadblocks are out of the way now. 15:09:26 to get there we need to have this library. I hope we can move this proposal forward and all the roadblocks are out of the way now. 15:16:00 true. I hope this project becomes this focal point. To combine these different usecases and build a commonly useful api 15:37:30 spirobel: your ccs request mentions that you're building a new library to avoid writing hacks using monero-ts, specifically involving the `save()` functionality: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/501#note_26209 15:37:31 monero-ts allows you to export the current wallet data for persistence with `await wallet.getData()`. I was wondering how your library would solve this or how monero-ts could be changed to solve this? 15:43:38 "One limitation I found with the current library is that the data model of the wallet is tightly coupled with the wallet code. There is a save() method on the MoneroWalletFull() class, but the browser application closing is a non predictable event. I worked around that by implementing a system similar to how firmware flashing in microcontrollers works: There are always two slots a 15:43:39 nd in case one got corrupted because the flashing / saving process was interrupted abruptly, the system recovers from the other one. 15:43:41 I don't want to spend my time to maintain hacks like this. Better build a library from the ground up that does not have these limitations. It also benefits other usecases." 15:49:10 once my library is published and funded you can read the source code. Please understand that I need to make a living and I need to get paid for my work. I dont have enough free time to give implementation advice to other peoples work and libraries for free. I am open to consulting work for monero or not monero related projects. 15:49:32 didnt mean to throw shade on your library btw. But i understand you have different goals in mind 15:58:56 😂😂😂 16:00:12 you can save the current wallet state to an overridable filesystem, or export current wallet state, there are no other theoretical options unless I'm missing something, so I was puzzled by this, but maybe you intend to simply have the library handle the redundancy in the background 16:13:17 Publish what you said about it being a lengthier, harder project when crafting the proposal description, in the description, ya doofus. That's making it public, not saying it here... 16:13:39 Here comes more screeching. Watch. 16:13:41 okay i am out now 16:22:12 Together we can accomplish anything for monero. Someone wiae once said table cant stand with three legs 16:22:29 Together we can accomplish anything for monero. Someone wise once said table cant stand with three legs 16:23:40 Every one has different skills that together can make monero the bees knees, the cat pajamas 16:24:26 yeah I didn't mean to discourage, only to ask because I wanted to be sure you were aware of that, but I'm sure there's room for improvement, and more options to build applications can't hurt 16:25:39 Ive never seen a cat in pajamas 16:32:22 What's the current pruned node size? 16:35:58 What's the current pruned Blockchain size? 16:43:00 Rust will soon be integrated into monero-ts, no? MrCyjaneK and Im_Beast have been doing work integrating monero's C++ source into monero-ts last I saw, and if that's maintaned through FCMPs then Rust will end up being used by monero-ts via the official C++ imo. putting in conscious effort to make new Rust tooling specifically compatible with monero-ts is a good goal because mone 16:43:01 ro-ts offers an alternative path to a monero wasm target. I would suggest that new rust tooling integrates into monero-ts if only to compare the outputs of a wasm monero from monero-ts to the outputs of a wasm monero from some new crate 16:43:25 this is free implementation advice 16:45:41 maintained* :P 16:48:10 there's no effort going into integrating rust with monero-ts atm to my knowledge, unless it's inherited up from the monero-project C++ codebase 16:48:14 maybe monero-rs though 16:48:39 yeah, i meant that monero's c++ source is getting rust via ffi for fcmps 16:48:56 init00x: About 80GB 16:49:18 now that monero's c++ is effectively "in" monero-ts (not mainlined yet as far as I can tell, like I mentioned, just via MrCyjaneK's monero_c and Im_Beast's work integrating it into monero-ts) i'm just forecasting that rust will end up in moonero-ts just via monero itself--eventually 16:49:29 that would be cool, the comit folks were interested in rust ffi 16:50:38 to be fair to spirobel, he's been very clear for years that the monero c++ is the source of many issues and he specifically wants a fresh impl. thati agree that's a good goal for many reasons 16:50:57 so me offering an example of monero c++ solving some issue is not a really valid response to the conversation 16:51:17 to be fair to spirobel, he's been very clear for years that the monero c++ is the source of many issues and he specifically wants a fresh impl. i agree that's a good goal for many reasons 16:53:49 ~80gb 16:54:41 im looking at and plugging https://github.com/Im-Beast/monero-tui again 16:56:14 perhaps i misunderstand because i'm not immersed in typescript, deno, etc., daily anymore, but isn't this 80% of the work of monero-project/monero in wasm? will need to research more. but i was of the impression that monero-ts is the leading option to get us into wasm--and without reviewing and auditing fresh rust, just the official monero repo. 16:57:21 (while my body yearns for fresh rust) 16:58:03 perhaps i misunderstand because i'm not immersed in typescript, deno, etc., daily anymore, but isn't this 80% of the work of monero-project/monero in wasm? will need to research more. but i was of the impression that monero-ts is the leading option to get us into wasm--and without reviewing and auditing fresh rust, just the official monero repo (well, and monero-ts ... and monero_c ... and etc). 17:27:24 yes I am aware of that. i currently use the getData function inside of the saving function to retrieve the wallet data. I agree that there is room for improvement and that more options are better 17:28:37 btw i just updated my references to include direct links to my months of unpaid open source work after rottenwheel left his nasty comments and downvotes 17:29:33 i hope someone can see the amount of work that I already put into this and that I put into monero in general 17:30:31 I hope you can encourage me and we can move forward with this so I can finally continue working on my vision of the privacy respecting browser wallet for monero 20:55:44 i want to know what ofrnxmr thinks of the CAT 20:56:49 Why dragging me into this CAT vs KAT fight 20:57:01 cause you have a good finger 20:57:07 It's been places 20:57:31 On the pulse or up my 20:57:40 it probes well 20:57:58 I was going to say nose 21:03:52 <321bob321:monero.social> Nioc is the cat expert 21:04:58 The work has been yrs in the making,i dont think scope magically changed. I think the price was bumped out of spite for ccs. Years ago spiro opened a cca for 5k total that was rejected. The browser wallet idea has been a thing since before that 21:05:54 70xmr might have been a discount to try to save his pride by not coming back to ccs 21:06:28 Coming back to ccs is something that was actively avoided for 2yrs 21:08:01 So i think fair price is 70xmr.(based on self prescribed prices, not technical review). A 42% increase because of swallowed pride isn't our problem. 21:08:53 2 months at 70xmr is the same as 105xmr/3months similar rates to monero core devs 21:10:02 But the "i wont help anyone until im paid to" is discouraging. Sounds like if we dont roll this ccs that we may be left with half finished work and may have a hostile path forward 21:11:33 If rates were the same as kuno, i think it would have a smooth path to merge. We've been waiting for spiro to come ccs for his browser wallet for 2yrs. The 42% increase in the last 2 months after 24 months waiting is a bit not-cool 21:12:06 <321bob321:monero.social> The Bourne Ultimatum 21:12:29 Midipoet, how did i do? 21:13:03 Oh, note: the rejected ccs was unrelated to any technical work 21:13:28 It was evangelist ccs 21:16:46 And the "i wont help woodser til im paid to", well woodser has never opened a ccs for monero-ts. Not very community spirited to refuse to share your knowledge due to feat of competition 21:17:24 Which begs the question of licenses for work already done that will be billed for, and work that will be prod 21:17:25 duced 21:17:54 Technically, even now, during idea stage, the work needs to be licensed permissively 21:24:16 kewbit was happily merged and ccs funded with the jetfund. Didnt have to raise a single piconero. His work was 3/4 completed while bounty hunting before coming to ccs. 21:24:17 Proposers spirit matters a lot here imho. We dont just yolo merge external contractors who don't care for monero. Its not "just another job". 21:24:19 - clarify license 21:24:21 - revert price 21:24:23 - happily contribute b4 merge (as opposed to refusing to share knowledge) 21:24:25 these 3 things would likely gave removed all of the uncertainty and made for an easy/fast merge for something we've known about for yrs 21:26:15 <321bob321:monero.social> Sounds like holding hostage 21:27:48 👍 21:50:17 FYI, I'm hoping to open a CCS auditing monero-serai within a week. I'm unsure if that causes any impact to the above discussion which I wasn't present for. 21:51:28 I don't know. The context is appreciated, and well summarised (from what I understand of it). but, in reality, what's a 42% increase between friends? I agree with Spirobel that there is overhead attributed to the CCS process, mainly as there are so many probes that enjoy orifices. We want (it seems) a web wallet (even if initial progress towards) more than we need 70 XMR. 21:52:35 kayabanerve: surely be to fuck you are too busy with FCMPs to open another CCS? Or do you just not sleep? 21:54:55 I wouldn't be working? 21:54:58 I'd be paying off the people working 21:55:09 It's to hire auditors, not to be the auditor 21:57:24 Midipoet, the overhead from ccs = doing less legwork to get funded? The kuno didnt do well. 21:57:27 I already did all the work of building it all in Rust. 21:57:59 Id argue ccs is being chosen right now because kuno was the hard path 21:58:16 Kaya. Are you sure you dont want to audit your own work /s 21:58:40 kayabanerve: ah, fair. Understood. 21:59:27