01:57:02 <m-relay> <s​nowman:tetaneutral.net> he's a traitor
02:47:23 <m-relay> <d​arkhappyman:monero.social> Hello everybody, I am a bit programmer I want to help where can I start
05:58:30 <geonic> https://bounties.monero.social/
08:52:31 <plowsof> so a new version of Monerujo released with SideKick https://www.reddit.com/r/Monerujo/comments/1fo1iyx/soon_is_now_sidekick_is_officially_out_in_the/ 
08:52:42 <plowsof> some of our community members have already left some nice reviews  
08:53:13 <plowsof> " my PR for Monerujo has been waiting for 5 months and they released a new version without looking any of the open PRs. Fucking hilarious." - detherminal 
08:54:22 <plowsof> 5/5! another review from twiddle "2 open PRs 8 months old" A* 
08:55:45 <plowsof> actual link here: https://sidekick.monerujo.app/
09:01:07 <ofrnxmr> +1 lol, monerujo is the worst maintained wallet. Been like this for ~2hrs
09:01:12 <ofrnxmr> Yrs*
09:35:22 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> sidekick demo at monerokon was cool
09:41:07 <plowsof> via bluetooth OR a standardised UR / QR thingy. its 2024 now
09:42:21 <plowsof> step one for your offline signing device: turn on bluetooth 
09:42:40 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> bluetooth works way easier than the qr codes
09:42:54 <plowsof> several years ago that was a valid concern
09:43:12 <plowsof> but offline signers via QR exist now 
09:43:21 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> id argue sidekick is great for a wallet you use often
09:43:27 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> QR signing is annoying af
09:44:42 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> id use sidekick more like a "yubikey for your wallet"
09:45:00 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> instead of your hodl wallet
09:49:51 <plowsof> for a wallet you use often, id want auto send without conf for amounts less than a certain fiat equiv. e.g. 50 eur via NFC, not too concerned with security there
09:52:41 <m-relay> <3​21bob321:monero.social> Encrypted BLE?
09:53:49 <plowsof> maybe you just need a wallet to support yubikey if you want htat
09:55:57 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> plow thats not how it works
09:56:23 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> either the seed is in a place where it can be easily compromised or not, a yubikey wont do anything
09:57:18 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> the sidekick works very smoothly, not like the qr codes where you have to go back and forth multiple times
09:57:59 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> so it really is a good way to massively enhance wallet security even if it is not really following the definition of airgap
10:01:11 <plowsof> a security feature added to a badly maintained wallet mind 
10:02:10 <plowsof> ill stick with standardised file transferals that have more chance of future support (already in feather and anonero and co)  
10:05:04 <plowsof> bluetooth is available on some off the shelf HWW so it clearly has a usecase and is convenient. I'd just advise people to put their funds into a more actively maintained wallet above all
10:16:07 <m-relay> <d​etherminal:monero.social> https://saketo.io :)
10:19:43 <ofrnxmr> feather, anonero, xmruw, and previewed on cake the other day
10:20:03 <ofrnxmr> none of which use bluetooth 
10:20:08 <ofrnxmr> also xmrsigner
10:21:03 <plowsof> someone zoomed in on cakes tweet showing the phone wasnt offline :P
10:21:30 <ofrnxmr> 😆
10:21:51 <plowsof> https://xcancel.com/vikrantnyc/status/1837089979060641813#m
10:21:58 <plowsof> so not previewed yet!
10:23:14 <ofrnxmr> He worded carefully, said "airgapped" instead of "offline" 💅
10:23:39 <plowsof> s/fully/partially 
10:24:15 <plowsof> nice that its coming though 
10:27:32 <m-relay> <3​21bob321:monero.social> BLE wallet in a farady cage
10:36:11 <ofrnxmr> Would be nice if monerujo did basic maintenance tho
10:36:33 <m-relay> <3​21bob321:monero.social> Setup dependabot
10:36:37 <ofrnxmr> Sidekick is nice and all but still have issues and prs open for yrs
10:39:52 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> plow, sidekick is actually using the ledger bluetooth signing library if i remember right
10:47:28 <plowsof> hopefully there are no bugs in ledgers implementation. they have been known to leak spend keys without interaction from the user after plugging in the usb cable https://app.opencve.io/cve/?&vendor=ledger&product=monero 
10:47:51 <plowsof> monerobull does monerujo support connecting to ledger devices via bluetooth?
10:50:51 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> idk
10:51:10 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> it should since sidekick is basically the same thing
14:40:36 <m-relay> <a​nhdres:matrix.org> I'll ping m2049r: so he can address any doubts about it
15:13:01 <m-relay> <p​reland:monero.social> Bluetooth cold wallet is wild
15:43:34 <m-relay> <j​0j0xmr:monero.social> QR codes are super quick, especially if you actually use your cold storage wallet with synced key images.
15:44:05 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> still more back and forth
15:44:19 <m-relay> <j​0j0xmr:monero.social> Nero/Feather combo is excellent, the longest thing sometimes is waiting for building the tx over Tor.
15:45:02 <m-relay> <j​0j0xmr:monero.social> Its 2 simple scans, probably same time as having to setup BT connection to both phones.
15:45:29 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> hm, maybe
15:45:55 <m-relay> <j​0j0xmr:monero.social> Would be interesting to see a video comparison of the full process using both methods.
15:46:42 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> ive seen both and sidekick was very close to just sending a tx without the key being separated from the wallet
15:47:32 <m-relay> <j​0j0xmr:monero.social> Except for the BT pairing and setup.
15:47:45 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> dont get me wrong, qr code is awesome and actually airgapped
15:47:53 <m-relay> <j​0j0xmr:monero.social> I haven't check out Sidekick as I don't have an extra offline Android, I use Feather for cold storage.
15:48:22 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> my rational is that you connect that and then can make transactions all day with the thing just laying on your desk
15:48:34 <m-relay> <j​0j0xmr:monero.social> And tobtoht just said they won't add Sidekick support to Feather so I'll never really get to test.
15:48:51 <m-relay> <j​0j0xmr:monero.social> Sounds like use case for a hot wallet to me.
15:49:01 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> well yeah
15:49:15 <m-relay> <j​0j0xmr:monero.social> You'd keep the BT connection open all day just sitting there?
15:49:25 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> sidekick perfectly fits in the middle of hotwallet and airgapped in terms of security/usability
15:49:58 <m-relay> <j​0j0xmr:monero.social> Sure, I just didn't know such a middle ground existed.
15:50:07 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> it drastically improves security vs a regular hotwallet but is not as secure as real airgapped
15:50:25 <m-relay> <j​0j0xmr:monero.social> Options are great thought, I'll be interested to see what other wallets add support.
15:50:36 <m-relay> <j​0j0xmr:monero.social> Options are great though, I'll be interested to see what other wallets add support.
15:50:39 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> also, it is a joy to look at lmao
15:50:48 <m-relay> <m​onerobull:matrix.org> go little computer, build my transaction :)
16:50:15 <m-relay> <d​iego:cypherstack.com> Test?
18:08:04 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> plowsof: CCS question for you or anyone qualified to answer.
18:08:23 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Can the CCS host a contest? Well-defined challenge criteria with prize money?
18:09:00 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> It's not a Q on the CCS rules, it's a Q on the willingness of core, I just honestly don't know who to ping to move this discussion forward.
18:10:19 <geonic> you can raise funds through a CCS and put the proceeds in a bounty
18:10:49 <geonic> seems like the most straightforward way to do it
18:11:57 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> geonic: Who admins the bounty?
18:12:17 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> I can't legally do this unless we add a lot of paperwork to it. I also am not willing to be so liable.
18:12:57 <geonic> sgp I think. plowsof can answer that
18:13:03 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> *I may be able to legally do it, but I'd add my legal costs to the CCS and would need a fallback if no, it's not feasible.
18:13:22 <geonic> I don’t see how/where you’d become liable?
18:13:32 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> CCS raising for a bounty not by core is fine with me though.
18:14:42 <geonic> you don’t even need to touch the money. have the ccs be paid out to the bounty deposit address
18:15:09 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> If I do a CCS, collect the money, and admin a bounty myself.
18:15:43 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> ... K, I see the issue.
18:15:45 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> I'm asking how would the inevitable bounty be run. You're saying THE bounty, a specific bounty in a specific place.
18:16:08 <geonic> https://bounties.monero.social/
18:16:13 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Would you please specify what bounty platform you're proposing?
18:16:16 <geonic> I was referring to this
18:16:19 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Thank you
18:19:25 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> That works IMO. Some question on if its optimal but it works. The CCS would need to be willing to 0-milestone payout or payout upon contest completion (which means the CCS should just pay the winner directly?).
18:19:35 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> SGP is not an admin, present nor past
18:32:32 <plowsof> at one point seth was an admin on the bounties site, to clear that up 
18:34:02 <ofrnxmr> Ccs doesnt handle bounties wallet, separate platforms
18:34:39 <ofrnxmr> Bounty lets someone put it in progress and pays upon conpletion
18:37:46 <plowsof> the bounty would fall out of scope if it has a specific funding target hmm but there are no ccs rules as we've established time and time again. anything is possible kayabanerve 
18:38:59 <ofrnxmr> bounty can have a funding minimum target 
18:39:18 <plowsof> if people agree/disagree that kayabanerve can raise funds for a specific task that he will see is completed correctly and decide who the winner is  then so be it 
18:39:25 <ofrnxmr> doesnt stop someone from starting the work for less $
18:41:48 <plowsof> https://github.com/t-900-a/fider-monero-bot/blob/master/policy/scope.md#bounty-scope-1 
18:42:58 <plowsof> a minimum or maximum would fall under a "funding threshold" , i mean a bounty can be scoped out with 'person X decides who the winner is' which is acceptable as the bounty is presumably falls under kayaba's expertise area? 
18:43:33 <plowsof> shared and hopefully obtains a substantial amount of funding to attract the right person to complete it 
18:59:57 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Is the vibe it'd be better to CCS it entirely, or 0-milestone a CCS to the bounties platform plowsof
19:00:18 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Because it sounds like CCS can do it all
19:00:31 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> And it sounds like the bounties platform introduces its own paperwork for unclear benefit
19:03:01 <plowsof> lets see what the contest is for, could clear things up 
19:03:49 <m-relay> <r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> https://github.com/WinampDesktop/winamp
19:06:42 <m-relay> <p​lowsof:matrix.org> is it to add winamp into wowlet?
19:11:15 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> plowsof: it'd be for more performant implementations of some of the mathematics underlying the FCMP++ code if done. Implementations would be subject to a rule set, and if they passed, numerically evaluated for performance. I haven't done a full specification. There is a reference implementation present (my own work). My own CCS notes my implementation of Helios/Selene are not expe<clipped message>
19:11:17 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> cted to be production-grade performant (though they ended up acceptable in prod) so it isn't outsourcing my work in that regard.
19:13:28 <plowsof> research related bounties are banned btw so looks like ccs is your only option :(((
19:15:43 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> It is for numerically-evaluated actually-implemented libraries
19:15:51 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Literally a drag race of the submissions
19:15:53 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Research related bounties  are banned due to scams, no?
19:16:05 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> I think we can make exceptions whenever we feel like it
19:16:42 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> I understand if:
19:16:43 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> $ to the first lib earning 500 points is dev
19:16:45 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> $ to the best lib is research
19:16:47 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> though
19:16:53 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> There's not an explicit evaluation target given.
19:16:59 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Bounties is a competition based
19:17:24 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ccs gemerally has someone to do the work before its opened
19:18:05 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Unless its just raising funds to allocate for future essential work, in which case we also have generalfund
19:18:29 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Like the ccs for bp++ peer review
19:19:48 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/bulletproofs-pp-peer
19:20:06 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/bulletproofs-pp-peer-review.html
19:21:12 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> It sounds like I need to draft a spec, I need to decide if it's a good idea, the academia on divisors needs to be concrete so this isn't wasted effort, and then I need to open a CCS. The CCS will be accepted, or I need to edit it so that it immediately funds a bounty on bounties.monero.social (with permission from whoever is the admin of that). Then that will be accepted or it won<clipped message>
19:21:13 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> 't but that is how it is.
19:21:15 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> iirc, this did not select cypherstack when it was first moved to funding
19:21:24 <plowsof> depends on the scope really, if the task can be completed in only one way then it would be fine. research bounties where banned after someone submitted useless garbage that just so happened to meet the loose requirements 
19:22:14 <plowsof> someone overseeing that would refuse payout and seek someone to do it 'correctly'
19:22:44 <m-relay> <s​yntheticbird:monero.social> pov: me requesting 5 xmr to make preliminary research on rewriting monerod in rust. (I was really going to put works on it but yeah the description is vague.)
19:23:11 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> You cant"fund" a bounty, because bounties have to upper limit
19:23:28 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> No* upper
19:24:36 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> id go like this 
19:24:37 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> 1. Open bounty with properly defined scope THEN
19:24:39 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> 2. Open ccs to raise funds to donate to the bounty
19:25:17 <plowsof> requiring 2 people to send funds rather than 1, nightmare scenario 
19:25:30 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> 2 seems redundant, as users can just donate directly to the bounty
19:26:24 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> And the bounty and ccs scope would have to be identical
19:27:08 <plowsof> would fall under "Requesting additional funding for an existing CCS that has not been completed" 
19:28:28 <plowsof> im sure people can make an exception for FCMP++ , and the general fund would contribute as its project critical / arriving in the near future 
19:35:45 <plowsof> oh someone on reddit reporting a vague haveno error, and a bsx 'failed install gpg' error on windows https://reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1fohd53/i_love_monero_but/
19:36:04 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> I have no interest in organizing such a bounty without a proper prize pool and would only open the bounty with a guaranteed floor, even if technically people can throw in more.
19:36:19 <plowsof> haveno issue required an update, not sure about the bsx issue
19:36:53 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> plowsof: I prior stated the tasks discussed are out-of-scope to my CCS. Application of that rule would prevent anyone from doing anything re: FCMP++ via the CCS.
19:37:23 <plowsof> the additional funding for existing ccs is a 'bounty' site rule, not ccs, sorry for confusion
19:37:41 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Ah, sorry.
19:38:55 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> I wouldn't care/request additional 'bounty' contributions FWIW. There just has to be some org administrating payout of the contest, if done. If that's the CCS, great, direct and simple. If they'll only let me fund raise for a contest administered elsewhere, I just need a viable third-party (the already stated candidate being the bounty site).
19:44:03 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> @plowsof bsx user hasnt come to any support channels 🤷‍♂️
19:44:34 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Windows install is recommended to use WSL
19:45:12 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ill get CG to respond, since my reddit is long since banned
19:45:24 <plowsof> the term "Choco" is not recognised 🍫
19:45:59 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> yeah, theyre using the Windows GUI installer
19:46:16 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> they need to use bash or docker install within WSL
19:47:09 <plowsof> ok thanks, just sharing here as i noticed it. not the best way to report problems clearly 
19:47:10 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> The windows bugs are due to it building from source using windows, which doesn't always play nice. The installers are all being redone, but they should use WSL with docker or bash installer
19:48:05 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> thank you ser. I love when pple complain on twitter but dont open issues on repo, join the tg, simplex, matrix etc channels
19:48:15 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> I mean, reddit*
19:48:24 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Twitter is fine. They dont block me for using tor
19:51:12 <plowsof> kayabanerve we'll figure it out, get the scope out there for people to see 
19:54:18 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> Isn't this a good job for the Core general fund? If no one submits a better implementation, then funds don't move anywhere. I assume that there is some doubt that a better implementation can be written and/or that the "right" coders would see and be interested in the bounty.
19:54:35 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> Just like the HackerOne bounties.
19:59:32 <ofrnxmr> Yes, i said we have generalfund for this too
20:00:27 <ofrnxmr> (i'm agreeing, not making matter of fact statements)
20:04:23 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> Noob question: Can FCMP++ use something like BLAS? I guess auditing a BLAS implementation for cryptographic soundness is not feasible. But...what if?
20:57:17 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> I'm fine having the contest yield unused funds to the general fund. I don't want to expect such a burden from core (not doing a CCS yet using the GF)
20:57:42 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> BLAS, Rucknium: ?
21:21:13 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> I am going to keep the acronym's meaning a secret so I can submit it for the bounty :P
21:21:19 <m-relay> <r​ucknium:monero.social> kayabanerve: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Linear_Algebra_Subprograms
21:22:48 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> > BLAS implementations will take advantage of special floating point hardware such as vector registers or SIMD instructions.
21:23:39 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> So the contest, if I successfully organized one, would be for platform-independent single-threaded performance. Platform independence means SIMD extensions presumably won't be available.
21:25:09 <m-relay> <k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> (The minimal reference platform would have to have SIMD and the SIMD code would need to be portable)
23:07:17 <m-relay> <3​21bob321:monero.social> Unused funds from ccs should go back to ccs and not the hodl fund.
23:12:38 <ofrnxmr> Right