00:05:01 Session messenger used crypto libs that didnt have source available, iirc 00:15:31 <321bob321:monero.social> They are pos now? 00:16:33 https://caliban.org/wp/2024/08/session-instant-messenger-is-fraught-with-serious-problems/ 00:18:53 Always have been 00:25:02 CCS Coordinator is now fully funded! https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/ccs-coordinator-5-plowsof.html @luigi1111 02:26:12 <321bob321:monero.social> Back to work plowsof 02:36:31 that video really doesn’t want to be funded 😅 02:37:21 do we need to add deadlines for funding 02:37:34 or expiration dates 03:05:45 is there any room (matrix/irc optional) for rust related to monero that’s not cuprate? 03:17:32 Surprises me he's not whining about GF sending shekels to proposals needing funding. 03:17:37 He's losing his edge! 03:24:16 rotten , aren't you using haveno ? 03:29:26 Nope, not yet at least. Haven't had a need to. 03:29:56 I rather build my own p2p networks outside of the already established p2p networks... 03:31:16 sure you are free to build a p2p network ! 03:31:27 Count me in 03:31:33 but usually escrows are a wise option 03:35:41 100%. Trust me, I already lost 5k to a scammer in the past. 03:35:47 https://kuno.anne.media/fundraiser/recb/ 03:36:02 Is USD your fiat currency? 🤔 03:36:33 Nope 03:37:21 what do i trust you with ? 03:38:04 you need to trust people on twitter 03:39:16 Yeah, but generally they are the ones who send fiat first, not me. It helps in my case that I have been around for years, got a CCS-funded newsletter... Would be stupid of me to run off with someone's loot. 03:39:17 i mean hopefully you got an experience from the scam 03:39:47 i mean hopefully you got an experience from the earlier scam 03:44:20 does zelle have any chargeback system 03:52:28 I sent XMR first in that particular deal. 03:52:38 No chargebacks in monono. 03:52:54 Social engineering was involved... 03:54:38 yeah , i meant receiving fiat thru zelle 03:55:03 Why would anyone want to send money back though? 03:55:16 Tainted XMR? 03:55:17 i remember local monero used to have warning labels about known scams 03:58:39 i mean the buyer creating a chargeback after you send them xmr 04:22:06 Gotcha, no, Zelle payments are rarely refunded, as far as I know. 04:33:33 hey rottenwheel, I wanted to say thank you for sharing, but I was not really able that day. I very appreciate it! 04:39:00 vthor_ sharing? I thought it was you who shared? Either way, no worries; any time! 04:39:44 :D 10:28:41 sneurlax as notified in cuprate, wish granted: #monero-rust:monero.social (Logo to be changed, moderators to be found? monerobull, plowsof?) 10:29:48 <321bob321:monero.social> Yest 12:39:15 Hahaha, I knew someone would invite me back 13:11:01 Unfortunately... 13:34:49 midi asking for jberman rates is pure comedy 13:35:51 332xmr for 480hrs of blog posts on privacy written in google docs. Is this satire? 13:37:47 Midi pretending to be a researcher is some of the worst acting i've ever seen 13:43:05 199k/yr for 2 blog posts is absolute comedy 13:43:50 "Depending on how much work is required to resubmit, I will either open another CCS for the work required, or do the work for free (probably the latter). Alternative options are to choose less respected journals (easier acceptance), or even a conference venue (to ensure publication and exposure)." Tldr: this trash will be rejected, so ill just get 13:43:50 some paid vacation to go talk about it at monerokon 13:44:19 50k for 3 months of works is berman/kaya rates. Hilarious. 13:52:24 I think this is what they mean when they say "dont quit your day job" 13:52:37 Not blog posts 13:59:03 d1 and 2 ate blog posts 13:59:26 M1: 20% paid after delivery of D1 [end of month 2] (~66 XMR) 13:59:26 M2: 20% paid after deliver of D2 [end of month 4] (~66 XMR) 13:59:36 M0: 10% upfront payment of total cost (~33 XMR) 13:59:48 D1: a blog posts (easily shareable across social media, reddit, etc) of about 1000 words. The topic will be the current state of cryptocurrency Regulation in Europe, with specific relation to Monero and other privacy coins (delivered end of month 2). 14:00:14 D2: a blog post (easily shareable across social media, reddit, etc) of about 1000 words. The topic will be the application (or not) of MiCAR (Market in Crypto-Assets Regulation) to Monero and Haveno. 14:02:02 D3 is essential a 5-10k word newsletter on recent events "Monero delistings. 14:02:02 Litigations/criminal charges against Tornado Mixer, Bitcoin Fog, Samurai Wallet, etc. 14:02:02 Attempts at compliance from certain projects (e.g., ZCash, Firo) and the impact of that on whether they are ‘fully decentralised’ (see MiCAR Recital 22) or not. 14:02:02 Foresight analysis concept of decentralisation in the ecosystem and potential application of relevant or evolving legislation." 14:06:11 I somehow miss a question and corresponding answer there: "What will the benefits for Monero and its community of users?" Such a paper is nice, and maybe it costs that much to get a high-quality paper written by somebody qualified, but ... but ... what will we do with it then? 14:07:51 Maybe I don't fully understand what the paper will deliver under this: "Foresight analysis concept of decentralisation in the ecosystem and potential application of relevant or evolving legislation" 14:08:20 i think the short answer is "nothing" 14:08:37 Is this a complicated way of saying "I try to find out what we can do"? 14:09:07 Look at history - what has MPWG accomplished thus far? aside from paid monerokon vacations 14:09:40 Afaik it doesn't propose a solution but just try to *formalize* or at least *develop* the issue of regulatory pression. The only usefulness I see with such paper is for influence purpose. Having to more informations to support monero arguments for privacy. 14:10:26 Even tho I see it being useful in the long-term to have a well written resource about that issue. The price is too much of a barrier. 14:10:39 again imo 14:10:42 imo 14:11:54 Yeah, and things do not stand still. Legislation, law enforcement, etc., everything is moving and shifting. 1 year later a paper update, for USD 20000? 14:12:36 ..+1. The topics are a catch all for tornadocash and other things unrelated to monero (private by default). This is just intended to gather support from people who think this will have any teeth in the figh against europe delistings. We'd have a better time sending 200k to politicians to lobby lol 14:13:50 Good idea. We pay a half-time Monero lobbyist. For half a year. And then we look at the results to decide whether to prolong. 14:14:11 I swear 200k for Monero marketing IRL would be absolutely incredible 14:30:27 The importance of paying for Free Software. https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/993073/397cb7071d5a3642/ 14:35:49 @seen Perkins&Cole 14:51:29 Pay for some YouTube endorsements 14:57:26 Cake paid for twitter ads and nobody has ever seen one 15:04:31 Like you have to know someone famous or with a large following not just pay for the platform ads, needs and actual endorsement 15:06:29 rbrunner7: your question "What will the benefits for Monero and its community of users?" is fair. What good is any academic policy/legal research on Monero worth? What is any academic research worth to the community? Essentially, all it does is add to an existing body of knowledge on a subject, from which other researchers/people can learn from. Who those people are and what they're researching is a complete unknown. 15:06:29 For example, the prior research i did on Monero had been cited by all manner of papers, on cryptocurrency, governance, decentralisation, social policy, CBDCs, etc. Is each of those citations worth anything? Perhaps not. If i don't do the research i propose, it might never get done. Admittedly, on the other hand, someone might decide to do it themselves, or someone somewhere is maybe already starting to do it. There have 15:06:29 certainly been some recent related works that i have seen. We could wait and see, or just do the research. 15:08:57 I follow almost every government RSS feeds and look for these keywords CBDC, Monero etc 15:10:20 Central bank digital currencies are being feeded out quite a lot in government publications but not really to the general public it seems yet 15:15:25 syntheticbird: out of interest, what do you think is a fair/reasonable price for the paper? 15:16:13 2/3 of the actual price. 15:22:24 So you think i should ask a rate of €50 an hour, or do you think it should take 2/3 of the time? 15:24:19 €50 an hour. I don't care about time since its supposed be an academic paper I prefer it to complete/correct than made in a hurry (relative to the huge scope of topics you're trying to address). I think above 50€/hour is not reasonable. 15:30:35 So basically the skills required to do the paper (and cover the huge scope of topics) are similar/comparable to the other CCS's at that, or similar, rates? 15:58:16 I personally think some CCS don't deserve a 50€/hour rate but for me yes I think it does. But I'm waiting for arguments to tell me I'm wrong and that I probably underestimate the skills required for this to work. 16:06:15 $25usd/hr 16:07:19 Afaik, midi isnt a lawyer and doesnt know how to use tor. Uaes google docs for collab in monero-policy. I dont think midi is knowledgeable on privacy tools at all 16:08:29 and id still say 40-50% of the ccs is a complete waste (m0 m1 m2) 16:08:46 Up front, blog 1, blog 2 16:09:38 And syntheticbird, the rate is stated at 75, but is calculated to 90eur 16:10:32 also xmr is rated at 141 usd. The whole ccs reeks of waste 16:12:27 Jberman 317 for 480hrs. Midi 332 for 480hrs. If were paying per word thats $4 per word lol 16:13:40 and thats assuming 12k words.. if we go on the low endthats $7 per word 16:15:09 I think $25usd/hr is overly generous 16:18:59 That makes for 80xmr at $1/word. I'd still go for 0xmr and prefer a lobbying ccs over adding gibberish blog posts and "academic" papers from someone who doesnt know how to use any privacy tools 16:19:00 mhm. I think midi will do extensive research and think before writing, so you can't just resume that to *4$ per word*. There is a real work behind. Tho yeah current stated price is... astounishing. Also I don't particularly judge on its technical capabilities, stated background maybe but yeah idc if he uses google docs and not cryptopad. Regarding up front he has been transparent that he just quit his job. So I won't include it in the waste, just something to take in consideration if we accept or not. 16:19:36 he didnt quit yet, he said he will quiy 16:19:48 I think he should _not_ quit his dayjob 16:19:59 > Because I am quitting my day job – I need some certainty on the first month (basically to be able to pay my mortgage). 16:20:25 I don't understand any conditional. 16:20:27 The first 4 months are blog posts 16:20:55 2x 100 word blog posts, for 40% of the value 16:21:03 1000* 16:21:19 syntheticbird: i also agree that general wage inflation in the CCS process is a problem, but this is where we are, i am afraid. In terms of justification for my own rate, two of my recent publications (with a third forthcoming) have day rates of anywhere between €750 to €1500. You can argue that's commercially orientated research, capitalism gone mad, includes commercial overheads, etc. all that is true, but 16:21:19 somewhere in those day rates is the cost of high quality bespoke research. Alternatively, i suppose we could put a CCS for a post-doc to do the research. Might be a lot cheaper, but then we wouldn't be sure of who we get, and what the standard of the paper would be. We might also need someone to oversee their work as well, but maybe MRL could do that? 16:22:35 Cypherstack just put out a paper on monero 16:23:01 lets compare rates /s 16:23:44 https://github.com/cypherstack/pup-monero-analysis/releases/tag/final 16:25:57 23 page, likely ~5000 words 16:26:03 midipoet. I'm not an ideologist so I don't care about the back sentiment of such paper. I also make distinction between MRL and your proposed work. You do not propose any scientific or mathematics work but a study that relate more of social aspect. So I don't it make sense for MRL to review your work (or even compare it to MRL like ofrnxmr is doing). Also, higher-rate do not parti cularly buy you any credibility, it just raise our expectations. And for me, I don't see any reasonable expectation increase between a 50€ rate and 90€ rate. 16:27:11 Cypherstacks paper isnt mrl, its just something cypherstack and sarang did on their own time 16:28:46 ofrnxmr It is a scientific study that was designed and aimed to be shared with the Monero Research Lab. I don't feel its particularly wrong to make a distinction here if we talk solely about the type of work being done 16:29:04 ofrnxmr It is a scientific study that was designed and aimed to be shared with the Monero Research Lab. I don't feel its particularly wrong to NOT make a distinction here if we talk solely about the type of work being done 16:29:18 sorry for the spam IRC users 16:31:46 My point isn't about the genre of work, but about the quality / knowledge, length and the rates that the authors are typically paid. imo, cypherstacks paper is worth more, word for word and knowledge required, (as well as focused on XMR and not fiat, transparent coins, washing dirty coins etc )than anything this ccs hopes to put out 16:33:18 In 2022, binance blocked litecoin mweb deposits while still allowing xmr deposits. Delistings aren't a monero problem 16:34:12 Europe isnt a monero problem. Kraken isnt a monero problem. Tornadocash is definitely and other methods of erasing history (opt-in privacy) isnt a monero problem 16:40:11 This is honestly the most shocking part tbh. Even our cryptographers have relatively poor job security, and everyone agrees that they are absolute essential. Even if you manage to push this one CCS through, I wouldnt be betting on archiving that a second time 6 months down the line. Dont put your livelihood at risk man 16:45:53 syntheticbird: if there is no difference between €50 and €90, then why are we discussing the money aspect (semi-serious question)? In reality though, if your argument is that it's not in the realm of MRL as it's not computer science/mathematics but social science, then fair enough. I can't argue against that. My understanding of MRL is that it was open to all research topics and domains, and that has been 16:45:53 consistent with my dealings with them as well. 16:48:47 ct: for the record, my plan isn't to hope for a continual CCS job. I am quitting my job to give me the time to do this research. More than likely, while I do the research, i will also be looking for a new job (during the other 20 hours). I will certainly be looking from month 5 onwards. I am relatively confident i can get a job, when i will need one. The reason for quitting my job for this, is that I can't do my current 16:48:47 job and the CCS. That is impossible, so one has to give. 16:49:00 midipoet: I was talking about expectations. I'm just saying above 50€/hr I don't see what you can provide in value that is worth the increase. I maybe missing something. Also that's a fair point. I don't know exactly what is the main scope of MRL and in which domain they operate, maybe there will be MRL members ready to review your work, just saying you shouldn't count on that. 16:49:31 I am not asking for MRL members for review 16:49:40 Oh 16:49:49 ofrnxmr it's clear you're not going to donate a piconero to this since you don't see the value. maybe others do. I also think it's ridiculous you're charging the community $300K for a supposed atomic swap platform no one is using, but others see the value. maybe you don't have to be the arbiter of everything in monero? 16:50:02 I would probably ask monero-policy members for review, and probably pay them for their time from the CCS (if they wish) 16:50:26 Mamma mia guys its popcorn time 🍿 16:50:38 Charging the community >> 1 donor >> and i know at least 10 ppl in this room who use it 16:50:50 midipoet: fair enough. 16:51:05 What was ofrnxmr's rate for overseeing the bsx development? 16:51:16 ~20/hr 16:51:17 my ccs was primarily funded by one donor as well. did that stop you from calling me a scammer for 6 months straight? 16:51:29 You are a scammer 16:51:37 Your ccs was a lie 16:51:41 I knew it from the moment I saw the CCS in my RSS feed 16:51:44 you're a confirmed bad actor. maybe sit this one out. 16:51:59 confirmed? By whom? 16:52:04 by your behavior 16:52:13 Last i checked bsx in progress and docs site is up,pussy 16:52:15 By geonic lol 16:52:19 Your movie didnt win anything 16:52:29 Didnt even feature monero 16:53:44 did you forget that you were banned for your behavior? 16:53:51 lmfao kewbit has been writing for ages 16:54:00 come on you can do it 16:54:13 Idiot, i was banned for calling scott a bitch 16:54:18 how many people have been banned in all monero channels? that confirms you as a bad actor doesn't it 16:54:31 your first ban in this channel was for calling me a scammer 16:54:37 liar 16:54:39 and it was by sgp 16:54:48 It was for calling sgp barney 16:55:00 anyway, can you go back to working on the 2 CCSs you have running simultaneously? 16:55:17 you're wasting your donors' patience 16:55:31 This is part of 1 of them 16:56:09 And i'm wasting nobodies time. We have a release coming in the next couple days and i opened 2prs just before i came here 16:56:21 What do you contribute? at all? 16:56:37 again, you're not the arbiter of everything in monero 16:56:40 get off your high horse 16:56:52 Get on my high horse* 16:57:04 Lets go jousting 16:57:08 noise 16:57:42 again, you're not the arbiter of everything in monero <== neither are you, but you haven't figured that out yet. 16:58:33 * m-relay is really enjoying the virtuous circle of ego tampering statement 16:59:20 ofrnxmr -- ego tamper --> rottenwheel -- ego tamper --> geonic -- ego tamper --> ofrnxmr 17:00:52 anyone notice how this channel got a whole lot quieter once ofrn astroturfed his CCS proposals through 17:00:53 Lmao 17:01:00 and a bunch of alts disappeared 17:01:06 16:46 He's that one kid from the show recess 17:01:06 16:46 Randal or whatever 17:01:14 I remember when they were finishing each other's sentences 17:01:18 Lmfao 17:01:39 Plowsof can confirm that i am not alpha 17:01:55 sure 17:01:58 but plowsof is your alt 17:02:06 like anyone in this chat 17:02:58 kevino trying to not show its party challenge: 17:02:59 impossible 17:03:27 everyone is ofrn. Ceetee, dan, alpha, coffeeplease, siren, kevino, and my many other alts. I'm definitely forgetting a fee 17:03:30 (im obviously joking kevino nothing against you) 17:03:31 Few* 17:04:04 I lost the passsword to my alpharabius account /s 17:04:07 if its quiet here I can focus on other stuff 17:04:35 (stands up) I am oftnxmr 17:04:36 Whoops. Typed that from the wrong window 17:04:52 either irl or beginning to plan next Mk. But thank you very much for your concern geonic 17:06:02 Mk ? 17:07:58 monerokon 17:08:14 I wonder how all of ofrn's non-alts feel that he used them to stir shit up for a year+ at supposed CCS grifts only to push through a $300K grift himself 17:08:29 what a bunch of tools lmao 17:10:55 Yes, basicswap is a grift /s 17:11:03 And nobody uses it /s 17:11:29 https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1d6jfp7/basicswapdex_is_completely_unused_right/ 17:11:33 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/monero.social/YZPnMaJURolhnvVZMVpeqhhU 17:11:33 ^ I didn't post this 17:11:47 look at the top comment 17:12:14 This VERY user contacted me and we fixed their install 17:12:45 They use basicswap now. Their install had some misconfiguration 17:13:06 I'm sure they do 17:13:40 They arent in this room, but are in basicswap 17:13:54 so many people use basicswap that ofrn keeps track of every user individually 17:14:06 *Are `basicswap users` with us in the room right now ?* 17:14:22 lol 17:14:30 lets go kevino is one 17:14:38 checkmate geonic 17:14:39 alright later. got better shit to do than debate grifters. 17:15:10 will kewbir ever finish typing 🤔 17:15:12 will kewbit ever finish typing 🤔 17:15:16 better be good one 17:15:20 Monero-love also contributes to stressnet and uses basicswap 17:15:38 syntheticbird: I actually met the BasicSwap guy in person in Mexico City last year. listened to his talk 17:15:51 "the" basicswap guy 17:16:02 I'm not a fan that they market their platform as atomic swaps when it's actually not atomic 17:16:15 cangrejo: << this one? 17:16:25 It is atomic 💀 17:16:27 I think he means kap 17:16:57 and he had a general snake-oil-salesman vibe. the low (minimal) usage is not reassuring either. 17:17:04 Its not actually atomic << lmao 17:17:12 but hey, if it gets ofrn paid that's great 17:17:17 Very confused by a few of geonic's takes but I imagine there's a history here that I'm not up to date with 17:17:37 geonic what do you mean by not atomic? 17:17:42 no, geonic is a scammer 17:18:00 No history, just deflecting from his scam ccs to try to pull a "pot cslling kettle black" arguement 17:18:07 they have a few assets on their platform for which there's no atomic swaps available at all 17:18:23 Yeah, geonic. Please explain how its not atomic 17:18:33 no atomic interoperability. they have their intermediary token as far as I understand? 17:18:43 Says who??? There are active offers for every coin 17:18:48 You mean like xmr<->firo not being available..? 17:18:56 sure 17:19:03 No, particl coin is not needed for swaps 17:19:12 can you atomic swap between xmr and firo without an intermediary? 17:19:18 if you need an intermediary it's not an atomic swap 17:19:26 Soon 17:19:28 yes 17:19:29 There is no intermediary anything lol 17:19:58 ain't it ? sorry i was wrong 17:19:59 You cant swap xmr to firo because the swap protocol doesnt supoort swapping xmr to coins that dont have segwit 17:20:15 so why is it on BasicSwap ? 17:20:16 No you can't do xmr firo at all right now, theoretically would be possible with an intermediary but bsx does not have that 17:20:21 But were integrating bch's <> xmr atomic swap protocol _right now_ 17:20:21 and why are we calling it atomic swaps ? 17:20:30 Kap said Eth support is coming 17:20:43 Because you can swap firo to ltc/btc/ etc 17:20:51 There is no xmr firo 17:20:54 rottenwheel: this right here, legit . 17:21:02 felizduq: my bad, tx for clarifying 17:21:07 Its an atomic swap platform, not an xmr based atomic swap platform 17:21:21 btw BSX UI and ease of use is much better than haveno for crypto-crypto pairs 17:21:52 plowsof @plowsof:matrix.org what is he on about? 17:22:06 would advice anyone to use bsx for crypto-crypto swaps than haveno 17:22:19 why 17:22:21 no idea 17:22:40 ok so I just spent the last 30 mins or so writing a plan but it’s now exceeded my chat limit so I am going to blog it instead 17:22:51 LOL 17:22:56 is this 'can i atomic swap without needing to interact with / buy the particl coin? 17:23:09 Killing us with the suspense kewbit 17:23:22 answer is yes 17:23:26