00:01:10 But you already know this because this issue was raised here during your proposal. You refused a permissive license because that would have prevented you from going to movie awards. But that only benefited you. As a result your community funded movie to this day is not publicly accessible. 00:14:48 Not calling you anything here. I guess the people/person in charge of CCS saw marketing value so an exception was made. I just don't think this was fair nor it aligned with the culture (valuing freedom and privacy) within the community. 00:17:13 But hey CCS doesn't have much to do with the community anyway :) 00:21:36 Core Crowdfunding syatem 00:21:48 Didn't have the same ring to it 00:37:00 <321bob321:monero.social> Doesnt haveno have there own ccs? 00:51:37 Siren: I said the code itself. The only interaction between a file of code *and an external library* is the fact my file says `#include "other.h" ` somewhere in it. I can license my file MIT. The moment that is built with an external library? The joint product becomes GPL. 00:52:17 The only argument possible is that my file's usage of the API defined in the external lib counts as being derivative of the external lib. Google v Oracle found that fair use. 00:54:07 Also, the object file from compiling my file (which isn't actually linked to the ext lib, see how I said "unlinked form") can be MIT licensed. Once that's statically or dynamically linked, yeah, sure, GPL applies. I'm aware of their policies there. 00:55:20 The advantage to this is that someone can replace the GPL library with one which has an identical API. Doing so would produce a non-GPL joint product, without requesting your downstream project also relicense from GPL (as the downstream project itself would be MIT, solely compiled/distributed as GPL). 00:55:31 I believe this applies and either way having your code licensed as MIT in the repository and shipping the binary with a GPL notice is very confusing for the user. 00:55:54 No. Citing a file name doesn't apply. 00:56:09 *doesn't cause the GPL to apply. 00:56:50 Again, APIs are (or at least can be with precedent) fair use per Google v Oracle. 00:57:15 You're welcome to say it's confusing and not worthwhile. I'm saying it is possible and noting the implications of it. 00:57:41 Though also, NAL, NLA, so feel free to ignore me and go hire one to review this. 00:57:56 I don't see the use case and yeah 00:58:37 It allows creating a joint product which isn't GPL solely by replacing the GPL dependencies. 00:59:27 Ah you mean like having an interface that plugs with many libs that may or may not be GPL 00:59:30 Basically an API 00:59:35 If I build a GPL app on top of GPL dependencies, replacing the GPL dependencies doesn't change the license distributed under. 01:00:11 If I build a MIT app with GPL dependencies (binary licensed and distributed as GPL), then replacing the GPL dependencies produces an MIT app. 01:00:25 this is presumably exactly what tor is doing re: their PoW hash? 01:00:48 tor is MIT yet can optionally be built with a GPL dep causing a GPL bin? 01:01:25 That's referring to the claims above that the PoW hash they use is GPL and they have an --enable-gpl flag in the build process for it. 01:01:40 We were talking about proprietary binary releases 01:01:57 Not sure why you're bringing this up 01:03:51 Your answer was incomplete. 01:03:55 In the case of Tor it makes sense. And yeah in that way it does not violate GPL. 01:04:26 A project can have a more permissive license than its dependencies. Its the joint product which must respect all present license terms, some which may propagate to the contents of the entire product. 01:07:00 Beyond Tor as the example for dual-licensing (one for itself, one for its built form if including a GPL dep), your answer also wasn't comprehensive how BSD-2 apps can use BSD-3 dependencies without licensing themselves under the BSD-3 license. That's more of a nit with your answer than a complaint I'd raise in general though. 01:07:39 I honestly thought ut was better to not mention that detail as the core concept of copyleft itself wasn't understood 01:07:45 > <@kayabanerve:monero.social> Your answer was incomplete. 01:07:47 I honestly thought it was better to not mention that detail as the core concept of copyleft itself wasn't understood 01:09:02 This is unrelated to the case at hand and my answer is not meant to be the total documentation to how to pick and comply with all of these licenses clearly. 01:10:52 principledFossAdvocate also had incorrect takes on the GPL license, yet they seem to be a troll. Rucknium said the software must be made GPL, where *offered under the GPL license* may be more accurate. 01:12:17 So I'm sorry if you feel I was calling you out unfairly/specifically. I thought that message was incomplete in a list of incomplete/wrong messages I saw about licensing. I wanted to provide more details, and I did. I didn't provide more details on every other message due to them being trivial (such as a bs nit in yours I omitted), already covered by my reply to you, or by a troll. 01:12:50 Well the best way to learn about licensing is not to be spoonfed here, but rather the license text itself or other official documentation 01:12:57 My message above with other examples was just to be clear it wasn't personal at all. 01:13:49 I'm unsure it is unrelated. I believe I saw the accusation the Haveno UI built by kewbit must be GPL as it has GPL deps, and that broke the CCS's rules on licensing. 01:14:48 Technically, the UI code could be permissively licensed, solely distributed under the GPL (AGPL?). 01:15:30 That falls under a gray area regarding the rules and is probably worth discussing. However, given all of the other issues which seem to be present, I'm not calling for a debate on this at this time. 01:15:54 Hm no but there was a misunderstanding regarding the delivery of a milestone. I'm not sure if the project has GPL deps. 01:24:47 If this is regarding the mention of "permissive license" in the policy, I agree. I'm pretty sure there were previous proposals with strong copyleft. 02:00:37 Probably should be reworded to "free software license" (keep in mind NOT just "open-source"). As well as an explicit requirement for [free content](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_content) for creative works such as art. 02:27:12 siren: I see your point and would agree if the CCS had actually funded the creation of the film, but it didn’t. The movie already existed. It was for a marketing campaign and I provided receipts/ran it as transparently as possible. 02:27:22 What was open-source about Project Coral Reef for example? Or the monero sail, or any of the other marketing proposals? My movie is getting picked on because it’s an easy target, but there was nothing exceptional about that proposal. 02:34:02 my "take" on the tor gpl flag was that i dont know and that i would avoid shipping pow until i do know. Which part was i trolling? 02:34:48 ^ 02:35:03 ^ 02:35:18 ^ 02:42:01 Kewbit's haveno _app_ is AGPLv3. Haveno dex is also AGPLv3 02:45:21 Equi-x (tor pow) is GPLv3 iiuc 02:45:33 I haven't seen you before, you nick seems like it was tailor-made to this situation so I'd guess it's an alt trying to stir drama up on this topic (though again, I may just not have seen you before), you seemed generally hostile, and sorry, I misattributed someone else's message to you. I just reread the transcript to find the message I was thinking of. 02:45:47 ofrnxmf 02:46:23 So sorry, I shouldn't have called you out as an example of someone I didn't comment on yet also thought had a inaccuracy (while trying to show Siren it wasn't possible). 02:46:41 I changed my name playfully when jeffro made a comment about gpl being preferred by principled foss advocates 02:46:49 ... huh, the message I was thinking of was ofrnxmr's and you are in fact ofrnxmr:monero.social. 02:47:20 That i am 02:47:59 ... so client bug, and I didn't misattribute originally due to the message displaying as sent by pFA back when I read it, or I did misattribute it accidentally yet happen to be right anyways. 02:48:19 You claimed you can't build a proprietary work under the GPL. I would note it depends on the definition of proprietary. 02:48:39 There are companies which build and sell commercial GPL code. 02:49:00 The customers are entitled to a copy of the source under the GPL. That doesn't prevent their commercialization of the code. 02:49:26 goesnt gplv3 require all modifications be made public? 02:49:39 No 02:49:49 GPLv3 requires users be allowed to request a copy of the software. 02:50:06 Derivatives must also be GPLv3 licensed. 02:50:29 So if I fork X (GPL) into Y, Y must be offered under the GPL license. Users of Y are entitled to request a copy of the source code. 02:50:42 I would have no obligation to publicize my modifications and have no obligations to users of X however. 02:51:06 I can also charge to become a user of Y, and if a user distributes the code, terminate their user account (preventing access to future updates). 02:51:20 There's a company which famously sells patches to the Linux kernel. 02:51:48 u sure? (i'm not). I'm under the impression that ^^ is the case for v2, but not v3 02:52:00 They're dicks who have bragged about patching CVEs prior to their independent finding/filing. They keep vulnerabilities private in order to maintain a reason for people to pay them. 02:52:13 Pretty sure. Since the example I'm thinking of is Linux, this may be a v2 oddity? Again, NAL, NLA 02:53:10 Linux is v2 02:54:08 Also, caveats on my end GPL3 can have (always has?) compatibility carve-outs for otherwise acceptable licenses. 02:55:25 Also, you didn't originally claim GPLv3 doesn't allow proprietary derivative. You claimed GPL doesn't. 02:55:37 I may be wrong for saying this is also true for GPL3, but we have an example for GPL2 which is one of the GPLs :p 02:56:09 And yes, I know Linux is v2, which is why I'm saying my example justifies v2 yet doesn't justify v3 02:56:14 I'll pull up the license text now 02:58:14 > You may charge any price or no price for each copy that you convey, and you may offer support or warranty protection for a fee. 02:58:15 It does allow charging a price for conveyance of a copy. 02:58:43 Price doesnt make it proprietary 02:58:59 "free doesn't mean free beer" 02:59:01 And then section 5 on modifications requires notice, and the modified software be under the same license allowing anyone _with a copy_ to request access to the code. 03:00:01 I understand what free means in FOSS. I'm noting even though the code is free to modify to distribute, in practice, it can still be successfully commercialized. 03:00:04 which means that if the software is distributed, the source must be made available to the recipients (?) 03:00:27 The commercialization policies also don't make it free to distribute, 03:00:32 Distribution would presumably come with termination of the subscription 03:00:52 I dont think i implied that it couldn't be 03:00:54 Though again, that's about the cost of distribution, not about the legal ability. 03:01:33 my statement was that MIT allows you to never release the code (which i could be wrong about) 03:01:36 I thought your answer was incomplete to that angle. That's all I was chiming in with. 03:02:04 whereas bitmain would "have to" release the code running the riscv x5 miner 03:02:34 (xmrig is gpl) 03:03:50 I didn't say this originally for a variety of reasons, including how this nit falls under 'incomplete'. I only went over my full list of nits with the above conversation as I truly didn't want to make Siren feel singled out. I was concerned they did feel that way. 03:04:21 But that has also put me in the position of justifying my nits to everyone when I on purposely chose not to speak my nits originally due to how nitty they were :/ 03:05:23 Were all ooo. Siren is never alone 🧘‍♀️ 03:16:06 <321bob321:monero.social> You have nits? 03:16:16 <321bob321:monero.social> There is shampoo for that 03:34:11 <321bob321:monero.social> https://github.com/ssddanbrown/Open-Source-Confusion-Cases 03:34:11 <321bob321:monero.social> You might end up on here 04:33:32 <0xfffc:monero.social> XMR community, any suggestion for laptop for a dev who wants to work on XMR ( sometimes even on the move ) ? 04:42:22 Yup 04:42:54 https://www.qubes-os.org/hcl/#hardware-laptops 04:42:57 Enjoy 04:45:47 <0xfffc:monero.social> M4 is pretty fast. Might worth the wait. https://www.techradar.com/computing/apples-m4-macs-are-still-set-for-an-imminent-launch-in-the-coming-days Though I am not sure about getting into apple ecosystem! 04:47:06 because you said working on XMR I figured there is no compromise at on security but Mac are also pretty secure 04:47:18 I got an M2 they are decent 04:47:38 <0xfffc:monero.social> Yes, that is the default plan. Though for dev workstation/laptop I prefer it to be as fast as possible. 04:47:42 I’m sure m4 will be blazing 04:48:07 Learn flutter 04:48:58 <0xfffc:monero.social> considering the recent fiasco from Intel! I don't know it is wise to buy i7/i9 at all. 04:50:32 <0xfffc:monero.social> ? 05:51:06 <0xfffc:monero.social> https://github.com/open-quantum-safe/liboqs 06:46:13 geonic: the sail didn't result in a new creative work, it slapped assets that were already public domain/free on a piece of kevlar. Coral reef was about offering consultations (nothing to open source). They offered consultations for open source software integrating their cheap gateway. https://github.com/GloBee-Official. Anyone could view the sail pictures and benefit from stores 06:46:15 accepting Monero. These two proposals were direct ads for Monero. So, your proposal was exceptional. CCS paid for an ad in a movie that they cannot watch and perhaps it funded more marketing material for your movie but not for Monero. There were rejected proposals about integrating Monero into proprietary software by for-profit companies. Your proposal resembles those but was appr 06:46:17 oved. 07:52:56 Coral Reef wasn't consultations. It was a music sales platform 07:53:27 At least, that's how i understand it. I am not sure if the code for it was released (perhaps it was) 07:55:10 https://www.projectcoralreef.com 07:55:55 midipoet: no, there's a form to sign up for consultations and they list globee integrations. And there's no way to buy music on that website, it only links to other websites that once accepted xmr 07:56:38 Yeah, that was not how it started though 07:57:00 You think the community funded a consultation company? 07:57:29 midipoet: no, community paid for a campaign of some sorts 07:57:32 They funded a site/platform for music sales. I bought music from it 07:57:54 Then it makes this proposal even more useless 07:58:10 Well, it sold music 07:58:13 For xmr 07:58:19 But i don't see any code 07:58:36 That's the point 07:59:06 midipoet: check the GitHub link I sent 07:59:17 It didn't even list permissively licenced music, as far as i remember 07:59:24 The payment processer used is Globee 07:59:30 I know Globee 07:59:38 It doesn't matter if it sold proprietary music 07:59:50 The CCS wasn't for Globee. That was/is a separate company 08:00:13 Well it uses FOSS plugins of Globee 08:00:25 Sure, to process the payments 08:01:05 But the music sales platform was a core deliverable. 08:01:19 Perhaps the Globee infra was as well, i can't remember to be honest 08:01:40 You'd have to check the original CCS/FFS 08:01:58 I don't see a music sales platform anywhere and I only see outgoing links to other sites. I don't think Globee infra (perhaps the FOSS plugins was) was part of it. 08:02:07 I know. It's gone 08:02:11 I don't see a music sales platform anywhere and I only see outgoing links to other sites. I don't think Globee infra (perhaps the FOSS plugins were) was part of it. 08:02:15 But it was there 08:02:26 You can either believe me or not, it's totally up to you! 08:02:35 But i definitely bought music from it 08:04:50 I personally don't like any of these marketing proposals. 08:05:13 Ive never tested the listed stores. Alot of outdated info there which doesnt give me hope https://www.projectcoralreef.com/ 08:05:43 I don't think it's fair to call project coral reef a marketing proposal 08:05:48 I've checked those stores about a year ago actually and none accept Monero anymore. Don't bother. 08:05:51 It was a music sales platform 08:05:58 I can say it again, if you want? 08:06:21 "Due to the private nature of Monero, we are not able to offer any refunds" too private for refunds 08:06:57 midipoet: There goes another exception to the policy then. You can repeat yourself as much as you want. I don't see marketing value in it myself but geonic categorizes it as that so. 08:07:35 plowsof: we were too lazy to store a refund address in our backend and an endpoint to initiate a transfer 🚀 08:08:20 (protip: use moneropay) 08:08:39 I don't think geonic classifies coral reef as marketing. There is a full stop between his sentences. 08:09:08 But maybe he does, i shouldn't speak for him. 08:10:26 You should read the Locha Mesh one. 😂😂 08:11:01 We paid them to write documentation for XMR, documentation. No software deliverable or actual XMR support for the devices at all. 08:11:24 The premise was that the project was big in the bitcoin community so we'd get eyes on us in exchange. 🤣 08:11:50 The worst part of the story is that the project was abandoned and just few dozen devices were actually shipped. None with XMR support. 08:12:17 The all-time best was that Monero Tesla... Dear lord. 08:12:34 midipoet: what category coral reef falls under is irrelevant 08:13:07 Cancer 08:13:42 Very true. Only the fact that the music platform was not open source (as i understand it). Though, to be honest Globee might have been a deliverable, and that was (as i understand it). 08:13:48 One core team member was in favor. 😂 08:14:55 https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/randybrito-locha-mesh.html 08:15:06 150 XMR for documentation, no actionable deliverables. 08:15:16 Merged, funded and paid. Lol. 08:15:27 I mean CCS history is full of terrible proposals and literal corruption. It's not surprising that there is more lol. 08:15:37 That's why when a dwarf gets funded to go to ceremonies and awards you shouldn't feel bad. 08:15:58 Monero to the Oscars! 08:16:07 I see way more value in the movie than some of the other proposals, personally 08:16:23 Shit, XMR doesn't even appear on the film at all. 08:16:23 But others have different view, and that's ok too 08:16:40 There's one single scene of a bullshit coin with the XMR logo somewhere in the credits. 08:16:54 It's easy to flame war all the time, but at some point people grow up 08:17:10 Still, that doesn't make it right. We should have followed standard FOSS marketing strategies. Maybe people wouldn't have viewed us as cringe cryptobros in open source. 08:17:31 Follow standard FOSS marketing strategies? Oh that sounds a HOOT 08:17:37 God bless us 08:17:43 Who views us as cringe cryptobros in open source? 🤔 08:18:08 I don't care because I don't donate anymore, and people in my close circle don't anymore either. It's only sad observing this from outside. 08:18:36 I read the other day that crypto-bros are one of the most detested social groups these days. I think second only to the alt-right. 08:18:45 Go to FOSDEM or other conferences. I was with a friend on weed who asked every single stand (probably about 30) about Monero. Never had a positive reaction. 08:18:58 siren: you obviously do care, as you are talking about it 08:19:28 It was questions like "would you accept XMR for donations" or "wanna integrate?" 08:20:34 Europeans? Check. 08:20:35 FOSS neckbeards? Check. 08:20:37 What did you expect? 08:21:06 At DEFCON it was the laughing stock village, everyone was shit talking it into oblivion. 08:21:41 There's loads of misconceptions and misguided criticism, not going to fix that, unfortunately. 08:22:05 midipoet: I only care about Monero's sustainability as a project. 08:22:38 Europeans tend to be horrid statists... I'd expect them to stray more into the drug, fraud, crime digital currency camp. 08:23:13 Americans tend to lean more into the... that shit is fake, snake oil, can't be true, it's not anonymous camp. 08:24:07 Why would I want to accept money that is used to avoid paying taxes? Who's gonna pave the roads??? 08:24:11 :) 08:25:32 Nobody would pave the roads is the answer! 08:25:33 Honestly, if all that money was spent in marketing Monero the right way by participating in these cons etc. (you know, alongside normal non-crypto projects) I don't think it would be this bad. CCS is pushed as something "official" and it being a dumpster fire is not good. 08:25:56 There ain't nobody paving the country roads where i live, i tell you that! 08:26:18 You advertise Monero as a "privacy respecting, low fee, fast payment technology" to others then. 08:26:30 siren: sure you already ostracised the one proper contact we have for Defcon 08:26:33 It's really not that hard 08:26:59 Oh no no no no, count me out on that endeavor. I'm not convincing FLOSS neckbeards or infosec people about monero. Pass. 08:27:07 Previously we made Monero themed badges for communities/villages there. Not any more that's for sure 08:27:20 Statists can keep being statists, hackers can keep being hackers. Someone else's job. 08:28:10 Yeah, made by the guy who simply dropped radio silent once the bridge to keep sucking money went dry... 08:28:11 Surprise. 08:28:39 midipoet: I wouldn't call it proper, I think I might know who you're talking about but I don't remember commenting about defcon anywhere. And no I did not ostracize anyone. 08:28:54 Oh, according to his version you 'ostracized' him. 🤣 08:29:30 It's 2024 and we only got bullshit paper wallets and Kastelo? Fine, thank you. 08:30:00 Another one that got paid to go touring. Lol. 08:30:54 You don't need badges or wallets. Grab a bunch of stickers or other basic merch. What's more important is talking to others. 08:30:56 You don't need badges or wallets. Grab a bunch of stickers or other basic merch. What's more important is talking to others. 08:32:13 who is gonna pay for the talking tours, siren? 08:32:23 Rotten says that's not allowed 08:32:38 God forbid what ofrnxmr will say about the plan 08:32:56 Then why are you directing this question at me? I am working towards getting EU to fund TE as a youth project. 08:33:23 Cause you mentioned talking! 08:33:56 And where did you read that I said it's not allowed? 08:34:17 And merch. Last i saw, there was zero merch at MoneroKon (unless i am mistaken?) everyone talked about how easy it was to get, and then there was hardly any 08:34:39 But wait, there was stickers!! 08:34:42 Damn people showing words in my mouth today lol 08:34:49 Damn people shoving words in my mouth today lol 08:35:01 midipoet: you're mistaken in that case 08:35:09 I'm drinking from it rn 08:35:11 Monero, stickering it's way to mainstream one telephone pole at a time 08:35:35