07:05:48 wow, so I felt also in the Bus back home. Thank you very much to all donors! 07:08:54 What a cool day, even with so many people on one place :) 08:04:15 nioCat: 0.023071919109 XMR extra https://github.com/plowsof/scrape_ccs_fr/commit/a61de768d74f9cefc00ee593c3b234bfeabda339#diff-b335630551682c19a781afebcf4d07bf978fb1f8ac04c6bf87428ed5106870f5R42 08:18:50 bridge kicked around 09:01:58 🌉 09:02:55 the XMRsigner ccs from vthor was funded https://libera.monerologs.net/monero-community/20241117#c460795 09:10:00 <321bob321:monero.social> Not true unless nioc says it 09:16:06 Seems we finally managed to attract somebody with plenty XMR for the XMRSigner, the CCS started with a high number of quite small donations 09:22:14 <321bob321:monero.social> Probably core 09:22:20 <321bob321:monero.social> We’ll never know 10:24:18 Yeah, I wonder who was the hidden hand... 👀👀 10:24:36 I heard his nym starts with an R... 10:24:47 Romantic Abacus? 🤔 11:13:57 <321bob321:monero.social> Wtf is cupcake 11:14:39 Cuprate x CakeW => CupCake 11:14:59 Its not edible 11:15:47 What you mean!? 11:16:01 <321bob321:monero.social> Smokable? 11:17:33 Would you smoke a cupcake!? 11:20:37 You wouldn't download a cupcake... 11:22:56 <321bob321:monero.social> No… but you can sniff it 11:23:26 Ok zoomer. 11:23:32 Kinky. 11:44:46 You wouldn't download a ... 12:04:40 the reddit thread announcing cupcake (the companion app to cakewallet which is for offline signing of transactions, like how ANONERO has ANON and NERO) https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1gt5i21/cake_wallet_v4210_bringing_monero_airgapped/ 12:08:40 https://redlib.zaggy.nl/r/Monero/comments/1gt5i21/cake_wallet_v4210_bringing_monero_airgapped/ 12:09:01 file image.png too big to download (1152825 > allowed size: 1000000) 12:09:02 image.png 12:21:59 Is this better than a paper wallet? 12:27:31 Maybe? 12:32:21 In the event someone hacks or gains access to the phone, won't they still be able to get the seed phrase? 12:33:09 In case of a paper wallet, it doesn't matter if we lose our phone. 12:34:31 GLOCK ! 12:42:35 If you have your seedphrase on your phone, then it's a hotwallet, no matter if you write down your seedphrase, an attacker could still steal your money because it's also on your phone. 12:42:36 If you have large amounts, just get a hardware wallet like Trezor and write down the seed phrase, but for small amounts a hotwallet is enough. 12:47:13 I don't have large amounts but all I have is crypto. I am going to store my seed phrases in password protected pdf files and delete all wallet apps from my phone and laptop. Will only keep some for spending on my phone. 12:47:55 Write it down on paper.. 12:49:19 Lost like 300$ some years ago because i was too lazy to write it down, next day.. computer crashed and password-manager database was corrupted.. So better write on paper 12:52:10 If I write them on paper, I will have to find a way to jumble up the words. 12:54:23 also protect from fire and loss and...... 12:54:53 If the doomsday scenario plays out and governments begin to collapse, theives will target people who are known to own crypto currency. 12:56:42 Then do non-kyc, hide the paper well, and get a gun. 12:57:01 Yes an Steel Wallet is better then Paper 12:57:12 I am a non-violent vegan. No question of harming anyone. 12:57:28 Lol 12:57:52 How about password protected pdf stored on a memory stick? 13:01:13 If the stick gets corrupted, damaged? Or you forget your password? 13:03:34 Maybe we need to come up with a multi-sig solution where a second key is stored on a remote server protected by a password. 13:03:54 Lost some coins years ago because i was too lazy to write it down, next day.. computer crashed and password-manager database was corrupted.. So better write on paper 13:04:16 > <@themisplacedphilosopher:matrix.org> In case of a paper wallet, it doesn't matter if we lose our phone. 13:04:18 If you have your seedphrase on your phone, then it's a hotwallet, no matter if you write down your seedphrase, an attacker could still steal your money because it's also on your phone. 13:04:20 If you have large amounts, just get a hardware wallet and write down the seed phrase, but for small amounts a hotwallet is enough. 13:06:27 kayabanerve: Thanks for the elaborate answer! <= kayabanerve: Coming back to this, what can the Monero community do to aid or speed up the process? 13:06:47 There are significant benefits to the Monero community from having Serai live, hence 13:07:48 Multisig is not so easy, you need to safe 3 seeds and 3 extended public keys, if you loose one of the seed and you do not have the Wallet file or all 3 xPubs, the coins are lost. 13:09:08 If you want, you could use the bip39-passphrase feature, then you can write down your seed and your passphrase (stored seperately) 13:09:09 Yes 13:18:17 XMR: themisplacedphilosopher: Monero 16:29:50 https://kuno.anne.media/fundraiser/olm1/ 16:42:40 shortwavesurfer2009 what did i just read 16:43:46 Its a kuno for ross (vik and doug) i just found it 16:49:43 surely they wrote him a letter and have his blessing in writing 16:50:18 "The funds and painting will be presented to Ross during an event hosted by Cake Wallet and Monerotopia" 16:52:38 I am confirming whether its legit 16:53:09 Come to think of it, I probably should have confirmed that before posting it. 16:54:09 It says contact verified. But I still should have done the work myself. 16:54:10 100 xmr is approx 15k, i thinkedward snowden charges 20kusd per appearence 16:55:21 Ross has confirmed attendance to the event ? 16:56:33 Bet the first thing Ross wants to do is get consumed and then subsumed by the whole cryptocurrency ecosystem immediately on release. 16:56:49 What more could a man want? 16:56:57 indeed 16:57:12 stand on stage infront of an audience, and accept a giant cheque for 15kusd and an NFT 16:57:27 not usd, but in Monero 16:57:37 Make him smoke a blunt as well, so everyone can cheer 16:57:47 \o/ you did it Ross! 16:57:51 lol 17:07:03 this tweet from the artist tagging doug and vik https://x.com/MgkMshrmBrkfst/status/1857974202072182843 17:07:43 "After coordinating with @DouglasTuman and @vikrantnyc, we have launched a freedom fund for the release of @RealRossU!" 17:08:35 didnt see any confirmation from vik/doug there though 17:10:20 I have a secure channel with Doug and have asked for confirmation. 17:10:34 cc vik (Cake) 17:11:35 kuno admins on telegram say its legit 17:13:48 and vik liked it on twitters, allegedly 17:27:20 the repost from vik shortwavesurger2009 https://x.com/MgkMshrmBrkfst/status/1857974202072182843 17:27:30 shortwavesurfer2009 17:28:25 Okay, thats good 17:52:26 https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/518 17:53:04 dEBRUYNE: There's that ^ 17:54:16 But there's not more the Monero community can do. Individuals in it, if qualified developers, can pitch in to either Serai or my slew of volunteer work regarding FCMP++s (my paid work is mine, I do a lot outside the scope of my CCS I wouldn't mind delegating). 17:54:37 That requires we gave more developers and more time which is always in short supply. 17:55:06 We can also find further qualified, affordable auditing talent. That'd be great. 18:07:32 150k for an audit by one researcher (surae) seems steep. as far as I remember, we've gotten multiple audits in the past for a similar price 18:08:22 "After the audit, the plan is to transfer monero-serai into the newly created monero-oxide organization (head by myself and boog900 from Cuprate)." <= will this new org collect any serai rewards? how will it exercise control over the network? kayabanerve 18:09:07 geonic: it isn't an audit by one researcher. It's a formalization, security proofs, and audit by a researcher and an audit by a developer. 18:09:42 monero-oxide has no relation to Serai, as the monero-serai lib also doesn't other than origin. 18:10:03 (hence the name. It's the Serai-developed monero lib) 18:12:43 I guess I'm confused because the only milestone in the CCS is the audit and it further states "The audit will be done by Cypher Stack (their quoted amount being the amount requested)." 18:14:06 The only milestone is the singular upfront payment, as prior done with CS, covering volatility. 18:14:47 > This CCS is to fund the formalization of the implemented CLSAG multisig protocol (already outlined), provide the necessary security proofs (derived from FROST), and audit monero-[serai, wallet]. The audit will be done by Cypher Stack (their quoted amount being the amount requested). The one milestone is to be paid directly, immediately, and in full, to Cypher Stack for their work. 18:15:26 The sentence prior to the sentence you quote is the full scope of the proposal. 18:16:45 I include formalization/security proofs under audit as yes, verifying the protocol I inplemented was secure (highly likely IMO, an opinion based on my cryptographic experience) requires the on-paper security proofs for it. 18:17:27 **under audit in the very brief milestone text. 18:18:33 are these additional tasks also going to be completed by Cypher Stack? 18:20:34 All of this will be done by Cypher Stack under this CCS. 18:20:47 Oh. I see how I wrote that confusingly. I'm sorry. You're the first to note that. 18:21:26 I'll make the change for clarity when I'm back at my computer. 18:23:16 ok, thanks. it seems to me that it would be best to split the implementation and the proofs from the audit, since I assume Cypher Stack's only(?) researcher, Brandon Goodell, will be involved at all steps regardless and it's hard to audit your own work. 18:24:17 The audit is to verify the code matches the formalization with security proofs. There's no CoI there. 18:24:55 *The relevant part of the audit will verify the code... 18:25:10 The entire audit is not just about this one topic. 18:25:54 wouldn't it be better to have an auditor who hasn't been involved with the formalization and security proofs? 18:26:01 I'll also further clarify it isn't just that there's a CoI but they become ygr preferred party. 18:26:04 No. 18:26:09 *the preferred party 18:26:40 **it just that there's not a CoI 18:28:28 You need an independent entity to perform audits/review of work. I need an auditor to audit my work. Goodell can be the auditor for my work. 18:29:13 If Goodell does security proofs, they'd be ineligible to review their own security proofs. They are eligible for auditing my work matches their security proofs as that assumes the validity of their security proofs and solely focuses on the formalization. 18:29:38 If we had a distinct auditor review my impl, it'd be the exact same. They'd assume valid the formalization and proofs and check if my code matches. 18:29:57 *matches the formalization, they'd never bother with the proofs. 18:30:47 A distinct auditor would need time to read the FROSTy CLSAG formalization however and understand the intricacies. Goodell will already know it and understand it in even greater depth than written. That's why they're preferable. 18:31:18 There is the question raised of if the security proofs should be reviewed. I'd argue this a simple scheme which quite quickly collapsed back to FROST (extensive literature) and note it's not likely to be worthwhile. 18:32:00 I'll also note Goodell is already serving in somewhat a review capacity as I already did the design of such a scheme. As they formalize it, they'll inherently check if what I already did was sane or if adjustments are needed. 18:33:17 Sorry, my typo correction had a typo. Restating entirely: 18:33:18 > I'll also further clarify it isn't just that there's not a CoI but they become the preferred party. 18:35:56 I don't think there's a conflict of interest, I would just have less confidence in the audit if the same team is tasked with development 18:36:21 an auditor should be a fresh pair of eyes IMO. have we had a case before where we've paid a firm to audit and develop at the same time? 18:51:53 The same team wouldn't be tasked with development? 18:52:38 This is my work I developed over years. Cypher Stack is doing formalization and security proofs for FROSTy CLSAG before auditing my impl matches their formalization (ignoring the rest of the audit scope). 18:52:54 This would be if Benedikt Bünz audited Aaron's BP impl. 18:53:30 If they were tasked with dev and auditing, there would be a CoI and they'd be unable to do their jobs meaningfully. They aren't being tasked with dev however. 19:11:49 To be exceptionally clear: Cypher Stack is not expected to write a single line of code nor are they expected to review any of their own work output. 20:03:05 thanks for clarifying. is a 5% markup necessary if this is all being paid upfront? if it is, what happens if the price fluctuation is in the upward direction? 20:03:44 There isn't a 5% markup. 20:04:15 I estimated this at 750-1000 XMR and got community consensus this was worthehile off that estimate. 20:04:25 The quote was delivered a few days ago and was 1050 XMR. That's 5% off the high end of my estimate. 20:04:58 ah, I misunderstood what you meant here: "The final number, 1050, is 5% more and can be chalked up to price fluctuations." 20:05:06 my bad 20:05:10 I'm noting that while the community came to consensus on this, the actual price is slightly higher than the estimated price. 20:05:31 Yes, Monero was frequently over 160 a month ago and was under 150 when the quote was delivered. 20:06:20 I think it's now 153 but I'd rather not ask Diego to keep updating on an hourly basis. The fact it's momentarily increased doesn't mean it won't go back down to 148 and need to be raised again. 20:06:42 copy. can you also clarify this comment "monero-oxide has no relation to Serai, as the monero-serai lib also doesn't other than origin." 20:06:49 what will monero-oxide do? 20:07:56 Steward the monero-serai lib, rebranded to monero-oxide. 20:08:23 monero-serai isn't Serai specific at all. It doesn't even have the custom address format I wrote. 20:08:51 Yet people believe monero-serai is Serai-specific because it has Serai in the name. 20:09:04 No, it was just built under Serai and is stewarded by it. 20:09:28 Moving to monero-oxide just makes it more neutral (no longer stewarded by Serai) and clarifies its position in the ecosystem 20:09:42 do you see this CCS as a contribution towards the Serai project? 20:10:22 monero-wallet also isn't Serai-specific but it supports an additional address type and obviously, all of the new multisig protocol. 20:11:11 Yes and no. I've prior said Serai isn't a Monero project and has raised no funds from the Monero community. I'd now say Serai isn't a Monero project yet the Monero community did fund the audit of our public-good Monero libraries. 20:11:50 It obviously furthers Serai. I wouldn't say anything as blanket as "no funds". I would be specific as to the nature of the support. 20:12:26 I also think this makes sense even without Serai and this shouldn't be voted on dependent on 'Serai needing it'. 20:13:06 Serai doesn't need Cuprate, yet Cuprate was funded by the CCS. Cuprate uses monero-serai internally. 20:13:25 ok, was asking because the website says "Serai has also never taken funding from the Monero community." I'm sure you'll change that 20:13:41 where can I read more about the serai token's distribution? 20:14:23 It's clear monero-serai is a public good allowing naturally interacting with Monero from Rust. 20:14:42 geonic: What page is that? I'm guessing the blog post on not being a Monero project. 20:14:47 yes 20:15:10 *and not just interacting with Monero, yet independently verifying it and contributing to the security of the network. 20:15:27 monero-wallet has a longer argument for it being a public good which I can get into if requested. 20:15:44 I'd say any open source project is a public good 20:16:10 I'd add a header noting it's out of date and linking to a blog post of the audits being funded by the Monero community. 20:16:24 agreed, but I wouldn't say the Serai-specific code is a public good. 20:16:32 Technically it is, but eh. 20:16:38 awesome re the header 20:17:39 Also, clarification, myself and Serai still don't receive funding from this. We lose an expense in practice increasing our budget. 20:17:54 But I don't receive the sole milestone and I don't get a referral fee. 20:18:29 curious about the token distribution? is there a premine/dev tax? will there be some org/person/entity that collects portions of the block reward? 20:19:14 Regarding the SRI coin, I'd argue it doesn't matter and to ask me in a Serai channel. I do understand it does matter as it's scummy to ask Monero for funding if I get 90% of the supply and VCs get the other 10%. In that case, we should fund our own audits, even if of public goods. 20:19:31 yes, that's why I'm asking. 20:19:45 What I'll say is it's no premine/no ICO/no dev fund. I don't get a single coin except if I participate in open, on-chain mechanisms after the network launches. 20:20:13 are there VCs or other investors involved? 20:20:28 The only hardcoded address are the genesis validators who receive emissions for being validators. I will not be one of them. Only Cake has been publicly stated as one. 20:20:53 can anyone become a genesis validator? 20:20:57 No VCs, no investors, no prior donations, though a couple donation offers on the table (one I expect to go through in a month, one I don't expect to go through). 20:21:30 No, it's a trusted position. 20:22:11 I'd kick further such discussions, since I've already said I won't be one and the only entity stated to be one eventually is a third party to this discussion, to a Serai room. 20:26:42 Eh. I'll also clarify Cypher Stack hasn't privately been scheduled in as one. I can't remember if I ever discussed the topic with Diego. I may have a year to two years ago. It wouldn't have resolved to some firm agreement, if there even was a conversation. 20:28:11 will these genesis validators receive emissions in perpetuity or only during launch? how many of them are there? 20:30:26 They receive emissions as validators. Becoming a validator is an open process. There just has to be some at the start. 20:31:02 They earn emissions as long as they actively run validators as any validator does, for their operation and maintenance of the validator infrastructure. 20:31:38 I have no idea how many there'll be. I'd hope 11. I don't know if when the time comes, 11 trustworthy people will step up and come together. 20:36:02 copy. ty! 20:55:10 I'll mention one more thing. It's probably best that the people we're getting quotes from don't know what our maximum spend is. As we saw here, the quote was literally at the threshold of what was deemed acceptable. In cases where the vendors are likely to be in the channels, we're likely to get better rates if we ask for a quote first and go from 20:55:10 there. 21:02:43 That isn't exactly what happened, though I hear you in general. 21:03:08 I was given partial quotes for the scope of work prior to entering MRL/MC discussions. 21:03:46 geonic: im looking to spend between 800-1200 on a new car. i have the funds to stretch to 2000 if you show me something i really like.. you'd have me walking out of there with a private lease for 5 years , 400 a month, lamb to the slaughter! 21:04:23 I extrapolated from the partial quotes an estimate range. Yes, that did give Diego information of what would be fine, but it only gave them a baseline. If they asked 1200 XMR, I'd be back with the community or I'd look at chipping in the difference myself. 21:04:52 They didn't quote 1200. They quoted a USD amount I'm sure if I was privy the hours on, it'd make sense, built on top the partial quotes I already had. 21:05:28 It happened to convert to 1050 XMR on day of delivery and I confirmed that's fine to use as THE quote moving forward. 21:06:42 ignore my amounts there, i was just light heartily giving an example of telling a salesmen my exact budgets ^^ 21:09:37 Similar concerns existed with Veridise but we've been hourly with them at a rate consistent since our very early discussions. 21:15:42 the estimate of 750-1000 was given on october 12th where the price of monero was 150.430 giving a usd range of 112822.5 ~ 150430 . as of now 1050 xmr is 168053.31 usd. 21:16:03 its hard to judge rates when we're playing the 1xmr=1xmr game 21:16:45 which is perfectly fine of course, 750-1000 was deemed OK 21:17:35 Oh, we're up from when it initially was? Sorry, that's absolutely my bad. 21:18:35 I pulled up the price history on Coin Gecko for the past month when I made my comment on past pricing and left it at that. 21:18:42 one of the moving averages would lower the price to make it fall within the range kayabanerve , wouldnt worry 21:19:50 Sep 28 - Oct 19 we fell from 160. That means a month ago it was high 150 and the spot of Oct 12 was lower 21:20:24 Also 10% up over this weekend (I got the quote end of last, it just took me time to open the PR on GitLab) 21:22:32 I'll repeat I did consider asking Diego to update given my 3 day delay, and the price increase, and explicitly decided not to because it could just as easily go back down tomorrow and I don't believe we should constantly ask for updates. The XMR pricing creates a volatility risk and since I confirmed the quote from them, that's been in their favor, but it could have gone either way and still can. 21:29:05 understandable. previously there was a slight reduction if funds where released immediately. i assume this is already priced in as its stated in the proposal 21:29:34 rather than a 5% bump 21:30:44 it could take 1 hour... 1 week.. 1 month to to obtain, we can never be sure, so again, understandable 21:34:18 for reference, a 10% buffer was removed here as funds where to be released in full early https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/443/diffs?diff_id=6686&start_sha=3552ae79c069a7efb7d98a5a4b5892b9213aa2c7 21:39:00 Would they still do it for the same xmr if it crashed 50% after funding? 21:39:42 I think Diego would declare bankruptcy before violating a contract. 21:39:59 That sounds reassuring enough for me 21:40:19 They may open a donation CCS to not have to declare bankruptcy (which would mean they wouldn't complete the work) though :p 21:40:55 plowsof: I didn't add a buffer for volatility and I don't believe Diego did but you can ask them for the breakdown. 21:41:10 I did USD -> XMR based on spot and confirmed with Diego the exchange rate. 21:41:37 The 5% over estimate is because Monero had a low spot price when I got the quote a few days ago. It was less than $150. 21:41:45 It wasn't explicitly to handle volatility. 21:43:25 If there was a volatility buffer to be added now, it'd be on top the quote. The quote was 1050 XMR. The fact that's 5% over my estimate is due my estimate being wrong and XMR price fluctuations at the exact time I finalized the quote. 21:45:02 "I think Diego would declare bankruptcy before violating a contract." <= you probably weren't around when he threatened the community that he'd stop working with us if we didn't pony up after a price drop 21:45:27 I don't recall that. I do recall they misquoted me and honored their misquote. 21:45:52 So my experience is them standing by their quotes even if at a loss. 21:47:11 *I don't know of that 21:47:43 have CypherStack provided any delivery estimates? 21:48:22 kayabanerve: https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/nxkyoi/update_on_triptych_multisig_proposal/ 21:48:50 "In addition, as noted inside the proposal, the price of Monero was $350. We are now (at time of writing) at $250. We are considering opening a second proposal towards the end of the work to be done to make up the difference, as the fall is quite detrimental to our ability to do future research." 21:50:01 plowsof: 15 weeks though I'd assume that's potentially going to be held up by other work such as FCMP++s 21:52:58 geonic: Ugh, I have seen this before. I'll note I did caveat they may open donations for the difference but I'd expect them to honor the contract. What happened in this historical example? They didn't do a CCS, delivered the work and did a CCS...? 21:54:13 the funds where not given upfront there, so the volatility risk won't be so catastrophic 21:54:13 Because this here is near the end of the work, opening a follow up CCS. That isn't explicitly threatening work output dependent on the follow up CCS (though since it isn't explicitly after the fact, potentially makes work output so dependent). 21:54:47 I'll also note that for this instance ^ 21:55:00 thanks for sharing the estimate 21:55:29 If Diego ended up biting the difference three years ago, I hear your complaints about what happened there at the time, but I don't think it impacts my commentary now geonic. 22:00:44 kayabanerve: he decided not to open a new proposal https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/nxkyoi/comment/h1kn4ml/ 22:02:07 yes I think that was a teachable moment for everyone 22:05:53 "But, since I'll be down money, I may focus efforts on other contracts that are a bit more stable for a while, while I rebuild my funds to a point where I can take on more risky and volatile projects like Monero again, which means a pause in XMR research work." 22:06:36 miss the good old days when we were volatile :D 22:22:49 Hello everyone. 22:22:50 Could someone help me start mining Monero and advise me on the best hardware to buy to get good speed 22:25:57 i would ask in #xmrmine:matrix.org , however, i'd recommend you (unsurprisingly) show some Proof Of Work - share with them what you have found during your initial research.. hardware you currently have.. what are your expectations / motivations for mining etc. there are calculators online to show estimates of profits for a given hardware setup 22:32:19 I did the work 22:32:39 So if actions speak louder than words, than I had them get the work done. 22:44:30 sgp: max donatoin is 5k @ magic grants :P 22:47:40 oh, i dont see the restriction anymore 22:49:18 ok confirmed 5k or less, luigi would have to make 2 separate transactions for https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/449#note_27273 , not the end of the world 22:52:07